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more fun with google

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 05, 2003 23:31:31 Because I am **** retentive here is some (non RL3E) credits for those who have participated in the production of third edition ravenloft books.

Note this info is from the pen and paper database (which is not one hundred percent complete (for example it does not include carnival).

Jackie cassada was involved in 4 fading sun books and 1 star trek roleplaying book in addition to over 50 of the white wolf supplements

Nicky Rea was involved in 4 fading sun books, 2 star trek roleplaying books and over 50 white wolf supplements.

carla hollar (of champions of darkness): 3 white wolf supplements

beth bostic(of champions of darkness): 1 white wolf supplement

tadd mcdivitt(of champions of darkness): 2 white wolf supplements

peter woodworth(of heroes of light): 13 white wolf supplements, 8 magazine articles 6 for white wolf, 2 star wars.

Brian campbelll(of heroes of light): edited about 16 wotc products(mostly star wars), involved in writing 4 fading sun books, 2 spaceship zero books, 1 star trek rpg book, over 50 white wolf supplements, and 3 streetfighter the rpg books.

steve miller: involved with over 20 d&d books, 2 extreme vengeance books, 1 fifth age saga book, 2 d6 star wars books, 1 paranoi book, 1 everquest book, a marvel super heroe books, 7 d20 star wars books, 2 white wolf supplements and the hercules and xena rpg.

john mangrum: 4 d&d books (carnival, tsr jam, munchkin monster manual 2.5, and draconic lore)
#2
walden
Dec 06, 2003 0:23:40 Hmm...

Noting Cassada's and Rea's heavy involvement with White Wolf is making me think, particularly in light of their attempts to revise core Ravenloft. I begin to think I may have an idea of what they were trying to do.
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 06, 2003 4:10:46
Originally posted by frandelgearslip

steve miller: involved with over 20 d&d books, 2 extreme vengeance books, 1 fifth age saga book, 2 d6 star wars books, 1 paranoi book, 1 everquest book, a marvel super heroe books, 7 d20 star wars books, 2 white wolf supplements and the hercules and xena rpg.

Actually, it was five Fifth Age products, and I don't know how they're filing "Dragonlance 15th Anniversary" or "Odyssey of Gilthanas" so there could be two more on the list. Also missing are "Hick: The Roleplaying Game," one supplement for "Traveller," one supplement for "Lord of the Rings Roleplaying Game," and about 30 issues of "d20 Weekly"

Steve "Yes, I Do Carry That Ego Everywhere I Go" Miller

#4
john_w._mangrum
Dec 06, 2003 4:34:21
Originally posted by frandelgearslip
john mangrum: 4 d&d books (carnival, tsr jam, munchkin monster manual 2.5, and draconic lore)

I also have material in Children of the Night: The Created ("Gestalt"), and I wrote the first Munchkin Monster Manual as well.

ETA: Oh, and I designed a shirt for my brother to raise funds for something or other for the Holy Cross lacrosse team back in '97.

ETA: Oh, and back in '94 I spent a few weeks pulling staples out of tax forms in the basement of NYS Tax & Finance. The secret to success was to come in 10 minutes early and get the good chair.
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 06, 2003 11:11:17
Originally posted by Walden
Hmm...

Noting Cassada's and Rea's heavy involvement with White Wolf is making me think, particularly in light of their attempts to revise core Ravenloft. I begin to think I may have an idea of what they were trying to do.

Really? Do tell.
#6
walden
Dec 06, 2003 15:02:24 I will (remembering that this is pure speculation on my part).

Unfortunately, the insane "crusade" of Mad Step Dad and his "allies" had muddied the waters (or should I say "murked the waters") on issues of the different Ravenloft writers.

When the world is degenerating into insanity, it's often wisest to take no sides at all.

(And, as an aside, yes, Wizards of the Coast needs to step in firmly on this board before the whole place is ruined. We do have a serious problem here.)
#7
james_lowder
Dec 06, 2003 16:43:34
Originally posted by Walden
Hmm...
Noting Cassada's and Rea's heavy involvement with White Wolf is making me think, particularly in light of their attempts to revise core Ravenloft. I begin to think I may have an idea of what they were trying to do.

Hi, Walden:

I know you're not follow this up with your theory, but I thought I might use this comment as a springboard to point something out:

The credit list above doesn't adequately reflect the fact that Cassada and Rea have worked for a lot of different companies, including TSR. Rea wrote the RL: Red Death Guide to Transylvania, for example. They have done a lot of work for WW, but they are also experienced freelancers, both in and out of the RPG industry.

And while they certainly have some control over the direction of the setting, this is ultimately a licensed line. WotC still retains control over things. So no one should overemphasize the fact that Arthaus or WW is involved. WotC allowed them to buy this license because they thought they would do a good job.

