Is the ice wall a viking culture or more like Greenland?
Are the bararians of abasania like the amrican indians or a mix of differet culturies/cultures
I dont want Ansalon to be a copy of our earth, just some good ideas to make the place alive.
The Barbarians of Abanasinia are definately a Native American culture.
Also, I tend to see the Barbarians of the Plains of Dust as horse-riding Mongols. Read the novel Murder in Tarsis and you'll see what I mean.
I do know that the Native Americans did have this thing where they went around and if they could touch each other on the head with some random stick, without the person noticing they were there, they'd win some sort of honour. That was as fierce as most battles went.
Originally posted by Hubert
What kind of culture or contry do you think the different contries of ansalon are based on.
Is the ice wall a viking culture or more like Greenland?
Are the bararians of abasania like the amrican indians or a mix of differet culturies/cultures
I dont want Ansalon to be a copy of our earth, just some good ideas to make the place alive.
Ice Wall/Icereach: Most definitely a scandinavian-type culture, in terms of human ethnicity and society. Douglas Niles' Icewall trilogy portrays this quite clearly. The novel depiction of the Companions' encounter with the natives of the Icewall Glacier also backs this up.
Abanasinian plainsfolk: Native american. I'm not familiar enough with native american culture to give you an exact tribal comparison, but I believe the Annotated Chronicles directly stated that the Abanasinian Plainsmen were native american-inspired.
Originally posted by iltharanos
Ice Wall/Icereach: Most definitely a scandinavian-type culture, in terms of human ethnicity and society. Douglas Niles' Icewall trilogy portrays this quite clearly. The novel depiction of the Companions' encounter with the natives of the Icewall Glacier also backs this up.
Nah, not unless you call big men with axes and swords scandanavian culture. There was little scandanavian influence that I could see. No feud-based legal structure, no obsession with dreams and prophecies, no trifold caste system... heck, nobody even has the title of Jarl and there aren't even people with cognomens like Sigurdsson or Ulfsdottir. I think you could claim any number of nationalities are similar to the Icefolk, simply because Krynn has its own cultures seperate from earth's.
Abanasinian plainsfolk: Native american. I'm not familiar enough with native american culture to give you an exact tribal comparison, but I believe the Annotated Chronicles directly stated that the Abanasinian Plainsmen were native american-inspired.
Perhaps, but the reality of the situtation is that they have little in common with native americans culturally. They are semi-pastoralists for example (sheperds and farmers) who build stone tombs (with mummies) and use steel weapons.
Look what the people of a particular location have, make a living, rule themselves, and then build a culture out of that, rather than looking to earth.
Originally posted by ferratus
Nah, not unless you call big men with axes and swords scandanavian culture. There was little scandanavian influence that I could see. No feud-based legal structure, no obsession with dreams and prophecies, no trifold caste system... heck, nobody even has the title of Jarl and there aren't even people with cognomens like Sigurdsson or Ulfsdottir. I think you could claim any number of nationalities are similar to the Icefolk, simply because Krynn has its own cultures seperate from earth's.
When those big, pale, blonde and red-headed men/women with axes and swords live in an arctic/sub-arctic environment and walk around with names like Lars Redbeard and Bruni ... then yes, I'd say that they are based on a Scandinavian-type culture. Note the key phrase, "based on". One could even say, "inspired". Just because it is based on or inspired from an Earth culture does not mean it has all the aspects of that culture.
Perhaps, but the reality of the situtation is that they have little in common with native americans culturally. They are semi-pastoralists for example (sheperds and farmers) who build stone tombs (with mummies) and use steel weapons.
Sure, if you analyze them to any sort of depth. The fact of the matter is that on the surface they look and seem like Native Americans. They wear animal skins, have the physical features of the "stereotypical [read: popularized image of]" native americans, and walk around with names like Brightdawn, Riverwind, Moonsong, etc. Sure there are differences. They wield metal, they live side-by-side with a medieval European-style group of people, they build stone tombs, they've got magic, dragons attack them. But in the end they are still based on or inspired from the popularized conception of Native Americans.
Look what the people of a particular location have, make a living, rule themselves, and then build a culture out of that, rather than looking to earth.
