Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 11, 2003 18:45:08	Weekly Greychat, tonight: Thursday , December 11th, 2003 8 PM Eastern Standard Time / 1am GMT (friday) til whenever! Come chat about any and all things Greyhawk, or whatever else is on your mind (within reason of course, it is a Greyhawk chat after all) in the world of gaming. How can we keep this setting alive or is that just blowing proverbial smoke? We're there all night, so don't let being late scare you off! As usual, the chat takes place on the Psionics.net irc server, and there are two basic options for those wishing to come by: Point your irc client to: Server: chat.psionics.net Port: 6667 Channel: #greytalk Irc clients are advanced chat programs, such as mirc, pirch, trillian, etc. Visit http://www.psionics.net/downloads.html if you don't have an irc client and would like to download one for free. If you don't have an irc client, Psionics.net and Canonfire.com have joined forces to make the chats accesible to you! Visit http://www.psionics.net/chat/java/chat1.html to use the handy Java interface. Once the applet loads, just replace -guest- with your desired nickname for the chat and select -greytalk- from the drop down channel menu. Then click the -Connect Now!- button and voila, you're chattin in Greychat! Look forward to seeing everyone there! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Canonfire! Greytalk-on-the-Web http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew/ Visit the Greytalk Web Forum at http://www.canonfire.com/forum/ Or Search the Archives: http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/greytalk.nsf
#2 xiphias_dup Dec 12, 2003 13:33:15	I have to say something because, like a lot of people on these boards, I support Greyhawk and hate to see any of that support lose its footing... I don't attend Greychat very often, but my visit last night surprised me, to say the least. Rather than a focused deabte on the subject of Greyhawk, the discussion degenerated into one long string of rants and expletives aimed at anyone who has ever offended the regulars of Greychat on these boards. I have a few friends that I had intended to refer to Greychat (one of whom is younger), but after last night, that's never going to happen. I'm all for freedom of speech, but last night was pushing the limits not to mention the patience of those who had come to attend Greychat for a setting-related discusssion. It wasn't pleasant at all, it felt more like a mean-spirited locker-room...
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 14:05:45	I'm all for freedom of speech, but last night was pushing the limits not to mention the patience of those who had come to attend Greychat for a setting-related discusssion. It wasn't pleasant at all, it felt more like a mean-spirited locker-room... Are you really so surprised? That's what happens when people treat the place like their own living-room and less like a forum with rules and guidelines to be respected. Be grateful that we have moderators on these boards, otherwise the same thing would happen here, and I, for one, wouldn't hang around very long...
#4 samwise Dec 12, 2003 14:45:20	First, it was not directed against everyone who had ever offended us. If it had, we'd have ranted for significantly longer than we did. As it was, a few choice remarks were directed at a number of individuals who have chosen to be antagonistic towards one or more people who were in the room that night. Second, the primary participants have long been adults. As such, we use expletives. If the room being for adults is too much for you, so be it, that chat is simply not for you. There is nothing wrong with that. Not every forum or manner of discussions is for every individual. Third, there is rarely any focused debate on Greyhawk. This is mostly due to the fact that we discuss it rather than debate. Most debates have to do with outside material used as background, rather than the actual Greyhawk content itself. Oddly, last night actually did feature one of the few Greyhawk debates, as we went back and forth on the Demi-Human pantheons. Fourth, because the chat does not have any hard and fast rules or requirements for discussions, in order to discuss something you want, all you need to do is start talking about it, and find someone to respond. If you won't start talking yourself, you can not blame others for failing to entertain you upon command. If no one else cares to discuss a particular topic at that time, then again you can not hold others responsible for not being interested in what you are interested in. That happens when people talk about things. Not every topic posted here gets a multitude of replies, and not everything mentioned there will either.
