Thus, I'd like to propose that Taladan wizardry places a much greater stress on the master/apprentice relationship than the Ansalonian wizards do. By that I mean that the master is ultimately responsible for ensuring that the student stays within the bounds. If he turns into a renegade the master must then ultimately slay him. If the master is deceased, then it is the responsibility of brother apprentices to the renegade, his student, or other wandering mages in the rare cases where he has outlived/slain all who know him personally.
It isn't as neat and organized as the conclave, but I think it would work well enough, and make sure that the magical tradition on the two continents have a family resemblence, even if they aren't the same beast.
Since there aren't any towers (that I'm aware of - the only stuff about Taladas that I know of I've picked up from this board), then presumably younger mages do have to learn from older mages, so it would make the theory of their master/apprentice relationship a good base. However, I don't think it could really replace the organisation of the Towers, so it would be informal, not extra stress on master/apprentice, but have the absence of anything else. None of that going around killing people stuff. If you wanted to learn black magic, find a black mage to teach you. If you wanted to learn white magic, pray you don't meet a black mage.
The Horizon
- Consists of the three .true. leaders of the Taladas wizards (called the White, Red, and Black View).
- Has the power to veto or override any decision made by the Moons leaders.
- Decides the Moons leaders.
- Each Horizon leader has one Hand, a person who publicly appears to have been chosen by one of the three Moons leaders as their right hand, but who really only monitors the Moons leader and his actions and decisions, and reports to his View.
- Only the three leaders of the Rising Moons know of the existance of the Horizon, even the Ansalonian WoHS has no knowledge of them (but some members of the Conclave have been getting suspicious and are trying to infiltrate the Shards).
- The Horizon leaves the training, and formal control, of the wizards on Taladas to the Rising Moons, while working on their own secret agendas.
- There is a rumor among the current Rising Moons leaders that Fistandantilus was once the Black View.
The Hands
- The three assistans of the Horizon (called the White, Red and Black Hand)
- Decide the Shards.
- Publicly the assistants of the three Moons leaders.
- The Hands replace the Horizon members who selected them once those members resign or die. Traditionally, White Views never retire (as they become old they merely allow more and more control to the White Hand, so most of the time there are in a way two White Views), Red Views resign after their 75th birthday (unless reasons of health force them out sooner), and Black Views end up dead by the actions of their Black Hand (a relationship a la the Star Wars Sith).
- Each Hand has a slew of operatives (no, they are not called Fingers), known as the White, Red and Black Webs.
The Webs
- The White, Red and Black Web are the agents of the Hands.
- A Web member is called a Strand.
- Publicly the Webs are the policing force of the three Rising Moons leaders.
The Rising Moons
- Divided into the three Moons.
- Rising Moons leaders rarely, if ever, meet Horizon members (and even then the identities of the Views are hidden), normally the orders they receive arrive through the Hands.
- The organization that the WoHS recognize as the controllers of the Taladas wizards.
- The public leadership of the Taladas wizards.
- The three leaders of the Moons can veto any decision made by the other Moons members.
- The twelve non-leader members, the Shards, mostly spend their time taking care of the bureaucracy of the Rising Moons.
- The Shards view themselves to be mere administrators, and advisors to the Moons leaders, and mostly have no suspicions as to whether the Moons leaders have any actual power (and on mundane everyday matters the Moons leaders really are the deciders, as the Views or their Hands would never waste time on trivialities).
The White Moons
- Consists of five wizards who publicly represent the leadership of the white Taladas wizards.
- One of the five is the formal leader of the Taladas white robes known as The Justice (who is really only a puppet of the White View and his Hand).
- The other four are known as White Shards.
The Red Moons
- Consists of five wizards who publicly represent the leadership of the red Taladas wizards.
- One of the five is the formal leader of the Taladas red robes known as The Balance (who is really only a puppet of the Red View and his Hand).
- The other four are known as Red Shards.
The Black Moons
- Consists of five wizards who publicly represent the leadership of the black Taladas wizards.
- One of the five is the formal leader of the Taladas black robes known as The Control (who is really only a puppet of the Black View and his Hand).
- The other four are known as Black Shards.
The Master Wizards
- Any wizard who is no longer an apprentice (or doesn't belong to one of the organizations above) is called a Master Wizard.
- Many Master Wizards own magic schools.
- If a Master Wizard takes a Wizard Apprentice, he has to report it to the Rising Moons (and has to get their approval).
Wizard Apprentices
- Mages being taught by a Master Wizard or studying in a magic school.
