The moon gods had schemed to bring wild sorcery to the world in addition to scheming to bring high sorcery into the world. After all, they wouldn't have been able to have the latter without the former.
Something to think about when we discuss the lunar dieties and their preference to magic. Yes, they might prefer if people use high sorcery, but the simple fact is that that wild sorcery is magic and is still their gift.
Primal magic was born from Chaos.
Originally posted by ferratus
The moon gods had schemed to bring wild sorcery to the world in addition to scheming to bring high sorcery into the world. After all, they wouldn't have been able to have the latter without the former.
Wild Sorcery draws it's strength from the very arcane energies used in the creation of the world.
Besides, they're gods. Why not just provide High Sorcery, rather than take the long way around?
Something to think about when we discuss the lunar dieties and their preference to magic. Yes, they might prefer if people use high sorcery, but the simple fact is that that wild sorcery is magic and is still their gift.
Wild Sorcery is, indeed, still magic. High Sorcery is the gift of the moon gods.
Granted, my alternate scenario prior to Vanished Moon was that the arcane magic of the moons not only went to wizards, but to the world of Krynn as well. Krynn, in a way, becomes a "magic sponge". So Wild Sorcery would then be the arcane energies stored by Krynn, usable by sorcerers.
*shrugs* Moot point now.
(Page 198, Age of Starbirth)
Seeing the potential the Graygem possesses, Lunitari and her brothers Nuitari and Solinari conspire to use the Graygem to bring magic into the world, agreeing to bestow their own gift unto mortals, the gift of magic.
Anyway, Lunitari loses the graygem in 4350 PC, and doesn't found the order of High Sorcery until 2645 PC.
Now what specifically is the role of the graygem in providing magic? Chaos was the source that the world was forged from. Did the Greygem enhance this energy in the world from 9000-4350 PC? That's 5000 years of wild sorcery before Lunitari loses the gem.
Did wild sorcery only occur after the graygem was released? That means that Lunitari, Solinari, and Nuitari didn't in fact bring magic to the world (like it said they wanted to do), but instead merely tolerated it in a wild form for almost 2,000 years.
Either way, that's something to think about when deciding that the moon gods would simply go DIE DIE DIE! when dealing with sorcerers.
Originally posted by ferratus
*ahem* From the timeline in the DLCS:
(Page 198, Age of Starbirth)
Seeing the potential the Graygem possesses, Lunitari and her brothers Nuitari and Solinari conspire to use the Graygem to bring magic into the world, agreeing to bestow their own gift unto mortals, the gift of magic.
Anyway, Lunitari loses the graygem in 4350 PC, and doesn't found the order of High Sorcery until 2645 PC.
One can conspire all they want. Until they act, nothing happens.
Read around where it says 4350 PC, and it says that Hiddukel tricks a gnome into stealing the Greygem from Lunitari, and when the Greygem reaches krynn, that's when wild magic is born.
Did wild sorcery only occur after the graygem was released? That means that Lunitari, Solinari, and Nuitari didn't in fact bring magic to the world (like it said they wanted to do), but instead merely tolerated it in a wild form for almost 2,000 years.
It could be that they originally wanted to amplify wild magic so that mortals could use it. Then when wild mages went bad, they opted to go the route of the Orders of High Sorcery.
The only thing we know for sure is that sorcerers aren't going anywhere, and no conflict can last forever.
See the problem we have is that sorcery necessarily must be dangerous on the metaphysical plane. If it was dangerous on the physical plane, then we wouldn't have black robes. I mean, for pete's sake they do stuff like create sentient races and undead for the sole purpose of sowing destruction and death.
So thus the answer is simple. High Sorcery is a part of the universe and its laws, part of the stability of the universe, due to the incarnation of the dieties of magic in their moons. It is destructive, but it is destructive the way that storms, or poison or disease is destructive. Wild Sorcery on the other hand, breaks the rules and laws of the universe, and thus unravels it on a metaphysical level. It tears at the very fabric of reality.
Any other explanation is absurd because it makes weenies out of black robes and hypocrites out of white robes. Black robes should be dangerous, mysterious and ready to turn Flotsam into an undead kingdom, not semi-good guys who aren't really evil and destructive. The white robes should bear the responsibilities of goodness and justice, not serve as the pawns or willing agents of petty power-mongering gods.
So we have the reason for the founding of the 3 alignment conclave in the first place (rather than just making the destructive and evil practices of magic illegal). Of course, given that sorcerers aren't going anywhere, and are going to flourish, then we have several options to solve this conundrum.
