Cheers,
Jim Lowder
I don't understand. Are you working on Ravenloft right now?
and of course, Goodbye to a good writer, Mr. Cermak.
Originally posted by Walden
Mr. Lowder,
I don't understand. Are you working on Ravenloft right now?
and of course, Goodbye to a good writer, Mr. Cermak.
As someone mentioned elsewhere, I wrote up the Wanderers (from Spectre of the Black Rose) for Heroes of Light. I wrote half the entry on Sithicus and the darklord material on Inza for the upcoming Gaz that includes Sithicus. I don't have any Ravenloft projects on my schedule after that.
As I trust both Andrew and John both know, I've long admired the tireless work they and the other Kargatane folks have done on Ravenloft. I hope that they'll be able to take a break and come back to the setting some time in the future suitably reinvigorated.
Life is long. And the best part of any RPG setting or rule system is that any mistake made can pretty much be undone at a later date, with a clever or, better yet, thoughful bit of retroactive continuity.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Not that long, Mr. Lowder (or maybe I've just been reading too much Ravenloft;) )
Seriously, who is working on Ravenloft these days?
I know Ms. Cassada and Ms. Rea are at the head and that they just brought back Mr. Miller, but who else is there?
Originally posted by Walden
Life is long.
Not that long, Mr. Lowder (or maybe I've just been reading too much Ravenloft;) )
Seems that way to me--in terms of Ravenloft, anyway. ;)
I started working on the setting as fiction line editor, and as author on Knight of the Black Rose, something like fourteen years ago. I've thought more than once that I was done with it, but ended up getting sucked back into the Mists, for stays of varying lengths.
I suspect that the Kargatane crew is likely in the same situation, at least I would hope so.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by Walden
Life is long.
Seriously, who is working on Ravenloft these days?
I know Ms. Cassada and Ms. Rea are at the head and that they just brought back Mr. Miller, but who else is there?
I don't know, really, as I'm in my own little cave, typing away, and I only know who else has contributed to the first couple of books I've contributed to--and you've already seen most of their names on other RL3E releases. But...
I hear that Skip and Penny Williams (from TSR and WotC) are working on stuff. I also hear that Harold Johnson (who was my creative director when I was working on things like "The Evil Eye," "When Black Roses Bloom," "Cirlce of Darkness," and "Children of the Night: Vampires"... and Harold had a hand in "House of Gryphon Hill"). I also understand that Dale Donovan (also formerly of TSR and WotC) will be working on Ravenloft in some capacity or another.
There are plenty of talented folks who are turning to work on Ravenloft. Like I've said before, it's a shame that the Kargatane are heading off to do other things, but I also understand that sometime's it's just time to move on. I don't think Ravenloft 3E is doomed, by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't think Ravenloft 3E is doomed, by any stretch of the imagination.
Hearing this from you and Mr. Lowder make me feel very relieved.
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
I hear that Skip and Penny Williams (from TSR and WotC) are working on stuff. I also hear that Harold Johnson (who was my creative director when I was working on things like "The Evil Eye," "When Black Roses Bloom," "Cirlce of Darkness," and "Children of the Night: Vampires"... and Harold had a hand in "House of Gryphon Hill"). I also understand that Dale Donovan (also formerly of TSR and WotC) will be working on Ravenloft in some capacity or another.
Skip and Penny are very, very talented. Dale, I think, has mostly been doing copyedits and checking 3e stats, but I'll have to ask him next time we talk. And Harold--wow, I hadn't realized he was still doing design. That's great.
And, of course, I take it as a very good sign that you are working on the line, too, Steve.
In my experience, the people at WW running the RL line do care about the products--intensely. Clearly the Kargatane folks have had their differences with the direction things are taking, but there are times in any long-running line where passionate writers will find that they have to step away for a while. Hopefully the parting will not be such that a return is ruled out on either side. As I said above--life is long ;)
Thanks for posting, Steve.
Cheers,
Jim
Steve, James, your words are the most encouraging thing I've heard here in a long time. You're really helping me coping with my pessimistic thoughts regarding the setting.
Oh, and James, I found Prince of Lies really captivating! (just thought I'd say that)
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
Oh, and James, I found Prince of Lies really captivating! (just thought I'd say that)
Thanks, Keg. It's certainly one of the most Ravenloft-like books in the Realms line ;)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by Keg of Ale
Steve, James, your words are the most encouraging thing I've heard here in a long time. You're really helping me coping with my pessimistic thoughts regarding the setting.
Oh, and James, I found Prince of Lies really captivating! (just thought I'd say that)
I had forgotten about prince of lies that was a good book ("have your knights write an ode to their loved ones, like theirs swords or their horses") (note thats an approximate quote I don't have it on me right now).
And the news from steve miller is good news.
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
I had forgotten about prince of lies that was a good book ("have your knights write an ode to their loved ones, like theirs swords or their horses") (note thats an approximate quote I don't have it on me right now).
Thanks for the kind words. It's always astounding to me that someone might remember something I wrote like that. Wow.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
-Eric Gorman
Good luck in your endevours.
Originally posted by James Lowder
And, of course, I take it as a very good sign that you are working on the line, too, Steve.
Time will tell!
I've been wanting to come back to Ravenloft... well, I neve wanted to leave the in the first place!
I've been wanting to be involved since the line was revived, but it wasn't until just recently that it worked out scheduling-wise. Now, I'm hoping that I'll be able to contribute steadily from here on in.
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
Time will tell!
I've been wanting to come back to Ravenloft... well, I neve wanted to leave the in the first place!
