Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 rumblebelly Dec 11, 2003 14:11:07	So, the player who will run the group's cleric of St. Cuthbert in my upcoming campaign brought up an issue which has bugged me for some time: How do Polytheistic religions work in GH, or any fantasy setting for that matter? He says, "I've never been too sure as to how D&D religion worked anyway. All real world panthistic [sic] religions almost never have 'congregations' or regular holy days of worship, it was more like worship before harvest or planting or war. I've always felt like that is the reason you never read about a cleric, heroes are always the fighter or wizard or thief, because no one is quite sure how a religion set up in the D&D sense would work." What thoughts or insights do you folks have on the matter? I have my own ideas, but I would like to hear how other people have handled this issue. I remember back in the day of 1st edition AD&D, Clerics were pretty general and I didn't like that, but now I think there might be something to that in a Polytheistic system.
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 11, 2003 14:17:18	Pantheistic or polytheistic?
#3 rumblebelly Dec 11, 2003 14:52:24	Excuse, me. You're correct. I meant Polytheistic; I've edited my posts accordingly. I confused myself because I am playing with the concept of the "Pantheon Priest," i.e., a priest that knows which gods preside over which domains or portfolios and attempts to call on the right gods at the right times.
#4 Monteblanco Dec 11, 2003 19:25:54	Originally posted by Rumblebelly Excuse, me. You're correct. I meant Polytheistic; I've edited my posts accordingly. I confused myself because I am playing with the concept of the "Pantheon Priest," i.e., a priest that knows which gods preside over which domains or portfolios and attempts to call on the right gods at the right times. Which is the exact way I interpreted the cleric back in AD&D 1st edition. I also find religion confusing in D&D. Although there is plenty of examples of priests devoted to a single god in polytheistic religions, most of the people would ask for assistance from different gods depending of the situation. I would guess that, in small comunities, clerics would be able to comune with several gods, otherwise it would be impossible to deal with the variety of the people demands.
#5 robbastard Dec 11, 2003 21:55:10	I have a Rover specialty priest in the works--I just haven't got around to doing all the stats (3E). My polytheistic view of Rover theology can be found here: part 1: http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=374 part 2: http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=375 I've also done a piece on Druidism in the Flanaess: http://homepages.ius.edu/rvest/Greyhawk/Druidism.html and a 3E specialty priest of Pelor: http://homepages.ius.edu/rvest/Greyhawk/Pelor.html
#6 rumblebelly Dec 12, 2003 0:06:44	Thank you, your Rover views have given me some good idea. What my player and I have decided to work on a Pantheon that includes all the gods designated as "common." The priest will start as a priest of X, say, St. Cuthbert, with access to Cuthbert's domains. Each increase in level, or every other or some such, a priest will be initiated into a new "Mystery," i.e., will gain access to another deity's domain of spell casting. I like what you have dones with Pelor's spells, giving his priests access to magic that specifically fits his portfolio, and I would like to do that for all the priests, but, you know, it's just a matter of having the time to do it. Monteblanco, I agree about the small communities, but how does Polytheism work in large communties like say ancient Rome or Ancient Greece? Anyway, my idea is to have Priests make a Religion check to make sure they call on that right god at the right moment, or else risk offending one or more of the powers who might have some jurisdiction over the area in question. Does this all make sense?
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 9:14:00	First things first: As D&D exists in the PHB, there is only one religion, of which clerics are priests of specific cults. They are dedicated to the service of a particular god, but still believe in all of the others. When adding racial and regional pantheons we get closer to reality in that there are now several religions with multiple cults. For example, in our history under Rome, western Europe saw three religions: The Celts (Gaellic and Isles), the Teutons, and the Romans. Each had their own multitude of gods with a plethora of cults dedicated to each god. Some, like the Romans, built temples. Others, like the Celts, didn't. Others, the Teutons, split the difference. (Side note: There are also two styles of religious expression, Apollonian and Dyonesian. Apollonian is the temple building, structured and ordered cult while Dyonesian doesn't built much, is far more chaotic and less structured, and priests have far less authority. Modern examples: Christianity is an Apollonian religion, Voodoo is a Dyonesian religion.) So, how does polytheism work? Very simply, actually. If a person has a need to make an offering or pray to a speciifc god, they do. Sometimes the cult of that god is very structured and instructs in the proper way to do these things, sometimes not. Some cults build temples, some don't. Clerics of some gods teach large amounts of theology, others don't. Wee Jas has a very structured clergy and theology, Obad-Hai does not. Each individual person chooses whether or not they favor the worship of one god or another, usually based around lifestyle and goals. Farmers might worship Pelor or Obad-Hai while a king might worship Heironeous. The nature of a dedicated priest or worshipper is that they venerate that god first and foremost. They might worship other gods, but they choose to make most of their offerings and prayers to a specific god. The reality is that most people don't ever really dedicate themselves to any god. As a note, Deities and Demgods discusses the difference between a loose pantheon like that of D&D and a tight pantheon such as the historical ones named already. Within a loose pantheon idea, people are often dedicants of a specific god and members in their cult, often excluding the other gods. In a tight pantheon, dedication happens, but worship of the other gods continues. Priests in a loose pantheon don't need to worry about honoring any of the other gods. Priests in a tight pantheon may be priests of a specific god (or none of them, actually), but they continue to lead rites dedicated to other gods as well. In D&D terms, a cleric of a tight pantheon would derive his magic from the god he's dedicated to, but is not forbidden to honor the other gods. This issue does not arise for a cleric of a loose pantheon, as it more closely resembles monotheistic religion today. A cleric of a specific god in a loose pantheon worships that god first and foremost, almost to the exclusion of other gods (an issue of varying theologies). They might make an offering to other gods in their temple, but they will make bigger, grander offerings to their own god.