Why not look to Earth? It's the easiest thing to do. Is it accurate? Nope. But if you're a DM introducing the Dragonlance campaign to a player that's completely unfamiliar with the Dragonlance setting, it's a lot easier to spend 10 seconds telling that player that the Abanasinian plainsmen are like Native Americans, then spending 10 minutes (or more) educating that player as to the utter uniqueness of the Plainsmen and how they may physically look like native americans (with the exception of Goldmoon), but how they are their own independent culture. Now once this player becomes more familiar with Dragonlance, then you can start in on the differentiating characteristics.
Originally posted by iltharanos
When those big, pale, blonde and red-headed men/women with axes and swords live in an arctic/sub-arctic environment and walk around with names like Lars Redbeard and Bruni ... then yes, I'd say that they are based on a Scandinavian-type culture. Note the key phrase, "based on". One could even say, "inspired". Just because it is based on or inspired from an Earth culture does not mean it has all the aspects of that culture.
Yeah, but it isn't based on a scandanavian culture. It's based on a picture of a big white guy carrying a sword. They could be English, German, Slavic... all of those cultures had names like that, because all of them had a common root. The fact is there was a lot of variance.
Sure there are differences. They wield metal, they live side-by-side with a medieval European-style group of people, they build stone tombs, they've got magic, dragons attack them. But in the end they are still based on or inspired from the popularized conception of Native Americans.
Yeah, but what else besides feathers in their hair do they got that even remotely resembles the Huron, the Iroquois, the Blackfoot, the Dene, the Sioux, or my own blood the Cree? They don't live in wigwams, tepees, longhouses, or igloos. They don't perform sun dances, tell stories of the raven or coyote, or drink grandfather peyote. So you are pretty much misleading your players by saying they resemble native americans because they don't resemble any native american cultures. They are semi-pastoral sheperds and farmers who live and act like Europeans. Heck, if I was to shoot for an earth culture they most resemble, I'd say the Gaulish Celts.
But any coincidences there too are pretty much coincidental.
Plus, I find it problematic that when fantasy cultures tend to adopt earth cultures, they do it a stereotypical and insultingly condescending way. At best its "Look at those quaint people with their quaint customs, such noble savages". At worst its filled with a bunch of lies or bias to fit some author's world veiw, like pretending that all medieval europeans were unwashed illiterates who burned witches all day, while the roman empire was filled with cultured people in togas that sipped wine all day and lived in marble palaces.
Why not look to Earth? It's the easiest thing to do.
Yeah, and everybody does it. The fact that Krynn's cultures are not carbon copies of earth's is the main reason I like dragonlance. Otherwise I'd play in an alternate history earth, or the Forgotten Realms.
Take that away the unique cultures of Krynn from me, and I lose a lot of enthusiasm for the setting. Why deal with Ansalon's numerous problems (due to past mismanagement) if when all is said and done we just make it look like the Forgotten Realms (popular earth history periods mashed together) anyway?
Is it accurate? Nope. But if you're a DM introducing the Dragonlance campaign to a player that's completely unfamiliar with the Dragonlance setting, it's a lot easier to spend 10 seconds telling that player that the Abanasinian plainsmen are like Native Americans, then spending 10 minutes (or more) educating that player as to the utter uniqueness of the Plainsmen
That's what the "Life and Society" entry under a geography chapter heading is for. A nice brief rundown of the society that takes 10 seconds to read.
True, the Abanasinian tribes are depicted as Native American, but they are not, They are a barbarian culture that were created with elements of that ethnicity.
I never thought the Plainsmen fought between each other. Where's this from?
I havn't read any DL novels specifically about the Plainsmen but in the Chronicles and Time of the Twins I think there were a few references made about some infighting between the tribes. At the begining of Time of the Twins when Riverwind is talking to Tanis he says he has to get back to the plains to make sure the tentative peace between them remains and they don't go back to fighting again.
In most cases, it's very obviously stereotypical concepts of those Earth cultures that are used, not exacting details. You won't find the Orkneyinga Saga drawn upon heavily for Raggart Knug and his people in Icereach, for example. But you would have to be blind to the obvious if you didn't notice the clear and marked homages to those fantasy cliches.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
In most cases, it's very obviously stereotypical concepts of those Earth cultures that are used, not exacting details.