I've been wanting to be involved since the line was revived, but it wasn't until just recently that it worked out scheduling-wise. Now, I'm hoping that I'll be able to contribute steadily from here on in.
I'm hoping that too. In fact, I think it's great that several authors with past experience with Ravenloft get to work on the line.
It has been said elsewhere that the unexperienced authors and developers need some time to "get the feel" of Ravenloft, and I agree. But I also think it's a good idea to mix in some old blood in all this new, to help maintain the feel of the line, and maintain a steady quality while new writers can learn to truly do the best campaign setting ever justice.
So: welcome, all new and old authors, and adeui all who must leave. We hope to see you back soon!
Oh, and Andrew: as the Fraternety said: the USS is, and will hopefully remain, always open to contributions from fans of Ravenloft, whether they usually get paid for writing for the line or not. (Hey, that goes for any of you professional writers, I'd like nothing more than to see your work appear in USS for free... :D)
It occurs to me that relatively few of you probably know which parts of the books I worked on actually reflect my work, given the way the credits are done, so this seems as good a time and place as any to peel back the curtain and give my full bibliography on the line:
Ravenloft Campaign Setting: Chapters 5 and 6 were mine. Yes, I was the one who reworked the monster rules none of you wanted to see in there.
Secrets of the Dread Realms: I did the text, but not the stat conversions, for: Gabrielle Aderre, Anhktepot, Ivana Boritsi, Dominic d'Honaire, Ivan Dilisnya, Vlad Drakov, Hazlik, Harkon Lukas, Jacqueline Renier, Alfred Timothy, and Strahd.
I also wrote the infamously missing DM material for the book, which was cut and ended up in the RL DMG instead.
Denizens of Darkness: The Carrionette and the Zombie Lord. Incidentally, I ended up doing these specific monsters because I also did the write-ups for Maligno and Anton Misroi for SDR, two of many lords we wrote up for that book that ended up on the cutting room floor.
Van Richten's Arsenal: Chapter Six, and the write-up for Jameld. A companion piece to my work in the RCS.
Ravenloft Gazetteer I: Forlorn and Hazlan were split between me and Chris Nichols; telling you which parts were mine and which were his would require a map. I can tell you that I wrote up Tristen and he updated Hazlik. Everything else is pretty heavily mixed.
Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide: As noted, my DMs material for SDR ended up here instead, in Chapter One, with John Mangrum adding extra material. The Crossover Campaigns, Thirteen Techniques for Terror, and Pacing sections were all going to appear in SDR in more abbreviated formats. Again, separating my words from John's would require a map. Unfortunately, I got left off the credits.
Ravenloft Gazetteer V: As previously announced, the Nova Vaasa section of this book was written by yours truly. It was completed and turned in weeks ago, so that's all he wrote!
good luck anyway, sure you'll get some better gigs on down the line.
As well, I am now quite curious as to how Anhktepot turned out, since he didn't make it into Secrets of the Dread Realms.
Finally, I look forward to your vision of Nova Vassa to see if it's similar to mine (I think it will be, looking back at your previous work).
Re: Anhktepot, that's what I get for constructing the list without the actual book in front of me.
The other characters I wrote that got cut for space were Malocchio, Tristen ApBlanc, Arijani, Diamabel, Elena Faith-hold, and Yagno Petrovna. And that just accounts for my half.
(Note, when I speak of "my half," I'm just referring to text write-ups. Andrew Wyatt did the stat conversions for nearly every lord, John and I handled the text write-ups and a couple odd stat conversions apiece.)
As you can see, we had much bigger hopes for SDR than reality could provide.
Originally posted by Andrew Cermak
Well, SDR came quick on the heels of the RCS, so we were preparing for it before we got contracts or word counts. We were told that it would be a Dungeon Master's book. From our D&D roots, we naturally associated "Dungeon Master's Book" with something of substance, not realizing until too late that what they had in mind was more of a "Book of Storyteller Secrets," a la the WoD line. Cutting back our material once we got the actual word counts was painful. Then what we submitted got cut even further. It was pretty disappointing compared to what we had envisioned, but there wasn't much to be done about it.
Hey, Andrew:
Save the material that didn't get used in a place where you can find it later. You may get the chance to dig it up and use it. Lord knows, my notes for Spectre of the Black Rose sat for years.
There's also the option of "filing off the serial numbers" (ie. the world-specific references) and using it for a non-Ravenloft product. The latter might not be possible with much of the material, but it may be an option for some of it.
If you have a question about rights, you might want to wait for things to cool down, then drop the WW folks a note and ask. If you were not paid for the material, they should be cool about letting it "revert" to you--especially if they had no plans to use it.
Cheers,
Jim
But I'll wait and see.
Originally posted by James Lowder
Save the material that didn't get used in a place where you can find it later. You may get the chance to dig it up and use it. Lord knows, my notes for Spectre of the Black Rose sat for years.
Actually, nearly all of what we wrote for Secrets of the Dread Realms has already been recycled. (The Kargatane never throw anything away.;)) Spells and items written for that book are scattered through Van Richten's Arsenal, the Gazetteers, the RL DMG, and the RL PHB. This is partly because including those items in those books was simply appropriate, and partly because we had to use those books to play catch-up with the lost information. With the exception of the remaining "lost" Island of Terror and Cluster darklord entries, I believe that the Ravenloft Player's Handbook marks the appearance of the last stragglers of that cut material.
