That said, since he knows fear so well, he is a master of manipulation and of playing on the fears of others. He has infiltrated the Legion of Steel and has them actively cooperating with him. He has taken three nations traditionally at war with each other (dwarves, barbarian humans and ogres) and has them living in relative peace under his protection.
Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing this dragon in action now that he isn't overshadowed by the uberdragons.
Originally posted by ferratus
Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing this dragon in action now that he isn't overshadowed by the uberdragons.
He's also on Cinder's number one "must destroy" list.
If there's any readymade conflict in the setting that's got long-lasting potential, it's that one. Dump the players into the middle of that green vs red dragonfeud, stir in the Legion of Steel and the Knights of Neraka, add a little trouble from the cannibals living in the Woods of Lahue and Bob uth Bobdar is your Solamnic uncle.
Cheers,
Cam
Do they eat their own ancestors after they die? Do they eat their enemies? Do they keep slaves around as livestock?
Personally, I prefer the middle option. If they eat their enemies, that gives adventurerers a reason to be in the boiling pot (you can't boil that monk of Majere, he's a friar!) yet doesn't make them completely monstrous.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
He's also on Cinder's number one "must destroy" list.
I don't know about Cinder. He has always fancied himself as wanting to be the "next" Malystryx and has always been jealous of her domain.
Is he going to fly off and claim the Desolation?
Originally posted by ferratus
I don't know about Cinder. He has always fancied himself as wanting to be the "next" Malystryx and has always been jealous of her domain.
Is he going to fly off and claim the Desolation?
That would ruin a perfectly good feud, now wouldn't it?
Cheers,
Cam
The desolation has the Khotai barbarians, desolation giants, and random corrupted monsters, so there isn't any creature that can oppose him for mastery of the terrain.
So my first answer as to why Cinder doesn't claim the prize would be to say that Malystryx has destroyed everything, so there isn't anything left in the Desolation to be interested in. Unfortuneately, Cinder has been doing his very best to destroy everything in his realm too. Why, I have no idea. I guess he doesn't like eating the flesh of humanoids and their cattle. Stupid idiot, like most of the rest of the dragonlords and dragon overlords (with the exception of Beryl and Fume).
Now, Cinder isn't as smart as Fume, nor does he have as many minions. However, Lorrinar doesn't want to fight, he doesn't exult in battle. So he wants others to do his fighting for him... who Cinder can easily handle.
But what is keeping Cinder there? Can Fume thwart Cinder's desire to claim the desolation? If so, how and why?
Originally posted by ferratus
But what is keeping Cinder there? Can Fume thwart Cinder's desire to claim the desolation? If so, how and why?
Given both the general nature of red dragons as well as Cinder, at this point his hatred is likely an issue of pride. How can he ever fully assert himself as an Overlord if he wasn't able to detroy a rather pacifistic green dragon over the course of 20 years or so? He suffers from hubris, Terry, and he's had his pride continually wounded through Fume's very contentious existence. The relevence (which was originally territorial-based) to the feud begins to melt away, and the feud in and of itself becomes symbolic of something else. It's the whole Capulet and Montague thing all over again. The feud has long since become emblematic of his purpose in life. I think it would be almost interesting to have him kill Fume and then find things unsettling due to the change.
Also, as for my own two cents on the whole completely barren and blasted thing, I've always been a big proponent of the idea that each Overlord Realm contained its own interesting elements. They just weren't covered in the main boxed set. I remember Stan! once saying that there had been plans to release a whole supplement on Southern Ergoth. It's all very much like Sean's Desolation Project. But I digress. This side-topic has long since been archived in many threads.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
Given both the general nature of red dragons as well as Cinder, at this point his hatred is likely an issue of pride. How can he ever fully assert himself as an Overlord if he wasn't able to detroy a rather pacifistic green dragon over the course of 20 years or so? He suffers from hubris, Terry, and he's had his pride continually wounded through Fume's very contentious existence.
Yeah, I could see that. The obsession however would have to be brought to the surface, and we have to figure out what exactly is holding Cinder in check. He may not be the smartest dragon, but unlike Fume he is no coward or recluse. He is also bigger and stronger than Fume as well.
Fume has also lost Beryl's protection, and Cinder is no longer held in check by Malystryx (who called an end to the Dragon Purge). So when Malystryx dies, the natural progression of the story is for Cinder to strike. So he needs to strike, and he needs to fail. That failure would sting his pride enough that it will cause the simmering feud to boil over.
As for Fume, I don't think he is a pacifist, just isolationist and cautious. By the way they described him in the 5th Age boxed set he was no less evil than Cinder or the rest of the Dragon Overlords, just more subtle.
I think it would be almost interesting to have him kill Fume and then find things unsettling due to the change.
Well, we had a similar dragon cold war with Iyesta and Thunder. While that cold war ended, and was a fairly good story, I think this cold war should just be beginning. Besides, I don't think Cinder would be unsettled for long. He'd just find another enemy. He is a destructive and self-destructive personality.
Also, as for my own two cents on the whole completely barren and blasted thing, I've always been a big proponent of the idea that each Overlord Realm contained its own interesting elements.