1) Chaos is destroyed and thus no longer seeking to unmake creation, making wild sorcery perfectly safe. *yawn*
2). Wild sorcery has always been necessary, because the magic of creation must be balanced by the magic of destruction. (better)
3) The Conclave will always be too weak and impotent to stop sorcerers, so they just give up. (Not a big fan of this one)
4) The sorcerers are eventually crushed and driven into hiding, making them an unpalatable PC choice (The 5th Age fans will have your head).
5) Sorcerers are tested to be up to WoHS standards. (What is the point of having sorcerers if you are just going to make them de facto members of the conclave?)
6) The Wizards of High Sorcery evolve from an order of the most powerful spellcasters in the land to a magical police force, that sniffs around for the sorcerers that are dangerous. (Not a big fan of this one either.)
7) Wizards and sorcerers recognize each other's right to exist (perhaps due to reason 2) and become friendly rivals like they are in the PHB. (Probably the best result of the suggestions I've made).
Originally posted by ferratus
2). Wild sorcery has always been necessary, because the magic of creation must be balanced by the magic of destruction. (better)
7) Wizards and sorcerers recognize each other's right to exist (perhaps due to reason 2) and become friendly rivals like they are in the PHB. (Probably the best result of the suggestions I've made).
I would combine these into:
Wild sorcery has always been necessary, because the magic of creation must be balanced by the magic of destruction. Therefore wizards and sorcerers recognize each other's right to exist and become friendly rivals like they are in the PHB, and (unless the sorcerors create some kind of a training organization for themselves, maybe along the lines of Palin's academy) the WoHS still keep an eye on the most powerful sorcerors (just in case).
And if sorcerers are dangerous, on any plane, how can they truly be there to stay?
talking system-wise; what are the disadvantages of Wild sorcery vs the Curse of the Magi?
Originally posted by TranquilDarkness
But if the sorcerers are dangerous on the metaphysical plane, what kind of dangers do they pose?
Exactly the questions we need to be asking. I don't really know for sure. Wanna give a stab at it?
All we know is that if physical destruction alone is the goal that the conclave wishes to stop, black robes wouldn't exist.
And if sorcerers are dangerous, on any plane, how can they truly be there to stay?
I would imagine that the destruction of Chaos during the Chaos War fundamentally changed the nature of wild magic, or the nature of the universe. Otherwise, yeah sorcery would have to be fought into submission to prevent the final cataclysm.
talking system-wise; what are the disadvantages of Wild sorcery vs the Curse of the Magi?
Don't use the Curse of the Magi rule, it is broken. Your mage will spend more time unconcious than concious with that rule.
Originally posted by ferratus
Exactly the questions we need to be asking. I don't really know for sure. Wanna give a stab at it?
All we know is that if physical destruction alone is the goal that the conclave wishes to stop, black robes wouldn't exist.
Right. So we could be looking at some metaphysical destruction? Perheps a complete destruction, or an unraveling, not only of everything material, but also everything spiritual (past and present)?
That at least would give the Gods a good reason to be upset...Probably wouldn't be a high priority for mortals, though..
Or it could be that, even though Chaos him-/itself is gone, using the powers of Chaos, or the energy of Chaos is still extremely bad for 'the natural order of things'. Using Chaos promotes Chaos, and may even upset the balance...?
I would imagine that the destruction of Chaos during the Chaos War fundamentally changed the nature of wild magic, or the nature of the universe. Otherwise, yeah sorcery would have to be fought into submission to prevent the final cataclysm.
Chaos is and should be and remain part of the universe. No longer having Chaos personified...what difference will that make?
Is Chaos less or more chaotic with loose reins?
Has the universe become balanced in neutrality (with respect to law and chaos) now? Have the sorcerers become the personification of Chaos?
Don't use the Curse of the Magi rule, it is broken. Your mage will spend more time unconcious than concious with that rule.
Ah...right. Haven't really had much trouble with it yet...but that's more luck than anything else. I'll discuss it with my DM.
But noone uses any rules similar to the Curse of the Magi for sorcerers? Or Mystics?
Originally posted by TranquilDarkness
Or it could be that, even though Chaos him-/itself is gone, using the powers of Chaos, or the energy of Chaos is still extremely bad for 'the natural order of things'. Using Chaos promotes Chaos, and may even upset the balance...?