Ravenloft has gone through shifts in focus before. I can recall a couple back at TSR, one of which largely ended my connection to the line for about five years. Should it be darker, more overtly horror oriented? Should it be more friendly to the heroic sword & sorcery players who buy lines like the Realms? Should it be something else altogether?

If a fan doesn't like the direction the line is taking, he should write a *polite* letter to, first, the line developers c/o White Wolf, then to WotC. Clearly make your feelings known: "I have been a fan for the RL line for X years, but find myself less interested in the line because of X. I have already stopped/soon will stop buying the products. More products like Y will make me spend money again on RL products." Give specific examples, but keep it short.

Paper letters have more impact on editors than e-mails. They show more effort. If you are not polite, you will not be taken seriously. But if you're looking for a direct way to comment on the lines, that's what you need to do. Remember, the publisher will look at sales as a indicator of what works, unless they hear otherwise.

For mailing addresses, use the ones listed in the most recent products. If you don't know the name of the person in charge of a line, use "Attn: Ravenloft Line Developer" for letters to WW, and "Attn: Licensed Products Manager" for WotC.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
#8
walden
Dec 06, 2003 21:40:31 Don't worry, anyone. I don't think Arthaus's work on Ravenloft has been disastrous on the whole. They've put out a couple of mediocre products but many more good to excellent ones.

What I was doing was something that John W. Mangrum warned us endlessly (in vain) never to do: speculating on what was going on behind the scenes. I noticed Cassada and Rea's heavy work with White Wolf, including if I recall several prominent Vampire: The Masquerade books. I had noticed that the class disadvantages, specifically a unique disadvantage for each class, reminded me very much of the unique curse that each clan in Vampire: the Masquerade must bear (e.g. the Nosferatu are monstrously ugly; the Lasombra are so filled with shadow that they cast no reflection and must notably feat the sun, etc.)--a concept repeated in most of White Wolf's games, incidentally. Also, the general theme of the new class disadvantages seemed very reminiscent of Vampire: the Masquerade--a slow but inevitable decline into darkness simply as a result of the condition of the character's nature (being a vampire in one; adventuring in the Land of Dread in the other). I then felt it was reasonable to conclude that Cassada and Rea were attempting to inject a small amount of the World of Darkness game(s) into Ravenloft. Particularly since Vampire has often prided itself on referring to itself as a "game of personal horror." The intention of the new disadvantages was clearly to make the players feel the burden of adventuring in a land of such evil.

I then wondered even further about this (probably making an even bigger fool of myself). I think I recall*from the Kargatane site both Mangrum and Cermak saying how much they hated Anne Rice's books, didn't particularly like the World of Darkness vision of horror, and certainly were determined to keep Ravenloft as different from that as...well...as night and night (sorry, the usual version of saying doesn't work here:D) I surmised, Watson, that Cermak and Mangrum may have felt that Ravenloft was indeed taking such a direction and, as this was unacceptable to them, became one of the reasons they quit. (Of course, I'm probably wrong)

If there's any validity to this, I'd have to agree with the Kargatane here. Ravenloft and World of Darkness are not only different versions of horror, they're the arch-opposite ends of the spectrum. The primary difference is clarity of moral vision, and that is keymost thing that makes Ravenloft Ravenloft.

*a phrase you'll remember Azalin hated:D
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 06, 2003 22:18:34
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum ETA: Oh, and I designed a shirt for my brother to raise funds for something or other for the Holy Cross lacrosse team back in '97.

Would this be the Holy Cross in Chicago?
#10
zombiegleemax
Dec 07, 2003 12:36:05 The changes kinda remind me of "Dark force" points in the Star Wars RPG. Where you could call on the dark side and gain curruption, and there was a greater and greater chance the darkside would take over you the more you did it, and you would become evil. Every bad guy had at least 1 dark force point (Out of a max of six)

I'd be afriad they were getting the consepts a bit mixed up. But as you said, thats pure speculation
#11
belac
Dec 07, 2003 19:19:31 I think the class weaknesses are a REALLY bad idea, but I do feel the need to say that White Wolf's class weaknesses were inspired by D&D's class system to a large extent.

Check out D&D: Immortals (original D&D; you can get an early '80s electronic version of this book from svgames for $4 or so I think) if you want to see where the concept of class weaknesses might have come from. (In Immortals, I'm not talking about a weakness so much as I'm talking about the completely different ways that members of each class generally become Immortals. Fighters usually have to live out three lives as members of the wizard, cleric, and thief classes until they get to 5th level, for example, but other classes have different methods of becoming Immortals.)
#12
zombiegleemax
Dec 07, 2003 19:23:59
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
ETA: Oh, and back in '94 I spent a few weeks pulling staples out of tax forms in the basement of NYS Tax & Finance. The secret to success was to come in 10 minutes early and get the good chair.