Yeah, but the own interesting elements (new geographical features, new monsters etc) could have been done in the existing terrain. The 5th Age team had a blank slate to do whatever they wanted and they blew it. Instead of turning Southern Ergoth into Icewall and adding "new and interesting elements" why couldn't they just add new and interesting elements to Icewall? Or the volcano badlands of the Taman Basuk? Or the Great Moor of Nordmaar? Look at Beryl, choosing an existing forest worked well enough for her. Look at the minor dragonlords.
You know what Ansalon doesn't have? An ancient empire ruled over by barbaric masters. That's why Gellidus ultimately has to go, or else we have to have Solamnia overrun by an Estwilde horde, or Ergoth invaded by the Northern Sea People again. You know what we'd lose then? Noble Solamnia and the Ancient Empire of Ergoth.
The Dragon Overlord domains cannot shrink fast enough for me.
You know what Ansalon doesn't have? An ancient empire ruled over by barbaric masters. That's why Gellidus ultimately has to go, or else we have to have Solamnia overrun by an Estwilde horde, or Ergoth invaded by the Northern Sea People again.
I'm not sure I follow this logic. Why does Ansalon lacking an ancient empire ruled by barbaric masters mean that Gellidus has to die? Really, you could say that Gellidus is a barbaric master, and he has his dragon realm. Also, Ergoth in its founding was barbaric, so you also have the ancient empire thing.
An invasion by the people of Estwilde is unlikely. Cannibals tend not to work well with non-cannibals, and they'll count for a fair part of the population. Also, their low level of civilisation is going to make them at a fair disadvantage when battling the well trained forces of the Solamnic army.
Now, if Lorrinar was to form a pact with the Knights of Neraka to help protect her from Cinder, and in return donating her forces for a joint attack on Solamnia, possibly to offer to Cinder so that he'll leave her alone (what would a green dragon want with all those plains anyway?)...
Originally posted by pddisc
Now, if Lorrinar was to form a pact with the Knights of Neraka to help protect her from Cinder, and in return donating her forces for a joint attack on Solamnia, possibly to offer to Cinder so that he'll leave her alone (what would a green dragon want with all those plains anyway?)...
Fume is a he.
It's more likely that the green dragon will get the Legion of Steel to help him out, since he's already got his claws in one of them. What benefit would this offer the Legion? It's possible that the War of Souls has shown them that the chromatic dragons have the potential to work against a more significant and dangerous threat alongside non-evil forces, and with green dragons being lawful rather than chaotic the Legion might find Fume to be a useful (if carefully watched) ally against the Nerakans.
Look over the two dragon's statistics sometime, too - you'll note that Cinder is not only smarter than Fume, he's more perceptive and has a greater confidence. He's Fume's superior in many ways, not the least being raw power, but the green dragon has the greater understanding of magic items and magical theory (if not actual spellcasting power). It's this, plus his contacts and clever use of terrain, that keeps Fume protected from Cinder for the time being.
In all likelihood, Cinder will eventually gather his resources together and make an attack on the Woods of Lahue, only to find that Fume has already left. His Legion spies working overtime, green Lorrinar establishes a new domain elsewhere in Krynn (I hear there's a vacancy near Qualinost...) and Cinder is left seething in frustration.
Cheers,
Cam
Fume is a he.
Gah! I know! Every time I see the name 'Lorrinar', I see it as a female name. Every time I find out Lorrinar is actually male, I'm surprised! Well, to sort out confusion, Lorrinar is going to be female in my campaign, and we'll leave it at that.
The Legion are already helping Lorrinar out by spying for him, but in terms of actual strength of arms, the Legion doesn't really have much. Not would it use it, since they believe more in peace and so on. If Lorrinar was to ally with the Knights of Takhisis, even if only briefly, for the extent of the war on Solamnia, they'd have a chance.
And the idea only came about from the suggestion of an Estwilde invasion of Solamnia.
Perhaps the same idea, only with Cinder allying with the Knights of Neraka? Give Lorrinar a chance to use his alliance with the Legion to strike a blow against Cinder, or something. If Cinder is so smart, he'd know that with the resources of Solamnia behind him, he'd have a much greater chance of defeating Lorrinar and all her forces.
Originally posted by pddisc
I'm not sure I follow this logic. Why does Ansalon lacking an ancient empire ruled by barbaric masters mean that Gellidus has to die? Really, you could say that Gellidus is a barbaric master, and he has his dragon realm.
You could, if not for the fact that it is impossible to sustain cities on glaciers. Everyone starved to death 15 years ago... unless you beleive that Gellidus allows the land to thaw enough for people to plant crops.
Now, I realize that a barbarian ruled ancient empire is not very interesting, but I do know that it is a lot more interesting than Icewall 2.
An invasion by the people of Estwilde is unlikely. Cannibals tend not to work well with non-cannibals, and they'll count for a fair part of the population. Also, their low level of civilisation is going to make them at a fair disadvantage when battling the well trained forces of the Solamnic army.