#8 rumblebelly Dec 12, 2003 11:46:29	Thank you, for the thoughtful response. It makes sense that polytheistic religions work in the ways you described; what I want to figure out is how to work out the mechanics for priests, with spell domains and whatnot. Maybe a Pantheon Priest Prestige class is in order! I like the idea of the tight pantheon you described; I think it provides endless role-playing plotibilities (Plot + possibilities).
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 14:07:10	If you want to include a pantheisitc religion, I'd include all of the "nature" domains because the main idea of pantheism is that the divine is in all things, but there is no "God" of any kind. In truth, it's not likely to really have a priest, as it's not really a "religion" as we know it. However, you can design it however you want.
#10 rumblebelly Dec 12, 2003 14:15:14	I might include a truly Pantheistic religion just to have a heresy around to persecute! And I agree that this would include all the nature domains. I also think that pantheists would tend to be monks, not priests, like the Shaolin of China, or the Taoists.
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 18:26:51	Originally posted by Rumblebelly He says, "I've never been too sure as to how D&D religion worked anyway. All real world panthistic [sic] religions almost never have 'congregations' or regular holy days of worship, it was more like worship before harvest or planting or war." Basically, your friend is wrong. If by pantheistic he actually ment polytheistic that is. We know through archaeology and historical accounts that the romans, egyptians, babylonians, celts, aztecs, hawaiian etc etc religions all had specific holy days during the year, although more often than not these days were not fixed on a calender, but roamed around a bit (just like easter). And as for congregations, how about the mystery cults of isis or mithras, or the religious orders attached to various gods such as the Bacchae, or the members of a gaulish tribe and their Tuetates (tribal god). If you want a modern example of a polytheistic religion that covers these sort of topics, research Hinduism. As for how I handle it in game, clerics either serve one god, or a pantheon (such as Oerdian gods). If they are a pantheonic priest, they choose any 2 domains from a list that I made that includes any domain that at least two gods of that pantheon can grant. Exceptions to this: Flan have druids for pantheonic priests, and the olman gods are a tad to jelous to allow this. For everyone else, they do not have to venerate one god (except for followers of pholtus that is, ;) ) and worship whoever is the best choice at the time. If you remember that in polytheistic religion a single god doesn't have a monopoly on divine favour, you won't go wrong.
#12 rumblebelly Dec 13, 2003 0:29:58	Originally posted by Hygric Basically, your friend is wrong. If by pantheistic he actually ment polytheistic that is. Yeah, he meant polytheistic, and I know he's wrong about the holidays and whatnot, but it still raised an important question for me. I like your idea for what domains a pantheonic priest can have access to, I might adopt it. Then, those domains remaining that only specific gods can grant will become "Mysteries." So someone could serve the Suel Pantheon, but only gain access to the "Death" domain by being initiated into the "Mysteries" of Wee Jas. This will put a new spin on priests in my campaign, I think. Thanks, for the post. I'll look into Hinduism as well. Cheers!
#13 zombiegleemax Dec 13, 2003 7:49:52	As an additional thought, and probably not a popular one, I would give a pantheistic cleric some occasional bonus feats, but I would only allow them one domain. They are tapping into something directly instead of having the powers granted to them by an actual god.
#14 rumblebelly Dec 13, 2003 22:19:36	Originally posted by Raych As an additional thought, and probably not a popular one, I would give a pantheistic cleric some occasional bonus feats, but I would only allow them one domain. They are tapping into something directly instead of having the powers granted to them by an actual god. Yeah, I guess one could say that Pantheonic priests tap into a spirit or an ethos. Definitely something to think about.