#5 xiphias_dup Dec 12, 2003 15:19:53	First, it was not directed against everyone who had ever offended us. If it had, we'd have ranted for significantly longer than we did. As it was, a few choice remarks were directed at a number of individuals who have chosen to be antagonistic towards one or more people who were in the room that night. A few choice remarks? I'm tempted to post a transcript I saved from that session just to refute you, but I'm afraid the sheer number of astericks would make the Watergate tapes look clean by comparison. Furthermore, bigotry and slurs about homosexuality are unacceptable, anywhere. And what does a juvenile discussion on beastiality accomplish? What do these things have to do with Greyhawk? I really doubt people enjoy sitting through a thirty minute debate between two posters on who is the bigger "assman." You'd think there were nothing but teenagers posting last night... But then again, you're right, I'm free not to participate, and I probably won't anymore. Nor will I refer anyone to Greychat. But since it is an outside forum, perhaps all future ads for Greychat should be banned from this site. That's something I'll have to look into, I suppose.
#6 erik_mona Dec 12, 2003 15:26:50	The secret is to come very early, or very late (which is what I usually do). By that time everyone with an axe to grind has ground it, and people are generally interested in talking about Greyhawk. The chat is weird. Many of us have been attending since about 1996 or so, in one form or another. The chats generally last for six or so hours. Given all that time, there's a good deal of history between some of the visitors. I know what types of discussions are going to raise Sam's hackles, and vice versa. Sometimes people argue because they're bored, or because no one's talking about Greyhawk. My personal time has become limited over the last few years, and I find myself less and less interested about the various arguments that pop up in the chat. I tend to stay for a while when people are discussing Greyhawk. On nights where it seems no one is interested in talking about the setting I either try to shift the topic in the right direction or I take off. The chat'll be there next week. As for kids, well, I think it's fair to say that the chat is more adult-oriented (perhaps because most Greyhawk fans are 25-45 or perhaps due to the late-night nature of the chats). After a while, this starts to seem like a feature and not a bug. ;) --Erik Mona
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 15:35:35	Sounds like anywhere else on the internet really, a catharsis for little lost misanthropes who've had a bad week and need a place to vent over a roasting newbie on a spit. But you get that.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 15:37:37	...the primary participants have long been adults. As such, we use expletives... Speak for yourself. Don't generalize the rest of us by what you choose to do with your language. An unmoderated site like Greychat is the reason my children won't have internet access until they are much older. Maturity, respect, and compassion are words that seem to be lost on a good many of the posters there...
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 15:47:17	Second, the primary participants have long been adults. I'll have to see some I.D.
#10 cwslyclgh Dec 12, 2003 15:48:36	I guess most of xip's problems must have happened while I was gone? (I was on from 5:30-7 or so, and then again from 9:30-midnight)... while I was there a couple of jabs were thrown at a person who wasn't there (and appearently dislikes the place), and a few adult words were bandied about, but I would not say that anything was that horrid... heck we even had some good discussions about the Lerara, the Juggernaught, and EGG's use of medival demonology in naming arch-devils and demon-lords in the 1st edition MM and MM2.
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 18:42:48	Originally posted by xiphias I don't attend Greychat very often, but my visit last night surprised me, to say the least. Rather than a focused deabte on the subject of Greyhawk, the discussion degenerated into one long string of rants and expletives aimed at anyone who has ever offended the regulars of Greychat on these boards. I have a few friends that I had intended to refer to Greychat (one of whom is younger), but after last night, that's never going to happen. That's strange. I remember you laughing at a lot of those comments... I'm with Samwise on this one. If you come to a chatroom, ANY chatroom, and expect to be entertained, your expectations are arrogant and selfish. Long-standing chatrooms have long-standing members who have long-standing grudges and friendships. Sometimes the topic strays because, quite frankly, who wants to talk about Greyhawk for 10 hours (that's how long the chats can sometimes go)? It is a social event for fans of Greyhawk, not your personal question and answer session. If you want to come to the chat, do nothing, or just demand answers to your questions... well, quite frankly, I don't think you're welcome anyway. But if you come in and start a conversation and someone replies, then you latch on to that and continue the conversation. It's called active participation. I have found, over the last 2 or so years of attending the chats, that if you actively participate, you'll get your Greyhawk discussion in abundance. The people who attend ARE, after all, Greyhawk fans. You might not like what you hear, but then you also have to remember that you ARE in an adult forum where people will express their OPINIONS. You will also find that if you are engaged in a project of any type for