Anyway, on the page of this month's editorial it mentions that in the near future, David Noonan will author an article and adventure for Dungeon and Dragon magazines that "will present Dark Sun for D&D 3.5.".
Huh.
Eric Anondson
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Originally posted by AvatarDSO
ok.. then is there a chance it will contradict the Athas.org 3.5 material?
Well, if the Athas.org folks have zero communication with Dave Noonan with this, absolutely.
Dave Noonan's Defiler magic article already deviates from Athas.org's spellcasting system. For instance, it makes allowances for the sorcerer class. The t'liz is presented as a template, but it is an undead that is caused when a defiler accumulates 41+ defiler points. Defiler points are detailed in the article. Of course, it must be said that Dave explicitly states that this Defiler system is only an interpretation of the defiler magic that remains true to the spirit of the concept: that defiling magic is a constant temptation to take "just a little" energy from the earth in exchange for power. In other words, it's just an option to whatever you are already using... Yes, it does seem to involve quite a bit more bookkeeping.
Here's some more info on Dave Noonan's Defiler Magic article in Dragon #315.
There is no Defiler class, but any arcane spellcaster has the opportunity to defile. Defiling is an evil act. In game terms, defiling takes the form of free metamagic effects applied to the spell at the moment you cast it. There is a list of effects and costs, I'll list them here with associated Defiler Point Earned in brackets, [x].
Make spell silent [1]
Make spell still [1]
Make spell heightened [1 per level]
Make spell empowered [3]
Make spell extended [2]
Make spell quickened [4]
Make spell maximized [4]
Recover expended spell* [2 per spell level]
Recover expended spell slot** [3 per spell level]
Cast without paying XP cost [1 per 250 XP]
Cast withou expensive material component [1 per 500 gp]
(* Recover expended spell: you don't cast, but instead spend a standard action and recall one spell that you had prepared but have cast.)
(** Recover expended spell slot: As above, but for spontaneous casters.)
An arcane spellcaster keeps track of Defiler Points, and a Defiler Score. Defiler Points is the tally of the character's taint. A defiler score is just a running tally of the character's total points ever defiled over the history. Defiler Points (taint) can be reduced via meditating, reduction rate modified based on terrain.
One's accumulated Defiler Points bestows effects upon the character as such.
1+ DP: Suffer -2 penalty on all Wis- and Cha-based skill checks.
11+ DP: Suffer -2 penalty to Con. Strenuous action for 1 min.+, you are fatigued.
21+ DP: Suffer -2 penalty on all Wis- and Cha-based skill checks.
31+ DP: Suffer -2 penalty to Con. Alignment changes to evil is it wasn't already.
41+ DP: Become t'liz and fall under DM's control.
Depending on the number of Defiler Points earned when the spell is cast, and the amount of vegetation nearby, you consult at table to determine how much terrain is turned to ash. It goes like this...
Lush: 1ft x number defiler points.
Abundant: 5 ft. x number defiler points.
Fertile: 10 ft. x number defiler points.
Infertile: 20 ft. x number defiler points.
Barren: 30 ft. x number defiler points.
Lastly, there are two druid spells, detect defiler a 1st level spell, and revenge of the land a 5th level spell.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
I don't agree with the 'defile too much and turn into an undead under the DM's control.' Even if I used the rest of the system ,I would certainly ditch that aspect. It doesn't seem like it would take very long to become a t'liz.
ok.. then is there a chance it will contradict the Athas.org 3.5 material?
As seen by Eric's preview, its quite likely that all of the future articles will contradict the Athas.org team's doc. I don't think this is a bad thing really since it will at least give people another system besides Athas.org to use, should they not be very pleased with it.
Dark Sun.
I just downloaded (paid) a bunch of the older editions.
Ho and Sprue Rubbles, I feel sorry for you man.... It's so
to posses the real thing 
I'll just flip a few ink and paper for yah 
If it's miscommunication, I'd believe it. If they chose to do it anyway, that's extremely rude.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Ho and Sprue Rubbles, I feel sorry for you man.... It's so
oh rub it in why don't you... You know how lame it is to hole punch
them and put a source book into a bulky binder?
well, atleast I got the actual campaign boxed set and monstrous
compendium.
anyways, I have to admit that I haven't seen the updates from
athas.org, but I also agree with most that WotC needs to, at the
very least acknowledge all the work they have done.
