The First Ones
An Essay on the Birth of the Multiverse
: the much-mentioned, but rarely-explored history of the multiverse intrigues many.
I propose a concentrated effort to list the known and conjectured history of the planes, relative timelines (since we obviously can't get definate ones), etc. It is important that we keep our own conjecture noticably seperate from the information that's actually in the books. Rumors, Historical Structures, etc, all need to have their own categories, and things which may have possible links (Like the rumors of the Lady being a reformed tanar'ri lord, and how Plague-Morters claim she was a leader there once, etc).
2e Planescape material is obviously the main thing, but there's no harm in adding info from other material, so long as, once again, it's noted as what it is, so we can avoid too much inconsistancy.
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While it is, in and of itself, an obviously interesting thing, it also brings forth the possibilities of -playing- during a historical time in Planescape. Being involved in such interesting times as the raising of the Howler's Crag, the time before the coming of massive human influence on te planes, the time when Yugoloths were not yet purged by the Heart of Darkness, the time when slaad came in myriad forms, or when the first portal to Sigil was discovered... why limit oneself to a single time in an infinity of infinities?
I have been thinking about this theme for a long time now (as my 'First Ones' thread indicates), always coming up against what is already established PS fact, and history...and then seeking to retroactively derive places and peoples before the current official (and unofficial) PS timline.
I have had some success - my own interpretation on the Ancient Baatorians is accepted as fact among the local gaming groups living in my area (
) - and some failures...my ideas on primordial Slaadi have had limited progress, mainly because of weak foundations and my own poor interpretation of established Limbo facts.I'd like to contribute to such an undertaking, but I wish to see and read what others have to offer up first.
;)
Originally posted by Mephit James
I'm definitely up for contributing some material. I have a couple (crack-brained) theories on the history of the multiverse. Would this be pitches for PS3e cannon? Planewalker.com, the established "officials," don't want to tie down things like that usually. However, a fan history would be great. Also, what about the Elemental Planes you Sigil-centric mortals?
Mortals? Sigil-centric? You'd better watch your step, mephit. Next thing you know, the blade of an abiorach could be slicing your throat open.
Back on topic, though, I do like this idea. It'd be especially interesting to get the creation of the Multiverse from several different views. We've already seen Primus's views, as flawed as they are. But it'd be interesting to see, for example, a tanar'ri's idea of how the multiverse was created.
And now I remember you, Incenjucar. We met back at the raising of Howler's Crag, remember?
I'm in the middle of making a list of confirmed rumors from my small collection of PS information. It shall be finished shortly.
The Great List of the Ancient Planes
-The Moving Acheronian Fortresses of the ancient Hassitor, an extinct race. (Planes of Law)
-"Shapes in the Ice", frozen 'things' in the depths of the Canian Glaciers. (Planes of Law)
-Caverns and underground cities of the Ancient Baatorians on Malbolge (Planes of Law)
-Rumors of an Ancient Baatorian in the catacombs of Maladomini (Planes of Law)
-Asmodeus the "Serpent" (Guide to Hell)
-The Illuminated Heaven's mysterious ruler (Planes of Law)
-Hand carved passages of Pandemonium (Planes of Chaos)
-Secret ancient "things" in Agathion (Planes of Chaos)
-The true nature of Harmonica (Planes of Chaos)
-Titan Cities of Pelion (Planes of Chaos)
-The Sleeping Ones on the Paraelemental Plane of Ice (The Inner Planes)
-The Monolith on Magma (The Inner Planes)
-The Tower of Storms on Lightning (The Inner Planes)
-The forge and the mysterious tools in the Tower of Lead on Mineral (The Inner Planes)
-The Heart of Light and its mysterious creators on Radiance (The Inner Planes)
-The Movement of the Plane of Steam (The Inner Planes)
-The Tower of Ice on Steam(The Inner Planes)
-Cavitus, its original creators, and the place where Vecna was too afraid to go on Ash (The nner Planes)
-The Dead and lost gods of the Astral (Guide to the Astral)
-Winds of Future and Past (Guide to the Astral)
-The Ancient Illithid Empire (Various sources)
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A few months back I asked about the history of the planes. One of the most thought provoking ideas I received was "why bother?"
Hear me out, I think there's something there. It's not important to map the planes' REAL history, but the perceived history...
Look at it this way. Planescape is all about things which can't be conceptualized. The Spire in infinately tall, but Sigil is on the top. A plane is infinately large, but next to another plane. All sorts of nonsensical contradictions are at play.
And if something is infinately large, why bother making a map?
Okay, now add in the idea that it's all about belief. Belief shapes things in Planescape. A gate town gets too much like a plane - whoops, it's now part of the plane...
Maybe belief shapes the past as well?
Maybe the planes are really only a few tens of thousands of years old - but enough folks believe that their past goes back an infinately long way, so the history is in effect backdated so that they are, in fact, infinately old...?
I don't know where to go with this, but I think it could be interesting...
Well, cutter. You want to know about the menti, eh? A little more bub, and I’ll lann ya the dark of it, alright. That’s about right. So, the menti. Now, I’ll have your vow you won’t bark a single word of where you heard this to anyone. Good. Now, the story of the menti stretches far back into the past. I doubt anyone lives now who was there at the beginning. Not even the Lady. Aye, it was that long ago.
So long ago, truly, that the multiverse was not as it is today. The Great Ring was a single realm devoid of life. The first living creatures were just coming into being, and so there was little to subsist on in the Outer Planes. How do I know any of this? Now that’s tricky- where would the last place you’d think to look? The Inner Planes. A great deal of exhaustive psionic research with elementals and fundamentals yielded a wealth of primordial knowledge, passed through the elemental beings as their forms were recycled by the Elemental Planes, which are as ancient as existence itself.
The first entities to rise from the misty expanses of the Outer Plane were the menti. For ages, they were the only entities, in fact. They are beings of pure thought. Now, that may be a little misleading. Any clueless planologist can tell you that the exemplar (that being the fiends, celestials, slaadi, modrons, and rilmani, berk) are made of living thought. But the menti were creations of pure thought. It was simply raw mental energy that had produced life. They were not as diverse as the exemplar are today. Their shapes were all similar- from the images I received from my test subjects a mentus was a long, thin, grey figure sometimes with limbs and sometimes without. The first were barely substantial, but over time more thought and spiritual energy flowed from the flourishing Prime Material, providing for stronger generations of the creatures. The menti accordingly flourished. Their numbers swelled and they lived on in a drifting vastness for millennia.
Eventually, though, a change began to come over them. The mortal races which we see today arose, bringing with them sentient thought and the first conscious choices and moralities. The energies which flowed into the Outer multiverse began to be tainted with belief. It was impure. The concepts of good and evil, law and chaos, and even of balance affected the menti. They began to be warped by the shaping of their mental substance. There was more mental power surging into the mental plane than ever before, but it was composed of thoughts which had a purpose. These thoughts were those of the sentient beings, and it was infecting the menti.
Even the landscape around them began to be colored by different alignments. As their realm began to split apart around them, they each clung to that portion which was most compatible with their essential self. Over time, these domains became the seventeen Outer Planes.
It is supposed that nothing was left of the former home of the menti, but I disagree. You see, it did not really disappear at all. It is still right where it always was: The Astral Plane. That is the origin of planar life.