Part of the reason SotDR ended up so overwritten is that our developer at the time initially gave us a page count that, due to a technicality we didn't grok, sounded longer to us than it really was; we didn't get more definite numbers until much later in the process. While not a major reason overall, that disconnect between we (relatively inexperienced) authors and our developer was what set our expectations down the wrong track.
Our space in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting was exceptionally tight; the reason all the specific spell entries in Chapter Three refer back to the General Guidelines whenever possible rather than spelling out alterations individually was done late in the process, simply to carve out about six pages of text better used elsewhere). Those space considerations meant we'd had to make tough choices about what to include in the RCS. We designed the RCS under the naive assumption -- entirely our failing -- that, since the info being shifted to SotDR was so vital, even if the word count came in long Arthaus would bump up the page count rather than just leave the data stranded.
(Darklords were the only element we were specifically instructed to save for SotDR, for posterity. Right up to our last book, we were also still following our first developer's order not to use the word "demiplane.")
Then, of course, as AC said, we started hitting inflexible numbers and realized that our plans weren't going to happen. The Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide is reasonably close to what we were pushing Arthaus to make SotDR into at the time, so most concepts intended for that book have since reached print. (Of course, the DMG isn't just a SotDR clone; it has a lot of original material never intended for SotDR.)
At any rate, this is the root cause of why the upcoming SotDR that Arthaus publicized ended up so different from the SotDR that actually appeared on shelves. I have no idea what happened to the poster map that was briefly (and unofficially) promised. I suspect that Arthaus simply had no idea of the extent of the info they'd instructed us to hold for SotDR; in the era of 3E, when just a darklord's statblock and portrait eat up at least half a page, I truly believe that our developer's expectations of what SotDR could include were as misguided as our expectations of what it would include.
Our main SotDR plans -- make that pipedreams, honestly -- that still remain orphaned, however, were our intentions to include full NPC entries for the darklords of every domain included in the RCS, simple rules for adventuring in nightmares, and a chapter reintroducing a slightly reinvisioned take on pocket domains, including several examples and their darklords (including the Nightmare Lands). That's why there's absolutely no mention of things like pocket domains or the Nightmare Lands in the RCS. We wrote the RCS knowing we wouldn't have space to do them justice and expecting to be able to cover them fully in the next book.
Most of this had to be abandoned so early on that they never progressed past the notebook-jotting stage. We did write up many, many more darklords than appear in SotDR, however. You can tell which ones were written but not included because the sidebar at the beginning of SotDR offering one-liner descriptions of all the darklords only list names for darklords we'd hoped to include.
Thank you, John, for an excellent summary.
So another question has come to mind (and please forgive me if this has already been answered). Are any of the Kargatane still working on the line? Stuart, Ryan, Chris, or Andrew W.?
Ravenloft Campaign Setting: I wrote all of the vignettes save for the first, all of which were originally planned to accompany full-page splash illustrations; I didn't know that they wouldn't until the book was published, for sake of trivia. The first vignette (The Tome of Strahd), was obviously taken from I:6 Ravenloft, by Tracy & Laura Hickman. Every set of the RL core rules had included it, and since part of my focus was to "go back to the Black Box," distilling the best aspects of every incarnation of the setting that had gone before, I could think of no better tribute than to open the book with the Hickmans' classic prose.
(As a note, we were as unhappy as the slighted authors themselves when we discovered that Ravenloft's original creators hadn't been acknowledged, and immediately brought that issue to light, which is why thanks appeared -- with a bang -- in Denizens of Darkness.)
I also wrote Chapters One, Two, and Three. As a note, yes, calibans are a nod to twisted gents of Gothic (and related) tales such Quasimodo, Igor and, obviously, Shakespeare's Caliban from The Tempest. Using the name Caliban was my tribute to Shakespeare -- I simply assumed everyone would get the reference -- which is why it rankled when one guy said it had been cheap of us to crib from Shakespeare without acknowledging him.
The infamous giogoto/giomorgo goof also originates with me. Shame it wasn't caught further down the production chain.
I think Steve Miller contibuted a feat, by the by.
Oh; in hindsight -- and this is just me; by the time I came to the decision, we weren't in a position to worry it, so I've never even mentioned this to the Kargatane -- I would make pistols simple weapons and muskets martial weapons. I would then tie the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat into Cultural Levels; if you try to use a weapon from a CL you aren't familiar with, you need an Ex. Weap. Prof. feat with that weapon or suffer the normal penalties for nonproficiency. To be familiar with a CL, you'd need to come from such a region or live in such a culture for a year. Parthian weapons still need the feat regardless, however.
Oh, and I think Andrew Wyatt wrote the Death by Pitchfork sidebar.
The Final Thoughts section of Chapter One is something I suddenly jotted up over lunch one day, refined from questionaires I used in my own campaign, way back.
I contributed bits and bobs of text to the back half the book, though of course we tightly coordinated our efforts, so there's ideas from everyone in sections everyone else wrote.
Primarily I just performed my usual "shadow developer" work. You see, in our Kargatane roles, we were primarily an editing/developing team for netbooks, and we carried much of that structure to our Arthaus duties. By "shadow developer" work I mean I would go through everyone's chapters as they were completed, massaging them to fix errors, flesh out good bits, maintain a consistent tone throughout the book, etc. Essentially, I would habitually do a fair chunk of the developer's job, often to their consternation.
Secrets of the Dread Realms: As AC said, the Andrews and I split up the darklords. While Wyatt constructed the game mechanics, Cermak and I divided the text entries between us, perhaps adding a few stats here and there. We used the old schoolyard system of kids naming teammates to make our selections; I don't remember who got "chosen last" by each of us. I also wrote up a bunch of spells, magic items, and PC rules, all of which has now appeared elsewhere. Did "shadow developer" duty again.