Hopefuls
- Mages seeking to become a wizard apprentice.
Renegades
- Either self-taught mages, or wizards who have been taught by a Master Wizard without the knowledge or approval of the Rising Moons.
- While the Rising Moons consider WoHS members on Taladas to be renegades, the WoHS are mostly left alone, as long as the members stay out of the way of Rising Moons business (the Webs are attempting to monitor all WoHS activity on Krynn and are in the process of infiltrating the Conclave).
Originally posted by jonesy
- Only the three leaders of the Rising Moons know of the existance of the Horizon, even the Ansalonian WoHS has no knowledge of them.
Well of course the Hands know, and most of the senior Webs members.
Edit:
...and, there are no towers, I have Taladas wizards use manors and estates.
The Master Wizard is your everyday regular wizard type. The 'normal' people outside the wizardly circles rarely see any ranks used (and apart from the apprentice-wizard axiom wouldn't even know them), and the Rising Moons members are just viewed as senior wizards. Master Wizards working for organizations or Taladan governments use their organizatorial rank in public.
No, nothing like this has happened on Taladas.
Ferratus the idea of a master and apprentice is a cool idea but I would not use the idea "bounds." On Taladas, magic is as unrestrained as it is on any other world, like Faeurn for instance. If a bad wizard (not necesarily a black robe) is terrorizing the land "maybe" a good wizard would be willing to help stop him.
All magic-users on Taladas would be considered renegades by the WoHS if they knew about them.
Now, the way I would play Taladas is this. Ansalon has the WoHS, Taladas has a massive amount of Sorcerors.
You even have wizards, the Cha'asi mages, who are more like the Fifth age sorcerors in that they have spells that limited to mineral, plant and animal affecting effects. They have an alterantion of the leech item feat as an ability, they use the inner power of an item and refocus, then return it to the item in order to make magical items.
Originally posted by darthsylver
You even have wizards, the Cha'asi mages, who are more like the Fifth age sorcerors in that they have spells that limited to mineral, plant and animal affecting effects. They have an alterantion of the leech item feat as an ability, they use the inner power of an item and refocus, then return it to the item in order to make magical items.
I've felt as well that the Cha'asi mages sounded very similar to sorcerers and mystics. I was considering the idea of a Cha'asi Channeler prestige class at one point.
The problem, though, lies in history, as the cha'asi mages were around prior to the Age of Mortals.
Originally posted by themind
Wow Jonesy. Thats a well thought out system for Wizards in Taladas. Maybe I'll use it in my campaign, it you dont mind that is.
Of course I don't mind.
It all boils down to one of my long, very long-winded complaints, not enough Taldas info.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Dragonhelm, who says they are gone.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying (or trying to say).
As cha'asi mages are around prior to the Age of Mortals, the magic they use could not be sorcery or mysticism. Perhaps they switched to sorcery and mysticism in the Age of Mortals.
I did not mean to say that they are no longer around.
Think of it in terms of a blender. Your blender, by itself, doesn't work if you have too little electricity. Turn up the juice, and it works.
So too is the case with Chaos. It is his power that boosts sorcery and mysticism to where they're usable in the Age of Mortals. Likewise, when the greygem was loose upon the world in the Age of Dreams, ambient magic was usable then as well. By the end of that age, the power of Chaos died down, and the two forms of magic were no longer usable.
Check the DLCS for more info.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Why is that not possible?
Sorcery and mysticism were made available to mortals because of the release of the energies of the Graygem in the Chaos War. This means all such magic is "tainted" by Chaos but can be used for casting spells. Prior to the Chaos War, only certain very rare individuals, fey, dragons, etc could use this magic, and not in the same way that sorcerers and mystics now use it.
The first time sorcerers and mystics appeared was when the Greygem was first created and set free - prior to that, no mortals could use magic at all. The scions, in other words, were the earliest post-Greygem sorcerers. The influence of the Greygem over this ambient magic faded with time, however, and so eventually it was gone (and by that stage, the gods had already introduced wizard and cleric magic).
Cheers,
Cam
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Dragonhelm and I are insanely coincidental, as you can tell.
Cheers,
Cam
It's sort of like the Patty Duke Show. We're identical cousins.
Granted, Cam's the cute one... ;)
Seriously, though, Cam and I seem to do this a lot.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It's sort of like the Patty Duke Show. We're identical cousins.
Granted, Cam's the cute one... ;)
Seriously, though, Cam and I seem to do this a lot.
