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spontaneous cleric spells

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
marius4
Dec 14, 2003 23:26:16 Currently, most PC clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells into *cure* spells. This strengthens one of the cleric class's signature abilities, healing, but also arguably pigeonholes the class into the healer role.

What if clerics could spontaneously convert their prepared spells into their domain spells instead of just the *cure* spells? (Ex. Mishakal's clerics w/Healing could heal spontaneously, Sirrion's w/Fire could *produce flame* spontaneously.)

Would this disrupt game balance or simply add variety? Also, would it work with DL (e.g., world theme, mystics, etc.)? Any thoughts appreciated. =)
#2
zombiegleemax
Dec 14, 2003 23:57:05 I don't think it would hurt balance at all to be honest. It would add a good amount of diversity to clerics and make the choice of domains even more important.

But I think you are forgetting what i think is the REAL reason they gave Clerics the ability to cast Cure spells spontaneously. In earlier editions alot of people wouldn't play clerics because they were always using up there spells slots on memorizing cure spells. With the spontaneously casting ability, they can memorize funner spells now, and still have healing abilities if they need them. If you switched there ability you would make clerics have to go through that agonizing decision of wether to memorize some cool attack spell or something or ANOTHER cure moderate because they have this itchy feeling someone will die if they don't
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 15, 2003 8:16:34 Clerics are tricky.

I'm actually doing what you're suggesting - I give clerics channeled spells based on their domain, and thus their deity. As a result, they wind up getting an additional spell to memorize per level (since they know longer are forced to devote one to their domain). It seemed silly to make a cleric memorize a domain spell, but let them channel them as well.

Here's another thing I'm considering - I remember in older versions of D&D, and maybe in 3.0/3.5 as well (though I don't remember if I checked), it was often suggested that clerics exchange the ability to turn undead with other abilities. I haven't figured out any other innate abilities to convert this to (except perhaps turning of other creatures), but it struck me as an interesting idea to have it suit a cleric's deity.

That's a little confusing. Consider this - In the DLCS, many of the deities are stated as directly opposing each other. To this end, I thought it'd be pretty cool to have clerics of opposing deities have abilities that oppose each other. Traditional Turning of Undead could be Majere's granted ability, for instance, since Majere is stated as opposing Chemosh - Chemosh, meanwhile, would maintain Rebuking/Commanding of Undead.

Something similar would be nice for the other divine rivalries, such as (from the top of my head):
Mishakal - Morgion
Kiri-Jolith - Sargonnas
Habbakuk - Chislev - Zeboim
Shinare - Hiddukel

This, ofcourse, becomes a little difficult since some deities (notably many Neutral ones) don't fit cleanly into the equation:
Reorx
Zivilyn
Gilean
Sirrion
Branchala

I don't know. It's an idea. Anyone feel like building on it more or offering more input?
#4
cam_banks
Dec 15, 2003 9:13:28 It may be an interesting direction to take the cleric, but the class is already one of the most powerful and well-rounded classes in the Player's Handbook. It has its own checks and balances, but in a setting where mystics are also in play (and have been said to be a little weaker than clerics) nabbing the mystics primary function of spontaneously casting a domain spell and giving it to the cleric would be something of a blow to the mystic.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
marius4
Dec 15, 2003 12:03:56 Hmm...I guess since we don't have any official ones for DL clerics just yet, I'm also forgetting about those handy-dandy--Prestige Classes! What is the (new) projected time for the Holy Order of the Stars sourcebook?
#6
cam_banks
Dec 15, 2003 12:36:46
Originally posted by marius4
Hmm...I guess since we don't have any official ones for DL clerics just yet, I'm also forgetting about those handy-dandy--Prestige Classes! What is the (new) projected time for the Holy Order of the Stars sourcebook?

There's no confirmed or projected date at this stage, but I would imagine the second half of 2004.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
darthsylver
Dec 15, 2003 16:20:59 Hey Marius check this out Messenger of The Heavens .

This is a class I made up a liitle while ago. It needs a little tweaking but it capitalizes on the idea of "specialty" priests.

Namely I need to change the domains to correspond with the DLCS.

If you wanted to use this class it would be a simple matter to use the Domains as they are listed for the gods in DLCS. Oh, I also gave the gods of magic domains as well.
#8
iltharanos
Dec 15, 2003 23:07:42
Originally posted by marius4
Currently, most PC clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells into *cure* spells. This strengthens one of the cleric class's signature abilities, healing, but also arguably pigeonholes the class into the healer role.