As you have probably guessed by now, the menti eventually became the exemplar of the modern Outer Planes. Those who inherited the ideals of compassion and peace became the celestials, while those who took in the depraved thoughts of the cruel and selfish became the first fiends. The menti who absorbed the more structured and ordered rules of their mortal progenitors became the first modrons, while the wild thought patterns of chaotic mortals sired the first slaadi. The rilmani are, as always, a mystery. Could they be the evolution of the original menti. Surprisingly, that seems to be the least likely explanation. In all probability, they are those menti which were infused with thoughts of absolute, active neutrality, which would explain their fervent devotion to diligent neutral ideal.
The most interesting part of all of this, and really the deepest dark in the whole story, is that, since the exemplar are all inherently the same creature, they are actually equivalents created through different molds. This holds true to the point that, if a planeborne alters his belief, he can alter his form. This is a very slow process, and sometimes does not occur when the being in question still maintains some kind of tie to his old personality. However, when an exemplar undergoes a complete and thorough alteration of his philosophy, he can actually become something else.
At first, this may simply be a superficial change. A particularly sadistic red slaad, for example, could begin to develop a more feral appearance. Over a long period of time, though (and remember, exemplar are immortal, so that’s a long period of time) he will go through a more complete metamorphosis. Continuing the previous hypothetical, the slaadi’s limbs may extend themselves and his face would morph until it resembled a vicious skull. Even tually, he would become a maurezhi tanar’ri. These changes can take effect on any exemplar.
Interestingly, I have discovered another tasty little bit of dark, though I haven’t ever found evidence to support it. I have been told, never mind by whom, that when an exemplar goes through a metamorphosis as described above, he briefly exists as a mentus directly between his two forms. If true, this could definitively prove the mentus theory.
It's not done, but that's the idea.
Originally posted by Cessna182
Hear me out, I think there's something there. It's not important to map the planes' REAL history, but the perceived history...
You can also bring in the Orwellian concept of "Whoever controls the present, controls the past, and whoever controls the past, controls the future." That may not be exactly how it goes, but it has been far too long since I read 1984.
Who controls the present, controls the past."
-The Lady of Pain is whispered to have once been an Arch-Lectress of Plague-Mort, and the only one to have survived not pulling the town in to the Abyss. (Sigil and Beyond)
(Possibly links to)
-The Lady of Pain may be a fallen tanar'ri lord (Sigil and Beyond)
Facts:
-There used to be -many-, factions in Sigil, then these were reduced. Later, those factions were also banned. Therefor, faction activity is causing the lady some serious problems.
-One of the Wards was once called the "Ward of Masks" (Lady's Ward...?)
-Aoskar once had a temple and following in Sigil, prior to the priesthood of Fell, and Aoskar's destruction.
-A concentrated effort on the part of baatezu and tanar'ri reduced the celestial population to 3,000 in a week.
Dark:
-Razorvine is a spying agent for one of the lower planes (I can't remember where the bloody this info was to get it right...)
-Tanar'ri and Baatezu were created when the Heart of Darkness purged Law and Chaos from the Yugoloth's, themselves creations of the baernloths.
-The slaadi are locked in to a small variety of forms by their mating place.
-Under Malatanni, an ancient baatorian still sleeps. It is capable of absorbing light, the ability to reflect light (Providing invisibility), and life energy, depending on how close to being awake it is. It takes a wish spell to harm it. (Hellbound, Wargames Adventure)
Originally posted by Incenjucar
-One of the Wards was once called the "Ward of Masks" (Lady's Ward...?)
The Ward of Masks is the archaic name for the Clerks Ward.
Additionally, the Lower Ward was once known as the Prime Ward. That name dates back roughly a thousand years ago or so. The Ward of Masks however easily goes back 10k years or more, I'd need to look up the exact numbers though to put it down firmly.
There's a number of locations in Sigil that have odd histories behind them, and a number of locations that exist in past tales of Sigil that are no longer extant.
For example, The Palace of the Jester is referenced in some of the oldest known writings relating to Sigil, its simply that old. As well, there was once a structure known as the City Provisioners, headquarters of the Communals faction. Their ruling council, and perhaps the building itself were mazed by The Lady sometime around or before the Great Upheaval.
There was also a structure known as The Bank of Keys, its location and origin lost in time as well.
Always good to get as close to hard numbers as possible. So, Sigil's at least 10,000 years old. Probably at least twice that (And in that, I simply mean -accessable-. Who knows how long it was prior to the grand opening).
And I believe it was prior, as well. They were, after all, specifically noted as being especially troubling to the Lady's power.
Originally posted by Sildatorak
You can also bring in the Orwellian concept of "Whoever controls the present, controls the past, and whoever controls the past, controls the future." That may not be exactly how it goes, but it has been far too long since I read 1984.
Yes! Great idea.
Why can I see the 'loths re-writing history to suit their own ends...?
Originally posted by Incenjucar
It was almost the entirity of the Communal -faction-, if I recall. Which means there may yet be a Communal 'colony' floating in the astral somewhere, likely having forgotten any hopes of escaping... who knows what strange magics and lore they have... assuming they didn't just all kill each other...
Always good to get as close to hard numbers as possible. So, Sigil's at least 10,000 years old. Probably at least twice that (And in that, I simply mean -accessable-. Who knows how long it was prior to the grand opening).
Oh I'm sure they're still out there in the Deep Ethereal in their own particular Maze. Their own little planar gulag for the original planar communists. ;)
And the 10k date is either 10k before the present, or 10k before Shekelor, who was himself something like 4k before the present. And that date itself, 10k only refers to the actions of The Wizard who was Darkwood when he challanged The Lady and was bottled within the Labyrinth Stone. Sigil was already bustling at that time, and the Palace of the Jester was referenced within a text that Darkwood of the present had found. The full excerpt of the text is on the opening pages of Faction War. It's spooky and evocative to say the least, and it contains archaic planar cant :D
Originally posted by Cessna182
Okay, WEIRD idea time.
Hear me out, I think there's something there. It's not important to map the planes' REAL history, but the perceived history...
Maybe belief shapes the past as well?
Maybe the planes are really only a few tens of thousands of years old - but enough folks believe that their past goes back an infinately long way, so the history is in effect backdated so that they are, in fact, infinately old...?
That sounds like something the signers cooked up.
I doubt this effect could take hold in a place like, say, Mechanus, where the point of keeping a recorded history is in it being accurate. I'd bet history there is set in stone.
But if you consider Limbo, where objects must be maintained by will and forgotten items can simply disappear, this just might happen there. Now just imagine the temporal equivalent of an anarch. There could even be a few slaadi that can use this power to a limited extent already.
Anyways, the Ancients go their own way and start moving things around simultaneously. So what happens with all these conflicting agenda? Both. The evils half-imagine up an evil string of historical events that happen simultaneously with the goods' the lawfuls' and the chaotics'. Since the thought-stuff of the Planes is a watery form of the defined thought stuff today, everything can happen universally at the same time (quantum theory anyone?) so there can be multiple timelines, and also multiple reasons for the same events.
For instance who's to say that the Lady isn't a deposed Plaugue Mort Lectress and a transcended goddess. If two Ancients imagined the same end, then both causes can occur and coalesce at the end.
I'm going to stop before I get carried away, and while there's still a slim hope that bloods will read this. (Wow, after the Ordial thread, that's two controversial theories in one evening. This prince of the elements is on a sodding roll!)
After all, nobody misses mephits...