I like that idea better. In the end, the attitude of the conclave towards the chaotic magic is sort of like Paladine's attitude towards evil. Necessary, but must be continually held in check.
Chaos is and should be and remain part of the universe. No longer having Chaos personified...what difference will that make?
Is Chaos less or more chaotic with loose reins?
Has the universe become balanced in neutrality (with respect to law and chaos) now? Have the sorcerers become the personification of Chaos?
I don't know the answers to those questions.
The greygem is the source for all wild sorcery and so it is like ahuge battery for wild magic. Prior to the War of Souls it was loose in the world and therefore possible for someone (sorceror) to find it. If the greygem is a huge battery imagine the amount of power it could possibly have given to a sorceror who learned to tap into it. Now imagine the destruction someone could cause if they inadvertently released all this energy at once (war of chaos). If the greygem is the source of wild magic, and not the source of high sorcery, who would seek it in order to use it other than sorceors, or possibly renegades who understand that it can be used with high sorcery. Thsi would be a could reason to hunt and control these renegades and sorcerors.
Now that the stone is gone, then what is the need to hunt and control wild sorcery?
J.Blasingame
Originally posted by darthsylver
How about this.
If the greygem is the source of wild magic, and not the source of high sorcery, who would seek it in order to use it other than sorceors, or possibly renegades who understand that it can be used with high sorcery. Thsi would be a could reason to hunt and control these renegades and sorcerors.
That's a logical step I don't think we can take. You can't become a renegade or sorcerer because you might have an infinately small chance of finding this very mobile magical artifact? I don't buy it.
Otherwise, I've already said that I'm not a big fan of making wild sorcery "safe" now where it wasn't safe before. I like my wild sorcery to be a little bit dangerous.
This is just a suggestion for those Dms who want to "legalize" sorcery in their campaigns. I know in a couple campaigns I ran not many people wanted to run a wizard because at some point they would be pressured to basically "join or die, and maybe even join & die during the test."
Originally posted by darthsylver
That's cool and all Ferratus.
This is just a suggestion for those Dms who want to "legalize" sorcery in their campaigns. I know in a couple campaigns I ran not many people wanted to run a wizard because at some point they would be pressured to basically "join or die, and maybe even join & die during the test."
*grins* I'm a big fan of renegade wizards having a good chance of dying of old age in their beds. Cowardice is a motivation for many renegades.
I also agree that a compromise peace must occur with the sorcerers and wizards as well. After all, while we are looking forward to the sorcerer vs. wizard war, we need reasons that both an ambitious WoHS and an ambitious sorcerer can be in the same party, After all, you can't penalize a WoHS for being friends with a PC sorcerer, and you especially have to expect that he would consider turning in the sorcerer as a valid option, even as a white robe. That puts an end to party unity very quickly.
I don't want sorcery to be safe though. I don't want high sorcery to harmless either.
Originally posted by ferratus
I also agree that a compromise peace must occur with the sorcerers and wizards as well. After all, while we are looking forward to the sorcerer vs. wizard war, we need reasons that both an ambitious WoHS and an ambitious sorcerer can be in the same party,
I have to agree with this. Players will want to play both sorcerers and wizards, so what happens when they’re in the same party together? While you can probably role-play this out somewhat, it is somewhat problematic.
Clerics and mystics have a similar problem, but that depends on the god the cleric follows. Clerics of Mishakal can travel quite well with mystics from the Citadel of Light.
Don’t get me wrong, I think some strife in the party is good for role-playing. It’s just that the wizard-sorcerer relationship could result in the sorcerer being brought in as a renegade, or the wizard turning renegade if he doesn’t bring the sorcerer in.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Don’t get me wrong, I think some strife in the party is good for role-playing. It’s just that the wizard-sorcerer relationship could result in the sorcerer being brought in as a renegade, or the wizard turning renegade if he doesn’t bring the sorcerer in.
Ultimately this is no different than the one player in a group wanting to play a lawful good character and another a chaotic evil one. You have to settle these kinds of problems before the game begins, or risk a certain level of party discord.
It's not even an issue of player freedom of choice, either. If you're the one who wants to be the kapak assassin and everybody else is keen on the Solamnic Knight party, you're going to have to either rethink your concept or think of a way around it.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's not even an issue of player freedom of choice, either. If you're the one who wants to be the kapak assassin and everybody else is keen on the Solamnic Knight party, you're going to have to either rethink your concept or think of a way around it.