Denizens of Darkness: Officially, I wrote up the marikith and the vampire strains. This is the one time my "shadow developer" work came to the fore and I received a developer's credit. This book was a near disaster in its initial draft, and I raced through it, rewriting just about every monster to some degree. A few just needed a few typos fixed; others had no combat sections, or used 2nd edition rules, or had little or absolutely no resemblance to the 2E creatures they were supposed to represent. I had to rewrite numerous monsters essentially from the ground up; the Kargatane used to to this with the BoS netbooks as well, when it was necessary to save an author's good ideas from his lack of grammar (often arising from valiant but limited efforts to write in English as a second language; Ravenloft had a lot of Brazlian fans, as it happened).
By the end, my "redlines" left the DoDark soaked in gore, so to speak. I reckon my credit here is due to the stink I raised at the time. Heck, my changes would have been even more extensive if at the time I'd known they were actually going to be used.
Oh, and I also laid out the basics talking points of the Introduction.
Van Richten's Arsenal: This was the last book our original developer officially set on the schedule, as I recall. At the time, I must confess, I thought it was a really bad idea, though I couldn't be more pleased that we proved me wrong.
Specifically, I was concerned that publishing Van Richten non-Guides would weaken the Van Richten "brand" (an over-reaction on my part), and that having to describe the game mechanics of spells and magic items in-character would be a nightmare. (On that count, I turned out to be right, and a few layout errors -- concerning material that should be in DM boxes but isn't -- are my only lasting regrets.)Anyway; it was Andrew Wyatt who cracked the right approach to take with the book to distinguish it from the Van Richten Guides. (Namely, having the Weathermay twins compile multiple authors, as opposed to the guides, which they would write themselves, following Van Richten's style.)
I wrote the Introduction, Chapter One, Chapter Four, and the NPC entries for Gennifer & Laurie Weathermay-Foxgrove, George Weathermay, and Agatha Clairmont, and the usual shadow developer stuff.
The Ravenloft Gazetteers have been the Kargatane's baby for a long time. In the latter 2E era, Ravenloft fans clamored for WotC to publish gazetteers for Ravenloft. The WotC Kargat put their first gazetteer on their internal development schedule in the last days of the line. I believe the gazetteers would have been written by members of Azalin's Kargat, but that's all we know about WotC's specific plans. (We don't even know if the plans had progressed that one point yet.) Anyway, in the brief period when we actually held the reins of the setting, the Gazetteers were a major part of our plans. We had S and the metaplot worked out in fairly sharp detail by the time Arthaus picked up the license.
We sent a product proposal to our original developer (shortly before he handed off the reins), setting out formats, narrator info, the entire metaplot in broad strokes, the works. The developers refined our chapter outline and nailed down the number of domains per book. Since then the overarching plan has changed in only minor detail. (In other words, we ain't making this story up as we go along, to say the least.)
Really, the only significant change our first developer made to our "grand scheme" was to start in Barovia rather than Darkon, which makes sense. In other words, by our original plan, the domains covered would have been in order of Gaz II, Gaz III, Gaz IV, Gaz I, Gaz V, before continuing onward.
Ravenloft Gazetteer I: I wrote the Foreword and Kartakass, as well as contributing a bit to Hazlan and doing my usual shadow developer work. (Whoever writes a chapter generally also writes the related material in the Attached Notes as well.)
I helped create the outlines for Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light, including suggesting the inclusions of Carnival and Jander Sunstar in ChoD. We had no significant involvement in either books after that early stage, however.
Ravenloft Gazetteer II: I wrote the Foreword and Darkon and did my usual shadow developer work. This is where the drain of working on the Gazetteers started to affect me, and it was toward the completion of my work on this book that I lost consciousness in a restaurant, whacked my head on the floor, and spent the rest of that lazy Sunday afternoon strapped to a trauma board in the emergency room of my local hospital. (It was a fainting spell brought on by exhaustion, for the record.)
Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead: I proposed this book (along with the upcoming Guide to the Shadow Fey; you can see the hint in VRA) and did my usual shadow developer work on Ryan's half of the book.
Ravenloft Gazetteer III: I wrote the Foreword and a little material in the Attached Notes, as well as doing my usual shadow developer work on Richemulot and a very limited form of it on Mordent. All cards on the table: that Gaz III's forth domain, Borca, failed to appear in this book is entirely, 100%, my fault, and this is no small failing on my part. The fact of the matter is that I'd been looking forward to writing up Mordent for years, and when I lost that opportunity, it broke my heart. I ended up spending week after week staring at a computer screen, desperately trying to recapture my inspiration. (That said, I'm perfectly satisfied with the Borca that I did belatedly produce.)
Ravenloft Gazetteer IV: Borca moved here, and I did my usual shadow developer work on the whole book.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Secrets of the Dread Realms: As AC said, the Andrews and I split up the darklords. While Wyatt constructed the game mechanics, Cermak and I divided the text entries between us, perhaps adding a few stats here and there. We used the old schoolyard system of kids naming teammates to make our selections; I don't remember who got "chosen last" by each of us.
Easan was your last pick. I got stuck with Maligno.
Of course, at least they were on the shortlist. Many others weren't.
I really wish you well in other D&D products writing, and please let us know of your other work at the FoS site, as we will be happy to follow you in other ventures.
Do you mind if I take these 'insider's notes' for the FoS site, in the review section, with each appropriate book ?