Conspiracy #2: Cam and Trampas are the same person, just with mutliple personalities...:P
But seriously, will there ever be a source book for Taladas. It sounds really interesting, yet I cannot find anything on it.
Originally posted by Halabis
Perhaps on Taladas they had discovered a way of taping and vastly amplifying the faint traces of ambient magic so as to let them function as sorcerers. *shrugs* its an idea =)
Anything's possible!
As long as there's a clever and dramatic way to do it, I'll buy it. Taladas is very much a land of contrasts to Ansalon, although there's a lot that's become synthesized with the current DL period - minotaur empires, thinker gnomes, and so on.
As far as I know, Taladas will remain more or less on the distant horizon for some time. Sovereign Press have their hands full just with bringing Ansalon itself up to date, let alone worrying about other continents!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Daedavias
Conspiracy #2: Cam and Trampas are the same person, just with mutliple personalities...:P
Great, you figured me/us out. ;)
But seriously, will there ever be a source book for Taladas. It sounds really interesting, yet I cannot find anything on it.
I think Sovereign Press will address Taladas at some point in the future. However, they have much to tackle in Ansalon first. I don't anticipate anything prior to 2005.
Halabis - I've thought along similar lines myself. Perhaps sorcery and mysticism work differently on Taladas. Perhaps Taladas is "chaos-touched". *shrugs*
For all we know when the graygem was first released into the world, or even after it was released by the gnome siege, the graygem could have flown to Taladas and settled before returning to Ansalon.
When the Scions were set afloat, they may have landed on Taladas before returning to Ansalon to instruct the wild mages.
The only official appearance of fifth age sorcerors and mystics is when fifth age was printed for Ansalon, nobody noted on Taladas. For all we know there has been a great civilization of sorcerors and mystics for generations on Taladas. It would help explain why there are fewer deities know by the populace of Taladas.
Shoot Branchala, Chemosh, Majere, Morgion, Paladine, Zeboim, and Zivilyn normally are not even worshipped among the people of Taladas. The gods of magic are not gods but sources of elemental energy (primal sorcery?).
Taladas does agree with the DLCS 3E that the gods of magic do not even have clerical worhippers, how strange is that.
With so little informationon Taladas, we can hypothesize about magic, religion, civilizations on Taladas and th eonly limit is our imagination.
It would make sense for Sov Press to not make a sourcebook for Taladas, so that when we ask "Why doesn't krynn has this or that?" They can say "How do you know, just look at Taladas."
A good example is the wizard tradition up with the alan atu and the northern ugian. Without clerics, wizards became like shamans and such.
As for the cha'asi, i believe that since they are essentially the first elves, they access magic at a much more primal level, almost draconic. Certainly they have extensions of mysticism, and since their power derives from the planet itself via natural items and focuses, i think they have a proto socercy as well. If you want to go with trampas's chaos touched theory, you can always use the giant wound of krynn as the focus, since it does seem to link directly into the plane of fire (though i'm more inclined to think it reaches into chaos himself...)
The story was dedicated to Rooks and other "aggresive supporters" of the fifth age and saga rules.
I was not originally a big supporter of these ideas and Rooks was a big reason that I finally accepted them.
Have not heard from Rooks in awhile, anyone know if he is still around? I kinda miss discussing things with the old Vega-knight.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Have heard from Rooks in awhile, anyone know if he is still around? I kinda miss discussing things with the old Vega-knight.
The old Death Vegan is keeping quite busy these days. He's working on a d20 version of Legend of Zelda, and he has something very special in the works.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Ferratus the idea of a master and apprentice is a cool idea but I would not use the idea "bounds." On Taladas, magic is as unrestrained as it is on any other world, like Faeurn for instance. If a bad wizard (not necesarily a black robe) is terrorizing the land "maybe" a good wizard would be willing to help stop him.
That doesn't make any sense though. If magic didn't need to be weilded by those with the proper initiation and acceptance of duties, then the WoHS would have never been formed. Why would the gods demand it for the spellcasters of one continent and not another?
So, yeah, I agree with darthsylver that a Taladas book would just plain kick ass.
In short the WoHS were created because of a catalyst.
On Taladas there is no such catalyst, as of yet.
Is this because the wild sorcerors and renegades of Taladas are simply more disciplined, or becasue the populace as a whole have not hunted down magic-users.
Simply, there was no reason to establish an organization like the WoHS on Taladas.
The fact that Taladasian see the gods of magic as elemental forces rather than gods might also explain why this has not happened.
