Fraternity of Shadows- why illusionists? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fraternity of Shadows- why illusionists?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2003 2:04:46 Perhaps someone can answer this for me.
In the society Fraternity of Shadows, the top 5 leaders, the Umbra all have to be of illusionist magic. To be a member you have to know some illusion magic.
May I ask WHY?
Since their goal is to learn all they can about the demi plane so they can take over, can someone tell me if illusion magic holds some special power in Ravenloft I'm not aware of?

Is it forany of these possible reasons: (guesses on my part)
A) Illusions are more powerful in RL?
B) Knowledge in that school actually helps those who want to gain power of the land?
C) Is it because RL is in the etheral and illusions can change reality?

Any help in clearing up this would be very helpful. Any and all info related to this is requested, or at least being told WHERE I can find out about this aspect or why illusion magic is held in special regard in this society.

It sounds like a lie to me. Like they tell members that so only illusionists challenge those in power to rule. Then when they give the challenge they are wacked easy, because they are casting illusions and an umbra can cast bigby's crushing fist or a fireball or whatever... (can you tell I never played a magic user?) lol Almost 25 years of D&D and I never played one 'cause it was too much to keep track of. Then again, our DM made us keep track of components too. *Shrugs

Thank you in advance.
~Andrew
#2
john_w._mangrum
Dec 05, 2003 3:06:03 The way I think of it is that their goal is to pierce the veils hiding the true nature of reality, and to reveal the truth, one must first learn how it is hidden.

My problem with the Fraternity in the 2E days was that their membership requirements precluded arcanists from joining, despite that arcanists would have made ideal members. (An alignment conflict, if I recall correctly.)
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2003 3:25:16 Yes, they do sound like they would be well suitied, except for the alignment and mad quest for power. LOL They aren't looking to learn the secrets for any good or noble cause, that's for sure.

Of course, since knowing alignment isn't possible in RL I guess an arcanist could always 'fake it.'

OK thanks. So it's just a philosphy ideal on the societies' part. It has no basis in illusion magic being special in RL. Thanks.
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2003 8:19:52 My take on that is that they come from Démentlieu and tradition has set it. I don't remember how the Society has started or if it's mentionned.
Most spellcasters in Démentlieu are Illusionnist. So if the Society started there (very likely considering how the domain is cultivated and values knowledge), then the founding members would probably be Illusionnists and the tradition continued.
Maybe at first only illusionists were allowed but then they opened for all mage (except the umbra).

That's my take anyway
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2003 8:54:33 Tangential to what was said already, I have an illusionist NPC in my campaign who chose his career for just these reasons. He traveled across the Lands of Mist (most folks actually mistake him for a Bard) and came to the understanding that there is but one deity with many, many aspects. His goal has come to be seeing the face of this deific power. Part of his methodology involves hallucinogenic drugs brought from Sri Raji, but he augments these magicks with illusions.

His more mystical belief is that all reality is an illusion. By mastering illusion magic, he sees himself as actually manipulating reality in subtle ways. He can make sounds. He can make sights. With some spells he can combine sensory creations. He believes that when he attains more powerful spells, he will be able to actually reshape reality, and some day--to use John W. Mangrum's phrase from above--"pierce the veils" that conceal the deity from the eyes of those who have chosen not to see it.

When I read the Fraternity of Shadows, I attribute similar qualities to their illusionists. A little less religious, but similar in that they see the world as malleable, and their magic as the tools to ply it.
#6
dmitri_stanislaus
Dec 05, 2003 14:16:16 [wretched self-promoting plug]

I wrote up a detailed description of the Fraternity of Shadows for the USS 2002, and the reason that I used for the emphasis on illusion is that the members are extremely solipsistic.

Basically, the members of the Fraternity believe that Ravenloft is the creation/dream of a mind or minds, and that if they can get enough people to believe their version of reality instead, they will have actually succeeded in creating a new reality which they control.