Joël
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
(Whoever writes a chapter generally also writes the related material in the Attached Notes as well.)
Hmmm. I believe know I know why the attached notes had something of a rag-tag feel, then. Please don't blame me for that little negative review. Its so small compaired to the great stuff the kargatane has given us...
Like Gotten said, it feels good to be informed of the Ravenloft progression from a writer's point of view. Are individual members of the kargatane planning to work for other roleplaying games or settings in the future? That would actually incite me to expand my d20 collection
(I eventually bought some 2e pdfs). Now I know why they weren't in there. Ah well.Man, that's dedication.
That aside, thanks for all the info. It's actually very engrossing.
Again, at the risk of being labeled a fan boy, I would like to let you know that I would have loved to see your version of Mordent. Although the existing one is well done, I don't think it captures the "spirit" (no pun intended) of the domain that you might have perhaps brought to it.
A question for you John. Did you write the remarks that Azalin makes throughout the Gazetteers? If so, are these sorts of comments made after the authors write the domains, and you just sort of go through and make quips as you find good spots? Or are they all planned out in the beginning?
BTW, Mark, your earlier question, regarding what Kargatane are still working on the line, has been brought to the attention of the individuals concerned. Whether they answer is up to them as individuals; I won't speak for anybody else on this subject.
Originally posted by Gotten
Do you mind if I take these 'insider's notes' for the FoS site, in the review section, with each appropriate book ?
I've no issues with this. John?
Originally posted by Andrew Cermak
I've no issues with this. John?
In fact, I'll do better then that - I will send you a PM soon.
Joël
Originally posted by Mortavius
John, I had no idea that you fainted like that in a restaurant
Well, JWM hinted of health problems linked to fatigue before, but me neither I would have guessed something that serious.
That is indeed dedication. As a fan, I'm more then grateful.
Joël
Originally posted by Mortavius
John, I had no idea that you fainted like that in a restaurant. Is that what some of the trolls in the other threads are referring to when they speak of you and the hospital?
Yes, that was it.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
So, has John left the line or not? I'm not sure from this thread.
I announced that I was leaving as we shut down the SotK website.
I hope the others stay on. (of course, It'd be understandable if they didn't, in light of recent events).Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I announced that I was leaving as we shut down the SotK website.
Ah. I missed the last night on the K, busy serving drunks burgers and all. Came up with the Mc Arsenic and the Mc Untracable Poison to kill off annoying customers though.
Once again my fears and the quote "This ain't your momma's Ravenloft" rise and fill me with dread.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Quick question though. If you're not going to be working on Ravenloft line anymore, what are your plans? Do you have anyother products in the works?
I contributed to Gazetteers IV and V, and the Munchkin Monster Manual 2.5 comes out in January, I believe. After that we get into areas too distant to discuss.
Originally posted by Acolyte of Death
Do you know if any of the other Kargatane are also leaving the line?
As AC said farther up this thread, that's a matter for individual writers to discuss.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
I think I remember you saying you'd written a short story for the All Flesh Must Be Eaten anthology "The Book of More Flesh" or one of the trilogy.
As editor for the Eden anthologies, I can field this one: John submitted a story for the Eden zombie anthologies--a very good one, too. But it was, in the end, too long to fit into the books.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
But it was, in the end, too long to fit into the books.
Yep. They were asking for short stories; I gave them a novelette.
Someday I hope to find a home for it.Originally posted by James Lowder
As editor for the Eden anthologies, I can field this one: John submitted a story for the Eden zombie anthologies--a very good one, too. But it was, in the end, too long to fit into the books.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Wasn't it an open call for submissions? IIRC Eden put a message on their AFMBE site saying anyone could submit. Or am I mixing reality with dreams again?
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Wasn't it an open call for submissions?
Right. It was an open call, I submitted a story, it was way too long.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Wasn't it an open call for submissions? IIRC Eden put a message on their AFMBE site saying anyone could submit. Or am I mixing reality with dreams again?
Right, it was an open call. I got several hundred submissions for each of the books. I believe I can now claim to have read more zombie stories than anyone on the face of the earth ;)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
I kick myself now though.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Ah, I was going to write a story, but to tell the truth, I couldn't be arsed. I had too much personal crap at the time. I used to be into AFMBE, but I got sick of waiting for Enter The Zombie and the wild west book. I kick myself now though.
Competition for the Eden antholgies was pretty fierce (which was a reason length became such an issue--John's story was quite good, just too damned long. ;) )
The books turned out swell. The second was shortlisted for an International Horror Guild Award. Reviews, with one or two exceptions, have been stellar. Half of both the first and second made it onto the honorable mention list for the Datlow & Windling Year's Best Horror and Fantasy. We'll see how the third does when the next volume comes out.
Eden has been much more steady about releasing AFMBE products of late.
By the by, I wrote a novella for the All Flesh book Pulp Zombies, which has a sort of sidways Ravenloft tie It has a cameo in it from the main character of the Ebonacht Trilogy, one time scheduled as Ravenloft books.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
As one of the lead developers of the Ravenloft setting project for Neverwinter Nights, it's always been our goal to create tools to cover a general spectrum, something that is useful to all RL fans.
The Kargatane's efforts were the catylist of getting this project off the ground. All should know, this project wouldn't (couldn't!) have even been attempted or have gotten this far without the RL catalogue and john margrum's timeline. All the authors have also provided valuable resources and insight in response to my queries in flushing out details of the core. All this I might add, in their own time and for no personal gain.
now onto the printed resources-
For instance, for me personally, even without reading it -- the Legacy of Blood book coming out is going to be one of the most useful RL supplements I could hope for, considering how much use I've gotten out the few bloodline pages in Realm of Terror over the years. Same with Van Ritchen's arsenal. That thing is packed with so much useful info it's structuring much of the essence of our RL project. That along with the old 2E Realm of Terror book and the 3E setting book are like my RL bibles.