A plane is infinately large, but next to another plane. All sorts of nonsensical contradictions are at play.
Actually bounded infinities isn't all that nonsensical. It's a common algebraic problem. List all the # between 0 and 1. The answer is infinite because you can always make a smaller #. So numerically we live in an infinity of infinities.
In 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' there was a blurp about the summoning circle for baatezu. It said that '...a good argument...' was the only thing curtailing the baatezu's power. My idea was that a better argument was what gave them their power in the first place. I see the baatezu as what would happen if the Guvner's were all immortal and evil. So my historical idea goes something like this: After the 'loths used the Heart of Darkness those larvae who had Law instilled into them began their own twisted research into the laws of the Multiverse to gain power and voila the baatezu. It would also jive and expand the idea, also in Faces of Evil, that the baatezu rose from the mathematics of evil.
Maybe we should try to define the ages of Planescape history, and see how many we can put together.
- Post-Faction Age
- Few Faction Age
- Many Faction Age
- Before the Heart of Darkness
- Before the Yugoloths
Originally posted by Incenjucar
Maybe we should try to define the ages of Planescape history, and see how many we can put together.
- Post-Faction Age
- Few Faction Age
- Many Faction Age
- Before the Heart of Darkness
- Before the Yugoloths
What do you mean "...and see how many we can put together." Put how many what together? I like this idea a lot, an ancient planes project sounds really cool.
The standard unit for historical time in Planescape is the Eon. An Eon is defined as a large but indeterminite unit of time. It fits quite well into the abstract multiverse I think.
Current Eon:
Post Faction Age: actually a mis-nomer as the factions do exist, but have been kicked out of Sigil. They have lost much of their strangle hold on the multiverse. Generally considered "the present", though many campaigns take place before (see below)
Few Faction Age: Also very often considered "the present" all published planescape modules take place during this time, with Faction War bridging this Age to the next one.
Many Faction Age: The time prior to the Lady's Edict, which limited the number of "official" factions in Sigil. Starts at about 600 years ago and goes back for an unknown amount of time.
I clumped these all into the same eon, because 600 years really isn't that long for a bunch of immortals.
I'm going to try at some point to extend this but unforutnately what with the holidays, my time is limited
Originally posted by sxoa
The standard unit for historical time in Planescape is the Eon. An Eon is defined as a large but indeterminite unit of time. It fits quite well into the abstract multiverse I think.
Agreed. Obviously hard dates are a premium in this project, but in general abstract relative dating is probably going to dominate. Still, a vague idea of which events are contemporaneous would be a huge help to an Ancient Planes campaign.
when he woke, he wandered the world that he had formed, and he daydreamed, and his thoughts took silvery form and flew.
(this explanes astral ethereal, and outer. and its funny.)
The only way I can see this working is coming up with a generalized time table, like the Eon system, and then working in each planes history of events.
A possible time table could be:
Current Eon: Already discussed by sxoa.
Historical Eon: Rise of Planar races. Possibly beginning w/the 'loths or perphaps the 'loths marking the beginning of the Fiends.
Pre-Historical Eon: The beginning of the Multiverse? Possibly incorperating planar races that were around before the rise of the 'loths. With the 'loths marking this eon's end and the beginning of the next.
Well, I'm tired so that's all I'm going say about that.
I haven't done much with it but here goes...I hope it helps some
The Lady of Pain is just one of three balance beings. The one for good dwells upon Mt. Celestia, The Lady wich is Neutral dwells in Sigil, The one for evil,(called by many names but most popular are Spel or Lilith) has been imprisioned somwhere under Hells ninth layer.
It started when Spel decided that she was going to end the reign of the Archdevils and take hell for herself. Originally she dwelt in the city of Dis and was accredited for it's creation.
Spel raised an army of cruel cold beings to be her foot soldiers and shock troops in her war. (for a visual idea see the biomechanoid works of H.R. Giger).
Fearing a loss of hell the blood war halted when a young Archdevil named Asemodeus forged an alliance between the warring tribes of demons and devils. The alliance could not stop Spel's assuault on hell and soon she expanded her attacks to the abyss.
Sensing the shifts in balance The lady appealed to her sister a top Celestia( no name has ever been recorded). The Lady wanted her sister to get involved knowong she could restore the balance. (originally these sisters could move form plane to plane).
The lady was shocked when her sister refused saying "What goes on in hell is none of my concern, nor should it be yours".
frustrated The Lady returned to Sigil to watch the growing war.
The war was being lost. More and more layers fell to Spel's armies and the remaining Archdevils had been exiled to Carceri. While there Asemodeus saw to Lucifers imprsionong and took the top seat among the hells.
Spel it seemed would dominate hell and all of the lower planes. Then she did something none would expect. She attacked the plane of Mechanus. Now with the plane of law shifting to evil it seemed Spel would soon assail The heavens and dominate all.
It was at this time seeing no other choice Asemodeus began to forge an allaince between heaven and hell to stop Spel's assault.
The next thousands of years saw many strange events. Angel and devil fought side to side to stop Spel's relentless attack. But to little avail.
Then when all seemed Lost the Lady appealed to her sister once again atop Celestia. This time she agreed to help stop Spel but warned the cost would be high.
Accepting this the two fought Spel to near death, not only thier death, but the death of the planes also. World after world died in this fight but soon Spel's forces were defeated.
All that was left was Spel herself. The lady used all of her power, as did her good sister to Maze Spel.
It did work but, the rule of three must be obeyed. The cost was the Imprisionment of Both The Lady and her good sister.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was taken from old faded fragments of stories handed down through eons in many worlds. It is not to be taken as truth nor as accurate.
Most scholors dismiss the notion that such powerful being exsist others deny that heaven or hell could work together.
But this story settles some questions that has arose during the ages.
The Lady of pain: being the balancing sister, she would be pulled from both sides. Painful, I'm sure.
LOP's: entrapment in Sigil. A cost for attacking her sister?
What is at the top of Celestia: one of the more reasonable explanations would be the other sister.
There have been variations of this myth. One accredits Spel with creating Mechanus. And that that plane could not be destroyed so the Lady moved it to keep Spel from ever finding it.
And Aosker : one variation is that Aosker was an agent of Spel sent to kill the Lady.
As always These are just theories. Given though the age and widespread finding of the texts that comprise the above story it is worth considering.
All the doors opened on the unknown by the setting were closed by the last products. And the coffin was nailed by Faction Wars, that changed Sigil into just another town.
I think PlaneScape should be what it was in the first products : a can of worms... Just that : a place of infinite possibilities triggered by belief, and imagination.
Give me a PlaneScape were Faction Wars never happened (and it never should according to what the initial setting books said), and I shall be happy...
In A Guide to the Astral Plane, they mention that the lich-queen is Vlaakith the CLVII. From there you could take a wild stab at roughly when the illithids were overthrown (32700 years ago, give or take a dozen millenia). Or not, since living on the astral skews the githyanki lifespan.
Yes, the illithine times were a definate benchmark, as would be the arrivals of various plane-spanning races.. the invention of spell-jamming, etc.
Originally posted by Quinn_Planesrunner
Keep in mind cutter we're just gettin' started. The Mechanus wasn't built in an Abyssal day.
How do you know how long it took for Mechanus to be built ? Was it built ? Did Time already exist back then ? Did "back then" exit ?
I fail to understand how you can base a good PlaneScape setting on such mundane concepts... What do you want unbound imagination or a nice and neat chronology ?
