-wn
Considering Pholtus priests i would allow them to marry but only with an adept of pholtus. Their sexuality would also be resumed to the necessity of having children (future Pholtus priests/worshippers....), and that's all.. (like in some integrist religion ;( )
That's just my point of view. The sexuality of the paladin could be an interesting subject... is he an adept of the masturbation or does he consider than sodomizing herectics like the chretians did in north africa during the crusades is not a sexual act?
Religion and sex... still of actuality.
;)
I was wondering if the priesthood of Pholtus had rules of celibacy similar to the Catholic Church, or if they were free to marry like other denominations. Like you say, though, they could be allowed to marry, but have special restrictions on who they marry.
Thanks, makoma! Any other ideas, anyone? Also, any input on this topic for the others faiths of the Greyhawk setting are welcome as well.
-wn
edit: I think because of the nature and spirit of their vows, paladins would be celibate. My understanding of a paladin is that he (or she) is to be focused on the defense of their faith, and the promotion of the ideals of their god. Paladins are adventureers by nature, so settling down and having a family seems to me to be in conflict with a paladin's mission.
Clerics and priests, on the other hand, tend to be more focused on a specific area of ministry, so settling down for them is more natural. The adventuring cleric, while he may be free to marry, may want to think twice about the impact his choice of occupation would have on his family. So the cleric might consider being celibate like the pally.
Sheesh, that's a lot for an edit. I want other people's ideas, though, so tell me what you think!
I would think that any Faith with such an emphasis on unswerving obedience and rigid order such as Pholtus would require celibacy of its priests and paladins as one of the best ways for a servent of the god to demonstrate his or her unflinching devotion to the cause.
I would even venture that they consider it infidelity to marry because priests should be "married" to the Church, and marriages to a mere mortal would constitute adultery in the church's eyes. Rigid religions tend to apply their rules across the board, so the rule that applies to mortal married couples, likewise applies to the covenant between priest and deity.
Now, whether or not the religion requires priests to abstain from sex is a different question entirely. My understanding is that early Christian priests, though required to remain celibate, often kept mistresses and even had children by them and the church had full knowledge of this. This practice lasted until doctrinal changes caused the act of sex to be viewed as sinful in and of itself unless done with the purpose of procreating, in which case it was okay because God commanded the faithful to be fruitful and multiply. I think priests having children out of wedlock became a bit of a political as well as moral problem with all those illigitimate heirs to clerical fortunes running around and thus the vow of abstinence as well as celibacy was born.
In your campaign, the priest or paladin's vows could depend on the region he or she comes from (I imagine the Theocracy of the Pale might have Celibacy and Abstinence vows, while the priesthood in Nyrond might only require Celibacy) or the time period. Maybe, pre-war GH Pholtites required both Celibacy and Abstinence but in the post-war era the ban has been lifted due to a decline in the population of Pholtus worshippers.
I've found that the religions of the Oeridians seem more akin to the patriarchies of the several Earthly Orthodox churches than the Holy Roman & Apostolic Church, aka Roman Catholicism. Combining that premise with the notion that the Oeridian culture shares traits with the homosexual interests expressed in the writings of Plato, see e.g. The Symposium, I suggest that the Celestial Houses of Aerdy eventually* came to pressure the Censoriate of Pholtus to prohibit the marriage of its priesthood. Thus the power of the princes of Aerdy was maintained.
However, after the Turmoil Between the Thrones, the churches of Zilchus and Hextor may not have agreed to this restriction. Alternatively, the church of Zilchus may have successfully rejected this stricture, while the church of Hextor may have the ban on marriage but rejected the ban on sex. Consider the situation of North Kingdom...
In the Theocracy of the Pale, however, I believe that the doctrine developed that permitted marriage. Recall that the church hierarchy therein mimics that of the nobility in other states in the Flanaess...
As for paladins, however, those dedicated to the Blinding Light may agree to celibacy. The Book of Exalted Deeds also has rules regarding this issue.
* I'm not sure when to propose this change. Perhaps it occurred after the first Overking was crowned? In that case the idea is a Common one...
Originally posted by Tizoc
As for paladins, however, those dedicated to the Blinding Light may agree to celibacy.
I thinks so, too. Paladins especially would be required to take a Vow of Celibacy, since they tend to travel more than clergy. I would think that the "stringent standards of morality" required of Pholtites includes dedication to one's wife and children, a situation not supported by an absent father, therefore the Vow of Celibacy.
Or do you see the Priesthood running a series of brothells that cater to elven clients. Get yourself knocked up, turn the kid over to the church, get forgiven for all past sins?
All those half-elven Pholtus worshipers would not happen naturally.
As an aside, isn't there a website somewhere dedicated to the Maturer side of Role playing games? Percentages for hooking up, gestation periods, inter species breeding etc...?
The masses are the breeders, not the spiritual leaders that guide the masses.
Still none of this means priests of Pholtus can't marry, just because Catholic priests don't. I just maintain that authoritative, dogmatic religions such as Catholicism and Pholtism tend to have strictures against sex, including Celibacy, because this is one of the highest sacrifices a human or any other mortal can make to show his devotion to his god. If one can really abstain from sex, then one definitely has the discipline and self-control to be considered Lawful anything. This discipline transfers over to other areas of moral living, too.