Sorta a "Reality is Illusion, therefore Illusion is Reality" mind-set.
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2003 19:21:19 Shameless plug or not, I checked my USS 2002 edition and sure enough, Lots & Lots O' juicy bits on the FoS.

Planned for 'Involution' when players arrive in Il Aluk (Cira app. 704BC) we are going to have raging philosphical debates occuring at the University. This is the current list of philosphies to appear about the nature of the demi-plane:

The Petrie Dish Theory
The Extended Reality Theory
The Flip Coin Theory
The Reflected Reality Theory
The ‘This is All There Is’ Theory

Consider this an official request Dmitri to add content based on your writings of the Frat's view that the RL reality can be created and manipulated by mental effort.

See? It's true too. You're mental effort in the form of the article has influenced the world of Involution and it has changed. :P

Anyway... permission to incoporate your ideas into some backgroud flavor of Il Aluk?
~Andrew
#8
dmitri_stanislaus
Dec 08, 2003 14:38:20
Originally posted by daffy72
Shameless plug or not, I checked my USS 2002 edition and sure enough, Lots & Lots O' juicy bits on the FoS.

Planned for 'Involution' when players arrive in Il Aluk (Cira app. 704BC) we are going to have raging philosphical debates occuring at the University. This is the current list of philosphies to appear about the nature of the demi-plane:

The Petrie Dish Theory
The Extended Reality Theory
The Flip Coin Theory
The Reflected Reality Theory
The ‘This is All There Is’ Theory

Consider this an official request Dmitri to add content based on your writings of the Frat's view that the RL reality can be created and manipulated by mental effort.

See? It's true too. You're mental effort in the form of the article has influenced the world of Involution and it has changed. :P

Anyway... permission to incoporate your ideas into some backgroud flavor of Il Aluk?
~Andrew

Sounds great. Let me know what you need--some kind of write-up from me, or something? If so, what should I cover?
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 08, 2003 21:37:41 Your offer of help was quite unexpected and a pleasant surprise.

Anything you care to type up please send to: [email]info@DigitalChameleons.com[/email]

If you don't want to do anything, let me know and we will write up the debate. (I just need to know either way so it gets done. *Smiles)

If you only feel like providing a bullet list of major points thats fine.

If you want to write an entire dialogue that is fine too. Length: In a video game there is no such thing as "too long"

Players have the option of leaving a conversation if they want.

You can describe the setting.

Is it set up like a lecture hall?
Is it a professor wandering the campus?
Is it an illusionist doing show and tell?
Is he/she secretly a member of the FoS and looking for new potential/ recruits?

(We can tag almost anything, so if you want the speaker to pull illusionists off to the side to talk to them about Fos, we can do that). Or they can meet them later at a pub, or tell them to go to a certain location at a certain time, etc.

Is the speaker just talking at people, or is it a give and take conversation?

If its give and take, please provide PC responses and the threads of those paths. Please provide a variety of responses- from informed to Naive, to insulting (for example).
You can also tag responses as (sense motive) or needing a certain intelligence to show up, or the player needing to be a certain class.

Usually you do not want to go more then 4 responses, and always bring threads back into the main subject within 4 levels. Games never go beyond 16 possibilities, because then it involves complex Algorithms that choke most all PC processors.

Anyway if youre not sure about how certain threads should proceed, you can just leave a note:

Etc. I think you see, no matter what you provide, we can work with it. The more realized your concept is, the more we can do with it.

If you have a definate idea for who the speaker or group of debating character(s) should be, a little write up on them helps. If you are using canon NPCs please make sure it is in accord with the year 703-705BC.
Perhaps provide a list of their most common skills. A lot of depth here isn't really needed though.
It can be as simple as- 5th level academic (or expert) <<>>
*Always has an illusion of a zombie memorized. Stuff like that.

If you want to provide a sentence or two about the persons description, that would appear if players EXAMINE the NPC.

hmmm. I think that's enough info? It certainly is a good deal o' babble.
hope that helps a bit to let you know the possibilities.
Email me with any questions or you can catch me on MSN Instant messenger - ID- [email]bator_andrew@hotmail.com[/email]

Thanks again for your offer to help.