This is more recent history than ancient, but it struck me that tracking the active factions can also provide some benchmark of time. For example, Dead Gods lists the following factions as active during the distant past segment: the Dustmen, Expansionists, Fated, Fraternity of Order, Free League, Incanterium, Revolutionary League, and Sodkillers. We know the Sodkillers were folded into the Mercykillers when the Lady capped the number of factions, so this event clearly came before that.
I fail to understand how you can base a good PlaneScape setting on such mundane concepts... What do you want unbound imagination or a nice and neat chronology ? [/b]
Why not both? Putting together a list of everything that happened in Planescape and giving it a rough chronology isn't binding imagination in the least. On the contrary, having a list that DMs can look at and say "Oh yeah, I remember reading about the illithids being overthrown, that'd make a great start for a campaign. What else has happened since then?" helps them brainstorm and keep from writing themselves into inconsistent corners. The only thing a list like this limits, berk, is the tendency of sodding idiots (fingers will be restrained) to completely rewrite the setting or, worse, to forget the history of the setting and only play in the modern Planescape.
There, take your sodding soap-box back. It's about as comfortable as a shator teddy bear anyways.
I fail to understand how you can base a good PlaneScape setting on such mundane concepts... What do you want unbound imagination or a nice and neat chronology ?
As stated before I don't see these things as being crosswise to each other.
As for Mechanus being built in an Abyssal day, it's just a saying bub w/planar flavoring that's all. I don't know when/how/or if Mechanus was built it can be anything ya want and I t'aint trying ta tell ya no different, so pike it.
Originally posted by Mephit James
The only thing a list like this limits, berk, is the tendency of sodding idiots (fingers will be restrained) to completely rewrite the setting or, worse, to forget the history of the setting and only play in the modern Planescape.
If I understood the mood of the setting right, then it begs to be rewritten. Each and every faction, for a start, rewrites it from its point of view and agenda.
Even more, there was a toying with many pseudo-philosophical concepts. Time is one of those concepts that could shake the tree and have some very fruitful things falling... Now if you cast a timeline on the setting you have one opportunity killed.
I also don't see how you can mesh a Tir Na Og place along with a sound and true time table... Any ideas smart BrainStormers ?
I have the feeling most people here want to play PLANEscape, while I think what made the setting unique was the planESCAPE. I confess I first bought the Boxed Setting because of the very cool 1st Edition Manual of Planes. But what enthralled me was the unprecedented "mind opening" ideas and concepts within the box held. This is what I would like to have in a new edition of the Box Set...
Yet I would not like to impose my point of view to other people about this setting. The melting of ideas is what I loved in it. So please, just give those timelines from a view, not as real things, sound and true.
Regards.
PS : English not being my native language, I don't use the "cant"... I made a translation of it for my native (and gaming) language...
Now if you cast a timeline on the setting you have one opportunity killed.
I don't see how. There aren't going to be any hard and fast dates in planescape. The setting simply doesn't permit it. What we can do though is set things in relationship to each other. Cessna182 posted earlier that the 'history' of the planes could be shaped by the beliefs of those in the 'now'. I think it's a valid concept or at the very least an interesting one.
Originally posted by Quinn_Planesrunner
I don't see how. There aren't going to be any hard and fast dates in planescape. The setting simply doesn't permit it. What we can do though is set things in relationship to each other. Cessna182 posted earlier that the 'history' of the planes could be shaped by the beliefs of those in the 'now'. I think it's a valid concept or at the very least an interesting one.
Okay, so answer those questions please :
1. Did Faction War ever occur ? When ? Where ?
2. Was there a time before Sigil ?
3. Why most cutters think the Great Modron March was too early ?
Post you answers, then I shall post mine on those topics, and let's see which are most interesting and will make people feel that the more they learn, the less they know...
Originally posted by Tymophil
Okay, so answer those questions please :
1. Did Faction War ever occur ? When ? Where ?
Yes. In Sigil. Five years ago.
2. Was there a time before Sigil ?
Yes. Does anyone remember it? No.
3. Why most cutters think the Great Modron March was too early ?
It was.
1. Did Faction War ever occur ? When ? Where ?
How in the Nine Hells should I know. What do you want? 1492 Planar Reckoning? Come on cutter. Sigil, at least from all I've read. Never played the module. Personally I think Sigil w/o factions is like a dwarf w/o a beard, it just don't look right.
Five years ago.
See this is the part I don't get. You say five years ago, but what's a year? Even if you go by the cycle reckoning, what's a cycle?
2. Was there a time before Sigil ?
It's conceivable.
3. Why most cutters think the Great Modron March was too early?
Again how should I know? But here's one answer that won't satisfy. Since the Modron March takes place on the Outlands, and from all I've heard and read the Outlands does have night and day so there's one way of keeping track of time, people felt not enough time, or night day cycles if you prefer, had passed since the last March.
Time's a funny thing on the planes. Some planes have the good old night/day cycles to reckon by others don't. On some a body can be gone for, subjectively, years and not have passed much time at all on another plane or begone for years and not hardly age, witness the Astral.
A year in planescape is 13 months each of which is 28 days. A day is 24 hours.
A cycle is a rotation of the central cog of regulus, which takes aproximately 17 years. A grand cycle is 17 cycles or 289 years. The modron march occurs once every Grand Cycle. Because the last march was out of sync it is unknown when the next one will be. We will have to wait and see.
The flow of time is the same for most of the multiverse. If you go to the Astral with a clock for an hour and then return to Sigil, an identicle clock there will also say you have been gone for an hour. There are some places (mostly weird demiplanes and whatnot) where this does not hold true. The noteable exceptions are "The Boundless" where no matter how much time you spend on the demiplane you always seem to leave immediately after you left by outside reckoning. The Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) also has an area known as the Shadow Rift which for its inhabitants seems older than the actual age of the demiplane.
So discounting weird things like that, the flow of time is normal the multiverse over. A minute on Elysium, is the same as a minute on the elemental plane of Earth. You don't age the same everywhere, i.e. the Astral where no one ages and the layer of the Abyss where you age backwards, but a second is still the "time it takes for 9 192 631 770 oscillations of the Cesium atom at zero magnetic field" no matter where you are.
I'll try and map out another (olden times) eon later and put things relative to eachother. Soon. I hope.
i agree - the history of planescape should be listed somewhere, as a reference. what doesnt need to be explained is who is behind events.
ie. its one thing to know that the great modron march was early. its another thing to know why it was early, and what the consequences of this will be.
::Shakes fist out a nearby window::
Damn you, Orcus, get off my lawn or I'm calling the Inevitables!
I didnt think the modron cathedral or your palace had lawns. too random, the grass paterns,
Originally posted by sxoa
IIRC:
A year in planescape is 13 months each of which is 28 days. A day is 24 hours.
A cycle is a rotation of the central cog of regulus, which takes aproximately 17 years. A grand cycle is 17 cycles or 289 years. The modron march occurs once every Grand Cycle. Because the last march was out of sync it is unknown when the next one will be. We will have to wait and see.
The flow of time is the same for most of the multiverse. If you go to the Astral with a clock for an hour and then return to Sigil, an identicle clock there will also say you have been gone for an hour. There are some places (mostly weird demiplanes and whatnot) where this does not hold true. The noteable exceptions are "The Boundless" where no matter how much time you spend on the demiplane you always seem to leave immediately after you left by outside reckoning. The Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) also has an area known as the Shadow Rift which for its inhabitants seems older than the actual age of the demiplane.
