Look at it this way, Wotc sees Greyhawk as a waste of time because there are plenty of people out there who won't buy non-Gygax stuff, other people who simply sit around and bash other fan's works etc. It's like a desolate wasteland of non-profiting. But there has to be a way to change it, and writing letters and telling the company we want it won't help since the second it comes out all the Gygax lovers will trounce it, all the Sargent lovers will trounce it, and all the anti-wotc people will trounce it too regardless of content.
Now, for me, I REALLY REALLY WANT SOME NEW PRODUCTS, so here's our task, how do we convince the fanbase that a new product wouldn't be crap just because writer X would do it; this could cause most of the fanbase to want a new product and would show wizards that there is a unified Greyhawk fanbase to sell to. Lets face it, right now there can be a million fans but if only 10% or 20% of those fans buy it, whats the point of making it? Thus we need unity people!
I don't get into any of the rivalries pertaining to who writes for the awesome GH setting. People might as well flame each other over ice cream flavors. Some like vanilla and ohers like chocolate, and that's just the way it is. No amount of bitter pronouncements or insults will change the flavor a person likes. But, those same acrimonious flames will harden hearts and build angst.
I don't know why WotC has not issued a license or published large-scale material for GH. I do know everyone out there has their opinion. And hopefully this thread will not become a discussion rehashing those conspiracies. But, and this is my point in this thread, the GH "infighting," arguing and animosity probably does not help - as is also the point of ColdPenguin sharing his thoughts in the above thread. If it's going to be counter-productive to getting anything published for GH, perhaps we should tone down the devisive flaming.
But hey, this is the internet, and people are going to exercise their freedom and use cyber-anonymity to blast and flame to their heart's content. There's no room for courteous criticism, you have to unload on an issue for some reason. That seems to be the nature of online communication. In a utopian GH, we'd all get along
Originally posted by Greyson
But hey, this is the internet, and people are going to exercise their freedom and use cyber-anonymity to blast and flame to their heart's content. There's no room for courteous criticism, you have to unload on an issue for some reason. That seems to be the nature of online communication. In a utopian GH, we'd all get along
My name is Djoran Keil and I live at 832 Burke Road, Camberwell, Australia.
Although, I agree, there is no room for courteous critcism when what some people truly need is a good thumping.
I think if we showed Wizard's that there was a massive fanbase (which there would be without the division), and that it was full of fans who would not only buy but ENJOY a new product, they might just turn around thier policy.
The first step would be to acknowledge in a civilized manner the high points of each Greyhawk setting, like maybe you didn't like the GH Wars but enjoyed the dark feeling it left over the Flanaess? What I'm getting at is we need to stop saying "wow, FtA blew" and start saying things like "this part was pretty good, this part wasn't etc". When the company sees that we aren't going to despise the products they put out, we'll start to see more stuff for us!
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
Someone be honest with me, am I just wasting my time? Or is anyone actually willing and ready to put aside petty differences and work towards getting some new material?
You're wasting your time... wanna know why I'm so against it? 'Cause I tried it... I tried to see things from both sides of the fence and I tried to get people together, and all I got was bit, hard. The battle-lines are drawn, dude, and the blood that has been spilt is both too old and too new for there to ever be a peace between, or even within, the factions.
Whether you realize it or not, you've already picked a side. It's a matter of personality more than anything else. Some people just don't wanna accept change, whether bad or good.
I honestly don't understand these rivalries and sides...I just can't fathom putting so much effort into caring about a fake world. I don't know. I do agree with Monteblanco, Wotc should probably base Greyhawk's viability on LG but still, these boards probably can't help right? I mean, two threads were closed in one day...kind of shows the people aren't to happy with eachother...
There are different groups of fans, and some of the people in them dislike each other a lot. I wouldn't call these rivalries because there is no prize over which to compete (presently).
Regarding efforts to motivate Wizards to produce more GH products, I advocate supporting Erik Mona's efforts by submitting articles to the LGJ and purchasing a subscription to Dungeon magazine. You should also send a letter to the editor via the post office. This letter should explain that your subscription is motivated by the continued publication of the LGJ and that you also enjoy articles that are set in the WoG setting.