I don't know though Cam. It isn't like the evil odd man out in this situation, but rather just two players. How do you choose between them? I would hate to see the strong-willed player forcing the more sensitive guy to change from a character he's excited about, nor leaving it up to a coin toss.
Besides, I don't like the idea that sorcerers are always renegades. It prevents a sorcerer culture distinct from renegade wizards from forming. Who wants that?
Originally posted by ferratus
I don't know though Cam. It isn't like the evil odd man out in this situation, but rather just two players. How do you choose between them? I would hate to see the strong-willed player forcing the more sensitive guy to change from a character he's excited about, nor leaving it up to a coin toss.
What can I say, I have a much more agreeable and easy-going group, so I'm spoiled. The best solution is for the DM to present the options up front - either the group's going to have room for a sorcerer, a wizard, or two players are going to have to think of a clever and interesting dynamic that lets them play one of each.
Besides, I don't like the idea that sorcerers are always renegades. It prevents a sorcerer culture distinct from renegade wizards from forming. Who wants that?
It's a feature of the setting. You want sorcerers and wizards to mix peacefully, run a Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk campaign.
At this stage, there's not enough of a Conclave to enforce anything on sorcerers, but eventually it will prove difficult to work around. I think that the weakened Orders element is your best route until something develops in next year's crop of novels regarding the subject.Cheers,
Cam
During my running of DL1-14 in 3E last year, I gave spellcasting abilities to bards. *gasp!* There was also a WoHS in the group. The wizard stated flatly that since the bard was showing 'great' spellcasting abilities he would have to bring her to the tower to be trained/tested. However, there was the issue of the quest going on at the moment that was just a 'tad' more important. In short, the wizard was distracted by something bigger. Before the end of the quest, the wizard and the bard were separated, and the bard had nothing to worry about... in regards to being brought to the tower.
Oddly enough, the WoHS ran into another PC which was a renegade. So now 'they' had to be in the same group. Now the situation was even worse! (God I love my players... *rolls eyes*) Still, as DM I made sure that the group was busy enough so that the concept of the wizard attempting to hog-tie the renegade and hauling her off to the tower at that time was ridiculously stupid. But none-the-less, it didn't happen. Even the renegade was focused enough on the quests at hand to not give two steels about the "stuck-up tight-arsed tower mage." {Pardon my Ol' English style French.}
So they still didn't get along, in-game. All the better for good RP.
Unfortunately, I haven't yet gone into 5th Age, nevermind post-WoS, so the exact specifics of the WoHS vs. Sorcerer issue I draw on. But I hope the '4th Age equivalent' examples here help in some way.
Oh, and on a humorous note, the WoHS eventually turned against the Tower and became a renegade. The renegade, completely separate from the WoHS at the time, chose to have herself tested and passed.
A White robes: would hunt down the renegade and determine if he was a threat to magic: if a threat he was encouraged to join or destroyed; if not a threat he was encouraged to join and if not he was observed by the white robes.
Red Robes: These guys would down the renegade and say join or die.
Black robes: These guys were downright devious. They would hunt down the renegade and encourage him to join the black robes and if the renegade said no, the black robes would basically say stay hidden (and the black robe would use him) or be destroyed.
Now I may be wrong, but I do beleive this is how it was stated in either DLA or ToTL.
IIRC, white robes in DLA would take a renegade and send him to "beyond" (meaning another fantasy world).
I could be wrong, but I think that's how DLA had it set up. I've read other sources saying a white robe would imprison a renegade to where their magic wouldn't affect anyone.
I guess we'll have to wait until Towers of High Sorcery.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's a feature of the setting. You want sorcerers and wizards to mix peacefully, run a Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk campaign.
With all due respect Cam, it isn't a feature of the setting yet. It is what YOU think should be a feature of the setting. It hasn't been written yet, and we don't even know for sure why sorcery is problematic in the first place.
Myself, I'm making the point that there isn't much point in having sorcerers if you are just going to lump them in with the renegade wizards anyway. The only thing that will then differentiate the two groups is game mechanics.
I can't accept that, because I have big plans for sorcerers beyond being hunted by the conclave.
Renegades to me, signify someone who has been entrusted with the secrets of magic and has either betrayed that trust, or stolen those secrets. Sorcererers on the other hand, are a completely new magical tradition.
At this stage, there's not enough of a Conclave to enforce anything on sorcerers, but eventually it will prove difficult to work around. I think that the weakened Orders element is your best route until something develops in next year's crop of novels regarding the subject.