Sincerely,
Andrew Bator
RPGfortress & Dark Powers of Ravenloft Guild

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 2:04:46	Perhaps someone can answer this for me. In the society Fraternity of Shadows, the top 5 leaders, the Umbra all have to be of illusionist magic. To be a member you have to know some illusion magic. May I ask WHY? Since their goal is to learn all they can about the demi plane so they can take over, can someone tell me if illusion magic holds some special power in Ravenloft I'm not aware of? Is it forany of these possible reasons: (guesses on my part) A) Illusions are more powerful in RL? B) Knowledge in that school actually helps those who want to gain power of the land? C) Is it because RL is in the etheral and illusions can change reality? Any help in clearing up this would be very helpful. Any and all info related to this is requested, or at least being told WHERE I can find out about this aspect or why illusion magic is held in special regard in this society. It sounds like a lie to me. Like they tell members that so only illusionists challenge those in power to rule. Then when they give the challenge they are wacked easy, because they are casting illusions and an umbra can cast bigby's crushing fist or a fireball or whatever... (can you tell I never played a magic user?) lol Almost 25 years of D&D and I never played one 'cause it was too much to keep track of. Then again, our DM made us keep track of components too. *Shrugs Thank you in advance. ~Andrew
#2 john_w._mangrum Dec 05, 2003 3:06:03	The way I think of it is that their goal is to pierce the veils hiding the true nature of reality, and to reveal the truth, one must first learn how it is hidden. My problem with the Fraternity in the 2E days was that their membership requirements precluded arcanists from joining, despite that arcanists would have made ideal members. (An alignment conflict, if I recall correctly.)
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 3:25:16	Yes, they do sound like they would be well suitied, except for the alignment and mad quest for power. LOL They aren't looking to learn the secrets for any good or noble cause, that's for sure. Of course, since knowing alignment isn't possible in RL I guess an arcanist could always 'fake it.' OK thanks. So it's just a philosphy ideal on the societies' part. It has no basis in illusion magic being special in RL. Thanks.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 8:19:52	My take on that is that they come from Démentlieu and tradition has set it. I don't remember how the Society has started or if it's mentionned. Most spellcasters in Démentlieu are Illusionnist. So if the Society started there (very likely considering how the domain is cultivated and values knowledge), then the founding members would probably be Illusionnists and the tradition continued. Maybe at first only illusionists were allowed but then they opened for all mage (except the umbra). That's my take anyway
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 8:54:33	Tangential to what was said already, I have an illusionist NPC in my campaign who chose his career for just these reasons. He traveled across the Lands of Mist (most folks actually mistake him for a Bard) and came to the understanding that there is but one deity with many, many aspects. His goal has come to be seeing the face of this deific power. Part of his methodology involves hallucinogenic drugs brought from Sri Raji, but he augments these magicks with illusions. His more mystical belief is that all reality is an illusion. By mastering illusion magic, he sees himself as actually manipulating reality in subtle ways. He can make sounds. He can make sights. With some spells he can combine sensory creations. He believes that when he attains more powerful spells, he will be able to actually reshape reality, and some day--to use John W. Mangrum's phrase from above--"pierce the veils" that conceal the deity from the eyes of those who have chosen not to see it. When I read the Fraternity of Shadows, I attribute similar qualities to their illusionists. A little less religious, but similar in that they see the world as malleable, and their magic as the tools to ply it.