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Sorry to ask but is this posting of Eric Anondson's preview on the Drag mag. # 315 legal on this forum i mean... I truly didn't know we could "copie" so much "details" from puplished material.
Good honest question. I would say that I didn't so much as "copy" are retype in my own words. There is a great deal more that I haven't typed up, such as the rate of removal of Defiler Points when one meditates, or the stats for the t'liz template. (Based on the rate of removal of taint when meditating, I don't think it will be a great issue.) You'll have to get the magazine to see for your self, the article is 5 pages full (6 with art).
This may be the best issue of Dragon I have seen in a long long time. There is a 3.5-based article for Kara-tur, Masque of the Red Death, Ravenloft, Maztica, Mystara (Known World), Planescape, Taladas, Red Steel, Chainmail's Sundered Empire, Al-qadim, Birthright, Blackmoor, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Ghostwalk, Greyhawk, Hollow World, and a tiny preview of more of Eberron.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Antra
What I want to know is, how did Wizards let this happen? They knew what was going into Dragon #315, and they knew Athas.org has been busting their tails on Dark Sun 3e.
Miscommunication or something else, *shrug*. Don't forget that no matter how much cooperation there is between Paizo and WotC, they are two separate companies. While the fanbases might view anything published for Dark Sun as a candidate for "official-dom", WotC may not.
Dragon's editor was taken aback at the fervor that many in the industry had for out-of-print settings. Based on the response he got back for articles for this issue, I would wager that Paizo put out feelers to see if there were any authors at WotC who would care to do up a mini-conversion of their favorite old settings for future issues. Dave Noonan has made no secret of his love for Dark Sun at past GenCon seminars.
Whatever comes of the future Dragon and Dungeon Dark Sun 3.5 articles, it will be from the pen of a serious Dark Sun fan from WotC, who has his own take on things, like everyone else.
Regards,
Eric Anondson
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Sorry to ask but is this posting of Eric Anondson's preview on the Drag mag. # 315 legal on this forum i mean... I truly didn't know we could "copie" so much "details" from puplished material.
Posting the whole article verbatim would be a copyright violation. Posting a summary of it is not.
Originally posted by guysery2000
Anyway, i personally prefer Athas.org system
I prefer my own that makes defilers a separate class (the way they were in 2e), with a faster spell progression and occasional boosts to caster level (+3 at level 16, IIRC - I don't have the writeup in front of me). Basically, they have one more spell per level available, and get their first spell of each spell level one class level sooner than regular wizards (so, at levels 2, 4, 6... instead of 3, 5, 7...).
Originally posted by Eric Anondson
Dave Noonan's Defiler magic article already deviates from Athas.org's spellcasting system. For instance, it makes allowances for the sorcerer class.
I'm glad to see this. I always thought the class was a good fit for DS.
It's interesting that defiling is being compared to "taint". I wonder if Legend of the Five Rings was an influence in these regards.
Originally posted by Antra
What I want to know is, how did Wizards let this happen? They knew what was going into Dragon #315, and they knew Athas.org has been busting their tails on Dark Sun 3e.
If it's miscommunication, I'd believe it. If they chose to do it anyway, that's extremely rude.
Probably a miscommunication. When Polyhedron did the Spelljammer mini-game, they weren't really aware of Beyond the Moons, the official SJ site.
I'm not quite sure what to advise the Athas.org team to do. Yes, there will be this one article on defiling and there's a possibility of a mini-campaign later, from what I've heard.
At the same time, these publications are periodicals, and not something readily accessable to fans. Not to mention the thri-kreen and half-giants becoming races for the Expanded Psionics HB.
I guess my advice is to consider the periodicals to be one alternative, then maintain your own system (which you worked so hard on) as a constant resource. Then make judgment calls on the Psi HB. You don't want people to have to buy tons of resources to play DS, but then again, you should maintain continuity as much as possible.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. I'm glad to see this activity with the classic campaigns, and I want to wish the folks at Athas.org the best of luck.
I wouldnt want to see such great achievement lost. I like what you have done and all the help the community as put together to bring DS to life. It would be a shame to see one person pass over all these peoples.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'm glad to see this. I always thought the class was a good fit for DS.
Given the history of Athas, I don't think sorcerers are a particularly good fit. Arcane magic is something that was invented, and doing so took centuries. It's not something natural.
Also, at least in 3e, the psion and sorcerer are quite similar classes. Removing the sorcerer makes the psion a bit more important, which is all good in my book.