I also suggest purchasing specific issues of Dragon magazine and writing an email to [email]scalemail@paizo.com[/email] explaining briefly that you purchased that issue primarily because of its GH content. As indicated in the letter-writing thread, consumers empower themselves by informing producers/distributors/retailers what products you purchase and why you've done so.
As for unity, I think you're doing fine FancyP. It helped me to recognize that there are many many more fans than it is probable to unify. For example, at this forum, I regularly read of someone who claims to have campaigned in GH for decades. Prior to a while ago, I believed that all hardcore GH fans were on the AOL board or subscribed the Greytalk. The fact (as I choose to assert it) is that there is a significant but mostly dormant consumer base for GH.
Our task as fans who desire to see Wizards produce new GH products is to organize a vocal core to lobby Wizards to produce something new. We do have the power to influence the corporation, but it will not be easy.
Keep up the faith.
Given the emphasis for "living worlds" such as Living Greyhawk, it seems that they want to drive membership into these campaigns, effecting a sort of exclusivity. Having taken the Herald level test, and getting a free membership, I looked into their products and found LOTS of adventures -- all specific to their gaming regions.
In one regard, I do like the idea of having a character that develops within a much larger and dynamic environment than what a single DM can provide. On the other hand, with all the certs and stuff necessary to keep one's character official, not to mention the administrative support required of one DM to run a party of 4-6...I hesitate to get THAT involved. I'm looking for fun, not a second job...and my regular job hours likely preclude any real opportunity to pursue it even if I did. Would imagine this applies to a lot of people, one way or the other.
Add further that if one actually purchases a product from RPGA, it appears that they are actually required to RUN it...and report it. I don't know how many D&D items I've purchased that I have not used, except to read...probably most. I'd probably purchase all, or at least a whole helluva lot of their adventures from all regions, if I didn't have to run...and report, the game.
And...add to this that it seems that the games have to be conducted in a fairly timely manner, and that sessions should follow the 200 minute guidelines...and my interest becomes even more skeptical. It makes exceptional sense for most game days at hobby stores, and conventions...but for homeplay...we're probably talking pizza, buffalo wings, probably some beverages of an adult character or excessive amounts of coffee, and a leisurely atmosphere.
Leastwise, there is an abundance...a MASSIVE ABUNDANCE, an ABUNDANCE that defies imagination, of GH content out there that has been compiled by a lot of dedicated GH enthusiasts, but is likely to remain inaccessible to an equal if not greater number of GH enthusiasts.
I'm not aware of RPGA financial strategies, but it certainly seems they are missing out on several streams of revenue.
For us home gamers, Living Greyhawk is not a true option. Not to mention the lack of quatlity control inherant in fan-based material, (TSR did release four novels by R. E.), the need to report makes L.G. impossible for us. If my players are having a good time, I don't care if they only explore 2 rooms in one session.
We are playing a GAME for FUN. We are not trying to make a career of it.
- purchase (thereby supporting) Greyhawk products
- inform publishers why you support Dungeon/Dragon magazine (for its Greyhawk content)
- write to Wotc, pressure company to produce more material for Greyhawk
Would question whether writing WotC or RPGA would be best??? Anyone know any details on the arrangement between the two on GH?
Isolating what the obstacles are for producing GH material (by either party) might be useful. With PDFs as an option, cost of production should not be a significant obstacle.
Originally posted by yazidee
Ha...yeah. I like GH enough to consider LG to satisfy my 'fix'...but still can't get over the feeling that it would be like bringing in the Army Corps of Engineers to do the job of a screwdriver.
LG is very easy to admin as the DM. Just order up the scenario, print it off and report who played after you finish. Thats about it.
The time limit does not apply at home only big cons where there are slots to organise. If you want to play a scenario over several evenings with side treks then order it early and just report it as played and keep using it after that date, the RPGA are not going to send around someone to check on you after all.