The three wild mages had called upon (another cleric type action) the gods of magic to save their collective hides and the gods answered.
Please note that my intention here is not to belittle the Taladas wizard, but to discover the "selling point" of playing a wizard in Taladas.
Terry - the wizard/apprentice relationship is a distinct possibility. In a way, I'm reminded of the Jedi in Star Wars.
Jonesy - Consider sending in your Taladas wizard setup to the Nexus.
I could easily see a SAGA version of taladas, and can totally imagine sorcerors and mystics happily going on with their lives on taladas, especially since the continent never really felt the comings and goings of the gods as strongly as ansalon. It seems to me that after the Aurim empire collapse, civilization never really picked up again, so Taladan theology and wizardry evolved different traditions. Moreso since the only real empire left (the minotaurs) is pretty much secular.
One point is (and this might be changed with 3E, if they make it for Taladas) all Taladan wizards receive benefits from the moons of magic without having to give up anything in return. A wizard of this type would cause all manner of questions in the WoHS such as why commit to one, when you can get the extras without sacrifice and rules.
Unfortunately that is the only one I can think of right now. Even though I am an advocate of Taladasian Recognition, I have never had the oppotunity to play a Taladasian campaign. No DM of mine has ever really wanted to devote so much time to fleshing out Taladas when there were so many other references and sources for an Ansalon campaign.
Kinda ironic huh?
Originally posted by darthsylver
Have not heard from Rooks in awhile, anyone know if he is still around? I kinda miss discussing things with the old Vega-knight.
Hazzah! I've been summoned!
Actually, with all the projects inside and outside the roleplaying world, I've been almost too busy to do much posting here. That and I don't play much DL anymore really. But contact me via e-mail and I'll forward you my IM info so we can chew the fat.
Peace!
Originally posted by talinthas
I could easily see a SAGA version of taladas, and can totally imagine sorcerors and mystics happily going on with their lives on taladas, especially since the continent never really felt the comings and goings of the gods as strongly as ansalon.
It's funny that you mention that, as I was thinking along those lines myself.
From what I know of Taladas, I think it would be a good fit for the early Age of Mortals. I'm not sure the impact of the return of the gods would be as heavy as on Ansalon, but who knows?
Here's some food for thought. Knowing how magic all relates in Dragonlance, how would the magic-users of Taladas relate?
Originally posted by darthsylver
The only reason the WoHS were created was because the people of Ansalon were hunting the three wild mages who captured the dragons in the mountains and lost control of the magic.
The three wild mages had called upon (another cleric type action) the gods of magic to save their collective hides and the gods answered.
The gods answered because there was a very dangerous risk leaving magic unchecked in the hands of mortals. Why would they leave it unchecked in Taladas?
Sorry Darth, but it doesn't fit together nicely. Now, I'm not saying that we need to establish a WoHS on Taladas. In fact, I'm trying to avoid such an occurance. I'm trying to explain why exactly there hasn't been a "catalyst" yet to form such an order. The answer is simply that they've been doing well enough on their own in the cultural expectations of the master/student relationship.
Now if the WoHS come around will they think that they are renegades? Perhaps. However, I'm not really worried about it. I'm actually trying to have the same goal as you, keeping the Taladan wizards independent. However, we have to take Ansalon into account if we are going have the two continents on the same world.
Originally posted by ferratus
However, we have to take Ansalon into account if we are going have the two continents on the same world.
Not really. The DLCS flat out states that both continents lose knowledge/contact with each other back in the Age of Dreams. Even in the Time of the Dragon Boxed Set it only mentions a few instances of contact between the two continents:
1) In Pre-first Cataclysm times, the minoi gnomes of Taladas pursue the graygem to Ansalon, where some give up the search and become known as the tinker gnomes of Sancrist Isle.
2) After the Kinslayer War, Silvanesti elves get blown off course and marooned in southwestern Taladas, where they eventually establish the Confederation of Armach.
3) After the first Cataclysm, minotaurs from Ansalon invade western Taladas and establish the Minotaur League.
Taladas is essentially a stand-alone campaign within a campaign. It is highly conceivable that one could run a Taladas campaign without making any reference to or having an encounter with anything Ansalon-related.
The selling point of being a Taladan wizard?
i) You can advance wizard class levels all you want and not be required to join a prestige class.
ii) You can use magic irresponsibly and no monolithic organization will automatically be there to force you to play by the rules ... since there are none.
e.g.) When peasants accuse you of being a vile, hateful, evil bastard of a wizard, you prove it to them by fireballing their village and everyone in it, then raising their charred corpses as zombies to fill your Army of the Dead.
iii) You can be evil and be a specialist in the school of Abjuration or Divination. You can be good and be a specialist in the school of Enchantment or Necromancy, etc.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Jonesy - Consider sending in your Taladas wizard setup to the Nexus.
