Also, a PC in my game managed to wrest control of a sphere of annihilation (He THREW his familiar at the escapeing mage to deliver a touch spell! I hadn't planned on them running into that mage again for another 15 levels!) But I was fair, he got the bloody thing...now he wants to take it with him back to Sigil.
I've been trying to pre-emptively come up with ways they might think of to get the thing there (it's currantly in the outlands, near ribcage) but I was hopeing to get any ideas from the more educated here.
In 3rd ed, the default rule is "Psionics are the same", and there is a variant rule for "Psionics Are Different".
So... i guess the answer to your question is: are psionics different in your campaign?
eudas
I don't recall offhand how the MotP puts it, but consider it this way: If the gods themselves are completely anulled at the Spire and therefore little more than glorified humans, why should there be any other exceptions?
Except for one. Nobody's proven it in canon yet, but the rilmani, natives of the region around the Spire, are said to be able to command full use of their magical powers, psionics, etc., anywhere on the Outlands, regardless of proximity to the Spire. Since the rilmani are the exemplar race of the Outlands, it serves to stand that they would be treated differently by the plane.
The cause of the Outlands' magical draining effect is unknown. It is possible that the Spire is the focus of a massive belief/magic draining field that pours its power up and through Sigil to power the multiverse. It is possible that it is merely a quirk of Neutrality, making all beings equal in terms of magical or deific power. The exact reason is unknown.
In my FR campagin, I feel there is more than enough room for 3 kinds of mystical powers to exist. The Art, the Power, and the Way interact seamlessly. When confronted with questions about how psionics would work in say a dead magic area, I use the analogy of sound in space. You need a medium for the sound wave to travel through. You can scream all you want, but without air no one will hear it. Same as Arcane, Divine, or Psionic power without the weave (or other planar energies when not on Toril).
Good question of if the Spire itself is the source of the drain. Perhaps its just a physical representation of the center of the plane and the plane, rather than the spire, is the cause of the magic etc loss.
Perhaps the Rilmani know some or all of this dilemma, but they aren't talking about it one way or the other.
That's exactly the ammunition I need for the Core d20 Revolution vs. the Ridiculous Levels!!! No EPIC MAGIC IN THE PLANES!!!!!
Oh... oh... thats just too good... *struggles to regain breath amid fits of giggling*
*regains composure and smooths gown*
So does this mean you'll go over to the EPIC boards and bash them and their house of cards arguments in all caps with large fonts? Oh that'd be so good to watch. And point and laugh too. ;)
The Rilmani, active guardians of balance, sit at the center of the Outlands; it only makes sense that the farther from the Spire you get, the less the plane represents perfect balance, and the more it represents perfect non-alignment. A few points to consider:
Most sentient beings fall into the neutral alignment, but you don't see the Outlands crawling with petitioners any more than any other outer plane. That's because most of them are either in a God's realm someplace or are actually out near the edges and in the hinterlands.
Also, the Hinterlands resist outward movement and always offer a quick way out simply making a decision to turn back. You can't go into the place of indecision by deciding to, that will only help you get out. The more dedication you have, the less progress you make. The only way to "explore" the Hinterlands is to wander out with no desire to progress or return, hence your tales of those who wander out aimlessly never to return.
The Hinterlands are never the same on two different expeditions. Even the land can't make up its mind about what it wants to be.
To quote the lovely Mdme. Opus, Alas, I cannot prove a word.
*gets out Hammer+1 of Physics and score a critical hit, sending a level 40 rogue to the depths of the ocean*
*ahem* Anyway.
So, where was I? Ah yes. The Spire. Great place. I recommend that everyone visit there at least once.
I think, with the new psionics rules introduced in 3E, they should be bound by the same rings that magic is. i.e., 9th level psionics are anulled after the outermost ring, etc.
Originally posted by primemover003
[size=10]YES, YES MRGOAT!!![/size]
Oh man, I don't usually get that kind of reaction outside of the bedroom. Yeah, I've thought about using the hinterlands before, I generally think of them as a place to use locations that lack certain concepts, (Once I used a forest in wintertime there that lacked persistence) or embody concepts that no one's ever thought of, or are completely forgotten or otherwise not known, as well as a place for the severely surreal. I like to think of them as a place where beliefs that aren't believed live. I guess that's kind of far-realms-ish by default, but my messed up imagination comes up with better stuff than I've read about the far realms sometimes anyway. I like to imagine the hinterlands get more dangerous the farther out you go, as well as housing older things. If I were going to use the epic level handbook, and I might, I think the hinterlands are where you'd fine some of the more bizarre monsters. You know, the things that "challenge the gods themselves" (presumably, not inside the god's realm). 'Course, if they're out there, by definition no one knows about them, and they have no idea about the rest of the universe. So they can't just walk back to the outlands either. They don't know the outlands exist.