So discounting weird things like that, the flow of time is normal the multiverse over. A minute on Elysium, is the same as a minute on the elemental plane of Earth. You don't age the same everywhere, i.e. the Astral where no one ages and the layer of the Abyss where you age backwards, but a second is still the "time it takes for 9 192 631 770 oscillations of the Cesium atom at zero magnetic field" no matter where you are.
1. What are your sources?
2. Upon what is the 13 month year based?
3. Planescape has atomic physics now?
Some things discussed in that site and official Planescape material in possible chronological order..
1.(Supposed) Original Multiverse is created by an entity of untold power. Primative Aboleths appear.
2. (Supposed) Orginal Prime Races(Dinosaurs and Reptilians) arise. Yugoloths appear on the Plane of Purest Evil. Tiamat and Bahamut create the Chromatic and Metallic Dragons. Gem and Neutral Dragons created by an unknown God, possibly Ao.
3. (Supposed) Reorganization of Inner and Outer Planes occurs, destroying the Old Para Planes of Steam and Dust as well as some ancient Outer Planes, massive extinctions occur threwout the Prime as the Dinosaur and Reptilian Races begin to dissapear on most worlds. Sigil appears over the Outlands.
4. (Supposed)Baatezu and Tanar'ri first encounter one another, at first cooperate with each other, and invade Upper Planes. Good Vs. Evil War begins
5. (Supposed) The Celestials manage to drive the combined Baatezu and Tanar'ri forces back to the Lower Planes. The leaders of each race blame the other for their defeat, and the Blood War begins.
6. The Queen of Chaos appears from the depths of Limbo, and allies with the Abyssal Lord Miska the Wolf-Spider, toghether they attack and attempt to dominate the Prime for the forces of Chaos and Evil. The Vaati windukes appear to champion the cause of Law, and the Law Vs. Chaos War begins. Queen of Chaos is victorious until the Vaati create the ultimate artifact of Law: The Rod of Seven Parts, and a permanent stalemate occurs. Miska is killed, but not before he fathers the Spyder-Fiends with the Queen of Chaos. On the Outlands, a new planar race, the Rilmani appear. Orginal inhabitants of the Outlands disappear.
7. The Elven God Correlion Larethan creates the Elves of the Prime, meanwhile, Moradin creates the dwarfs and Gruumish creates the Orcs. Humans later appear(or are created).
8. (supposed)Yugoloths create the Obalisks, which changes the Plane of Purest Evil into the Grey Waste. Yugoloths then mass-migrate to Gehenna(Much to the chagrin of the native race of that Plane), leaving their Plane of Origin for the armies of the Blood War, Hordelings, and the Greatest Yugoloths, the Baernoloths.
9. Mind Flayers arise on the Prime, master Spell-Jamming technology, and quickly spread threwout the Prime, conquering everything in their path not strong enough to resist, mainly, Human Dominated worlds. Elven and Dwarven nations develop their own Spell-Jammers, and go to war with the Illithids, but face an up-hill battle
10. The Arcane appear on the Prime, and begin selling weapons to the Elven and Dwarven Armadas. The Orcs temporally put aside their hatred of the Elves and Dwarfs and ally with them against the Illithids. Humans on one world, led by Gith, begin rebelling against the Illithid Empire. The Mind-Flayers ally with the Aboleths and Koa-Toa. In the end, the Illithid Empire crumbles, and the Mind Flayers and their allies retreat to the Underdarks of unnumerable Prime worlds.
11. Followers of Gith split into Githzerai, Githyanki, Pirates of Gith, and True Gith. Githzerai/Githyanki war begins. Lolth, wife of Correllian Larethan, is suduced by evil, and becomes the Spider-Queen. Followers of Correllian and Lolth battle across the Prime. Lolth's followers lose the war, are banished to the Underdark, and become the Drow.
12. First Faction War of Sigil takes place. Brotherhood of Living Plants(Veggies), Beutification League, and Vegetarians are destroyed(The Beutification League is destroyed by the Mercykillers, and the Brotherhood of Living Plants and the Vegetarians destroy each other because of their conflicting beliefs.
13. Second Faction War of Sigil takes place. Incantium, Expanionists and Sod Killers are destroyed this time around.
14. An extremely powerful wizard arrives in Sigil and challenges the Lady of Pain in a fight to the death. Wizard nearly defeats Lady, but not quite. Fate of Wizard is unknown
15. Great Modron March happens prematurely, a number of Gods dissappear and/or die. All events can be traced back to Orcus, a fallen Abyssal Lord.
16. Third Faction War of Sigil takes place. Guvners flee to Mechanus. Ring Givers become full-fledged faction. A number of faction leaders die or dissapear.
17. Discovery of a new plane known as the Far-Realm causes an uproar among scholars around the Multi-Verse as the entire way Planars see the Multiverse is challenged. Demi-Plane of Shadow expands into a full-fledged Plane. Queen Titania of the Fairies creates the Plane of Fairie as a new home for the Seelie Court. Plane of Mirrors is discovered. Guvners dub Shadow, Mirrors and Plane of Fairie as the "Other Planes" for lack of a better term.
18. The present day....
Some things discussed in that site and official Planescape material in possible chronological order..
1.(Supposed) Original Multiverse is created by an entity of untold power. Primative Aboleths appear.
2. (Supposed) Orginal Prime Races(Dinosaurs and Reptilians) arise. Yugoloths appear on the Plane of Purest Evil. Tiamat and Bahamut create the Chromatic and Metallic Dragons. Gem and Neutral Dragons created by an unknown God, possibly Ao.
3. (Supposed) Reorganization of Inner and Outer Planes occurs, destroying the Old Para Planes of Steam and Dust as well as some ancient Outer Planes, massive extinctions occur threwout the Prime as the Dinosaur and Reptilian Races begin to dissapear on most worlds. Sigil appears over the Outlands.
4. (Supposed)Baatezu and Tanar'ri first encounter one another, at first cooperate with each other, and invade Upper Planes. Good Vs. Evil War begins
5. (Supposed) The Celestials manage to drive the combined Baatezu and Tanar'ri forces back to the Lower Planes. The leaders of each race blame the other for their defeat, and the Blood War begins.
6. The Queen of Chaos appears from the depths of Limbo, and allies with the Abyssal Lord Miska the Wolf-Spider, toghether they attack and attempt to dominate the Prime for the forces of Chaos and Evil. The Vaati windukes appear to champion the cause of Law, and the Law Vs. Chaos War begins. Queen of Chaos is victorious until the Vaati create the ultimate artifact of Law: The Rod of Seven Parts, and a permanent stalemate occurs. Miska is killed, but not before he fathers the Spyder-Fiends with the Queen of Chaos. On the Outlands, a new planar race, the Rilmani appear. Orginal inhabitants of the Outlands disappear.
7. The Elven God Correlion Larethan creates the Elves of the Prime, meanwhile, Moradin creates the dwarfs and Gruumish creates the Orcs. Humans later appear(or are created).
8. (supposed)Yugoloths create the Obalisks, which changes the Plane of Purest Evil into the Grey Waste. Yugoloths then mass-migrate to Gehenna(Much to the chagrin of the native race of that Plane), leaving their Plane of Origin for the armies of the Blood War, Hordelings, and the Greatest Yugoloths, the Baernoloths.