I fact I also learned when I worked in the post office over Christmas a couple of years ago. Beats having a dead arse for eight hours.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 05, 2003 23:31:31	Because I am **** retentive here is some (non RL3E) credits for those who have participated in the production of third edition ravenloft books. Note this info is from the pen and paper database (which is not one hundred percent complete (for example it does not include carnival). Jackie cassada was involved in 4 fading sun books and 1 star trek roleplaying book in addition to over 50 of the white wolf supplements Nicky Rea was involved in 4 fading sun books, 2 star trek roleplaying books and over 50 white wolf supplements. carla hollar (of champions of darkness): 3 white wolf supplements beth bostic(of champions of darkness): 1 white wolf supplement tadd mcdivitt(of champions of darkness): 2 white wolf supplements peter woodworth(of heroes of light): 13 white wolf supplements, 8 magazine articles 6 for white wolf, 2 star wars. Brian campbelll(of heroes of light): edited about 16 wotc products(mostly star wars), involved in writing 4 fading sun books, 2 spaceship zero books, 1 star trek rpg book, over 50 white wolf supplements, and 3 streetfighter the rpg books. steve miller: involved with over 20 d&d books, 2 extreme vengeance books, 1 fifth age saga book, 2 d6 star wars books, 1 paranoi book, 1 everquest book, a marvel super heroe books, 7 d20 star wars books, 2 white wolf supplements and the hercules and xena rpg. john mangrum: 4 d&d books (carnival, tsr jam, munchkin monster manual 2.5, and draconic lore)
#2 walden Dec 06, 2003 0:23:40	Hmm... Noting Cassada's and Rea's heavy involvement with White Wolf is making me think, particularly in light of their attempts to revise core Ravenloft. I begin to think I may have an idea of what they were trying to do.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 4:10:46	Originally posted by frandelgearslip steve miller: involved with over 20 d&d books, 2 extreme vengeance books, 1 fifth age saga book, 2 d6 star wars books, 1 paranoi book, 1 everquest book, a marvel super heroe books, 7 d20 star wars books, 2 white wolf supplements and the hercules and xena rpg. Actually, it was five Fifth Age products, and I don't know how they're filing "Dragonlance 15th Anniversary" or "Odyssey of Gilthanas" so there could be two more on the list. Also missing are "Hick: The Roleplaying Game," one supplement for "Traveller," one supplement for "Lord of the Rings Roleplaying Game," and about 30 issues of "d20 Weekly" Steve "Yes, I Do Carry That Ego Everywhere I Go" Miller
#4 john_w._mangrum Dec 06, 2003 4:34:21	Originally posted by frandelgearslip john mangrum: 4 d&d books (carnival, tsr jam, munchkin monster manual 2.5, and draconic lore) I also have material in Children of the Night: The Created ("Gestalt"), and I wrote the first Munchkin Monster Manual as well. ETA: Oh, and I designed a shirt for my brother to raise funds for something or other for the Holy Cross lacrosse team back in '97. ETA: Oh, and back in '94 I spent a few weeks pulling staples out of tax forms in the basement of NYS Tax & Finance. The secret to success was to come in 10 minutes early and get the good chair.
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 11:11:17	Originally posted by Walden Hmm... Noting Cassada's and Rea's heavy involvement with White Wolf is making me think, particularly in light of their attempts to revise core Ravenloft. I begin to think I may have an idea of what they were trying to do. Really? Do tell.
#6 walden Dec 06, 2003 15:02:24	I will (remembering that this is pure speculation on my part). Unfortunately, the insane "crusade" of Mad Step Dad and his "allies" had muddied the waters (or should I say "murked the waters") on issues of the different Ravenloft writers. When the world is degenerating into insanity, it's often wisest to take no sides at all. (And, as an aside, yes, Wizards of the Coast needs to step in firmly on this board before the whole place is ruined. We do have a serious problem here.)
#7 james_lowder Dec 06, 2003 16:43:34	Originally posted by Walden Hmm... Noting Cassada's and Rea's heavy involvement with White Wolf is making me think, particularly in light of their attempts to revise core Ravenloft. I begin to think I may have an idea of what they were trying to do. Hi, Walden: I know you're not follow this up with your theory, but I thought I might use this comment as a springboard to point something out: The credit list above doesn't adequately reflect the fact that Cassada and Rea have worked for a lot of different companies, including TSR. Rea wrote the RL: Red Death Guide to Transylvania, for example. They have done a lot of work for WW, but they are also experienced freelancers, both in and out of the RPG industry. And while they certainly have some control over the direction of the setting, this is ultimately a licensed line. WotC still retains control over things. So no one should overemphasize the fact that Arthaus or WW is involved. WotC allowed them to buy this license because they thought they would do a good job. Ravenloft has gone through shifts in focus before. I can recall a couple back at TSR, one of which largely ended my connection to the line for about five years. Should it be darker, more overtly horror oriented? Should it be more friendly to the heroic sword & sorcery players who buy lines like the Realms? Should it be something else altogether? If a fan doesn't like the