That's where I stick Uvuduuams, the sentient blackball things, those mountain-sized ice giants with white dragons perching on them, genius loci, proteans, and so on. Not that they couldn't be used elsewhere, but that's where I'd put the highest concentrations of them. It's also where I stick every nightmare I've had. And I've had some *really cool* nightmares. I would use the hinterlands for the weirdest stuff I can find, things that aren't allowed to make sense. Every idea I get from damnenginenine.net, and then some.
On the other hand, I also see no reason that epic level spells couldn't be used on the outer and inner planes, or the transient ones. It's basically the outlands that I think would annul them, (with the growing exception of the hinterlands) and Sigil, where the Lady would allow/disallow them on a case by case basis. Probably through flaying you for trying it, if it's one she doesn't like. Oh, and the fact that powers could generally stop you from casting them in their realms.
Anyway, yeah. No epic level spells at the spire. Of course not. They're higher than 0th level spells. 0th level spells and higher don't work at the spire. Epic level spells obviously can't work there. I do so hope some mage with a head full of epic spells runs into the butterflies I hear rumors about there. But hey, call me crazy. I don't let people with a high balance skill walk on water nonsupernaturally either. Because it's stupid. I'm even inventing a spell, called "Smite Stupid". I'll make more of them sometime: Lesser Smite Stupid, Greater Smite Stupid, True Smite Stupid, Obliterate Stupid, Epic Stupid Eradication, and so on. Then I'll have NPC's use them on epic PCs that do something obscenely stupid. Man, that reminds me of good ol' Power Word BWAH.
Originally posted by mrgoat
Oh man, I don't usually get that kind of reaction outside of the bedroom.
Get that man a rim shot!
Would a Ridiculous-Level Rilmani's Ridiculous spell function at the Spire?
Originally posted by mrgoat
I'll make more of them sometime: Lesser Smite Stupid, Greater Smite Stupid, True Smite Stupid, Obliterate Stupid, Epic Stupid Eradication, and so on. Then I'll have NPC's use them on epic PCs that do something obscenely stupid. Man, that reminds me of good ol' Power Word BWAH.
Don't forget Slay Stupid or Power Word: Defecate. "I soiled my armor, you got me so worked up! [...] I did it again."
Originally posted by Center of All
Now, the question is:
Would a Ridiculous-Level Rilmani's Ridiculous spell function at the Spire?
Wouldn't being ridiculous-level be an imbalance?
Originally posted by Center of All
Now, the question is:
Would a Ridiculous-Level Rilmani's Ridiculous spell function at the Spire?
No, but Feeble's Feeble foible the -1th level spell would be just fine, as it is not 0th or higher.
Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
Its entirely possible that you'd find some Powers int he Hinterlands. With the hidden nature of the Hinterlands such a power would be very isolated and alone. Gods of Secrets could be there, as well as Gods of tiny unknown spheres. You could also have Gods of Forgotten portfolios. Ones not weak enough to die and go astral, but so weak and powerless due to their lack of followers that their only recourse is to move out into the fragments of belief and simply cease to be.
Would it be possable that it is where gods go when they die, and after time passes they eventually 'decompose' and fade onto the astral?
EDIT: Scratch that, I misread the question. God-corpses on the Astral might decay, but if they do, the process is so slow that nobody knows how long it would take.
Slain deities go immediately to the Astral Plane upon their death. When Aoskar was slain by the Lady, he immediately popped into the Astral as a bladed corpse. Likewise with other deities (Bane, Myrkul) who have died untimely deaths.
Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
Its entirely possible that you'd find some Powers int he Hinterlands. With the hidden nature of the Hinterlands such a power would be very isolated and alone. Gods of Secrets could be there, as well as Gods of tiny unknown spheres. You could also have Gods of Forgotten portfolios. Ones not weak enough to die and go astral, but so weak and powerless due to their lack of followers that their only recourse is to move out into the fragments of belief and simply cease to be.
heh. See also: "Small Gods" by terry pratchett?
eudas
Originally posted by Center of All
(snip)
Slain deities go immediately to the Astral Plane upon their death. When Aoskar was slain by the Lady, he immediately popped into the Astral as a bladed corpse. Likewise with other deities (Bane, Myrkul) who have died untimely deaths.