Also there is nothing stopping you using the scenarios in a non-LG context, provided you report who plays you could just incorporate them into your existing homebrew campaign. I'm sure the RPGA would think this is naughty but who cares provided you have fun?
I don't want to sidestep the topic of this thread, so will try to keep step.
A letter writing campaign can work. With one of my favorite games, A Century of Warfare, by Norm Kroger via Talonsoft -- produced several years ago....Talonsoft was bought out and the new parent company simply stopped supporting the game. Three or four wargaming clubs organized a letter writing campaign to try to get the new company to support the game. It took a year or so, but they did eventually re-issue the game in jewel case, and let Norm begin efforts to update it with new features.
It can work, and there might be other options worth pursuing as well.
Originally posted by yazidee
Would question whether writing WotC or RPGA would be best??? Anyone know any details on the arrangement between the two on GH?
Why worry about it---just write to WotC/Hasbro, the RPGA, and to Paizo. What's three stamps going to cost you? ;)
I also applaud Coldpenguin's efforts to help pull the fans together! It's an effort well-worth making. Sure, some folks will never agree that X or Y or Z version of Greyhawk is what they want to run, but being able to see value in those versions, as well as in another fan's appreciation for those versions, is a good thing for Greyhawk both in the short-term (brings more fans together, stimulates useful conversation, etc.) and the long-term (shows WotC that we care, may eventually result in more GH produts coming out, etc.).
Originally posted by StevieS
LG is very easy to admin as the DM. Just order up the scenario, print it off and report who played after you finish. Thats about it.
What a load of rot.
I ordered three scenarios, got one which was the wrong one and the other two are yet to get to me, despite contacting both the triads in my area AND the circle.
And filling out a bunch of certs is not my idea of 'easy to admin'.
There is ZERO reason to play LG at home.
I'm running 3no scenarios this weekend, I ordered them on Friday, got access to the scenarios from the RPGA sunday and recieved the updated ARs from my triad today.
Filling in the certs takes the maths of a ten year old so is in no way difficult, taking a minute or two at the outside.
Finally running LG scenarios at home has many reasons such as having fun playing D&D on Oerth or maybe even enjoying some interesting and stimulating plots. If you run them for homeplay you don't even need to fill in the certs, a bonus.
As I assume you will repond, please attempt to curtail your insults as the new moderator is more than happy to lock down threads as you found out not too long ago.
Short of that, I have to agree that LG doesn't seem like a viable option for the casual home gamer.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
How about this for easy? RPGA should make the retired adventures available for download for free on the Living Greyhawk website. Then there's no signing up, there's no reporting - no hassle. If it's just the retired adventures, I don't see how that would compromise the Living Greyhawk campaign, either.
Short of that, I have to agree that LG doesn't seem like a viable option for the casual home gamer.
Thats been proposed a zillion times but they always say they can't, something to do with who owns the scenarios after they retire I believe.
What a load of rot.
not to mention that most of the RPGA living greyhawk adventures I have read have been of supreemly poor quality... like somebody else said while chatting last week, it makes me realy wonder why there is such a cry by some non-RPGA members to get them freely released.
that said I think that the very fact that there are people on these forums and else where talking about greyhawk at all shows WotC that there is an intrest in the setting... that the people are arguing with each other about points of interest in the setting is rather irrelevent.
Stil I agree with Del that we need to show WotC that the setting can be proffitable befre they will consider any new Greyhawk material. and the best way to do that is by supporting the limited amount of greyhawk stuff that is on the market now.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
not to mention that most of the RPGA living greyhawk adventures I have read have been of supreemly poor quality... like somebody else said while chatting last week, it makes me realy wonder why there is such a cry by some non-RPGA members to get them freely released.
Well, since I don't play LG, I've never seen one. I just keep hearing about the volumes of material produced for LG. Obviously, if the adventures are indeed of poor quality, then I'm not missing anything.