9. Mind Flayers arise on the Prime, master Spell-Jamming technology, and quickly spread threwout the Prime, conquering everything in their path not strong enough to resist, mainly, Human Dominated worlds. Elven and Dwarven nations develop their own Spell-Jammers, and go to war with the Illithids, but face an up-hill battle
10. The Arcane appear on the Prime, and begin selling weapons to the Elven and Dwarven Armadas. The Orcs temporally put aside their hatred of the Elves and Dwarfs and ally with them against the Illithids. Humans on one world, led by Gith, begin rebelling against the Illithid Empire. The Mind-Flayers ally with the Aboleths and Koa-Toa. In the end, the Illithid Empire crumbles, and the Mind Flayers and their allies retreat to the Underdarks of unnumerable Prime worlds.
11. Followers of Gith split into Githzerai, Githyanki, Pirates of Gith, and True Gith. Githzerai/Githyanki war begins. Lolth, wife of Correllian Larethan, is suduced by evil, and becomes the Spider-Queen. Followers of Correllian and Lolth battle across the Prime. Lolth's followers lose the war, are banished to the Underdark, and become the Drow.
12. First Faction War of Sigil takes place. Brotherhood of Living Plants(Veggies), Beutification League, and Vegetarians are destroyed(The Beutification League is destroyed by the Mercykillers, and the Brotherhood of Living Plants and the Vegetarians destroy each other because of their conflicting beliefs.
13. Second Faction War of Sigil takes place. Incantium, Expanionists and Sod Killers are destroyed this time around.
14. An extremely powerful wizard arrives in Sigil and challenges the Lady of Pain in a fight to the death. Wizard nearly defeats Lady, but not quite. Fate of Wizard is unknown. Mysteryious force known as the Iron Shadow appears on the Outlands and begins erasing the Rilmani from existance. Iron Shadow is defeated by unknown means.
15. Great Modron March happens prematurely, a number of Gods dissappear and/or die. All events can be traced back to Orcus, a fallen Abyssal Lord.
16. Third Faction War of Sigil takes place. Guvners flee to Mechanus. Ring Givers become full-fledged faction. A number of faction leaders die or dissapear.
17. Discovery of a new plane known as the Far-Realm causes an uproar among scholars around the Multi-Verse as the entire way Planars see the Multiverse is challenged. Demi-Plane of Shadow expands into a full-fledged Plane. Queen Titania of the Fairies creates the Plane of Fairie as a new home for the Seelie Court. Plane of Mirrors is discovered. Guvners dub Shadow, Mirrors and Plane of Fairie as the "Other Planes" for lack of a better term.
18. The present day....
I wouldn't really include the Queen of Chaos/Vaati Wind Dukes thing as planar material. I've never seen it referenced outside of Greyhawk and I'd speculate that it was an event of great importance only on that one world.
Originally posted by Quinn_Planesrunner
1. What are your sources?
2. Upon what is the 13 month year based?
3. Planescape has atomic physics now?
1. A Guide to Sigil, The Great Modron March, A guide to the Astral Plane, A guide to the Ethereal Plane, The Shadow Rift (a Ravenloft Adventure)
2. Its the "standard" Guvner month
3. To limited extent, yes. For example: fires need oxygen to burn. On Krynn Gnomium was invented/discovered (its Uranium) by an evil gnome, gnomium plus (processed ie weapons grade uranium) is then created by him as well. "The weapon transferred a small part of Krynns sun to the battle field" The only thing that prevents the war of the lance turning into a nuclear holocaust is a noble spirited dragon lord who drops it in the mountains and executes the gnome (the story is in one of the anthologies). The atomic reference however was to simply define a second, since days, weeks, months, and years, are all based of that time unit.
Illithid Imperial Eon: Keep in mind this Eon very likely overlaps with others, this is probably just what was happening on the prime while the Blood War was just starting.
-Illithids appear on the scene, possibly the result of chronomancers going to a place where the timestream has disintigrated into gibberish. The orriginal Mind Flayers are believed to either be the chronomancers themselves, though horribly mutated, or sometthing from that time which followed them back.
-Illithids begin forming a pan primal empire: many humans are enslaved and experimented on. A few possible reasons that dwarves, elves, and other creatures did not undergo similar slavery are, that they were not created yet, or they were not widespread enough yet to be discovered by the Illithids.
-Experimentation on humanity causes them to mutate into a new species, seperate from humanity.
-Gith is born. She begins a rebellion that within her lifetime shatters the illithid empire.
-Gith and Zerthimon come into conflict. Civil war ensues. The Githzerai, as the followers of Zerthimon are known, lose and flee to Limbo. The Githyanki establish themselves on the Astral. The Pirates of Gith may or may not have have participated in the civil war, and are generally considered insignificant by those not being eaten by them.
-The Githyanki and Githzerai split into seperate races at some point.
Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime
Add the "vanishing" of gith and the Red Dragon Pact and the ascension of the Vlaakith line to your eon and I'll be happy.
I didn't put that in there because I consider it far enough after the Imperial Illithid Eon, to not be included. I say far enough after because the Gith civil war was also after the collapse of the Mind Flayer Empire
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
Timlin was mazed around 1000 years ago, you don't age inside the mazes
As to be expected, the yugoloth is quite astute. You have corrected my ignorance of not one but two pieces of information.
But now I want to know why only twelve factols met and decided to ask the Lady for her support against Timlin, since the Great Upheaval took place roughly 630 years ago.
At some point after that all the Incanterium rose to power and was mazed, but the dates on that happening are somewhat dark. It happened sometime within the past several hundred years, I'd want the say the past 500 or so.
Of course I'm going off the top of my head without bothering to look at either my books, or the nearly 100 page Sigil 3e draft (which is getting the final editing job now, its out of my hands finally). Thus I may be hazy on some of the numbers here since I know that I went back and pinned down some of these events in a timeline before, but I'm not looking at that, so pardon any errors here if you find them. Oinoloth knows I've been wrong on things before, and some of you folks keep me on my toes when I do. ;)
2.Elves(Not sure about the Dwarfs) were created
before humanity appeared or was created, and were probably in their golden age when the Mind-Flarers reign of terror began. As such, the Illithids would find a challenge to their rule in the Elves, not an easy meal, like the Humans. An internal rebellion(from Gith and the Proto-Gith races) is simply not enough to end the Empire of the Illithids. In order for an empire like that created by the Mind-Flarers to crumple, it would have to do so from within(Slave Rebellions) and without(Elven and Dwarven Armadas, perhaps Good and Neutral Dragons).
3. Yeah, I suppose 14 takes place before 13. Just reverse em.
4. What does everyone think of my take on how the Blood War started?
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
2.Elves(Not sure about the Dwarfs) were created
before humanity appeared or was created, and were probably in their golden age when the Mind-Flarers reign of terror began. As such, the Illithids would find a challenge to their rule in the Elves, not an easy meal, like the Humans. An internal rebellion(from Gith and the Proto-Gith races) is simply not enough to end the Empire of the Illithids. In order for an empire like that created by the Mind-Flarers to crumple, it would have to do so from within(Slave Rebellions) and without(Elven and Dwarven Armadas, perhaps Good and Neutral Dragons).
4. What does everyone think of my take on how the Blood War started?
2. Who came first is not proven in the least. Elves (of course) assert that they came first and had a golden age etc etc, and on some world this is true, however this is not correct across the entire prime or the planes.