Hmm... Moander...
(good ol' pools of darkness...)
eudas
Nothing decays or ages on the Astral, or at least thats what anyone can tell and what most believe. Well of course the Doomguard don't, and they've set up a place in the Astral to watch and see if indeed over time things do in fact decay. To this end they created the prison of Pitiless. It's in a portion of the Astral thats extremely isolated from any communities of Githyanki, Psurlon, floating godisles, color pools, etc. The area is deadly quite as far as random Astral actvity such as Astral Storms etc.
Within Pitiless the Doomguard keep prisoners that are given to them, and they accept anyone delivered, and perhaps even those who come to commit themselves. See Pitiless is perhaps the single most secure prison on the planes, outside of the bubbles in Agathion the lowest layers of Pandemonium that some say the powers use to entomb things best forgotten.
The Doomguard also keep objects, items, maybe even artifacts therein. All of them are things that someone, somewhere wants locked away and forgotten. And the Doomguard are fine with this. After all, it'll all decay into nothing in the end, and within Pitiless they intend to watch it all till it does.
The two wardens of the citadel, Aorth with No Heart and Jayeth with No Spirit, two dwarven brothers. (I may have spelled that 2nd name wrong, this is off the top of my head here).
So the question is, are things in fact decaying? Thus far no, at least as far as visitors can tell. And visitors are allowed, under watch of course by the clan of fire giants employed by the Doomguard. Some have said that a group of Yugoloths visits the prison at regular intervals. Visiting someone? Or perhaps simply doing what they do best and enjoying the activity of tormenting the prisoners because they can?
*ponder* I may actually start something on the place as a thread of my own here, just curious if people have used it in their own campaigns. I did in mine, and stocked the place with prisoners and items, all with backhistory and potential plots. Gave the place flavor. And a number of them the PC's were quite happy to leave there to rot...
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
(snip)
And a number of them the PC's were quite happy to leave there to rot...
or not, as the case may be, eh?
eudas
They also were rather frightened by a Parai who claimd to have been imprisoned by Orcus during his stint as Tenebrous when he usurped the position of Primus. This particular Parai apparently discovered what had happened, and was locked away because of this. "He could not kill me. I am perfection. And perfection cannot be destroyed. It can only be made unreachable to others..."
There was also, among others, a reformed/risen Ultraloth. At least he appeared to be genuinely reformed. There was a group of Yugoloths there at the time quite happily tormenting him.
The PC's were there at the time to speak with Ghyris Vast, creator of The Divinity Leech who had been placed into Pitiless by his current employers.
Of course Vast died some minute and a half after telling the PC's that, "I. Had. Help." *paranoid chuckle* "And the ones with MY DEVICE, they don't know that...". "Oh of course he'll kill me, told me not to tell anyone, just give the leech to whomever came for it. Said it was for an 'old friend'. I'm a dead man now, but what does it matter?"
(Vast was a barmy Bleaker in the worst way)
As the PC's left all they heard was Vast screaming in his cell, then the scream cut short. Running back it was like Vast had internally exploded, popped like an overfull balloon. And the 'reformed Ultraloth' in the cell across from Vast's cell was huddled against the wall, shaking and terrified.
Vast was right, someone didn't want him talking... Someone who had helped him create The Divinity Leech for a purpose, intending it to be given to the people that would come to Vast demanding he give it to them. All for a purpose.
A year into the campaign, the PC's are still putting pieces together. *cackles in evil mirth*
or not, as the case may be, eh?
I think eudas means that it remains to be seen whether or not things can rot on the Astral
heres an interesting thought though. Go to the ring just before teleport (or in 2e teleport without error for greater accuracy) stops working. Then teleport streight up. Infinitly high. Then use your glider (or baloon) to start travelling inwards toward the spire. You can travel physically towards the spire and I haven't heard altitude being a hindrance for that. Could reach Sigil or the top of the spire? What would you find on the top of the spire?
If you reached Sigil would you hit the nothing?
Whats on the outside ring of Sigil or does the nothing extend all the way around? Can you get around the nothing by going to the center of Sigil flying Spireward for a mile or so and then circling around? What would happen if you went to the middle and out a mile and then started to free fall? Would you fall towards where the ring would be, would you fall spireward, or would you fall at an angle towards the city? Since teleport works in Sigil what happens if you fly out and teleport infinitly far down, with a location of the top of the spire?
