I was just wondering how others here view Ravenloft; I suppose I should say your vision of it. Is it a little more medieval? A bit on the Victorion side? An actual demiplane in the ethereal with connections to other D&D settings (like in 2nd edtion)? A stand alone setting, or maybe even being a real world/planet?
I'm just wondering, because I tend to view it as an actual world, with the most advanced domains/countries having technology equal to the late Victorian era. Also I don't particularly like the idea of the Mists; at least not being the edge or boundary of a domain. I know that Ravenloft's inhabitants see things like the Misty Border as a part of their world, but I personally cannot see the city folk of Paridon merely shrugging their shoulders at the fact that the land around their city just dissappeared; and now mists that teleport them to elsewhere hang just at the end of the streets at the city's limits.
I suppose I should say that I, being a real person, find it hard to really get into the head of the common man of Ravenloft; people that are supposed to be ignorant and superstitious peasants that fear the supernatural, and yet they live in a land where a border of Mists that takes you elsewhere maybe a couple of dozen miles away (and lets not forget about the various domain closures).
All in all, I guess that is my stupid vision of Ravenloft. One that is more Victorian and an actual world, where the other more exotic Islands of terror would be distant lands/continents.
Originally posted by the village idiot
I was just wondering how others here view Ravenloft; I suppose I should say your vision of it. Is it a little more medieval? A bit on the Victorion side? An actual demiplane in the ethereal with connections to other D&D settings (like in 2nd edtion)? A stand alone setting, or maybe even being a real world/planet?
All of the above! I sorta look at the Core like the US, except it's south to north and not east to west. It's gets simpler the further you go down South (talkin bout Ravenloft here).
Hence, you've got your highest cultural levels up north, while down South it's not uncommon to find a medieval domain.
And yes, I STAY connected. I keep my game runnin off all the old TSR 2E worlds. That's my favorite part of Ravenloft.
There's more, but you can get that from the others.
Welcome to the Land Of Mists!
In places where magic users are fairly "common", you have right next to them places where magic users would be feared and even hated by the populace at large (I'm thinking of Hazlan/Barovia right now, but there are others).
As such, I guess I tend not to see the Ravenloft setting as a 'planet', in the sense that planets are round and generally have laws of physics that must be abided. Instead, I think of the Core as a continent unto itself, surrounded by the Mists, with several islands floating out in the Mists which are, themselves, hard to find.
Perhaps that's why we've never had an "accurate scaled map" of Ravenloft. Sri Raji, for example, has always been 'wherever you need it to be', as a DM. If it makes sense to have it 4 days sail from Nova Vaasa, so be it. If you need to get there from Darkon, it might take 2 days, traveling north. Who knows? Geography is very malleable, in this sense, and hard to get a finger on.
In terms of connections to other settings....it's very difficult to sever Ravenloft from its pre-cursors. Hazlik was a Red Wizard. Soth was from Krynn, as was Drakov. Azalin was an Oerthian ruler. It's hard to get around those (not that Sword & Sorcery haven't done so), which makes it useful to understand those cultural connections. It helps in fleshing out the world as a whole.
Yes, you can run a whole campaign in Sithicus without knowing that Soth was from Krynn, and no one will be the wiser. You may just have a damned good campaign, too, if you have a good DM surrounded by equally good players. You'll get more milage, though, if you know what Soth was like and what he did on Krynn...and why Sithicus is the way it is.
I tend to think of dangerous Mistways that connect the clusters and islands to the core much like long distance sailing in 1500's. That's probably a little different from the "standard" take on them. Not quite as dangerous as the current book has listed but also longer. Its still not for the faint of heart, but then in RL what is? People can and do "fail" to make their journeys.
Like MSD & PW I also agree wholeheartedly that maintaining a connection to the other world adds more depth and flavor to the RL setting. Many prominent figures who shape RL were in turn shaped "elsewhere". Understanding the "elsewhere" is important.
I think that there are four things that explain how people relate to the mists. First in the rural areas ignorance rules. Despite the cultured domains this covers a tremendous amount of ground. The average peasant never sees the next valley much less another domain, much less the misty borders. Second its important to realise how ignorant people were in their comparative time periods. Coppernicus was still be refuted by the Jesuits in the late 1600s/early 1700's even as Newton was begining to lay the foundations of the theory of gravity and the beginings of calculus. People in Lamordia and Demenlieu probably are trying to solve the mysteries of the mists...but they're probably nowhere near consensus, much less "truth" and politics probably plays as large a role in RL as it did in Europe. Even the very smart and very wise of RL are hard pressed not to become mired in appealing but wrong ideas. Even as bright a mind as Galileo got lost in trying to prove that the tides were caused by the spinning of the earth (to prove the suns point was fixed relative to the Earth). Third is the nature of RL in general... Progress in science (and to a lesser extent arcane magic in my mind) is based on observable, repeatable experiments. The land of the mists is rarely so accomodating. It makes sense for skewed results to produce a healthy skepticism of *ANY* theory, leaving the educated scratching their head. Finally, no matter how weird something is if it around you day in and day out it becomes familair...and unremarkable.
Whew. That was longer than I intended. Bottom line, sure the Paridoners are concerened about their missing lands and/or the nature of the mists in general. But realistically what can they do? A brave few chart mistways. A curiouss well-to-do few perform experiments. The rest have to get enough food to live. If they sometimes wonder...well there isn't a good answer for them and I'm sure they make up (urban) myths to help explain it.