So what then? When the Orders of High Sorcery regain their strength, the only thing left for the sorcerers is to go underground? That sounds suspiciously like trying to shove the genie back into the bottle to me.
Originally posted by ferratus
With all due respect Cam, it isn't a feature of the setting yet. It is what YOU think should be a feature of the setting. It hasn't been written yet, and we don't even know for sure why sorcery is problematic in the first place.
Margaret herself has said that sorcerers are most definitely renegades (see DL-L list archives).
It's true, we don't know how the wizard/sorcerer relationship will work out, and we may not know until Wizard's Conclave or Towers of High Sorcery are out.
At the present time, there are many indicators that show that there will be strife between them.
The basic view as it stands now is that wizards are more likely to be part of an organization, while sorcerers are more individualistic. These are not absolutes, though.
I think there are many people who would like to see the Academy of Sorcery rebuilt, which would then be a rival power to the Orders of High Sorcery. Inevitably, a truce between the two groups is made and each governs their own.
While this is appealing, something is nagging me in the back of my mind. That's just too easy.
I do think there will be some sort of truce, but I don't think it will come without first having a struggle, and I don't think there will be a new Academy in the grand scheme of things.
Just some thoughts.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I do think there will be some sort of truce, but I don't think it will come without first having a struggle, and I don't think there will be a new Academy in the grand scheme of things.
Of course, we are all looking forward to the magical war, and Dalamar getting his ass handed to him by Emma. That's not the point.
The point is that making sorcerers just another shade of renegade and shoving them to the sidelines is just too boring.
Originally posted by ferratus
The point is that making sorcerers just another shade of renegade and shoving them to the sidelines is just too boring.
Agreed!
Which is why it would be a crying shame if the Academy remains closed forever. I can't believe it was ever destroyed in the first place! (but that's another argument for another day) ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
Which is why it would be a crying shame if the Academy remains closed forever. I can't believe it was ever destroyed in the first place! (but that's another argument for another day) ;)
Ah, but the academy was just a building of stone and wood. What was important was the teachings. Now that all that knowledge isn't bottled up in Solace, it can spread across Ansalon. The instructors can now be found everywhere from Sancrist to Mithas. It has become a fellowship now, rather than a single college.
I think it would be a shame if it was rebuilt.
Originally posted by ferratus
Ah, but the academy was just a building of stone and wood. What was important was the teachings. Now that all that knowledge isn't bottled up in Solace, it can spread across Ansalon. The instructors can now be found everywhere from Sancrist to Mithas. It has become a fellowship now, rather than a single college.
It doesn't necessarily surprise me to find that we don't actaully agree on this... (heh heh)
But, I don't understand where this view comes from that the Academy actually bottled up the knowledge. We have very different veiws of the world, my friend.
Just because the campus was based in Solace, doesn't mean there weren't instructors and mini-schools everywhere. Hell, there were those things when the Conclave was in charge...and the whole reason Palin disolved the Conclave was because it was too constrictive for Sorcery. So why would he make the Academy even more restrictive than the Towers?
Originally posted by ferratus
The point is that making sorcerers just another shade of renegade and shoving them to the sidelines is just too boring.
What gives you the idea that this is going to happen?
It's possible to have dramatic and interesting long-term storylines involving conflicts which present each side as its own agency (whether united or not) without having everybody shake hands and agree to just get along. I'm continually astonished you'd want to just skip all of that and plan for the eventuality that they either will or they won't, when there's so much more that can happen in the interim.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by darthsylver
Who's Emma?
She was a student at the Academy of Sorcery who had different views on sorcery, and therefore was able to make some huge accomplishments. I believe she is currently MIA, according to an old Legend of the Lance newsletter.
Ferratus is very...fond of her.
Oh, and Ferratus - Dalamar would wipe the floor with her. ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Oh, and Ferratus - Dalamar would wipe the floor with her. ;)
Totally.
Andre' and I know where she is, but we aren't telling.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
It doesn't necessarily surprise me to find that we don't actaully agree on this... (heh heh)
But, I don't understand where this view comes from that the Academy actually bottled up the knowledge. We have very different veiws of the world, my friend.
Part of it is the desire not to see every sorcerer from Sancrist to Mithas having a "Solace Academy" t-shirt or sweatshirt.
The other part is not really understanding what you are missing about the academy building itself. It seems to me that is was a completely functional building, with a lecture hall, dorm rooms, and classrooms. There is no mystery, or unique features about the place that really sets it apart from any other academy of magic.