Originally posted by cwslyclgh
Stil I agree with Del that we need to show WotC that the setting can be proffitable befre they will consider any new Greyhawk material. and the best way to do that is by supporting the limited amount of greyhawk stuff that is on the market now.
This came up in my Greyhawk Encyclopedia thread (which has now been closed down, thank you very much), and while I'm not interested in reopening that discussion with Delglath, I must reiterate that buying the LGG and Dungeon magazine is not the whole answer. It's a catch-22; there won't be any new products without decent sales, but without new products, there's hardly anything to sell. Advocating that we buy what's out there is good, but it only goes so far. I've got the LGG and I subscribe to Dungeon, but I'm not going to buy either of them twice.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
Well, since I don't play LG, I've never seen one. I just keep hearing about the volumes of material produced for LG. Obviously, if the adventures are indeed of poor quality, then I'm not missing anything.
LG adventures are not of a uniform poor quality. Some are fantastic, some are OK and some are poor, just like any other set of releases (Childs play anyone? ;) )
Some people like LG (like me) and some don't (like cwslyclgh I guess), I'd just say give it a try and make your own mind up.
Although I did buy two copies of the LGG, one for dragging around to games I'm running/playing and one for sunday best :D
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
[I must reiterate that buying the LGG and Dungeon magazine is not the whole answer. It's a catch-22; there won't be any new products without decent sales, but without new products, there's hardly anything to sell. Advocating that we buy what's out there is good, but it only goes so far. I've got the LGG and I subscribe to Dungeon, but I'm not going to buy either of them twice. [/b]
LG adventures are not of a uniform poor quality. Some are fantastic, some are OK and some are poor, just like any other set of releases (Childs play anyone? )
Some people like LG (like me) and some don't (like cwslyclgh I guess), I'd just say give it a try and make your own mind up.
note that I did not say that they all sucked... I just said that most of those that I had seen were of poor quality... I make no claim of seing even a large minority of the LGH adventures... however of the ones I have seen one was good, two were ok, and the rest (five or six) were very poor.
I've also gotten the people I play with interested in the setting as well, so if Wotc is reading this than see that I'm breeding a new generation of players for you, Greyhawk players!
of any Greyhawk campaign insures that the players will receive the best possible exposure to what is an excellent game setting.
I would also agree with previous posts and say that purchasing the products is essential to the setting's future. As example of this, I just bought my second copy of the LGG the other day. I have also begun the habit of buying every issue of Dungeon since Erik Mona is now the editor of that magazine.
Lastly, this will come no as no surprise, but I advocate consumer response through letter-writing. Any letter written to a company has an effect. A voice counts for something, and we shouldn't underestimate that power, especially when our combined voices only magnify our hopes for Greyhawk.
Originally posted by Monteblanco
What about a letter campaign asking Paizo to publish a special edition in the likeness of the old Best of Dragon? A Best of Living Greyhawk Journal would be an excellent medium to test Greyhawk strength in the market and also give us fans something to play with.
Damn fine idea, wish I'd thought of it... oh wait, I did! Well, ok, maybe not the letter writing thing as I think they're a waste of time (oh look at that, lots of petition mail, hello bin...), and maybe not the 'Best of' idea, which is definitely a good take on republishing the LGJ material, but... the CRUX of the idea I thought of a while ago :D
Originally posted by jokamachi
An LGJ compilation would be a wonderful thing to have and I know both Erik and Gary have been pushing for something like this for a while.
*cough*choke*splutter*
Ahem! EXCUUUUSE ME? Gary and Erik????? They've been doing NO SUCH THING! It has been a select group of people, including myself, who have been pushing ERIK to do it. I hate to be a credit hog, but I also hate seeing credit being misplaced.
That's a long way from getting it done, however.
--Erik
What could we do as fans and possible authors to ensure that The Best of Living Greyhawk Journal comes to fruition and hits the stands?
Originally posted by Erik Mona
Lots and lots of people, Delglath included, kept ribbing me about it, and I now believe that more than enough people would buy it to make it worth doing.