As far as the statements concerning sorcerers in DS, i am kind of split on the subject. Would a sorcerer be possible? I don't see why not, though it would be extremely rare, and probably have something to do with the Pristine Tower mutating someone to harness their personal life energy to use magic. Would they be accepted? Not anymore than a preserver, and they would definately be hunted by the SKs and any defiler that hears of them.
Now, look at the sorcerer in Dragonlance. It's the PHB sorcerer, but instead of magic coming from within, it comes from the creative and elemental energies of the world of Krynn.
It just seems to me that all you have to do is redefine the power source. *shrugs*
Whatever the case, we should probably start a new thread on sorcerers if we wish to discuss this further.
The common argument against the sorcerer that I've heard (and perhaps there are others) is that a sorcerer's magic comes from within.
A little OT, but i think the sorcerer differs from the mage for the ability to manipulate and interact with magic energies and sources without teaching, thanks to an innate attitude, while the wizard relies on hard study, reaching different results (more knowledge and theory, less raw magic ability). Like the differences between a native speaker and a learned speaker
Plus, how can people suddenly be born with innate magic when before they couldn't?
But have you seen the Favoured Soul class in the Miniatures Handbook? They are a sorceror-like cleric, quite similar to Templar. It maybe appropriate.
Sorceror's deviate from the original campaign setting.
Basically the player's guide will be Dragon #319 and the DM's guide and adventure will be in Dungeon #110.
So let's see what we see.
Glad I have a subscription to both, heh, can see these selling out quick.
Originally posted by 16th ChampionPlus, how can people suddenly be born with innate magic when before they couldn't?
The Cerulean storm, death of Borys, death of Kalak, death of all of the other Sorceror-Kings/queens, escape of Rajaat, Dregoth rising from Guistenal. Loads of explanations.Sorceror's deviate from the original campaign setting
You are 100% correct. Does the inclusion of the sorceror class change things? I don't think too much. Adding a paladin class would be way off the mark, however; good for the sake of good doesn't work in Athas.
@NytCrawlr- Yeah that was the first thing that I saw when I opened Dungeon #108. I can't wait.
I don't have much time for Dark Sun nowadays, though I continue to tweak my own conversion now and then and take a look at what you guys have.
I was really curious to see what Dragon had done with the defiling system, something that caused much debate here, as I recall...
Frankly, I really don't get it. The system in Dragon seems WAY to powerful to even consider, when a character assumes the taint, anyways (which doesn't seem to have any adverse effect in itself). Am I missing something?
Basically it's metamagic on the fly, but with a cost now instead of being free like it was before (no this isn't what sorcerers do, sorcerers still have a cost, i.e. their spell raises level depending on how they metamagic it).
If you'll read the begining of the post Eric lays it out pretty damn well.
That's about all you're going to get to since we can't go into further detail without sicking the black helicopters on us, heh.
The only issue I have with the system as a whole is becoming a t'liz once you get enough defiler points and don't assume the taint.
As I explained earlier in this post (maybe it was the other), that can easily become a non-issue.
One of the best drawbacks of this system is you now have a way for people to detect defilers, other than waiting for them to cast spells. There are two druid spells that are used for detecting defilers now, and if you have ever defiled in life you will be detected, just depends on how much of the taint you assume depends on whether or not said druid beats you down. :D
When someone ''assumes the taint'' (which, as its written, seems to have no adverse effect other than allowing druids to detect you and becoming vulnerable to a 5th level spell of theirs, and can be done instantly at any time, it seems) he can freely use any metamagic feat (even if he doesn't know them!) as long as he has twice as many levels as the defiler point costs for them (which is always equal to the additional spell slot requirements of the feat). This mean a 8th level defiler could Maximize ALL his spells, ALL the time, and without even having the feat, mind you!
Even worse, he can spend a standard action to regain a memorised spell, with no limits to the number of times per day you can do it, which basically means defilers who assume the taint have unlimited spells, as long as they spend one round regaining a spell between each casting. When not stressed, defilers simply regain all their spells!
I really don't think I missed anything, as I've read the article three times to make sure. BTW, the mul female defiler picture of the article is REALLY cool!
So, for those who have the issue, I worked out a system for that system ;) that at least gives some disadvantage.
1- To use metamagics when defiling, you need to know the metamagic feat.