The only thing to miss is the culture and methods of teaching. You don't need the academy for that, and I'd prefer the option of building 300 schools of sorcery, each with unique features that reflect the quirks of the teachers and students. The Wizards of High Sorcery has always been partly defined by the relationship to the Tower at Wayreth. Why follow along in the path they have already made?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Totally.
Andre' and I know where she is, but we aren't telling.
I haven't seen Dalamar do anything to suggest he can run his own life, much less coordinate a covert war effort. ;)
As for the location of Emma, until I see product featuring Emma with Cam's or Andre's names on it, they don't know squat about where she is and what she's up to. ;)
As for my undying love for a fictional character, I've listened to people go on about Laurana and Kitiara for years, and how beautiful they are, and how exciting, and such. Yet, suddenly I'm the freak.
Originally posted by ferratus
I haven't seen Dalamar do anything to suggest he can run his own life, much less coordinate a covert war effort. ;)
Read up on how he became the head of the order of the Black Robes to begin with. ;)
As for the location of Emma, until I see product featuring Emma with Cam's or Andre's names on it, they don't know squat about where she is and what she's up to. ;)
Now, now. No need to get upset if Cam and Andre' have some sort of advanced knowledge.
As for my undying love for a fictional character, I've listened to people go on about Laurana and Kitiara for years, and how beautiful they are, and how exciting, and such. Yet, suddenly I'm the freak.
To each their own. Personally, I see where she's sort of a minor character. However, it is possible they may do something bigger with her someday. After all, Mina was once just a mysterious orphan at the Citadel of Light. ;)
Originally posted by darthsylver
O-kay so this emma is mentioned in what supplement or is she just a figment of Ferratus's mind?
Lol!
I think she's mentioned in Heroes of Sorcery. I believe her full name is Emma Xela. Terry, is that correct?
One thing I've discovered about the SAGA game products is that there are some characters in there who are somewhat minor, but they seem to be set up for greater things.
Mina is the perfect example of this. All she is in Citadel of Light is an orphan with a bit of a mysterious past. Weis and Hickman developed this quite well, making her a power player in Ansalon.
If I'm correct on the motive here, Ferratus seems to think that Emma has this sort of potential as well.
Emma was always told by her instructors that her ideas on sorcery really did not work. She barely got into the Academy of Sorcery anyway. When she proposed that two effects could be melded together to form a new one, her instructors and peers laughed. When she proved herself right, suddenly everyone was listening. She soon became a consultant to the other instructors.
I think Emma was last seen investigating some spawn, but I'm not sure.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Now, now. No need to get upset if Cam and Andre' have some sort of advanced knowledge.
*grins* Yeah, but the fact is that book might never get written. I'm not upset, I'm just stating that Cam and Andre can't have any more knowledge about Emma's fate than Steve Miller had about Mina's back in 1998.
Unless of course, a book with Emma is already on its way to the presses. That would be very exciting for me, since I've always believed that the character was too interesting to die.
As for Emma Xela in canon, the only reference to her is in the SAGA game product Heroes of Sorcery, Book 1. There is also a little tidbit about her going to Nordmaar with a kender in an old Legends of the Lance newsletter.
I am trying to complete my collection of DL sourcebooks.
Already completed my novel collection. :D :D
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's possible to have dramatic and interesting long-term storylines involving conflicts which present each side as its own agency (whether united or not) without having everybody shake hands and agree to just get along.
Who is talking about a walk in the posies? The simple fact is that the war cannot go on forever without some middle ground being found. Otherwise the conclave simply becomes and remains unable to stop the new magic, which takes away their aura of mystery and power. Jonesy pretty much described how it has to end up, with the conclave recognizing that the sorcerers aren't going away, but keeping an eye on the most powerful sorcerers (just in case).
I'm continually astonished you'd want to just skip all of that and plan for the eventuality that they either will or they won't, when there's so much more that can happen in the interim.
Nothing for me to do. Yeah, you're right I don't really care about the magical war in the interm. I don't care, because it will be resolved through the new novels and through the wishes of Sovereign Press. I know that the sorcerers and wizards will fight for awhile, and I know that some kind of resolution will occur to allow both to coexist in some fashion. I know this for the metagaming reason that 5th Age fans will scream if sorcerers go away.
So yeah, I'm not really interested in writing or running through adventures that are "filler" for when the big boys finally resolve the issue. I was never interested in running the HotL through their paces. I was never interested in doing miniquests for the big boys during the chaos war, nor running a campaign where my heroes impotently wait for Mina to crush the dragon overlords.