What if clerics could spontaneously convert their prepared spells into their domain spells instead of just the *cure* spells? (Ex. Mishakal's clerics w/Healing could heal spontaneously, Sirrion's w/Fire could *produce flame* spontaneously.)

Would this disrupt game balance or simply add variety? Also, would it work with DL (e.g., world theme, mystics, etc.)? Any thoughts appreciated. =)

Clerics can already do that via the selection of one feat.

Spontaneous Domain Access [Epic]
Prereqs: Wis 25, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th level divine spells.
Benefits: As you described.

It's on page 67 of the Epic Level Handbook . ;)
#9
darthsylver
Dec 16, 2003 5:56:29 That is a nice option Iltharanos but you would have to be a 27th level cleric in order to get it. I think that Marius was hoping for something a bit more common than that epic cleric. So that it is associated with all clerics of the gods rather than just one or two.
#10
iltharanos
Dec 16, 2003 21:46:53
Originally posted by darthsylver
That is a nice option Iltharanos but you would have to be a 27th level cleric in order to get it. I think that Marius was hoping for something a bit more common than that epic cleric. So that it is associated with all clerics of the gods rather than just one or two.

True, true. But the epic feat only emphasizes the Epic Level Handbook's design team's apparent view that spontaneous domain spell conversion is unbalancing for non-epic clerics.
#11
darthsylver
Dec 16, 2003 22:02:15 That may be true. But here is also the thing to remember, the epic feat allows you to do this in addition to the cure spells (even though the healing domain may not be a seleceted domain). What if a cleric wanted to trade the spontaneous cure spell ability for a domain instead. I mean good clerics heal, evil clerics "inflict" and neutral clerics choose at character creation, so why not exchange this for a spontaneous domain casting.
#12
iltharanos
Dec 16, 2003 22:41:25 Trading out the spontaneous "cure/inflict" ability in exchange for a spontaneous "any one domain" ability sounds like a fair deal to me. Now if a Cleric wanted to have both abilities before epic level (without the expenditure of a feat, set of feats, or something similar), I'd tend to disfavor that approach, as Clerics are already one of the most powerful core classes out there.
#13
darthsylver
Dec 16, 2003 23:45:48 I have updated my Messenger of the Heavens class on the Nexus and resumitted it to Shugi. If he will update it give him some time and then check it out. I would like to see your feedback on it if you could.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 marius4 Dec 14, 2003 23:26:16	Currently, most PC clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells into cure spells. This strengthens one of the cleric class's signature abilities, healing, but also arguably pigeonholes the class into the healer role. What if clerics could spontaneously convert their prepared spells into their domain spells instead of just the cure spells? (Ex. Mishakal's clerics w/Healing could heal spontaneously, Sirrion's w/Fire could produce flame spontaneously.) Would this disrupt game balance or simply add variety? Also, would it work with DL (e.g., world theme, mystics, etc.)? Any thoughts appreciated. =)
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 14, 2003 23:57:05	I don't think it would hurt balance at all to be honest. It would add a good amount of diversity to clerics and make the choice of domains even more important. But I think you are forgetting what i think is the REAL reason they gave Clerics the ability to cast Cure spells spontaneously. In earlier editions alot of people wouldn't play clerics because they were always using up there spells slots on memorizing cure spells. With the spontaneously casting ability, they can memorize funner spells now, and still have healing abilities if they need them. If you switched there ability you would make clerics have to go through that agonizing decision of wether to memorize some cool attack spell or something or ANOTHER cure moderate because they have this itchy feeling someone will die if they don't
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 15, 2003 8:16:34	Clerics are tricky. I'm actually doing what you're suggesting - I give clerics channeled spells based on their domain, and thus their deity. As a result, they wind up getting an additional spell to memorize per level (since they know longer are forced to devote one to their domain). It seemed silly to make a cleric memorize a domain spell, but let them channel them as well. Here's another thing I'm considering - I remember in older versions of D&D, and maybe in 3.0/3.5 as well (though I don't remember if I checked), it was often suggested that clerics exchange the ability to turn undead with other abilities. I haven't figured out any other innate abilities to convert this to (except perhaps turning of other creatures), but it struck me as an interesting idea to have it suit a cleric's deity. That's a little confusing. Consider this - In the DLCS, many of the deities are stated as directly opposing each other. To this end, I thought it'd be pretty cool to have clerics of opposing deities have abilities that oppose each other. Traditional Turning of Undead could be Majere's granted ability, for instance, since Majere is stated as opposing Chemosh - Chemosh, meanwhile, would maintain Rebuking/Commanding of Undead. Something similar would be nice for the other divine rivalries, such as (from the top of my head): Mishakal - Morgion Kiri-Jolith - Sargonnas Habbakuk - Chislev - Zeboim Shinare - Hiddukel This, ofcourse, becomes a little difficult since some deities (notably many Neutral ones) don't fit cleanly into the equation: Reorx Zivilyn Gilean Sirrion Branchala I don't know. It's an idea. Anyone feel like building on it more or offering more input?