2 (continued) The elves and dwarves were hardly a challenge to Illithid empire. If they were then fiends wouldn't have even considered pausing the blood war if a bunch of wussy mortals were capable of giving them some trouble.
An internal rebellion(from Gith and the Proto-Gith races) is simply not enough to end the Empire of the Illithids.
2 (continued once more): um actually it was. This is explicitly stated in a guide to the Astral. I can go find the quotes if you'd like.
4. Its an interesting take, but considered incorrect by most planar scholars. The Baatezu and Tanar'ri were at each others throats from the get go. Information on this can be found in the boxed set Hellbound: the Bloodwar, and the book Faces of Evil: the Fiends. If you don't have these and would like them cheap you can download them for under 5 dollars at svgames.com.
damn that was harsh, sorry I'm really not trying to be a dirtbag
Originally posted by sxoa
damn that was harsh, sorry I'm really not trying to be a dirtbag
Oh but it's so fun sometimes to be harsh! *claps hands together and flutters eyelashes*
And besides, I agree with your statements in the last post. It's pretty damn explicit that Gith and company took down the Illithids singlehandedly.
The Blood War pause was momentary, and it's happened on a few other occasions as well if the records in the Tower of the Arcanaloths in Gehenna are to be trusted. And considering that both the Tanar'ri and the Baatezu alike will grudgingly admit the truth of the matter if they're pressed, well there you go.
(The 'loths have a good bit of evidence to back up their claims for the history of the lower planes and since then. But of course the period before the Tanar'ri and Baatezu may be a bit self flattering to a degree since there were no other witnesses there besides themselves at the time)
In their wisdom, the baernaloths created the race of yugoloths, setting up the entire caste system and structure of the creatures so that their patron force would gain ever more adherents, followers who act with power to carry out the edicts of the baernaloths.
And thus arose the only race the seeks perfection. Other races claim that their goal is to achieve this ideal state, but these unfortunates allow mistakes and are tainted by their weak philosphies. Only the yugoloths truly court perfect, and ony the yugoloths have a chance of realizing this goal.
(At this point, the text digresses on the merits of the yugoloth race, returning to its original focus hundreds of pages later.)
Self flattering? To a degree? But its soooo out character!
I just looked over my Astral Guide, and your right.
No further rebuttals on my Rod of Seven Parts comment, guess Im right this time around!
Would you consider Spyder Fiends Tanar'ri?
In 3e they might be Tanar'ri, I'm not sure. A lot of things that I wouldn't have considered Tanar'ri or Baatezu were not only put under the Devil or Demon category (which is fine) but were also listed as a type of Tanar'ri or Baatezu (which I take issue with).
Originally posted by sxoa
A lot of things that I wouldn't have considered Tanar'ri or Baatezu were not only put under the Devil or Demon category (which is fine) but were also listed as a type of Tanar'ri or Baatezu (which I take issue with).
Out of curiousity, which ones?
And I'm still waiting for a decent Nabassu conversion into 3e. *impatient 'lothy scowl*
I think Hellcats were listed as a type of batezu, maybe imps too. IIRC those things were often created by Baatezu or at least used by them, and I think imps might have been able to be turned into baatezu, but they were no more an actual Baatezu than an unformed larva. Also demons that I have seen, have "Tanar'ri traits" and then under Tanar'ri traits it says like all demons, rather than like all tanar'ri.
[EDIT added "a"]
I'll list them(Since I have the books in question hehe)
Tanar'ri, True
Alkilith(PSMC2)
Tanar'ri, Greater
Goristro(MCA3, Chaos Monstrious Suppliment)
Tanar'ri, Lesser
Armanite(MCA3, Chaos Monstrious Suppliment)
Bulezau(PSMC2)
Maurezhi(PSMC2)
Uridezu(MCA4)
Yochlol(PSMC2)
Yugoloth, Lesser
Canoloth(PSMC2)
Gacholoth(MCA4)
Thats alot of interesting new fiends to add to the ranks.
Interesting note: Tanar'ri can only be promoted to Yochlol by Lolth, makes you wonder if other Abyssal Gods and Lords have their own special Tanar'ri varietys doesn't it?
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Alkilith(PSMC2)
Goristro(MCA3, Chaos Monstrious Suppliment)
Armanite(MCA3, Chaos Monstrious Suppliment)
Bulezau(PSMC2)
Maurezhi(PSMC2)
Uridezu(MCA4)
Yochlol(PSMC2)
Canoloth(PSMC2)
Gacholoth(MCA4)
Actually, all of those but the Bulezau and Gacholoth have been converted to 3e already in various WotC books.
In order:
Alkilith = Fiend Folio
Goristro = MotP
Armanite = MotP
Maurezhi = Fiend Folio
Uridezu = MotP
Yochlol = Monsters of Faerun
Canoloth = MotP
Does Planeswalker intend on doing 3rd edition conversions of
Bulezau(Shock Troops of the Tanar'ri hoards) and Gacholoths?(The Terrorists of the Blood War).
It would make sense to have both as official monsters, but then again, thats just my opinion.
The Guardian 'loth was more a construct created by the Yugoloths to serve as summoning stock for mortals and for their own use.
If it makes you feel better, oh chaotic expert on fiends you, I don't have a copy of the original source for them. ;)
*cough* "Ummm... I'm bad research material. I'd however suggest a little shop in the Lower Ward run by this 'other' Arcanaloth who would make a darling research project for you."
*GRIN*
A brief sample:
........................................................................................................
Gacholoths are the infiltrators and terrorists of the Blood War. They use their abilities to cause havoc and spread panic behind enemy lines. They also might spend months, years, even centuries, serving in the army of a temporary master with unquestioned loyalty, while secretly waiting for the best moment to reveal their true allegence and begin a reign of slaughtor and terror.
.......................................................................................................
Now which DM wouldn't want one of these in his Planescape campaign?
Perhaps Xanxost will just conduct research on every Yugoloth Xanxost can find in the Lower Planes until the answer is found. Xanxost loves reasearch!
*posts additional goons in the Fortune's Wheel to prevent any untimely 'studies' from being conducted by Slaadi on the premises*
The complete Yugoloth chain of command would look something like this:
Dergholoth, Mezzoloth, Canoloth, Piscoloth, Hydroloth, Gacholoth, Yagnoloth, Marraeloth, Nycaloth, Arcanaloth, Ultroloth, and finally, Oinoloths(The leader of all Yugoloths) and Altraloths, the Yugoloth versions of Abyssal Lords(Detailed in Dragon Annual 2).
1) The REALLY early days (Not easily playable, but still interesting), when the Inner planes were being formed. More playable, but still quite interesting, the time when deities were merely spirits that were worshipped by mortals. Essentially, when the makeup of the planes was first made (Theoretically, the baern could easily be the souls of the first truly evil beings to -ever- exist, etc)
2) The 'frontier days' would be interesting, as well. At some point, mortals didn't have access to anything but the prime sans through worship (The pre-wizards era?), and the outsiders would have a heck of a time getting to the prime, and, especially, the inner planes. Then you have the notion of the various forms of trans-planar movement being ALIVE or otherwise more than they seem (color pools, conduits, etc). All of this had to -happen-, after all.