direction the line is taking, he should write a polite letter to, first, the line developers c/o White Wolf, then to WotC. Clearly make your feelings known: "I have been a fan for the RL line for X years, but find myself less interested in the line because of X. I have already stopped/soon will stop buying the products. More products like Y will make me spend money again on RL products." Give specific examples, but keep it short. Paper letters have more impact on editors than e-mails. They show more effort. If you are not polite, you will not be taken seriously. But if you're looking for a direct way to comment on the lines, that's what you need to do. Remember, the publisher will look at sales as a indicator of what works, unless they hear otherwise. For mailing addresses, use the ones listed in the most recent products. If you don't know the name of the person in charge of a line, use "Attn: Ravenloft Line Developer" for letters to WW, and "Attn: Licensed Products Manager" for WotC. Cheers, Jim Lowder
#8 walden Dec 06, 2003 21:40:31	Don't worry, anyone. I don't think Arthaus's work on Ravenloft has been disastrous on the whole. They've put out a couple of mediocre products but many more good to excellent ones. What I was doing was something that John W. Mangrum warned us endlessly (in vain) never to do: speculating on what was going on behind the scenes. I noticed Cassada and Rea's heavy work with White Wolf, including if I recall several prominent Vampire: The Masquerade books. I had noticed that the class disadvantages, specifically a unique disadvantage for each class, reminded me very much of the unique curse that each clan in Vampire: the Masquerade must bear (e.g. the Nosferatu are monstrously ugly; the Lasombra are so filled with shadow that they cast no reflection and must notably feat the sun, etc.)--a concept repeated in most of White Wolf's games, incidentally. Also, the general theme of the new class disadvantages seemed very reminiscent of Vampire: the Masquerade--a slow but inevitable decline into darkness simply as a result of the condition of the character's nature (being a vampire in one; adventuring in the Land of Dread in the other). I then felt it was reasonable to conclude that Cassada and Rea were attempting to inject a small amount of the World of Darkness game(s) into Ravenloft. Particularly since Vampire has often prided itself on referring to itself as a "game of personal horror." The intention of the new disadvantages was clearly to make the players feel the burden of adventuring in a land of such evil. I then wondered even further about this (probably making an even bigger fool of myself). I think I recallfrom the Kargatane site both Mangrum and Cermak saying how much they hated Anne Rice's books, didn't particularly like the World of Darkness vision of horror, and certainly were determined to keep Ravenloft as different from that as...well...as night and night (sorry, the usual version of saying doesn't work here:D) I surmised, Watson, that Cermak and Mangrum may have felt that Ravenloft was indeed taking such a direction and, as this was unacceptable to them, became one of the reasons they quit. (Of course, I'm probably wrong) If there's any* validity to this, I'd have to agree with the Kargatane here. Ravenloft and World of Darkness are not only different versions of horror, they're the arch-opposite ends of the spectrum. The primary difference is clarity of moral vision, and that is keymost thing that makes Ravenloft Ravenloft. *a phrase you'll remember Azalin hated:D
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 06, 2003 22:18:34	Originally posted by John W. Mangrum ETA: Oh, and I designed a shirt for my brother to raise funds for something or other for the Holy Cross lacrosse team back in '97. Would this be the Holy Cross in Chicago?
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 07, 2003 12:36:05	The changes kinda remind me of "Dark force" points in the Star Wars RPG. Where you could call on the dark side and gain curruption, and there was a greater and greater chance the darkside would take over you the more you did it, and you would become evil. Every bad guy had at least 1 dark force point (Out of a max of six) I'd be afriad they were getting the consepts a bit mixed up. But as you said, thats pure speculation
#11 belac Dec 07, 2003 19:19:31	I think the class weaknesses are a REALLY bad idea, but I do feel the need to say that White Wolf's class weaknesses were inspired by D&D's class system to a large extent. Check out D&D: Immortals (original D&D; you can get an early '80s electronic version of this book from svgames for $4 or so I think) if you want to see where the concept of class weaknesses might have come from. (In Immortals, I'm not talking about a weakness so much as I'm talking about the completely different ways that members of each class generally become Immortals. Fighters usually have to live out three lives as members of the wizard, cleric, and thief classes until they get to 5th level, for example, but other classes have different methods of becoming Immortals.)
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 07, 2003 19:23:59	Originally posted by John W. Mangrum ETA: Oh, and back in '94 I spent a few weeks pulling staples out of tax forms in the basement of NYS Tax & Finance. The secret to success was to come in 10 minutes early and get the good chair. I fact I also learned when I worked in the post office over Christmas a couple of years ago. Beats having a dead arse for eight hours.