#4 cam_banks Dec 15, 2003 9:13:28	It may be an interesting direction to take the cleric, but the class is already one of the most powerful and well-rounded classes in the Player's Handbook. It has its own checks and balances, but in a setting where mystics are also in play (and have been said to be a little weaker than clerics) nabbing the mystics primary function of spontaneously casting a domain spell and giving it to the cleric would be something of a blow to the mystic. Cheers, Cam
#5 marius4 Dec 15, 2003 12:03:56	Hmm...I guess since we don't have any official ones for DL clerics just yet, I'm also forgetting about those handy-dandy--Prestige Classes! What is the (new) projected time for the Holy Order of the Stars sourcebook?
#6 cam_banks Dec 15, 2003 12:36:46	Originally posted by marius4 Hmm...I guess since we don't have any official ones for DL clerics just yet, I'm also forgetting about those handy-dandy--Prestige Classes! What is the (new) projected time for the Holy Order of the Stars sourcebook? There's no confirmed or projected date at this stage, but I would imagine the second half of 2004. Cheers, Cam
#7 darthsylver Dec 15, 2003 16:20:59	Hey Marius check this out Messenger of The Heavens . This is a class I made up a liitle while ago. It needs a little tweaking but it capitalizes on the idea of "specialty" priests. Namely I need to change the domains to correspond with the DLCS. If you wanted to use this class it would be a simple matter to use the Domains as they are listed for the gods in DLCS. Oh, I also gave the gods of magic domains as well.
#8 iltharanos Dec 15, 2003 23:07:42	Originally posted by marius4 Currently, most PC clerics can spontaneously convert their prepared spells into cure spells. This strengthens one of the cleric class's signature abilities, healing, but also arguably pigeonholes the class into the healer role. What if clerics could spontaneously convert their prepared spells into their domain spells instead of just the cure spells? (Ex. Mishakal's clerics w/Healing could heal spontaneously, Sirrion's w/Fire could produce flame spontaneously.) Would this disrupt game balance or simply add variety? Also, would it work with DL (e.g., world theme, mystics, etc.)? Any thoughts appreciated. =) Clerics can already do that via the selection of one feat. Spontaneous Domain Access [Epic] Prereqs: Wis 25, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th level divine spells. Benefits: As you described. It's on page 67 of the Epic Level Handbook . ;)
#9 darthsylver Dec 16, 2003 5:56:29	That is a nice option Iltharanos but you would have to be a 27th level cleric in order to get it. I think that Marius was hoping for something a bit more common than that epic cleric. So that it is associated with all clerics of the gods rather than just one or two.
#10 iltharanos Dec 16, 2003 21:46:53	Originally posted by darthsylver That is a nice option Iltharanos but you would have to be a 27th level cleric in order to get it. I think that Marius was hoping for something a bit more common than that epic cleric. So that it is associated with all clerics of the gods rather than just one or two. True, true. But the epic feat only emphasizes the Epic Level Handbook's design team's apparent view that spontaneous domain spell conversion is unbalancing for non-epic clerics.
#11 darthsylver Dec 16, 2003 22:02:15	That may be true. But here is also the thing to remember, the epic feat allows you to do this in addition to the cure spells (even though the healing domain may not be a seleceted domain). What if a cleric wanted to trade the spontaneous cure spell ability for a domain instead. I mean good clerics heal, evil clerics "inflict" and neutral clerics choose at character creation, so why not exchange this for a spontaneous domain casting.
#12 iltharanos Dec 16, 2003 22:41:25	Trading out the spontaneous "cure/inflict" ability in exchange for a spontaneous "any one domain" ability sounds like a fair deal to me. Now if a Cleric wanted to have both abilities before epic level (without the expenditure of a feat, set of feats, or something similar), I'd tend to disfavor that approach, as Clerics are already one of the most powerful core classes out there.
#13 darthsylver Dec 16, 2003 23:45:48	I have updated my Messenger of the Heavens class on the Nexus and resumitted it to Shugi. If he will update it give him some time and then check it out. I would like to see your feedback on it if you could.