Greyhawk, whether it be for publication or a fansite or even your own campaign, that the people there will usually help you brainstorm ideas and point out holes in your canon logic and generally aid you in the process. But then again, don't go there expecting everyone to be your personal editor. Originally posted by xiphias I'm all for freedom of speech, but last night was pushing the limits not to mention the patience of those who had come to attend Greychat for a setting-related discusssion. It wasn't pleasant at all, it felt more like a mean-spirited locker-room... Like I said, it is a long-standing chatroom with long-standing relationships between long-standing attendees. The two in question have known each other through the chat for quite some time (I'm not sure how long, to be honest, but at least over a year) and so for fifteen minutes or so had it out with each other. If you don't like it, change the subject. Pipe up that you think they're disrupting the chat. Tell them to take it PM. Talk about Greyhawk. You'll notice, in those logs of yours, that the surrounding discussion was still about Greyhawk, so you coming in here and bad-mouthing the channel by saying the entire channel was engaged in some sort of dren-fight, is really bad-form. And that's another thing. In any chatroom, there can be several conversations going on at once. Just because there's a fight in one corner, doesn't mean there isn't productive discussion in another. If you're not going to be pro-active and seek to change the channel discussion towards something positive, then all you are is a whiner who seeks to disparage others publically in order to get some sort of ego-boosting satisfaction in a vain attempt to prove that you're somehow better. If you're not going to be productive yourself, then you're not better, you're worse.
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 18:43:07	Let me clarify one thing here: Greychat is NOT a 'site' or 'forum' It's a chatroom, we get together once a week to hang out and shoot the breeze. We're all Greyhawk fans, but there is no moderation and no hard and fast topics, so yeah, sometimes it gets a little crazy. Canonfire, on the other hand, is painstaking "everyone friendly", and the behavior that we exhibit in the chat would not be tolerated on our forum. The Greytalk discussion group, sort of the father of the chats, is likewise much more civil, aside from an occasional flamewar, but that's the case anywhere you go.
#13 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 18:46:23	Originally posted by sedrorovin murghurobag Speak for yourself. Don't generalize the rest of us by what you choose to do with your language. I believe Samwise was speaking for himself, and other 'primary participants' of the weekly Greychat, like me. And yes, for the record, we're all, with one or two exceptions, adults.
#14 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 18:56:33	For the record folks, Originally posted by PSmedger Weekly Greychat, tonight: Thursday , December 11th, 2003 8 PM Eastern Standard Time / 1am GMT (friday) til whenever! Come chat about any and all things Greyhawk, or whatever else is on your mind (within reason of course, it is a Greyhawk chat after all) in the world of gaming. I wrote that invitation some time ago (we recycle it with minor changes to reflect the weeks general theme). Everyone is welcome. Yes, it is an 'adult' chat, with a definite PG-13 tone. If we offend people, I do apoligize, but to be completely honest, if last night's rantings were shocking, some of the past chats would truely horrify you. The general tone of the chat has mellowed considerably of late, and as Erik pointed out, early on or later on in the evening things do tend to be more productive. Also, I can't speak for everyone, but I do know that I for one would gladly drop whatever rant I'm engaged in if someone brings up an interesting Greyhawk topic. All I can suggest is that instead of coming here to complain the next day, if you feel the chat is being unproductive, say so at the chat and offer up a topic, sometimes you'll be ignored, but sometimes we'll listen, that's just how it goes with any chatroom, including Greychat. I will also get with Gary this week about possibly adding a "pg-13 language" warning to the announcement since the point about the chats being unfriendly to very young children is valid. Seeing as how the youngest guys we've ever had are at least 15 or 16 though, I really don't think it's too out of line. If you think the internet is the only place a teenager is going to hear the "f word" these days though, you're sadly mistaken.
#15 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 19:06:57	Originally posted by xiphias A few choice remarks? I'm tempted to post a transcript I saved from that session just to refute you, but I'm afraid the sheer number of astericks would make the Watergate tapes look clean by comparison. Don't give in to that temptation. There's a reason we don't post logs of the chats, and never have. I think you can imagine what that reason is. Let me also point out that after reading the log myself, the "argument" between Samwise and Dethalion that seems to be half of the complaint here was rather tongue in cheek, the usual banter you'd expect between guys hanging around chatting, online or off. The other half of the complaint is probably my ranting (I'm chatdemon there, for those who might not have made the connection). I was, honestly, quite serious, but the targets of my agressive language are fully aware of my opinions, and the feelings are definitely mutual, so it's not like there is any secret two faced talk going on, just a less moderated chance to vent.