Just sent a refined copy.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Not really. The DLCS flat out states that both continents lose knowledge/contact with each other back in the Age of Dreams.
If the conclave was solely a human endevour and organization, then that would be a valid argument. The gods are however, the source and inspiration of the wizard's conclave, and actively play a role.
Judging by the fact that the gods waited until someone, three someones in fact, called for help, seemed IMO that the gods were more concerned with the outcome of their mages (their followers) rather than the fact that magic was running rampant in the land.
As I stated before, as far as we know there has been no such catalyst on Taladas.
This is not to say that I do not like your idea of a master and apprentice. I have always felt that with wizards there should be this sort of informal training. Sorcerors on the other hand are a whole different ball game.
Originally posted by darthsylver
When the three wild mages unleashed their magic the gods did not do anything until after the mages called for help.
Judging by the fact that the gods waited until someone, three someones in fact, called for help, seemed IMO that the gods were more concerned with the outcome of their mages (their followers) rather than the fact that magic was running rampant in the land.
So why isn't joining the conclave in this day and age a voluntary thing?
The reason someone would be pressured to "join" the WoHS is becaue this is an edict laid down by the gods of that particularly organization. The gods had decided that anyone who did not follow the rules they laid down was a threat to the WoHS, should these "renegades" draw the attention as the three wild mages did in the past. One might also say that the gods of magic wanter this because they had no control over those who were not WoHS, which brings up the fact of a "divine" tyoe power for the WoHS spells.
Think about this for a minute, a wizard learns magic normally and joins the WoHS. At this point in time the gods of magic can rescind all magic from the WoHS. If this same person decided not to join from the begining and became a renegade, then the gods would have no power over him and apparently cannot remove the magic from him (which is why the WoHS hunt these renegades). SO what happens when a WoHS goes renegade after he has been a WoHS for some years? If the gods cannot remove his power then he must have had some ephipany and changed his source of power, or otherwise the gods could remove it and the WoHS would not need to hunt him down.
After the WoS there is of course no conclave to join. If teh WoHS are reconstituted, as we are led to believe will happen, (what with dalamar head of the black robes and all) I would assume that theis edict would still be enforced by the WoHS. Unless the gods change their decision.
As far as the decision to join the conclave there was never the question of it being voluntary or not, it is just what was taught to young wizards as a normal progression of learning. Kinda like your teachers encouraging you to go to college, except on Ansalon your teachers are a little more insistent.
Here is something else to chew on.
On Taladas all wizards gain the benefits from the moons (Time of the Dragon 2E). Now when the gods leave Krynn during summer of chaos do the wizards lose their powers? This question is very important as follows:
1: If wizards of Taladas still have their power they be either fifth age sorcerors, or wizards.
If they were sorcerors, then they had somehow learned to tap the source of moon magic. Which causes all sorts of question (most people would dismiss this possibility outright).
If they were wizards then these wizards gain the benefits without the restrictions of being WoHS.
If either one of these theories are true, why would anyone seek to be a WoHS, except to gain a closer connection to a god? Why would a wizard do this, it makes sense for a priest or cleric. I mean think about it, you can go either route and still apparanetly gain the benefits from the moon without having to sacrifice schools, belong to a organization, have bosses (in the conclave).
Hey dragonhelm, there are a few more reasons to play a Taladasian wizard, above.
Originally posted by darthsylver
SO what happens when a WoHS goes renegade after he has been a WoHS for some years? If the gods cannot remove his power then he must have had some ephipany and changed his source of power, or otherwise the gods could remove it and the WoHS would not need to hunt him down.
Okay, but this means that 5th Age sorcery is available before the 5th Age. I've argued that this would solve a lot of problems (by bringing in bards and adepts as the wild sorcerers of previous ages) but appearantly that's a big no-no. No 5th Age sorcery on Ansalon before the 5th Age, period. Unless its in the Age of Dreams... *rubs temples* so messy.
Other than that though, the model works.
As far as fifth age goes, i see this as an a age in which many secrets of the world were revealed. Secrets that were protected and kept by the gods.
I tell you now, I plan to allow the class to be taken. Of course not if I have a WoHS in the same group.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Who says this is a big no-no. Where do you think renegades come from.