3) Several key points in exemplar history have occured, that should always be kept in mind, beyond the well-known lower planar stuff: The Chaining of the Slaadi to their forms and disposition, the migration of various races (Bladelings, that race that slew their own deity, etc), etc. Also, you have the time of invention of new breeds (After all, many of the 'accessory' fiends that keep popping up were created as much as risen).
4) The first life forms: Long before the outer planes could even reasonably exist, aside from, perhaps, the beastlands (since animals have souls, it would be reasonable to assume the Beastlands and/or the Outlands were the first outer planes, and that all else diverged from it/them), there were non-sentient beasts and semi-sentient animals, such as dinosaurs, the ancestors of mammals, giant insects, etc, which are now quite rare.
5) The plant folk: Where the bloody hell in the timeline did myconids and vegepygmies show up?
Too bad it never got past the vague idea for a module phase, it would have been interesting
And aye, the Astral, and, really, -any- of the discoveries were benchmarks, though I wager they were different for the outsiders and the Outsiders (I've always loved how they used that word in 3e, heh). Hmmnn..and can you imagine what the first five planes would be like... again, I think they would have all had to come from the beastlands and the outlands, initially... which easily explains guardinals, and makes one wonder about the somewhat antelope-skull-like apearance of the baern... the nightmares.. etc... the fact that slaadi are, in appearance, semi-frog-like... and makes one wonder what would have come before modrons, since I seriously doubt one would find clockwork that early in Nirvana's history... (And anyone who says 'ants' gets a touch of the plane of ash)
Throw in their diseased, wasted bodily appearance and their penchant for alternating between cold, distant sadism and manic insanity and I think they fit their place pretty darn well.
Don't have any 3rd addition material, don't plan on getting any currently(I live in an area devoid of other gamers). So please forgive my ignorance when you refer to any 3rd edition monsters.
Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
I always found the appearance of the Baern to be somewhat derived from the classic view of the Satanic goat. The image on the cover of Giger's Necronomicon being a pretty good rendition of that same archetype.
Throw in their diseased, wasted bodily appearance and their penchant for alternating between cold, distant sadism and manic insanity and I think they fit their place pretty darn well.
That sounds just like Anthraxus! Is Anthraxus one of the Baern?
The current Oinoloth Mydianchlarus is very likely not one of these but simply an extremely powerful Ultraloth prince, now twisted, enmpowered and warped by the Seige Malicious.
The Baernaloths appear to garner a fear and nearly godlike worship from the Yugoloths who obey them almost implicitly. Curiously as well this ability to command Yugoloths seems to extend equally to Tanar'ri and Baatezu, though the 'loths seem to consider this servitude an utter honor and do so willingly.
IT MEANS THAT THE BAERNALOTHS ALONE POSSESS THE POWER TO END THE BLOOD WAR AND CREATE AN ENORMIOUS UNITED ARMY OF EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MHahahahhahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!
One that would probably crush the celestials and pull the entire multiverse into the darkness.
Hmm. I swell module material here!!
Hellbound mentions that when the 'loths created the Tanar'ri and Baatezu, they may have inserted into the essence of those fiends innate and contingent programming that could be triggered in the future by the 'loths to reign in their misbetton creations. Perhaps when the grand experiment in evil that is the Blood War has reached a point where the 'loths are satisfied with what they've seen they'll use that to end the war.
Going with that idea there's a statement in the writeup of the Baernaloths in 'Planes of Conflict' that some of them, having descended into fits of insanity, have according to legend participated in the Blood War, leading bands of randomly assorted fiends. There's something 'odd' going on if Tanar'ri, Baatezu and even 'loths fight together under the banner of anything on a Blood War battlefield against one or both sides already butchering each other.
Sure there's alternate interpretations and even some doubt in the accuracy of some of the legends of the origin of the lower planes as seen through the lens of the Yugoloth libraries and sages. But that's my interpretation anyways. If you've got an alternate one please do elaborate
I'm not sure that I believe the screed that the Baernaloths created the Yugoloths either. More likely, the Yugoloths, like any other planar race, were spawned by their orginal homeplane. The Baernaloths just might be the true ultimate form a Yugoloth can take, one step up from Ultroloth.
Yes the 'loths spring from the essence of the planes of conflict, but the first of them were likely drawn up and out of that essence by the Baern, patterning those 'loths who would in the future be born from the plane.
And there's no evidence to suggest that there's any way for a Yugoloth to ascend to become an Ultraloth. They're just something else entirely, like the original perfect forms that outshine their own mass produced replicas of their evil that they created as their children.
Oh and Shemiska, Planes of Conflict explecitly states that Ultroloths are promoted from Arcanaloths, and are usually the last promotion an Ultroloth can receive.
And yes, that means that you too Shemiska, may one day become an Ultroloth.
But don't think that means I'll be afraid of you. You may become the zenith of Pure Evil, but seeing as I am a Great Red Wyrm, I think that more than evens the score!
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
So theres no "real" diabolical and/or disturbing Fiends out there, they are all basically Yugoloth lab rats?
There are the Ancient Baatorians, and possibly Ancient Abyssians as well, though the latter was never mentioned and their existance is highly doubtful due to the morphic nature of the Abyss.
Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon
Oh and Shemiska, Planes of Conflict explecitly states that Ultroloths are promoted from Arcanaloths, and are usually the last promotion an Ultroloth can receive.
And yes, that means that you too Shemiska, may one day become an Ultroloth.
But don't think that means I'll be afraid of you. You may become the zenith of Pure Evil, but seeing as I am a Great Red Wyrm, I think that more than evens the score!
Oh indeed, indeed. But why bother with promotion when I can pull enough strings in Sigil to outshine any random Ultraloth back home on the Waste and can ensure that I'll be the subject of every other jealous gossip between every inhabitant in the Tower of the Arcanaloths in Gehenna? :D
And you should be afraid of me, especially if you keep spelling my name with an i instead of a second e. *peery glare*
As for the Ancient Abyssians, I'd probably support the theory that the Tanar'ri destroyed them(Tanar'ri can hardly co-exist with themselves, let alone other races)
However the Ancient Baatorians are anything BUT non combative. For instance, the THINGS stuck in the ice of Cania are very clearly frozen in the middle of an all out battle with Aasimon and Archons. Makes one wonder about that early stretch of the Planes and what was apparently going on before the Blood War began. A war between LG and LE? A war between good and evil? Though of course the 'loth records say nothing of any major conflicts between themselves and the upper planes so the first option is more likely.
The immature Ancient Baatorian in 'Tales from the Infinite Staircase' was very aggressive and attacked anything within its reach as it attempted to break free of the chains it had been wrapped in by the Kyton lord of Jangling Hiter. Interestingly enough it had been a 'gift' by a Yugoloth to the ruler of the city. The Kyton had thought it perhaps the essence of a former Baatezu highup returned as a lower form, and so he kept it chained and over time it began to change...
The 'loths seem to have kept the creature and allowed it the time needed to mature before they gave it to the Kyton as an experiment, simply to see what would happen in Baator if it got loose, or to cause friction between the Kytons and Baatezu. Makes a blood wonder if the 'loths have more of them and just how much they know about them.
Another interesting note, now that Shemeska's brought up that Cania ice site. The ancient baatorians are fighting contemporary baatezu and archons together. In places it almost looks like the archons and the baatezu are fighting together against the massive tentacled baatorians. Makes a blood wonder just what was going on... Maybe the contingent of Keepers that guards the city knows...