I have a vested interest in the fundemential differences of the passing of the current RL torch. Any light you can shed with that torch would be most helpful. Since I have gained from all the Ravenloft materials thus far in some way, what is it about this new incarnation that is so different that such drastic changes are being made? Again, I'm not trying to start a hate war or stir up any bad feelings, I would just like to know what is different about this new vision that is unfolding. If someone is able to discuss it in an analytical and rational manner I would be most interested in what someone has to say. This reminds me of the changes that rippled through the comic book industry abot 12-15 yeas ago that caused the bottom to drop out of it.
Thank you.
~Andrew Bator.
Originally posted by Mortavius
So another question has come to mind (and please forgive me if this has already been answered). Are any of the Kargatane still working on the line? Stuart, Ryan, Chris, or Andrew W.? [/b]
Given that I've only written for one book (Gaz III), I'm not sure if anyone had any expectations that I was doing more!
But for clarity, no I'm not working on any further Ravenloft products, and can't see that it's likely to happen in future.Stu
I've always wanted to ask - was there any S&S sponsored mailing-list for RL authors or was the bookwriting done with centralised control and your coordination entirely optional?
Perhaps such a thing could help some future authors.
Originally posted by Irve
I've always wanted to ask - was there any S&S sponsored mailing-list for RL authors or was the bookwriting done with centralised control and your coordination entirely optional?
We Kargatane authors simply continued to use the mailing list we'd set up to work on the netbooks, both for discussion and for securely storing files for easy access to all authors. Many discussions took place via ICQ instant messaging as well.
Originally posted by Mortavius
So another question has come to mind (and please forgive me if this has already been answered). Are any of the Kargatane still working on the line? Stuart, Ryan, Chris, or Andrew W.?
Like Andrew Cermak, John Mangrum, and Stuart Turner, I too am no longer attached to the Ravenloft product line. Andrew's reason of "creative differences" applies here as well.
Chris Nichols
Or, are you guys DONE with Ravenloft?
Just curious...
With this the question is no more who is leaving the line, but who still in the line...
Hang on, possible troubled times ahead.
Joël
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Tad McDivvit. FOR EVERY BOOK.
You mean by that???
Originally posted by Charney
You mean by that???
Tadd McDivit was the author of Champions of Darkness, and if I remember correctly, the one behind the Ebon Gargoyles? (At least. I don't know what else he's written.)
Drinnik doesn't like Champions of Darkness.
'nuff said.
Originally posted by malken
Tadd McDivit was the author of Champions of Darkness, and if I remember correctly, the one behind the Ebon Gargoyles? (At least. I don't know what else he's written.)
Drinnik doesn't like Champions of Darkness.
'nuff said.
So I guess he's saying that with the Karg leaving, Tadd McDivit will be there in all RL books.
Originally posted by Charney
So I guess he's saying that with the Karg leaving, Tadd McDivit will be there in all RL books.
Well, I can't comment on that any further, since I'm not Drinnik, but I guess he made a joke. You know those, right? ;) The point of the joke being that, with the Kargatane gone, all future Ravenloft releases will be much like CoD in quality and content. And this, to Drinnik, might not be... ideal.
Now do you get it?
Originally posted by malken
Well, I can't comment on that any further, since I'm not Drinnik, but I guess he made a joke. You know those, right? ;) The point of the joke being that, with the Kargatane gone, all future Ravenloft releases will be much like CoD in quality and content. And this, to Drinnik, might not be... ideal.
Now do you get it?
Actually I did ;)
Just... thinking outloud on the board!
Originally posted by Charney
Actually I did ;)
Just... thinking outloud on the board!
;)
I figured you did...
Originally posted by Ryan Naylor
Just so everyone knows, I may not be working on RL books any more either. I haven't decided finally yet, though.
Is there something we can do or say to make you change your mind?Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
So, with many of the good writers leaving the line, you guys (the good writers) do know that you're likely helping the decline of product quality that you're departing over, right?
As has been noted elsewhere, some of the people who have been tapped of late to write new Ravenloft material--Steve Miller, Skip & Penny Williams, Harold Johnson--actually have more experience as designers than the people who are departing. I am a big fan of the K, but I think that there's really no basis for gloomy statements like the one quoted above.
Moreover, it's not particularly fair to the K people to lay the future of the line on their shoulders. They have parted ways with the line over differences of vision and have done what they think is right. They shouldn't be asked to compromise their values for the good of the line; while the comment above does not do that directly, it implies that they have some greater responsibility to consider. Sorry, their first responsibility is to their own morals and their own artistic integrity.
Cheers,
James Lowder
1) Are well written.
2) Follow the internal logic of the setting.
3) Rely on previous sources and not pluck ideas out of the air and shove them in with out thinking what harm they could do.
It's not alot to ask, really.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
I don't care who writes the books, as long as they:
1) Are well written.
2) Follow the internal logic of the setting.
3) Rely on previous sources and not pluck ideas out of the air and shove them in with out thinking what harm they could do.
It's not alot to ask, really.
1) Agreed wholeheartedly. PLEASE no more Ravenloft Player's Handbooks.
2) Agreed.