I'm the same guy that wants to ressurect the Seekers and make them the faith of Abanisania. I'm the same guy who wants to cause a civil war in the Solamnic Knighthood. I'm the same guy who wants the Dominion of Daltigoth to rise as the dominant evil power in the west.
So be astonished no more. I need a good gazateer more than I need adventure seeds or overarching plotlines that Sovereign Press will solve for me.
Originally posted by ferratus
So yeah, I'm not really interested in writing or running through adventures that are "filler" for when the big boys finally resolve the issue. I was never interested in running the HotL through their paces. I was never interested in doing miniquests for the big boys during the chaos war, nor running a campaign where my heroes impotently wait for Mina to crush the dragon overlords.
Given that none of the materials which provide the gazetteer information you want will also have all conflicts resolved, you're going to have to deal with this sort of thing on some level.
But it's nice to have it all spelled out for me. Now I won't worry about continuity discussions with you, Terry!Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Nothing for me to do. Yeah, you're right I don't really care about the magical war in the interm. I don't care, because it will be resolved through the new novels and through the wishes of Sovereign Press.
So basically, you want to be able to have some sort of control, correct? Knowing that the issue will be resolved in novels and games, you would then feel like you're not able to shape the setting.
So yeah, I'm not really interested in writing or running through adventures that are "filler" for when the big boys finally resolve the issue. I was never interested in running the HotL through their paces. I was never interested in doing miniquests for the big boys during the chaos war, nor running a campaign where my heroes impotently wait for Mina to crush the dragon overlords.
It sounds to me like you want to have a game to run where you feel like you're having an impact on the face of Krynn. This way, you feel a sense of ownership.
I've noticed lately that a number of your posts say "we". "We" need to reach a consensus on this, or "we" need to agree to that. I've wondered of late who "we" consists of.
It sounds to me like you're trying to be able to shape the world of Krynn. It also sounds like you're reaching for some sort of fan consensus, which would then somehow become truth. I think you also would like some sort of "Living" (RPGA) game for Dragonlance. This way, you would feel like you could shape the setting.
Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but that's the general vibe I'm getting here.
Truth be told, there are few people who can affect the setting. Authors and game designers each have to make certain that what they do is okay with WotC first. Yes, even Margaret and Tracy have to do that. I doubt that "we" would ever have much of an impact.
There was once a time when I played in Dragonlance and we didn't know what the future was going to be. There was no Summer Flame, let alone a Fifth Age at the time. It was a good time, as the future was uncertain and we could shape it.
There was a time when I DM'd DL after reading Second Generation (before Summer Flame). What I came up with eventually became Darklance, which became an alternate reality the second Summer Flame came out.
Likewise, there were times when we played in the post-Cataclysm years, knowing that we wouldn't change the fate of the setting, yet our adventures were epic nonetheless.
Point is, you can have epic adventures that don't fly in the face of continuity. You can shape the world to be your own, even if it doesn't mesh with continuity. That's a great route to go, as the world then becomes yours, in a sense. You don't have to seek WotC's or Sov. Press' validation.
In a sense, WotC and Sov. Press are presenting the outline. Take that outline, shape it to your own wants and desires, and make the world into something that you can call your own.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
It sounds to me like you want to have a game to run where you feel like you're having an impact on the face of Krynn. This way, you feel a sense of ownership.
Not so much on "the face of Krynn" but I definately like my campaigns not to be another's shadow.
It sounds to me like you're trying to be able to shape the world of Krynn. It also sounds like you're reaching for some sort of fan consensus, which would then somehow become truth. I think you also would like some sort of "Living" (RPGA) game for Dragonlance. This way, you would feel like you could shape the setting.
Yeah, "we" is a fan consensus on certain things as well as a chance to bring certain things to the designer's attention that they may have not considered.
A living dragonlance thing would be excellent, and I'd like to see the Whitestone Council transformed into a body which could oversee such a project. Living Dragonlance doesn't have to be canon and continuity either, it just has to be shared. The whole fun of a shared world (as opposed to homebrew) is that you can interact with DM's as well as players within the setting.
Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but that's the general vibe I'm getting here.
You're right so far, but you make a mistep below.
Point is, you can have epic adventures that don't fly in the face of continuity. You can shape the world to be your own, even if it doesn't mesh with continuity. That's a great route to go, as the world then becomes yours, in a sense. You don't have to seek WotC's or Sov. Press' validation.