So why insert those exacting details? I mean, why travel the road that everybody has travelled before, and I do mean everybody. Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk already use this approach, along with every single homebrew world where the DM is older than 12. Why not have a traditional vanilla setting that springs from nowhere but itself?
People have been ripping off earth cultures (badly) since the days of Tolkien. Sci-fi doesn't feel bound to that formula, so why should we? It doesn't have to be unrealistic, just keep in mind how people feed themselves, trade, educate their children, and gain religious inspiration. All of the cultural elements will fall into place if you consider the needs of the human condition.
Originally posted by ferratus
So why insert those exacting details?
I'm not.
In most cases, what's added is just visual representation or details which arise from the culture's geographic location. The Icefolk have ships on great ice-skates, for example - nice touch, makes a certain kind of sense.
The beauty of it is that if the DM is stuck for something, he can quickly reference a real-world culture for a basic idea of how a culture operates, and then run with it as necessary. Familiarity proves to be one of the key elements for fantasy verisimilitude, and so long as you don't lift everything hook line and sinker from history, it's all good.
But we've had this discussion before. Bottom line - DL cultures have real-world influences based on stereotypes and romantic ideals, but they are not carbon copies of those cultures and thus have developed into their own thing. And we're cool with that.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
But we've had this discussion before. Bottom line - DL cultures have real-world influences based on stereotypes and romantic ideals, but they are not carbon copies of those cultures and thus have developed into their own thing. And we're cool with that.
Yeah, and I'm cool with that too. However, when you out and out say that these people are x culture, you have a lot of baggage that can hurt, rather than enrich the setting.
For example, take Mulhorand and Unther in the Forgotten Realms, who are based on Pharonic Egypt and Babylon. Now, I find that rather boring, but besides that you also have the fact that they are still using bronze weapons! That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This has also happened in DL in "The Cataclysm" antology short story involving Nicole and Micheal, when they gave her Solamnic armour to Astinus because "The plainsmen had never seen metal weapons or armour before". I smacked my forehead that day, and my suspension of disbelief snapped.
That's why I'd rather look at what the humans have around them, rather than airlifting earth cultures in.
Some people like to take the in-depth approach to analyzing Dragonlance cultures. I don't. Maximization of fun is the goal of my players and I. Giving an in-depth thesis on the unique cultures and social mores of the various Dragonlance cultures without referring to or airlifting Earth cultures does not fit into my picture of a fun or amusing gaming session. If you (this is a general you) and your players enjoy that kind of thing, more power to you. None of the players I have played with or encountered in my 14 years of roleplaying have desired that level of insight into a gaming world's cultures. For them, a simple phrase like:
"the Icefolk of Icereach are like Scandinavians",
more than suffices to whet their thirst for Dragonlance culture. Is it based on an unwarranted stereotype? Probably, but none of my players care, and neither do I. That simple one sentence phrase does nothing to detract from the wonder and joy my gaming group and I have roleplaying in the Dragonlance world.
As for there being a problem with Fantasy cultures adopting Earth
cultures, I don't see it. We're not playing games that try to accurately and historically depict real world cultures. We're playing a game that often draws on Western stereotypes concerning a myriad of medieval cultures. A lot of times these stereotypes are way off. Again, so what? As long as your gaming group is having fun and aren't sticklers for historical and cultural accuracy, it's all good.
Anyway, are you telling me that you'd rather base Krynn's culture's off earth's cultures, or are you arguing with me to argue with me? I don't care if that's what you do in the absence of a good atlas, but I have higher ambitions and expectations for the upcoming world itself.
Just basing cultures off earth cultures often is messy. Let's say you plop down Persian, Aztec, Japanese, and Irish cultures down next to each other. Now you'll get a whole bunch of exotic imagery, but the world will look and feel fake. That's because not only did these cultures develop in a certain way due to the geographical and chronological realities of their location, but also due to the influences of the cultures around them. That's why I'm so damned annoyed by the idea of plainsmen being afraid of metal weapons. It just doesn't feel real anymore. My suspension of disbelief in the setting I just described would snap every time my character crossed a border.