2- Assumed defiler points (defiler scores) grant the same disadvantages as defiler points. However, you can reduce your defiler scores in the same way as defiler points, but this requires twice as much time to do so. (this way, assumed defiler points (defiler scores) grant half as much penalties as defiler points, but take twice as long to get rid of. Also, you can no longer accumulate defiler scores in the hundreds without penalties (at 31, you were supposed to get overwhelming defiler auras... typical defiler would get that score in a day's work!)
3- Once you assume a defiler point, you permanently become a defiler. You cannot get rid of your last defiler point, and you always suffer from the penalties associated with it (-2 to cha and wis skill checks). Also, your spells always defile the terrain for half the radius of 1 defiler point. You do not gain defiler points when casting spells without boosting it with defiling energies, however. The only way to loose this defiler status is with a (atonement?) spell from a druid.
4- Preservers who defile can do so, but cannot assume the defiler points if they wish to remain preservers (which means they get more penalties more quickly when they defile)
5- The T'liz template is gained when a defiler dies with a defiler score of 41+ (not 41+ defiler points, and not while living), with some chance the process does not (succeed?) and the defiler simply dies. (10%?)
There. Allowing defiler points to be assumed without consequence is simply WAY too much.
What do you think?
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Though I do not intend to break copyrights or anything, I would like to point out that this system is far more powerful than simple metamagic on the fly!
And your races with their grossly gratuitous ability score adjustments aren't? :P
There. Allowing defiler points to be assumed without consequence is simply WAY too much.
What do you think?
While the Dragon system isn't perfect, I don't see it as so unbalancing as you do.
At this point it seems, more from experience than anything, a view of what is and isn't balanced seems to be more of a subjective view, and less of mathematics, despite what others think. I think more should be looked at then just the mathematics side anyways.
My two ceramic pieces...
P.S. I do like your version of the T'liz mechanic, though I'm still apt to kill it alltogether or replace it with something else.
Cute, little, mogwai (sp?)!
Gizmo rocks!
/me runs
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Ewoks. It must be Ewoks. Vicious killers of Empires everywhere. You know, they were from that one movie. Um, Star...something.
Hijack away!
God don't get me started on them, I prefer the original wookie idea more.
Ah well, Lucas can die and burn in hell for all I care, hehe.
:DI'm not old! I'M NOT, I'M NOT, I'M NOT!!!!
Oh! And frankly... I'm releaved to know I'm not the only 30+ year old chap to D&D. ;)
Originally posted by Jihun-Nish
Oh! And frankly... I'm releaved to know I'm not the only 30+ year old chap to D&D. ;)
No worry of that, half of my old group was 30+.
In fact most groups I have played in have at least one 30+ person.
Though recently, I joined a game with some freshman at school, which was an interesting experience. Apparently, saome of these younger kids can't or won't role play.
For instance, I used a voice for my PC, and they were amazed. I spoke in character, and they thought it was novel.
Yeah, and we were 8th level, and I received a bonus 10 XP "for style." Yes, I said ten.
If it wasn't for us older guys, well, I'd hate to see what happens to D&D.
Dont worry, you will all know in August ! A new athasian will be born to corrupt the the power of the rpg ;)
Originally posted by 16th Champion
I'm 25, and usually play with a bunch of guys around 30.
Though recently, I joined a game with some freshman at school, which was an interesting experience. Apparently, saome of these younger kids can't or won't role play.
For instance, I used a voice for my PC, and they were amazed. I spoke in character, and they thought it was novel.
Yeah, and we were 8th level, and I received a bonus 10 XP "for style." Yes, I said ten.
If it wasn't for us older guys, well, I'd hate to see what happens to D&D.
Ooooh yeah. You are so right here xlorep. Shoot them up, first person shooter and arcade game are destroying the mind of many young peoples. Originality is leaving the building. I dont know how many hours I took to read and translate my first dnd player handbook (I'm french with only english book). Of course, it was 20 years back, but now, they even have the PhB, DMG and MM translated and they can't even read them. They dont like RPG because it take them effort to read.
How is it near where you live? Much of the DM by now are about my age and rarely we will see someone younger try to DM...
My entire roleplay group is roughly my age tho. We tend to switch off from campaign world to gaming system rather frequently, as either I get bored (or frustrated) GM'ing, and the other GM starts up a campaign until he gets bored or frustrated, then we switch back. August is virtually tomorrow...Boy, girl, elfling,...
Me I'd go for a girl, so she won't be all crazy later with hockey, baseball, football, snowboarding, skateboarding,...
When do boys ever got time to read now a days??