That's not what I need. See, I don't like adventures where the outcome is going to be decided by another. However, I do like running adventures that are parallel to the novels. So I don't like the magical war storyline because its resolution is decided by other people. I don't like the "retake northern Solamnia" storyline for the same reason, or the minotaur invasion of Silvanesti, or the eventual fate of Mina.
However, I am interested in the elven diaspora, because even if it resolved one way or another (by regaining Qualinesti and Silvanesti), the elves and exile can have innumerable fates. Not all the elves are going back to their homelands.
I'm interested in the uneasy feeling that the Solamnic Knights have in their own homeland, for even if it is resolved that the Knights re-establish themselves, those hard feelings are going to remain both outside and inside the knighthood. That is going to spawn innumerable factions both covert and overt that I can use.
Unfortunately, for it to be a shared world, we need a good gazateer. An almanac of people, places, customs, traditions and politics. That way we can take the people of Krynn and shape them any way we wish, and share it between the other DM's who have decided to make Dragonlance their home.
A final note, and the final purpose of a gazateer, is to provide adventure hooks that it is clear that the official line won't solve themselves. That also sets up a lot of parallel adventures.
There was a time when my buddy Dave was running a game centered around the Cataclysm. Dave was a great storyteller who had a knaak for games with a dark tone, which definitely fit the time. We had some longer-lived characters, so we went from 6 months prior to the Cataclysm to 110 years afterwards. We would have eventually hit the War of the Lance.
Any number of things could have happened in there to really screw up the setting. What we landed up doing was running parallel to any novels or game info, to where we had epic adventures of our own in such a way that didn't fly in the face of any bit of continuity. Plus, it was all us.
Anyhoo, I'm just rambling about the old days. Good times. I sure miss Dave. :sad:
I tend to think that having it be a case purely of "WoHS vs. sorcerers" is a bit simplistic. While I definitely think that the wizards will be at odds with sorcerers, I think that the majority off wizards who truly advocate the forced conversion of sorcerers to wizardry will be wizards whose practices predated the Second Cataclysm--mostly elves and older humans. These same wizards are most likely to form the Conclave itself, or at least be in such respectable positions to gain some measure of notoriety for their "authenticity" as wizards.
That said, I think it's important to keep in mind that the majority of the world's current wizards are either ex-sorcerers, or just simply grew up with friends who became sorcerers. Up until recently, wild sorcery is all that they had ever known or had experience with, and I think this will show through in varying degrees of ambivalence about relations with sorcerers.
Sure, you may have some fanatics who used sorcery become wizards and then just as quickly seek the extermination of sorcerers (most of these individuals would be black robes) and then I think you'll also see people who feel that it's better to be a wizard, but at the same time won't brutally hunt sorcerers to the ends of Krynn, while there will be even some rare others who simply think that making sorcerers the enemy is foolhardy.
The WoHS have always been one of the most political, and by extension most fascinating elements of DL. To automatically lump every member into a single position on relations with sorcerers would completely erase this. I do think that the majority of wizards will consider primal sorcery to be an inferior form of magic and one that needs to eventually be given up, but I think you'll see different ways that wizards go about doing this. Some will threaten sorcerers with forced conversions, while others may be glad to travel with a sorcerer and hope to eventually enlighten him or her to the ways of high sorcery.
Again, that said, I think this will also result in the aforementioned old-school members of the Orders keeping close watch on the more liberal wizards, and even constructing something of a blacklist reminiscent of McCarthy.
In my campaign, wholesale war between sorcerers and wizards wouldn't erupt until one side does something to try and disrupt the other's legitimacy. Something like a spell that suppresses moon magic coming from sorcerers, or primal magic coming from wizards. I think it would be something that subtle that sets off an entire conflict. But then, that wouldn't occur for another good 5-10 years down the setting's timeline. Anyways, that's my two cents.
I think that you will find some of the foundations of the Orders of High Sorcery in place, especially with some of the old guard around.
At the same time, most of the new WoHS may very well come from the ranks of former sorcerers. It may be that the Academy of Sorcery may live on, in that its teachings will be incorporated into the Orders of High Sorcery.
Or, perhaps a new path will be forged.
I think the Orders of High Sorcery will have to adapt to survive. Currently, the greatest force of organized spellcasters on the planet are the Thorn Knights. The WoHS will be dead before they've even started if they're worried about squabbling with sorcerers, rather than upping their own numbers.