3) Agreed. And we know this has been done before......*cough*RL PHB v3.5*cough*
~B4Real
Originally posted by Ryan Naylor
Just so everyone knows, I may not be working on RL books any more either. I haven't decided finally yet, though.
Well, I think it would be a shame, but if you're not happy working on RL, you're not happy working on RL.
Best of luck with whatever else you work on!
Originally posted by Ryan Naylor
Just so everyone knows, I may not be working on RL books any more either. I haven't decided finally yet, though.
*Echo Steve... and Jim Lowder, above*
You have to do what is best for you and your family, foremost. Remember that a career is measured by a diverse body of quality work, not the time spent on one product or line.
You're not a one-trick pony. You're a writer. So write. And write good. ;)
Although I'm sorry to hear that the various Kargs have left for various reasons, I'm sure it's ultimately to greener pastures. Don't look back... but don't burn your bridges, either. It's a small industry. We'll see you again.
As for the fears of the line gong to G'Henna in a handbasket... that shows great loyalty to all the Karg have done, but look at it this way: Jim brought you The Whistling Fiend and the Bloody Cobbler; Steve gave you the Gentleman Caller; Penny Williams edited the Book of Vile Darkness; and Skip Williams... come on, would "The Sage" let you down?
Just proves that The Karg are a tough act to follow.
Originally posted by James Lowder
As has been noted elsewhere, some of the people who have been tapped of late to write new Ravenloft material--Steve Miller, Skip & Penny Williams, Harold Johnson--actually have more experience as designers than the people who are departing. I am a big fan of the K, but I think that there's really no basis for gloomy statements like the one quoted above.
Moreover, it's not particularly fair to the K people to lay the future of the line on their shoulders. They have parted ways with the line over differences of vision and have done what they think is right. They shouldn't be asked to compromise their values for the good of the line; while the comment above does not do that directly, it implies that they have some greater responsibility to consider. Sorry, their first responsibility is to their own morals and their own artistic integrity.
This isn't quite what I meant, although I probably didn't word it well enough. What I meant is that some of the good writers (not all, of course) are leaving the setting over artistic differences - I'm making an assumption here and going with that means they're unhappy with where Ravenloft is going. What I was meaning is that if they're unhappy with where RL is going, why not stick with it and try to nudge it back in the right direction? I certainly don't think the ex-Kargatane leaving the line will cause its demise (that would be an insult to good writers like you and Steve Miller). But losing good authors will be a hit, even if it's a small one.
Originally posted by Bob the Efreet
What I was meaning is that if they're unhappy with where RL is going, why not stick with it and try to nudge it back in the right direction?
This is a fair question, but a difficult one to address without publicizing matters that the ethos of professionalism would require to be kept private.
I will say this: given the time, energy, and enthusiasm each member of the Kargatane has devoted to Ravenloft, both as fans as creators, the decisions to leave were not made in haste, nor were they made without first making efforts to address the relevant concerns.
In fairness to those who are and those who will be working on the line, I can't really say anymore on the subject than that. I hope it suffices.
In a professional, detached manner I would be very interested if one of the Kargatane can describe "their" unified group vision of RL is and where the line is currently heading that the two visions obviously no longer mesh.
We'll find out someday. Just be patient.:D
In a professional, detached manner I would be very interested if one of the Kargatane can describe "their" unified group vision of RL is and where the line is currently heading that the two visions obviously no longer mesh.
We'll find out someday. Just be patient.:D
While I didn´t like some of the other stuff that much (e.g. CoD and HoL, especially things like the Order of the Ebon gargoyle) I have some confidence that other experienced writers will potentially be able to write very good RL-material. But I am somewhat concerned that whatever the creative differences may be, it may be about something truly essential to the setting. In particular, I fear that future products will go for overkill - not just with NPCs like the Sheriff of Zarovitch but possibly with feats, prestige classes, weapons, use of terror instead of more sophisticated tactics and (perhaps most importantly) with the temptation to have one world-shaking event (like the GC) chase the last. I have hopes that I will be surprised positively - but if new products lost "modesty", I would be disappointed.
This reminds me of a recent discussion about how to do reviews - and I think J.M.W. had a few points there.
Only future will tell...
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
3) Rely on previous sources and not pluck ideas out of the air and shove them in with out thinking what harm they could do.
Last I looked, I thought Ravenloftwas just a game. A game we are masters of in our own living-rooms.
As in many posts about CoD or RL PHB - don't buy the book, or just ignore what you don't like. Just because a new rule is in there, doesn't mean it has to be used or considered. Here I thought that was the DMs decision. Players are picking up a book and the DM says- ignore p.59 I'm throwing that out. It doesn't apply to my campian.
Granted, the books should perhaps, at the end of each section label things like they do in the 3E DMG- Optional Method
Then, there can be no problems, even if a rule isn't what some consider proper for the setting. The only "harm" they can do is, if more content is unused on the whole then used, then they harm their profits.
Yes, we know well enough to ignore or modify what we don't like, but not all do. And "canon," which you all know we rely so heavily on, daffy, ;) , should present the version of Ravenloft that is closest to the common vision of the majority of the fans.
That is, we shouldn't have to always rely on our creative genius, free thinking and "DM's Prerogative" to make the rulebooks and supplements usable.
I agree that they could offer some optional rules, but then they should present them as such, not, like the RLPHB, come forward afterwards and point to some obscure sentence.
I deleted it though. On purpose. I even worked very hard not to be snide, sarcastic, or mean.
Instead I listed solutions, other ways of doing things, and then I just said- screw it.