Oh and I'm 24.
Me I'd go for a girl, so she won't be all crazy later with hockey, baseball, football, snowboarding, skateboarding,...
Er, yeah, because girls are so much easier to understand and handle than boys, especially when they're teenagers :D
My two year-old daughter asked me for a skateboard the other day. And from time to time she will mention"Dunnens and Draggens". Dunno where she got that from...
Hmm, maybe a dwelf would be a better choice.
Originally posted by 16th Champion
If it wasn't for us older guys, well, I'd hate to see what happens to D&D.
All these damn young whipper snappers out there just want to hack n slash and optimize their character to hell and back, and be the biggest, badest thing on the block!
/me shakes his cane
Last time I looked this wasn't Magic the Gathering.
Originally posted by Grummore
My girlfriend is 14 weeks pregnants and it's going right this time! (after two babies lost at 10 weeks each, it's hard...) :bounce:
Dont worry, you will all know in August ! A new athasian will be born to corrupt the the power of the rpg ;)
Congrats and goodluck to you and your girlfriend Grummore!
You're my favorite silly frog.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I'd go for a baby squark or sharg. Excellent swimmers; they could even compete in the Olympics!
Hmm, maybe a dwelf would be a better choice.
Baby mogwai all the way!
Gizmo!
Or maybe a baby space hamster, hmmmm....
I'm 46 (today) and I forget when I started playing D&D, maybe it was just called D back then. Memory is the 2nd thing to go and I forgot what the first was.
Originally posted by irdeggman
You are all just snot nosed brats.:D
I'm 46 (today) and I forget when I started playing D&D, maybe it was just called D back then. Memory is the 2nd thing to go and I forgot what the first was.
LOL.
Hell, you probably remember the old chainmail days then, hehe.
Or Dungeons and Dragons when it was 6 paperback books, heh.
Happy birthday btw.
I'm 46 (today) and I forget when I started playing D&D, maybe it was just called D back then. Memory is the 2nd thing to go and I forgot what the first was.
lol
Happy birthday!
And I am very strict about powergaming and like to slaughter the group (in the game ;) ) when they try too solve every problem with ego-shooting force
.Are there just DMs here?
Oh, and I'm 24.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Frankly, I really don't get it. The system in Dragon seems WAY to powerful to even consider, when a character assumes the taint, anyways (which doesn't seem to have any adverse effect in itself). Am I missing something?
I seem to have missed something as well.. I have no clue what the defiler score does apart from "keeping track of how much the character has defiled".. what's the problem with having it? it seems to be a big deal, but saw nothing to explain it.
Originally posted by overelemental
I seem to have missed something as well.. I have no clue what the defiler score does apart from "keeping track of how much the character has defiled".. what's the problem with having it? it seems to be a big deal, but saw nothing to explain it.
That and it tells a Druid how bad you are, but yeah other than that it has no real value.
I like what She-nad did with it though and made the Tliz based on that score instead of the defiler points score, works alot better IMO.
Hey, there's nothing wrong with tweaking a character a bit, as long as it fits the character's concept and personality. Am I the only one who walks the line between night (roll playing) and day (role playing) in rpgs?
Kamelion, how about getting your kids a miniature giant space hamster? (just tell them it is! It's a miniature giant...) :p
Heh - they'd love that. Anything with the word "space", "super" or "magic" in the name is a guaranteed hit
And if they don't go for it, I can always give it to the cats to play with...
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Hey, there's nothing wrong with tweaking a character a bit, as long as it fits the character's concept and personality.
Agreed, but doing that first before making the character concept is another thing, heh.
Congrats. Hope the little tyke doesn't turn your hair gray too early in life ;)
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Well, we all know the silly frog is going to have a tadpole, really . . . hamsters and squarks. Dreamland calls.
Congrats. Hope the little tyke doesn't turn your hair gray too early in life ;)
I just counted 3 of these. ARGL !!!!!!! Anyway, it seem to be that it's going to be a athasian girl and my girlfriend sister a boy. It is supposed that girl have a heart beat somehow higher than boy. Right now, it sound like that !
Originally posted by Grummore
I just counted 3 of these. ARGL !!!!!!! Anyway, it seem to be that it's going to be a athasian girl and my girlfriend sister a boy. It is supposed that girl have a heart beat somehow higher than boy. Right now, it sound like that !
Woohoo!
That's exactly what we need, more female gamers, hehe.
Rock!