Renegades are wizards, not sorcerers (although I'm sure you could consider sorcerers after the War of Souls renegades). Sorcerers don't exist as a player option prior to the release of Chaos from the Graygem.
The suggestion has been made that on Taladas, something else provides the necessary Chaos-taint on local ambient arcane magic to enable sorcerers to use it. The Adlatum project has something very similar to this, although that's another subject entirely.
Cheers,
Cam
I see this issue of "sorceror" not being available until after the War of Chaos as an effort to keep the idea of a sorceror tied to the fifth age (saga), even though the 3e sorceror has little in common with the "primal sorceror" found in the fifth age.
What is so hard with saying that sorcerors are available prior to the war of souls. Someone (I do not recall who) came up with the idea that sorcery was created with the release of chaotic energy when chaos was freed. The graygem itself did this long before chaos was released, and continued to do it until the irda finally captured it. If we continue to make a connection between chaotic energy and sorcerors, then it does not make sense IMO to say that sorcerors could not have existed prior to the War of Chaos.
I mean are youreally saying that the graygem can create minotaurs from ogres, kender from elves, and gnomes from dwarves (or the other way around) but it cannot make a wizard into a sorceror. There were other things changed and corrupted by the graygem that were not even at the battle.
It is much simpler to explain why sorcery was relatively unknown prior to the War of Chaos, because they were hunted down and killed by the WoHS.
We need to stop thinking that simply because certain game aspects (like the 3e Sorceror class) were not created before 2003 (real time), that this means they could not have existed in Krynn prior to a certain time period.
We would have no problem making Riverwind a barbarian or ranger (using the 3e barbarian or fighter class, instead of a 2e fighter), but if someone says a character is a sorceror, now we say no.
Yes I understand that sorcerors were not common until after the Chaos War, but this is not to say that they simply did not exist simply becasue a system did not exist so they we could play these characters.
Then someone is going to do the same to continents, Taladas and apparently Adlatum, that are essentially free to break the constraints that currently exist for the continent (Ansalon) with the most referable history and resources.
The message I am getting is this, is Ansalon does not have, has not seen, or has not experienced it, then it simply must not exist.
Seems kinda narrow-minded IMO.
What is stopping Sovereign Press from saying that Sorcerors existed on Taladas, or Adlatum for that matter.
Originally posted by darthsylver
What is stopping Sovereign Press from saying that Sorcerors existed on Taladas, or Adlatum for that matter.
Damn straight.
Here, here.
Bravo.
Shazzam.
Cowabunga, dudes.
And all that jazz...
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Renegades are wizards, not sorcerers (although I'm sure you could consider sorcerers after the War of Souls renegades).
Margaret said on the DL-L a few weeks back that sorcerers are considered renegades as well.
By this definition, all arcane magic-users who practice magic outside of the Orders of High Sorcery would be considered renegades.
You're right in that the sorcerer isn't a perfect match for the SAGA sorcerer. It does have a same basic feel, though, and the Academy Sorcerer prestige class helps to maintain the SAGA feel more. I think this was a decision made by WotC to incorporate their sorcerer class in Dragonlance. The sorcerer/Academy Sorcerer is a pretty nifty compromise, IMO. You get the best of DL and D&D3e that way.
Another issue to consider is continuity. It is a tempting thought to say that Wild Sorcery and Mysticism were always available in Krynn's history. Yet this presents problems. Mysticism allows one to heal. If this magic is discovered between the Cataclysm and the War of the Lance, it cheapens Goldmoon and the return of the gods.
So in essence, what we have is a mechanical compromise coupled with a consistent continuity.
Now, if you want to use the sorcerer with the WoHS and use some variant sorcerer class to represent the sorcerer of the Fifth Age, feel free to.
Hope that helps.
If there is no connection then there should not be a problem with sorcery being available before the fifth age.
If there is a connection, and there were mystics (although as rare as, if not more than, sorcerors) it could be explained that nobody ever thought that you could heal through mysticism. Remember it took Goldmoon an extreme amount of effort to accomplish healing Jasper, and she was the one who brought the gods back, s well as being a cleric for years before this happened.
Right before the cataclysm all the true clerics were removed from Krynn so those who would fill the same "qualifications" as Goldmoon were gone. As far as mysticism before the Cataclysm there was no need for it as the gods were still around to believe in and nobody "needed" to believe in themselves in order to heal. IMO it is easier to believe in someone else than it is to believe in your self.