#16 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 19:17:37	Originally posted by xiphias But since it is an outside forum, perhaps all future ads for Greychat should be banned from this site. That's something I'll have to look into, I suppose. That is wizo Jedi's decision to make, but let me extend an invitation to him to next week's chat to see for himself what we're up to there before "banning" our announcements, which noone else has complained about until now. Aside from a few minutes of me ranting and a few minutes of Samwise and Dethalion 'talking smack' there were, as others have pointed out, a handful of productive greyhawk topics, hopefully adding a 'this chat is pg-13, parental discretion advised' label to our announcement will suffice at making them kosher here.
#17 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 19:19:51	I'm 16 and I've been to Greychat like a million times...never had a problem, laughed quite a bit, learned a ton of random stuff about Greyhawk I keep in a nice little notepad for future use, and not only that, but I'm not offended by people swearing since lets face it...it boils down to a bunch of old guys late at night...of course they're mad! They're old! hehe jk. Seriously though, never had a problem with Greychat and I think you're over-reacting to a couple guys throwing some obscenities...unless they clean up the language when I'm around...
#18 xiphias_dup Dec 12, 2003 19:52:22	Don't give in to that temptation. There's a reason we don't post logs of the chats, and never have. I think you can imagine what that reason is. Yes, I guess you're right. No one wants to read a transcript of verbal incontinence. Let me also point out that after reading the log myself, the "argument" between Samwise and Dethalion that seems to be half of the complaint here was rather tongue in cheek, the usual banter you'd expect between guys hanging around chatting, online or off. Don't try to downplay it or laugh it off. It was offensive, plain and simple, and hardly indicative of a friendly open-forum. If we offend people, I do apoligize, but to be completely honest, if last night's rantings were shocking, some of the past chats would truely horrify you Well, that doesn't surprise me. You know, I'm starting to see why Greychat has such a low attendance record. You're not winning any converts by defending this kind of behavior, either. Anyway, I've stated my feelings on this matter. I have nothing further to say.
#19 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 19:59:04	Originally posted by xiphias Don't try to downplay it or laugh it off. It was gay-bashing, plain and simple, and hardly indicative of a friendly open-forum. I've known Samwise online for 3 or 4 years, and Dethalion for about a year, neither are homophobes or "gay-bashers", it was simply poor taste "talking smack". Complaining about the tone of the chat is one thing, labelling specific people as gay bashers is definitely in violation of the rules of this forum, I'd suggest you drop it.
#20 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 20:09:19	Well, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.
#21 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 20:25:47	chatdemon has better things to do than stoop to the level of someone who can't see the difference between debating actual behavior on the forum and calling someone a homophobe. :D
#22 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 20:28:00	You know, I'm starting to see why Greychat has such a low attendance record. You're not winning any converts by defending this kind of behavior, either. Glad to see you're catching on, Xiphias.
#23 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 20:30:20	you know what would be really fun? if all yall complaining would step out from behind your aliases and le us see the real reasons for your complaints. i doubt that will happen though, too bad, it would be fun...
#24 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 20:34:39	Sounds like anywhere else on the internet really, a catharsis for little lost misanthropes who've had a bad week and need a place to vent Greychat wouldn't appear to be the only place they set up shop.
#25 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 20:34:46	Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they're all DF people. One day, we should just have a big brawl and settle it once and for all. Who has the biggest schwartz, Greytalk or Dragonsfoot? :D
#26 zombiegleemax Dec 12, 2003 21:05:08	I don't see a need to disallow future advertisements, but adding a note advising people that the language used may be of a more adult nature sounds like a good idea. I cannot discipline people here for what they say in an irc channel elsewhere. And thanks for the invite, but I would probably be the most ignorant person in the room in regards to the setting. Drog the Rouge rules! This thread has gotten a little too heated to keep open though. ::click::