The Masque of the Red Death is the Victorian Earth you have described at the end of your post. I *LOVE* the setting myself and recomend you either look for the 2E version of it on eBay or wait till April when the new version comes out. You might also look at www.livingdeath.org for the RPGA Masque of the Red Death Campaign and the rules it uses.
-Eric Gorman
(For my part, I've always ruled that everyone in Ravenloft is real. Huge numbers of fake people just makes the campaign setting seem less worth saving from darkness to me.)
I see Ravenloft as one large region in a huge demiplane which could have a large (if not infinite) number of other domains, perhaps even another core or three. That's not canon at all, but its my favorite way to look at it. I like the idea that its possible to find entire new worlds of horror, in theory.
Ravenloft, to me, is personified not so much in the major spotlight characters. it lies more within the heart of Scaena.
the ultimate trick, the house of cards set to cause the will to break and give in to darkness. life as an illusion to itself, and doubly so to those who see it for what it is. Ravenloft is not horror so much as despair. Every light burns out eventually, and one can only fight for so long.
the question becomes, will you give in, or fight to the death.
Originally posted by the village idiot
I'm just wondering, because I tend to view it as an actual world, with the most advanced domains/countries having technology equal to the late Victorian era. Also I don't particularly like the idea of the Mists; at least not being the edge or boundary of a domain. I know that Ravenloft's inhabitants see things like the Misty Border as a part of their world, but I personally cannot see the city folk of Paridon merely shrugging their shoulders at the fact that the land around their city just dissappeared; and now mists that teleport them to elsewhere hang just at the end of the streets at the city's limits.
In my eyes, that's the key. Ravenloft is only almost a world. It's a construct.
At first it was very small (only a few square miles, really), but then grew as a crazy quilt of non-sequitor parcels of landscape. Domains were added, not because they made sense but because they were cool concepts. Fair enough--it is a game, after all. But without a real, rational way to adhere the places together--other than the common "you're doomed, no matter where you go" theme--the seams showed badly, and even the residents could tell that something was wrong. But, since that was the only reality they knew, they had no frame of reference to explain why it should be otherwise. With reality's fabric so unreliable, anything unexplainable was sure to have a superstition built around it--the only rational response to an irrational world.
Obviously, as the setting grew and showed potential for more than just a "weekend in hell" environment, the [fans, designers, players] needed to satisfy a self-sustainable economy and ecology. The RL books of today have come a long way in promoting that, taking much of the irrational out of the world. Weather and trade don't end at borders anymore, and neither to politics. Now the world is in the awkward adolescent stages; it's much more believable to our sensibilities, but still ragged around the edges. Perhaps the designers will tidy those up, too.
But I doubt it. In the end, it's still a construct--the nature of the world is irrational, and the Mists are as central to the demiplane's structure as to its theme. There are no gods to depend on. The day can turn to night when you turn your head. The place is intentionally weird.
I agree--I doubt the people of Paridon would shrug their shoulders at the Mists swallowing their known universe, as well... in fact, I think they'd all be rather concerned about it. But what can they do about it? Some would avoid the subject altogether, knowing full well that it's no safer to go into the mists than it is to walk down certain dark alleys at night; others would have the hubris to think they have it all figured out--"it's all quite simple, really"-- blaming the weather or some natural phenomenon. Still others may study and get closer to the truth than their sanity can bear. So who do you trust more, the person who lives in a state of denial, the one who live in a state of delusion, or the one who's been unhinged by the knowledge that the rational "I think, therefore I am" world doesn't exist? (Would ethics or morality mean anything to them, then?)
It's either the blind leading the blind or the insane leading the naive. In any case, don't trust anyone who says "I understand it all, now."
Uncertainty is the foundation the construct was built upon--don't write it out of the script, build the story around it.
As for Paridon, I don't believe its natives "shrug" their shoulders at the fog surrounding their borders. But no matter how they are terrified of the strange state of their land, they have no choice but to accept the undenyable reality. Basically, they have a choice of either forcing their minds to accept it as part of their lives or going insane with the refusal to accept a fate they can't control. Only by supressing their fears can paridoners continue to live in the organised society they are accustomed with. They have been doing so for several centuries now, so it is more than a habit today.
I concede that to imagine the "reality" of Ravenloft, one needs imagination. However, in my experience, it can be done.
I'm sure the first generation of transplants in Paridon absolutely *freaked* out when it was yanked out of "where ever" (or created from cloth). But all future generations have grown up from day one seeing the mists all around them. Its only weird/strange when its new. When you've grown up with the mists all your life its perhaps an intellectual curiousity. The people of Paridon were probably scared when the mists swallowed up the farm land outside the city too...but they already knew the Mists were treacherous and I'm sure it was less of a shock than the first time round.
Perhaps they have a lingering fear of the Mist closing in to devour their city? But then they have other problems. On their streets are the dopplegangers. And down below...
-Eric Gorman
In general, I view it as a finite demiplane that functions in almost all respects as if it were a very deprived Prime world. The Domains, mashed together as they are and yoinked from other worlds (a trait that has not changed in 3e, even if those worlds aren't the worlds they used to be) don't entirely make sense as a Prime setting.
In general (and this is speaking as a DM) I look at the setting as a worthy adversary. It's a battle between myself and the canon publications to create a setting that I and my players will enjoy. Often this involves slaughtering a sacred cow or two (like a few Darklords
) I tend to "bleed" technology and magic from one Domain to another. Still, I find it a worthy effort, and RL lends itself to the kind of perversion I want to force upon it a lot more handily than most published settings. And in a world as twisted and horrible as the Demiplane of Dread, there's no shortage of plot hooks...