Not that I think this is a good thing, but just that it's a thing I have noticed.
If one can really abstain from sex, then one definitely has the discipline and self-control to be considered Lawful anything. This discipline transfers over to other areas of moral living, too
Thinking this way you can also force pholtus priest to castration, it would be a greater sacrifice and proof of devotion.
But i don't like the idea to report catholic dogme on roleplaying world. That's not very creative, i would prefere some "sacrifice" more related to the priesthood (for each god) it would add personnality and dimension to priest and paladin Pc and NPc.
Scarification, obligation to have a minimum number of child (for godess of procreation), to kill one human each full moon, to participate financialy or manually to a great construction dedicated to a god, to eat only vegetables, or only meat, toshave all his hairs, etc etc...
Etc etc.. it would be more interesting IMHO.
;)
Originally posted by makoma
Scarification, obligation to have a minimum number of child (for godess of procreation), to kill one human each full moon, to participate financialy or manually to a great construction dedicated to a god, to eat only vegetables, or only meat, toshave all his hairs, etc etc...
Etc etc.. it would be more interesting IMHO.
;)
Agreed! For ideas on what kind of vows you can have priests/paladins of differing religions take, see Mongoose Publishings the Quintessential Cleric. It has a great write-up on this and it gives you some guidelines to help stoke your creativity in this regard.
Yeah, one shouldn't import too much Catholicism into the game world, since the religions of oerth and the religions of earth have come about in completely different historical and cultural contexts. But it does prove instructive to study real world religions for ideas.
Originally posted by rostoff
As an aside, isn't there a website somewhere dedicated to the Maturer side of Role playing games? Percentages for hooking up, gestation periods, inter species breeding etc...?
You may have already known this, but in case you didn't, the Wizards boards have a Mature forum, where this topic may have already been discussed outside the context of Greyhawk. I'm pretty sure there are also discussions about gestation periods, interspecies breeding, etc. in the Mature Think Tank. (By the way, the recently-released Book of Erotic Fantasy by Valar Publishing also contains this kind of information.)
As for whether or not clerics may marry, I could see disagreement on this issue even within faiths. (After all, in real life, Catholic priests may not marry, but (at least some) protestant clergy can.) Maybe certain sects require celibacy, while some don't. Or maybe it is left to the individual, who may or may not choose to take a vow of celibacy. And as far as I'm concerned, that goes for paladins as well. The view that clerics and paladins may not marry or (gods forbid!) engage in sex seems to assume that sex is dirty or even unholy, and/or that marriage to a person necessarily interferes with devotion to one's deity. However, I think that devotion to one's deity can leave room and even incorporate marriage and sex. (Of course, to some extent, it may depend on the deity. I can't provide thoughts concerning specific deities off the top of my head; I'd want to review their domains and quirks, and I don't have my books handy.)
I guess I should have posted this thread in the mature section of the boards, but since I wanted Greyhawk specific information, I posted it here. Well, if a WizO wants to move the thread, I won't be offended. :D
While the Overking may eventually have limited marriage, the connections between the myriad princes of Aerdy, ownership of property, and marriage seem well established. With these ideas in mind, I reiterate my suggestion that the priests of Pholtus, Hextor, and Zilchus all permit their priests to marry and raise children. Additionally, I believe that the priests of Heironeous, Stern Alia, Velnius, and Procan all permit marriage.
In the Earthly context, iirc, marriage became prohibited only after several centuries when the secular rulers pressured the Church to prohibit the clergy from marriage in an effort to maintain the power of the noble families of Europe.
In the Flanaess, the Celestial Houses of Aerdi do not seem to have suffered this concern. Instead, the Celestial Houses seem to have incorporated successfully the several important religions. While some powerful priests may not be a prince, I suggest that the hierarchies of most religions in the (former) Great Kingdom include "princes" disproportionately. Recall from Ivid the Undying that the term prince includes a huge number of lesser nobility and those that marry them. These petty nobles are easily distinguished from Grand Princes, the scions of the Celestial Houses of Aerdi.
I would think this especially so in GH, where occupations seem more gender-balanced. Most people don't think twice about female fighters, whereas in our world, a female warrior (I'm thinking of Boedica and Joan of Arc, here), while not unheard of, is very rare and women are/were indeed considered inferior. Religious attitudes toward sex seem in some part related to attitudes toward women in general, which thankfully role-playing game designers for the most part have not duplicated, though fantasy artists have (chicks in non-functional chainmail bikinis!).
Fharlanghn does not allow his clergy to marry. It is too domestic of an activity, distracting them from their travels.
Olidammara's clergy would not accept the institution of marriage. Freespirited revelry does not mix well with it.
Wee Jas would not allow her clergy to accept another as equal, for she alone has kept the remnants of the Suel pantheon together. None are her equal.
Myhriss rose to godhood before becoming married. Out of respect, her clergy refuse marriage. Though they bring love to all around and preside over many marriages, they cannot have what they most desire.
Iuz's clergy is not allowed to marry. Such would be weakness. Their partners are to be oppressed and maimed.
An interesting comparison would be to see which gods have the largest or most powerful following, and see how it relates to their stance on marriage. For example, Pholtus has a large and powerful group of worshippers and he allows marriage, while Fharlanghn has a small following and doesn't allow marriage.
This branches off the main topic a little, but is still relevant, I think.
-wn