#6 dmitri_stanislaus Dec 05, 2003 14:16:16	[wretched self-promoting plug] I wrote up a detailed description of the Fraternity of Shadows for the USS 2002, and the reason that I used for the emphasis on illusion is that the members are extremely solipsistic. Basically, the members of the Fraternity believe that Ravenloft is the creation/dream of a mind or minds, and that if they can get enough people to believe their version of reality instead, they will have actually succeeded in creating a new reality which they control. Sorta a "Reality is Illusion, therefore Illusion is Reality" mind-set.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 19:21:19	Shameless plug or not, I checked my USS 2002 edition and sure enough, Lots & Lots O' juicy bits on the FoS. Planned for 'Involution' when players arrive in Il Aluk (Cira app. 704BC) we are going to have raging philosphical debates occuring at the University. This is the current list of philosphies to appear about the nature of the demi-plane: The Petrie Dish Theory The Extended Reality Theory The Flip Coin Theory The Reflected Reality Theory The ‘This is All There Is’ Theory Consider this an official request Dmitri to add content based on your writings of the Frat's view that the RL reality can be created and manipulated by mental effort. See? It's true too. You're mental effort in the form of the article has influenced the world of Involution and it has changed. :P Anyway... permission to incoporate your ideas into some backgroud flavor of Il Aluk? ~Andrew
#8 dmitri_stanislaus Dec 08, 2003 14:38:20	Originally posted by daffy72 Shameless plug or not, I checked my USS 2002 edition and sure enough, Lots & Lots O' juicy bits on the FoS. Planned for 'Involution' when players arrive in Il Aluk (Cira app. 704BC) we are going to have raging philosphical debates occuring at the University. This is the current list of philosphies to appear about the nature of the demi-plane: The Petrie Dish Theory The Extended Reality Theory The Flip Coin Theory The Reflected Reality Theory The ‘This is All There Is’ Theory Consider this an official request Dmitri to add content based on your writings of the Frat's view that the RL reality can be created and manipulated by mental effort. See? It's true too. You're mental effort in the form of the article has influenced the world of Involution and it has changed. :P Anyway... permission to incoporate your ideas into some backgroud flavor of Il Aluk? ~Andrew Sounds great. Let me know what you need--some kind of write-up from me, or something? If so, what should I cover?
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 08, 2003 21:37:41	Your offer of help was quite unexpected and a pleasant surprise. Anything you care to type up please send to: [email]info@DigitalChameleons.com[/email] If you don't want to do anything, let me know and we will write up the debate. (I just need to know either way so it gets done. Smiles) If you only feel like providing a bullet list of major points thats fine. If you want to write an entire dialogue that is fine too. Length: In a video game there is no such thing as "too long" Players have the option of leaving a conversation if they want. You can describe the setting. Is it set up like a lecture hall? Is it a professor wandering the campus? Is it an illusionist doing show and tell? Is he/she secretly a member of the FoS and looking for new potential/ recruits? (We can tag almost anything, so if you want the speaker to pull illusionists off to the side to talk to them about Fos, we can do that). Or they can meet them later at a pub, or tell them to go to a certain location at a certain time, etc. Is the speaker just talking at people, or is it a give and take conversation? If its give and take, please provide PC responses and the threads of those paths. Please provide a variety of responses- from informed to Naive, to insulting (for example). You can also tag responses as (sense motive) or needing a certain intelligence to show up, or the player needing to be a certain class. Usually you do not want to go more then 4 responses, and always bring threads back into the main subject within 4 levels. Games never go beyond 16 possibilities, because then it involves complex Algorithms that choke most all PC processors. Anyway if youre not sure about how certain threads should proceed, you can just leave a note: Etc. I think you see, no matter what you provide, we can work with it. The more realized your concept is, the more we can do with it. If you have a definate idea for who the speaker or group of debating character(s) should be, a little write up on them helps. If you are using canon NPCs please make sure it is in accord with the year 703-705BC. Perhaps provide a list of their most common skills. A lot of depth here isn't really needed though. It can be as simple as- 5th level academic (or expert) <<>> Always has an illusion of a zombie memorized. Stuff like that. If you want to provide a sentence or two about the persons description, that would appear if players EXAMINE the NPC. hmmm. I think that's enough info? It certainly is a good deal o' babble. hope that helps a bit to let you know the possibilities. Email me with any questions or you can catch me on MSN Instant messenger - ID- [email]bator_andrew@hotmail.com[/email] Thanks again for your offer to help. Sincerely, Andrew Bator RPGfortress & Dark Powers of Ravenloft Guild