I'll sum up with this- If you can't find a rule SOMEWHERE in all the previously released RL material -to not only cover a problem you may have, but cover very specific- nay most ANY senerio, and if you can't find it there and look in the basic D&D core books to answer it- and can't... Well I just don't know what to say to that.
Can you REALLY be surprised that any rules coming out now are only for very specific campains out there- Can you not be surprised that they are optional? Or that most decided not to use them?
All the basics have been covered. Many times. Even the developers really didn't want 3 of their 5 books this year to be rule books again. It was a part of the licence they have. They HAD to do it. Although I'm not going to use the rules either, in their defense they at least tried to throw in some new stuff for those that have the setting book. So maybe its useful. The last line mentioned its optional (going by what they said on the boards).
If they didn't add new rules- Most would be complaining that its a reprint of the Setting book. You say that now. you just say, its a reprint of the setting book with two new rule sets I don't want to use in my campaign.
3.5 for all products could have been released as a web resource anyway. There is nothing so earth shattering in it that calls for new books. It took what at least 10 years between 2E and 3E to come out? There is a reason for that. I personally think WoTC would have gotten more bang for their buck if they had released 1 - 3.5 book for everything. Like a D&D 3.5 Setting book- Something for all Realms. They could have even snuck some pages in there for systems currently out of print and THOSE fans would have bought it, but they didn't so no use grousing. The duo tried to give you a little extra in the book and many (most?) didn't like it.
Me personally- I'd adopt the OPTIONAL RULES header like the 3E DMG
And list things like these new rules as OPTIONAL RULES and underline that header in the future. At least the community gave me enough of an impression about the book that I feel I already own enough resources that will cover the bases I need, and they saved me $30.
So some rules don't work. Its not going to make or break a setting- anyone that picks up the book and says- Magic is dependant on BELIEF?
Screw that, RL sucks... and never picks up an RL book again ---well they probably weren't going to be that into a new setting anyway.
And in a way the rule REALLY isn't that out there in the DOMAIN of RL ideas/ rules-
Rules for holding a vampire at bay with a holy symbol are dependant on faith. Something Clerics and Paladins aren't used to- Why not do the same to the magic users?
It fuels the essence that all your preconcieved notions in the multi verse dont apply here.
Want some nice story material to build on this wonky magic concept? Read Larry niven's The Magic Goes Away & More Magic & The Magic May Return
series. Gives a nice scientific reasoning for wonky magic- or why magic could work better in one place then another.
With RL and its science, enlightened researchers, archology, chymistry, alchemy, etc. in the world- the magic concepts laid out in Nevins books would adapt well... especially since hes known as a science fiction writer.
Another option would be to check out the 4 volume series by Jack Chalker The Four Lords of the Diamond
On one of the worlds, magic exists. Its not real magic, but the person's mind would acept that it was happening, so even if it really WASN'T- dwelling on it and trying to figure it out would actually drive people insane. Again- concepts that could fit well into a more Rational -minded RL society.
Sorry that you would have to think creativly, and work on your own system, but reading different sources outside a RPG rule book can really help. All the RL rule books always said to seek out side source material for more ideas, and thats a staple of D&D anyway- i recall it being mentioned in my first run Deities and Demigods book too. The concept of magic acting differently could be made to work very well in RL... I see the new rule as a little suggestion on how one could bridge the Gothic Earth RL with the regular RL, and it makes sense that a company would promote its other products. Especially since that's how white wolf has always written its source books. Its their layout.
I'm betting if i picked up the new Gothic Earth book coming out- there would be a lot of material in the magic section that would flow into this concept. I have no interest in the Masque RL setting though. Its your world- you should want to work things out for youself- when you make it your own- you're able to present it better, wether you realize it or not.
I also appreciate that you did your best not to come across as too offensive.
I understand why they put out the PHB, I understand that it was a bit rushed to the press, but I don't feel that I need to excuse myself if I say that this shouldn't be common practice.
Originally posted by daffy72
Sorry that you would have to think creativly, and work on your own system, but reading different sources outside a RPG rule book can really help.
I think you know that's not the case. I'm perfectly able to think outside the box, but I think that we need to give the developers and writers feedback, so that they can think outside the box too. And by that I mean thinking outside the standard D&D box, and inside the very special little box that is Ravenloft. Ravenloft is tough to write for, it demands a little something extra of both DM and player, and as such, we need to express our discontent when we feel they aren't right on spot, otherwise, how can they ever get it right? (Of course, this also involves pointing out those parts that are good. )
All the RL rule books always said to seek out side source material for more ideas, and thats a staple of D&D anyway- i recall it being mentioned in my first run Deities and Demigods book too. The concept of magic acting differently could be made to work very well in RL... I see the new rule as a little suggestion on how one could bridge the Gothic Earth RL with the regular RL, and it makes sense that a company would promote its other products. Especially since that's how white wolf has always written its source books. Its their layout.
I can't really comment on the PHB as a whole, but the Magic Ratings, which were available as a preview seem OK to me. I might not implement them, but they're fine if you really want to play up the otherness of magic in RL.
Originally posted by Ryan Naylor
Just so we're all clear, the operative term in my post is "I'm not sure yet".
While it must be hard, I encourage you to remain. I have no rational arguments and I feel that I cannot help it all falling apart. I just think that whatever you have to write will be better as written by you than written by someone who has only the surface knowledge of the setting. "And not sure yet," is better than "not anymore" or "I've closed the door behind me" etc. I'm just somewhat relieved that you are still in doubt.
While it may be pointless for me to post this message at all - whatever happens, it's your call.