MY BRAIN! [Is dragged into the Mad Bleakers wing for rehabilatation]
Originally posted by sxoa
heres an interesting thought though. Go to the ring just before teleport (or in 2e teleport without error for greater accuracy) stops working. Then teleport streight up. Infinitly high.
I'd say something about infinity not being a real number, and therefore not a distance you could specify to teleport, but you can't really make proclamations like that while standing next to an infinitely tall spire. However, your plan won't work in 3e because teleport doesn't take directions.
You might try digging your way out through Undersigil instead, just to see if there's anything on the exterior side of the ring. Of course, no one's ever measured the depth of the ring, so there's no telling how long that would take.
I just thought of something. Is distance based on time travelling toward the Spire the way that it is travelling around the gate-towns? That is, I seem to remember the Spire being one day's journey from the gate-towns, and if that's the case, a teleport spell doesn't speed you up, does it?
Originally posted by nick012000
Why not just cast Teleport without Error (or, in 3.5, Greater Teleport) to 'the top of the Spire'. It would have a nice view.
As Xanxost and Rhys said no magic near the spire, but my point still stands that you could use it to get up on level with the top of the spire, and then glide (or use a balloon or whatever) and then just kind drift in towards it. This works especially if you hold Rhys' view that it would put you on level but then you'd have an infinite fall to the ground.
But what do people think about physically flying out of Sigil? Does the nothing extend around it or what? And if this did work, what would you find at the top of Spire? Center of All sitting in an Arborean recliner with a six pack of Baatorian Ale (gotta maintain the balance after all)?
Xanxost was supposed to go down to the bottom of the Spire and ask the Rilmani if they'd seen any mephits around, but Xanxost forgot. That's why Xanxost always had a nagging feeling that Xanxost has forgotten something when Xanxost was in Pandemonium.
As for gliding to the spire, Xanxost thinks that there is no atmosphere up that high, so any gliding would have to be done where there's air.
Good point about the lack of air.
PS rules state it takes 3d6 days to travel from one ring to another therefore it takes 27d6 days to traverse from the Gatetowns to the spire. MotP says it's 1,000 miles (easier to deal with game wise) so by foot it'll take 41 days (24 miles/day), by horse 20 days (48 m/d), or by dragon back (320m/d) a little over 3 days.
Originally posted by sxoa
But what do people think about physically flying out of Sigil? Does the nothing extend around it or what? And if this did work, what would you find at the top of Spire? Center of All sitting in an Arborean recliner with a six pack of Baatorian Ale (gotta maintain the balance after all)?
In 2e you'd probably throw yourself over and crash your glider into some random plane. Those who've looked over the edge and those who can fly both say the same thing: beyond the ring lies nothing. Those barmies who've hurled themselves into the nothingness find themselves teleported to a random plane.
Now in 3e, your plan may work just fine. "Those who escape the ring suddenly find themselves in open air, often plummeting down the side of the spire". 3e, however, does not explicitly specify a height for the spire, infinite or otherwise. The closest it comes is when they say it ascends to "unreachable heavens". Obviously they've never been to the Cage.
Originally posted by overtrick
Now in 3e, your plan may work just fine. "Those who escape the ring suddenly find themselves in open air, often plummeting down the side of the spire". 3e, however, does not explicitly specify a height for the spire, infinite or otherwise. The closest it comes is when they say it ascends to "unreachable heavens". Obviously they've never been to the Cage.
And this is where I don't like how the MotP handled it. If you're falling an infinite distance, than how did you survive to tell anyone that you found yourself plummeting down the spire since you can't use magic to send a message, nor would you use wings to escape since it's an infinite distance. Eventually you die of starvation or thirst. Thus there's no way that story could ever be reported. Thus logically, there's no way to prove or disprove that account.
Likewise anyone to jump over the side, or fly out of the ring has never returned to tell the tale. So maybe they do get bounced to a random plane, but with no recorded accounts to verify this, how can we know that its the truth?
All we have as definate are the accounts of the 'Nothing' that lies beyond the ring. No idea of what happens when you enter it. So handle that as you will in your own campaign.
My own personal take on the issue, which I have used in my own campaign (for an NPC, not a PC, yet anyways) is that hurling yourself over the side will equate to oblivion. It's an unexplained but accepted 4d6 moment.