#15 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 10:07:27	There's a sharp divide also in the difference between how clergy and ordinary people worshipped in most real-world pantheistic and polytheistic religions. Even in ancient times it was fairly unusual for clergy to be "generic" priests of "the gods". Often, within most pantheist faiths, clergies and temples were often dedicated to a single god and serviced by priests committed to that god. Since gods typically had narrow areas of concern, that meant that the gods and their clergy were "specialists" for some element of life's problems. Typically the clergy of the pantheon head served to bring it all together under one umbrella. But in large, multicultural nations you often saw much more fragmentation. The Roman Empire, for example, contained not just devotees of the Greco-Roman pantheon, but followers of older Etruscan gods not precisely analogous to those of the Greeks, the Egyptian gods, assorted gods from Mesopotamia and Iran, various gods of the Teutonic and Celtic peoples, and some more familiar faiths that are still around like Yahwehism (Judaism) and Zoroastrianism. Within that environment you had a mix of scenarios. The Jews refused to worship any gods other than Yahweh, which annoyed the heck out of many Romans. But some Romans, especially ones living in the remote provinces of the empire, took up the worship of "foreign" gods, and there were many Roman adherents to cults like Mithraism or the gods of northern and eastern Europe. Many Roman soliders in Germany and the Celtic regions worshipped Epona, a goddess of horses that was not a Roman deity. In most cases though, it was not unusual for a particular area to have a "preferred" deity. The Jews worshipped Yahweh, even with many attempts made to insert pagan gods and their temples in Judea. People of Rome often venerated Mars more highly than any other god. Farther afield in Greece a more abstract focus on Zeus/Jupiter laid the groundwork for Greek adoption of montheism in later Christian times. In Greyhawk most people probably have a primary patron deity, but also make offerings to other deities based on what they're doing. Hextor and Zilchus, for example, were prominent gods of the Great Kingdom, and the focus of most noble worship. But the "seasonal" gods (Telchur, Atroa, Sotillion and Wenta) were honored at the appropriate solstices and equinoxes. Travellers would make offerings to Fharlangan (by road) or Procan (by sea). A Hextor-worshipping Naelax prince might make oferrings to any of the above gods in the appropriate circumstances, but would still hold Hextor up as their primary religion. This would be analogous to a Roman Centurion who primarily venerates Mars making offerings Epona while serving on the frontier and to Neptune if sailing back to Rome.
#16 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 13:30:58	Psionycx said it very well. Religion during the Roman Empire provides a very useful model for Greyhawk campaigns -- especially in the well settled states of the Flanaess. It's important to remember that the several human pantheons are not as "tight" as the term implies. The pantheons are from ancient cultures, and a millenium of diffusion has occured, so religion throughout the Flanaess is marked by hybridity and syncretism. (Nice words, eh? I learned syncretism from Greytalking; it means: the merging or fusion of differing systems of belief where success is partial and the "result" is heterogeneous.) In practice, this means that you can do what you want and justify it relatively easily. The migration pattern graphic is useful, see LGG 4, as are the historical descriptions of each region. However, one of the best aids is from the 1983 boxed set. See Guide to the World of Greyhawk 13-14 (describing the "Characteristics of the Races Inhabiting the Flanaess" and explaining that "[t]here are few pure racial groups extant on the Flanaess"). Finally, I associate Epona with Ehlonna -- giving her the sobriquet "Horsemother," as she was worshipped by the Flan of the lands north of the Nyr Dyv -- of whom the Arapahi (Rovers of the Barrens) are the ultimate descendants. IMC, this sort of worship is also retained in the Duchy and County of Ulek and in Celene. A "school" of Ehlonnan Riders exists to the northwest of Courwood. The maidens and ladies train and are closely associated with the priestesses of Lydia, who teach at the Lyceum in Courwood.
#17 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 16:32:10	Thanks Tizoc! Going back to Rumblebelly's original question, my analogy involving the Hextoran holds for Cuthbertines as well. A worshipper of St. Cuthbert typically follows him for moral strength, protection and guidance. A typical Cuthbertine will, depending on ethnicity, probably make occaisional offerings to other gods depending on context. For example, many farmers worship St. Cuthbert (see the Village of Hommlet). But it would not necessarily be considered heretical for them to make offerings to the Oeridian argricultural gods, to Phyton (if Suloise) or to Beory (most people) at planting or at harvest. In this regard Medieval Catholicism is probably your best model actually. They worshipped a primary God, but also venerated saints who were seen as intercessors, especially in relation to specific aspects of life. The Cuthbertine probably sees St. Cuthbert as their main god, but also offers prayers to other gods as circumstances warrant. St. Cuthbert probably has little problem with this. Pholtus is a rare example of a god who pushes monotheism on Oerth. St. Cuthbert would likely only object to offerings or prayer being made to gods he opposes, like Iuz or Incabulos. Clerics, however, are a different matter. They are typically expected to be a little more singular in their focus. They may show respect for gods that are allied to their own, but probably won't offer any worship to them. St. Cuthbert's clerics are likely to get along well with Rao's (even though they've got their heads in the clouds) or Heironeous's (even though they're often too removed from the concerns of common folk) or even Zilchus (even though they're too materialistic). They would feel some religious tension with gods that are opposed to St. Cuthbert's ethos such as Trithereon (too anarchistic) or Olidamarra (too libertine). Gods with highy-focused areas of concern, like agriculture or travel probably aren't too much of a concern. But a cleric should always swear by their own god first and avoid praying to others. They will also encourage the laity to do the same. Although lawful neutral Pholtans will demand absolute monotheism from everyone in sight.
#18 rumblebelly Dec 20, 2003 18:09:01	Thanks, for the in-depth replies Psionycx, I find them very helpful. What more can I say?