Delglath loves it when a plan comes together. :D
P.S. I would buy three copies, actually. One for collection purposes, one for sale when it becomes a collectors item, and the last one for personal use.
Therefore, buying the LGG today is less useful (for the purpose of demonstrating consumer interest/demand) than buying a copy the next GH product in its first month.
A best of LGG would definitely be a welcomed site in my collection. I also don't believe in criticizing other people because they don't wish to compose a letter to support an effort. Instead I would encourage those who wish too continue their letter writing campaign and wish them the best of luck. I would also like to add that as long as you consider yourself a fan of a setting or product. You should support it in some way. If you fail to support it in any way! Then you forfeit your right to complain about the state of events you find that setting or product in.
With that said keep the faith and continue your GH letter writing crusade. Also for those of us who contribute their writings, drawings, and maps; I say keep them coming. Lastly, to the hard efforts of those individuals who relighted the torch of GH after TSR/WoTC pulled the plug on the setting; by finding ways to keep GH fresh in the minds of it's fans and those who are new to the setting. I commend you and am behind the ressurection of the GH campaign. Also to the Living Greyhawk regions, triads, and their like. While I am not a LG player I appreciate the hard worn efforts that it takes to build upon a long standing setting and make it palatable for many fans.
I ask you is this friendly or better yet United enough?
The fractious fan bases of the various worlds are disheartening. I can't stand to go to a greyhawk or dragonlance message forum anymore.
This came up in a discussion about Eberron on the Future Releases board. I know there's more to it than just this, but maybe this is part of the reason we're seeing Eberron and not new Greyhawk releases.
Originally posted by StevieS
Filling in the certs takes the maths of a ten year old so is in no way difficult, taking a minute or two at the outside.
so is that the target audience. you need to be a ten year old to DM and play it?
i can say i honestly don't care for the LG either.
but for me anything post 1985 Greyhawk is not worth the paper it was printed on.
Originally posted by diaglo
so is that the target audience. you need to be a ten year old to DM and play it?
i can say i honestly don't care for the LG either.
but for me anything post 1985 Greyhawk is not worth the paper it was printed on.
No I'm saying that if you cannot cope with the LG maths you are either a) below the age of ten or b) a retard. Please do better on the anti-LG jibes, D+ at best diaglo ;)
pre-1985 huh? Fair enough, each to their own I guess. I think you are being highly short sighted by dogmatically refusing to see newer GHs good points but hey, knock yourself out.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
I just saw something in another forum that I wanted to post here because I think it goes to what Coldpenguin is trying to accomplish.
This came up in a discussion about Eberron on the Future Releases board. I know there's more to it than just this, but maybe this is part of the reason we're seeing Eberron and not new Greyhawk releases.
As is often the case, we are our own greatest obstacle.
I disagree with the idea that fans online are responsible for Wizards corporate decisions. While that argument has been made by several people, reading it again tonight made me realize that it's incorrect.
Our discussions here or in other online fora don't affect corporate decisionmakers -- unless those people join a particular forum and engage the setting's fans. That hasn't been the case for Greyhawk for a number of years -- since Roger Moore was regularly accessible and before that Lisa Stevens (on AOL). Today, it's been almost three years since Sean Reynolds was a member of Greytalk, but Sean was a product designer, which is not quite the same thing as a corporate decision-maker.
The "suits" determine what direction to go. Since Wizards bought TSR, reportedly the company does attempt to follow its market research. However, our discussions, flamewars, etc. are not likely to constitute "market research."
With that said, fans can impact the company decision makers in a limited way by sending consumer demands through regular channels.
Originally posted by Tizoc
With that said, fans can impact the company decision makers in a limited way by sending consumer demands through regular channels.
Just out of curiosity, what would you define as "regular channels?"
#1. SALES
#2. See # 1
#3. See #1 again
#4. Market Surveys initiated by the SUITS
#5. Customer Comment Cards that come with products
#6. Letters from Consumers.