If someone was to discover how to heal using mysticism before the WoTL, others would probably just think she was a follower of Mishakel (remember the people thought that the gods had abadoned them, but they believed they were still there, I think). This is especially true on Taladas, where Mishakel returned her powers to them as few as 20 years after the cataclysm (granted these people remained hidden from most others).
Rooks - I knew I could count on you for supporting sorcerors before the fifth age.
Having sorcerers and mystics being AoM-specific classes is desgined to keep a mainstream continuity that is true to the world. While it may suit your group to have sorcerers and mystics prior to the Age of Mortals, it may be problematic to other groups.
It's funny, really. Each time the rules change, the world changes. First edition was almost hardwired into the setting. Second ed. wasn't really much of a change. SAGA was a huge change, especially in terms of magic.
Here we are in third edition, and we're redefining Dragonlance again to meet with the D&D rules. Some changes, or tweaking, has had to occur. Compromises have had to be met.
Throughout it all, there has had to be logical explanations as to why certain things were the way they were in the world.
Really, it doesn't matter which way you go so long as you can keep continuity and the DL feel in your games. That's what is truly important.
When the Greygem was split apart and the magic released, it once again flooded the world with its influence, and this time it was permanent. However, for the first 40 years of ambient magic's new dawn, it didn't reach the potential the scions had felt in it thousands of years earlier because Takhisis had set the souls of the dead to leech it from anybody who tried to use it. This grew more and more persistent until finally most magic was unusable (as shown in the War of Souls). Following the War, and the freedom of the River of Souls to depart Krynn once more, sorcery and mysticism are now at their greatest strength. Thus, some of the limitations felt by sorcerers and mystics in the Fifth Age have been lifted.
Over the ages, some rare individuals have been born with a limited ability to use mystic or sorcerer traits. Among the elves, for instance, minor telepathic ability has been reported, and some human women experienced visions or clairvoyant dreams. These people aren't true sorcerers or mystics, but their abilities do touch upon that wellspring of ambient energy that is otherwise out of reach.
The 3rd edition sorcerer's inclusion in the Dragonlance setting is, indeed, limited to the Age of Mortals - and only after the War of Souls is it without the limits imposed by the leeching of souls. This decision was made so as not to retroactively bring the class into the timeline, resolve continuity problems inherent in arcane spellcasters who don't seem to need books or preparations, and allow for all 3e classes to be present in the default period of Dragonlance gaming, the post-War of Souls period. All other time periods have one or more classes which become unavailable, which is just part of the maintenance of setting flavor and backwards compatibility.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The first time sorcery and mysticism were made available to mortals to use was when the Greygem escaped and its energies influenced the world. The first scions were thus able to draw upon this wild magic with great effect, and it was this unchecked magical power which almost destroyed the world.
I find this interesting, because it sets up another cataclysm to go with the other two. Is this effectively the first cataclysm? Was the first cataclysm the creation of the world? What of the final cataclysm mentioned in the DLCS? A whole destruction-rebirth aspect has entered into the dragonlance setting, which is something that is cool for history, but not really a storyline I want to encourage for the present. After all, almost every single nation and city in the DLCS basically ends with "... and now they need to rebuild." I think the setting could really go for a good thousand years without armageddon.
I have to say as well, that the 4th Age is awfully short to make the calendar pleasing, when previous ages were thousands of years long. Personally, I would have rather had them called "Time of Despair" and "Time of Mortals" in the "Age of Catastrophe" or "Age of Dragons". Perhaps something to think about for 4th edition, when people aren't so attached to the 4th Age and 5th Age labels.
The Gods of Magic introduced High Sorcery, and for a while the wizards and sorcerers co-existed. However, Chaos' influence over the ambient magic of Krynn waned, until by the time the Age of Might rolled around sorcery and mysticism no longer resonated with mortals, the taint of Chaos gone.
Just how this worked will have important implications on the present. If the WoHS had allowed the renegades to exist but simply kept an eye on them, acting as sort of magical enforcers of order in magic rather than a monopoly, one wonders why they cannot do so now.
See, a compromise peace will have to come eventually. I'm looking forward to the magical war as much as anyone, but the sorcerers are not going anywhere. Which means two things are true as a matter of fact in the dragonlance setting.
1) Sorcery will not destroy us all.
2) Sorcery will grow and flourish alongside the WoHS.
So the only role for the WoHS to play and still have any revelance is to work with monarchs and states to enforce a sort of compliance with accepted magical practices... which means that we have to come up with rules of what can and cannot be condoned by the conclave.