Yeah, I'm not in favour of overrunning Solamnia with barbarians. However, I must correct you on the cannibals. There is only one tribe that practices it, the Lahutians.
Now, if Lorrinar was to form a pact with the Knights of Neraka to help protect her from Cinder, and in return donating her forces for a joint attack on Solamnia, possibly to offer to Cinder so that he'll leave her alone (what would a green dragon want with all those plains anyway?)...
A green dragon would like cattle. They fill the belly, especially since the DLCS describes that he has mostly hunted out the woods of Lahue.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Look over the two dragon's statistics sometime, too - you'll note that Cinder is not only smarter than Fume, he's more perceptive and has a greater confidence.
Hmm... I suppose he is. Int 26 vs. Int 22. However, I think that Cinder is very intelligent but not very smart. His potential for problem solving, learning, and such is probably tremendous but his actions show that he doesn't fullfill his potential, because he acts like an idiot. It would seem that our dear Cinder is ambitious but relies on brute strength and power and is thus an academic underachiever. The fact that he got his name for his pleasure in destroying things with his breath weapon seems to support that.
In all likelihood, Cinder will eventually gather his resources together and make an attack on the Woods of Lahue, only to find that Fume has already left.
That would ruin a perfectly good feud, wouldn't it?
Yeah, I'm not in favour of overrunning Solamnia with barbarians. However, I must correct you on the cannibals. There is only one tribe that practices it, the Lahutians.
OK, only one tribe are cannibals, but no one's going to want to work with them, which is what I was saying.
I'm not sure how many large animals could have managed to live in the Woods anyway, since it's supposed to be so dense and thick. Where, in fact, does the green go? I'm guessing he's a fairly big dragon - how does he fit without bashing all the trees down?
How far west does Lorrinar claim? The DLCS says that the eastern boundary is the Astivar mountain range, but how much is the entire region? The political map is no help either, having missed Lorrinar entirely.
Originally posted by ferratus
It would seem that our dear Cinder is ambitious but relies on brute strength and power and is thus an academic underachiever.
He's chaotic evil. It's in the nature of red dragons to be very intelligent yet exceptionally violent and dangerous individuals. Another reason to admire Ariakas and Verminaard for their relationship with their own mounts.
That would ruin a perfectly good feud, wouldn't it?
This would come at the end of the perfectly good feud. No sense something going on forever. Plus, it just opens the conflict to a broader arena, as Cinder works to find out where Fume has fled and other dragons start to get involved.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
This would come at the end of the perfectly good feud. No sense something going on forever. Plus, it just opens the conflict to a broader arena, as Cinder works to find out where Fume has fled and other dragons start to get involved.
Yeah, and if Fume disappears then the logical extension of that broader arena is for Fume to claim the desolation. After all, Fume ran away, which means that Cinder is victorious. He'll still look for Fume of course, but he'll have bigger fish to fry.
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, and if Fume disappears then the logical extension of that broader arena is for Fume to claim the desolation. After all, Fume ran away, which means that Cinder is victorious. He'll still look for Fume of course, but he'll have bigger fish to fry.
Assuming there's no other red dragons his size and power in the Desolation already. Right?
It's easy to be overshadowed when Malys is casting the shadow...
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Assuming there's no other red dragons his size and power in the Desolation already. Right?
It's easy to be overshadowed when Malys is casting the shadow...
So who is he? The only one I could consider to be a rival would be Fyremantle, but I don't think he is a Great Wyrm. Even if he is, I don't think it would prevent Cinder from fighting him, and frankly Cinder would win, IMO.
Besides, what else is one going to do with Cinder after Fume leaves? If Fume goes to Qualinesti, are you going to have Cinder burn down Abanisania so he can be neighbours with Fume again? That makes that red dragon rather pathetic doesn't it?
If Fume grows into greater power (as ruler of Beryl's old realm) then Cinder should grow into greater power as well (as ruler of Malys' old realm).
Originally posted by ferratus
Besides, what else is one going to do with Cinder after Fume leaves? If Fume goes to Qualinesti, are you going to have Cinder burn down Abanisania so he can be neighbours with Fume again? That makes that red dragon rather pathetic doesn't it?
Quite frankly, I don't think I would worry about that until I had set the campaign up and flesh out the plotline a little. Lorrinar's departure wouldn't come into the game until many game months, perhaps as much as a year - in the interim, there'd be an ongoing feud, the Legion's involvement, Cinder's quest for magical armament, Fume's quest for protective items, and so on.
I know it's an interesting thought exercise to carry this kind of thing out to its logical conclusion, but I don't have it in me to worry about it at the moment. I like how things are, as a starting point for any number of optional paths, and I also appreciate that the novels have their own role to play in the growth of the setting. My campaign's only just got underway and at this point it has nothing to do with Fume or Cinder... and I'm not working on any projects which involve them either (working on those stats was the last thing Andre' and I did with them.)
So, feel free to take it where you want it to go - but at this stage, Cinder's where he is, Fume's where he is, they're doing what their rap sheets say they're doing, and that's how things are in Northern Ansalon.
And now with the weather, it's over to you, Paxina Thistleknot...
Cheers,
Cam