I've spent YEARS with suits from several companies (admitedly, not WOTC or HASBRO). The odds are your letter WON'T make it to a decision maker. The best you can hope for is the Director of Customer Service saying "I've gotten a lot of requests for Greyhawk stuff recently" in a development meeting. They WILL do independent Market Surveys before restarting development. They WILL NOT check the web-boards.
I would go so far as to argue if you buy an Eborron or FR's product, you are hurting the chances of ever seeing GH in print again. What they care about most is the bottom line. If you truly want to see new Greyhawk, buy Dungeon Magazine's featuring Greyhawk material, the TOEE computer Game and NOTHING ELSE. (just steal the rest--a joke, I'm not advocating criminal activity, don't want to get banned).
Maybe if Kenzerco's redo of Greyhawk modules did record breaking business, that would turn some heads. The same is true of Gary's "Castle Zygag" and Ron's "Barbarous Coast."
As long as Erik is plugging away, putting a trickle fo GH stuff out, there's a chance. But SALES will determine what gets produced, not petitions and letters. If sales of issues containing GH stuff are substantially down, Erik will quit putting it in, or he will not be the editor very long.
GH gamers should understand corporate suits, they are like the CoG's thief's guild without the fun & games, "WHERE'S MY MONEY?!?!?!?"
Originally posted by Coldpenguin625
...the second it comes out all the Gygax lovers will trounce it
You mean the Gygax cult, who should be in psychotherapy for about 10 years. And I'm being serious. I thought Greyhawk is a LIVING World, and the Gygax cult want's to kill it.
Secondly, while there are countries and cities in Greyhawk that I like very much, there are several I do not. No world is perfect.
And before you trash me, I've been playing AD&D since 1979, and grew up with Greyhawk. So unless you have more experience then me, keep your trap shut.
Here's how we do it, we create The Greyhawk Guild, everyone who loves Greyhawk (or at least parts of it) can join. Then when we get a huge membership, we start writing attacks on WOTC if they don't publish adventures. If we have the largest numbers we win.
We can also have our own magazine, and publish unofficial city development ideas for use with Greyhawk, and see if WOTC will sanction them. Also as far as marketing goes, our magazine will be an exclusive advertising venue for WOTC. When they advertise there, they know they will be tapping into a fan base - so every buck spent there is guaranteed a good return. ;)
Regarding letters, however, my understanding is that finding the President's address is useful. From this standpoint, send to the top, forget about the bottom. Following that vision, if you use the model letter on page 1 of this thread, do NOT use "To whom it may concern" or "Dear Gentleperson." Find the right person and name them.
Actually, if you really care about this project, it'd be great if you researched to whom we should send letters and posted their name and business address here. Volunteers? You'll be an
!But seriously, if you're down for this, then let's do it right. Every month we should be sending letters to comment on Dragon and Dungeon and then one to the head suit at Wizards. Additionally, we should all seriously consider buying the Scourge DVD and the products being put out by Kenzer or those already published that are connected to Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz. These purchases should be accompanied by letters.
It can be done, but it will take time/effort (labor!).
Over and ...
Seriously though, maybe if we visit him in person we'll (if the police aren't called) have a better chance of him even knowing what we want? Because I can't see those letters getting through.
Originally posted by Stalkerpenguin625
Seriously though, maybe if we visit him in person we'll (if the police aren't called) have a better chance of him even knowing what we want? Because I can't see those letters getting through.
Ack! I'd freak if someone did that... gamers are SCARY!
Actually, since we're kind of on our own without joining Living Greyhawk, I got an idea. Canonfire puts out a ton of articles all the time, maybe if we made some kind of e-zine there showcasing all the new articles and different ways to use them we'd increase the amount of fan-made materials?
Maybe a bi-weekly or monthly type thing? Maybe call it something like The Greyhawk Journal? (don't laugh at the name, its a newspaper based in Greyhawk in my campaign, I use to give the players info now and then about the world).
Maybe send a few of these e-zine issues to some Wotc people once the zine gets under way? If they see that there's a super active (which there already is but this is taking it a step further) fan community it might have a small impact...and besides...I'd like to see it anyways.