Following the War, and the freedom of the River of Souls to depart Krynn once more, sorcery and mysticism are now at their greatest strength. Thus, some of the limitations felt by sorcerers and mystics in the Fifth Age have been lifted.
Which means, in a single phrase, that Scions are back!
I personally think that Palin Majere is the first one. You can't jip a guy out of a prophecy of greatness.
Over the ages, some rare individuals have been born with a limited ability to use mystic or sorcerer traits. Among the elves, for instance, minor telepathic ability has been reported, and some human women experienced visions or clairvoyant dreams. These people aren't true sorcerers or mystics, but their abilities do touch upon that wellspring of ambient energy that is otherwise out of reach.
You know, I've been inspired to come up with a mess of feats to represent this.
This decision was made so as not to retroactively bring the class into the timeline, resolve continuity problems inherent in arcane spellcasters who don't seem to need books or preparations, and allow for all 3e classes to be present in the default period of Dragonlance gaming, the post-War of Souls period.
Yeah, I agree with the above motives, but it was still a messy way to go about it. Sovereign Press really didn't have any choice though. They were up against past mismanagement, unhealthy amounts of nostalgia, lack of respect for the original material by subsequent designers, and hardcore fans who were obsessed with trivial things and prevented the disparate elements from being smoothly mixed together.
The only thing that will fix dragonlance in the end is a lot of time and the weathering that will smooth out the jagged edges. Given enough time people will realize that everything in the setting will have to make sense together. That means they'll have to let go of certain truths that they hold dear. The retconning is certainly not finished, not by a long shot.
Originally posted by ferratus
I personally think that Palin Majere is the first one. You can't jip a guy out of a prophecy of greatness.
Maybe. But Palin's free will supersedes any notions of prophecy. The man gave it up to be with his family, which is a decision his uncle didn't make. Ambition gives way to love of others, in Palin's case, which I find a hell of a lot more satisfying than any "Palin is the chosen one" plot.
Ulin on the other hand...
Cheers,
Cam
As far as the Scions, IMO Scions are those rare individuals that can use Sorcery and Mysticism by mixing both energies into a single combined effect. As such nobody (unless I missed someone) can do that yet.
Cam - Now this explanation I think I can accept.
From what I am reading you are saying that the graygem energies are kinda like radiation from a nuke. The influenece can be felt for years and years (possibly hundreds of years) but eventually fade out for the most part. There might be a occasional person affected by the "ambient" energy leftover but for the most part these individuals are so unheard of, as to be rare or virtually non-existent.
Now Cam correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that it is at least possible that a sorceror or mystic could have existed on Krynn but just not have become as powerful as the ones common in the fifth age?
Using your above example (graygem energies) then this holds with what 3.5E implies about sorcerors (graygem energy instead of blood of dragons) and so 3.5E sorcerors and mystics should be available (of course rare, very rare, extremely rare) but that 5th age sorcerors & mystics (academy sorcerors & citadel mystics) would not be?
Now I am not advocating that a group playing in DL should have 2 or 3 sorcerors and 2 mystics. I am just saying that it might be possible to have 1 of either class but no more than that. And certainly not more than 1 in any campaign.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Now Cam correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that it is at least possible that a sorceror or mystic could have existed on Krynn but just not have become as powerful as the ones common in the fifth age?
Correct. This is your loophole, as it were, for allowing either of these two classes into your campaign prior to when the Greygem was split open by the Irda and ambient magic was once again re-energized by Chaos. It would not be too far-fetched to allow for a character who has low-level spells, those which fall under the realm of what the Wizards of High Sorcery consider "dabbler" levels of power - 0-level cantrips, 1st-level spells, and 2nd-level spells. Cantrips are probably the easiest to assign, and you could conceivably allow a sorcerer or mystic who is unable to learn or know any spells greater than, say, 1st-level, and has to use their higher-level spell slots for lower-level ones.
What I would encourage you not to do, however, is bring in a standard sorcerer or mystic with full spellcasting ability. It'd be much easier to work one in who had limited power than one who resembles those from the current era. If you had to, you could always pin the additional spellcasting talent on a fey parent (such as a dryad or satyr), as the faerie races are capable of using ambient magic in all eras.
Cheers,
Cam
Now what about on Tlaadas or Adaltum. Sorcerors breeding with sorcerors, keeping the chaos blood alive, hmmm. You know maybe even where there is a civilization that has traditions or culture and other stuff that empahasizes this connection. You know maybe a stigma against sorcerors who marry non-sorcerors? Possibly?