tryst
Originally posted by tryst_91
does anyone know if this article is still available anywhere or who wrote it?
I wrote it. If it still exists, Alanik Ray's website might have it.
thanks,
tryst
tryst
In the ruins of the Arak
From the letters of the late Elijah Lareck of the Dark Delvers.
Long has Arak lain dead and empty, shunned by fearful man. So suddenly was life erased from its surface, no one escaped to tell its tale. Others feared the Drow, the blessed elves who dwell below, so none returned to learn its secrets. Long did the Drow protect Arak's secrets. But after the Great Upheaval, the lights of the Drow were seen no more, and the dwarven miners of Tempe Falls crept past Arak's borders to seek her treasures. These dwarves reported that the Drow were gone, and now there is talk among scholars. These scholars seek to enter the lightless realm of the Drow and learn their secrets. But we already know Arak's secrets...
Arak appeared from the mists in 575, a mountainous domain. At the time, the land some sages call the Core consisted solely of Barovia and Forlorn. Compared to the spiritually oppressive Barovia and the thoroughly unpleasant Forlorn, Arak must have been a welcome reprieve. At the time, Hyskosa was beginning to make a reputation as a travelling prophet of doom, and Azalin was busy unraveling the fabric of the mists for his master, Strahd.
For 13 years Arak was a living land. The people of Arak were primitive compared to our advanced culture, still in a brutal dark age. Men fought each other to the death for the pleasure of others in the capitol's great arena, and the peasantry still naively worshipped their false gods in several great temples. The folk of Arak were human, but they had legends of two other races: first, the dwarves, a reclusive race of miners who had been wiped out by the second race, the Drow. These were the first elves most people in the Core had ever heard of. The Drow were supposedly an evil race of night raiders, but no one could be found who had ever seen one himself. Some said this was because the Drow kept to themselves, deep under the earth. Others simply claimed that those who saw the Drow did not live to tell the tale. But all could point to the lights at the mountain peaks, the lights which appeared only at night. The folk said these were the Drow looking down on the land, and anyone not safely behind town walls by sunset was considered easy prey for the night elves. Thus, the folk of Arak were as fearful of the night as the Barovians.
There were three mountain peaks, and as many settlements, all in a valley which curved to the north, a trade passage leading nowhere. The capitol was a great city, the Il Aluk of its time. There were two other, smaller settlements, but all had sturdy walls around them to keep out the night and what it hid. The land was dry and dusty, even then; the folk lived by coaxing crops from the valley beds, or herding sheep and goats in the higher elevations. Mining was lucrative, but high-risk; many fearful tales spoke of mine tunnels that broke through into the realm of the Drow.
While Arak was a living land, the Core grew: Azalin and Strahd drew in Mordent in October 579, and by the end of that year Azalin left Barovia and Darkon took form. Mordent was attached to Barovia, roughly where Borca is now; Darkon appeared north of Arak. In fact, Arak was the only land link between Darkon and the rest of the Core, and the "passage to nowhere" now led to Sidnar. Bluetspur had also appeared before that fateful day in 588 when an unnatural sandstorm wiped out every living thing on Arak's surface, even altering its topography; the capitol city and the mountain under which it sat vanished, reappearing miles to the west. We know this was the creation of Keening, which appeared in its current location like a lamprey on Darkon's belly. The capitol became what is now known as the City of the Dead, watched over by mournful Tristessa.
In the absence of any real explanation, everyone blamed the Drow, a blind accusation only partially true. At any rate, Arak was now a blasted, lifeless realm to be feared and shunned, effectively cutting Darkon off from the rest of the Core until later additions filled the gaps. Until then, only the bravest souls dared to try Arak's mountain pass (risking the supposed wrath of the Drow), or to sail though the Mists from Martira Bay to Mordentshire. Many who entered Arak were never seen again, and never did anyone return who had encountered the Drow. It was said that no one who entered the realm of the Drow was ever seen again.
After the Great Upheaval, Azalin claimed the lands of Arak as part of Darkon. Although the stalwart dwarven miners of Tempe Falls crept into the area and reported that the Drow were gone, the fear of their memory still kept most away. But not us...
So what of the Drow? What do we know of them or their lord? Even the name "Arak" refers to the human, surface realm. Sages know nothing of the Drow culture, not even the name the Drow gave to their land. Here they have only one source to work with: the Vistani legend of Tristessa, the Banshee. So what does that tell them? Tristessa's son was born with a spider's legs; for this she and her child her put to death. The method: tied out on the surface to be burned up by the sun. What can we glean from this? In truth, the story is more telling than it seems.
First, the child: its description sounds like a drider, correct? But according to the accepted "facts" of the surface realm, driders are only created after an adult Drow fails a rite of loyalty, not at birth. It seems that the driders of Arak, although still rejected by their kin, could now be created as accidents of birth.
Second, the means of execution: you can leave a Drow out in the sun for as long as you want and he isn't going to die, he's just going to be severely weakened. Left out long enough, he'll adapt. So it seems that the Drow of Arak are unusually vulnerable to sunlight.
The sages have long pondered the meaning of these clues, and have learned nothing. But we know. In the absence of the Drow, our members have gone deeper into Arak than others could imagine, and in the artifacts the dark elves left behind we have gleaned much of the truth.
The lord of Arak was a Drow, one who wanted to rule, but for some reason was excluded from power. The trick here is to learn the reason for the Powers to pick out this individual; what makes him or her so much worse than the rest of the chaotic, evil, conniving Drow?
The Darklord was a Drow living in a dark elf society basically similar to those found in legends of other worlds (i.e. matriarchal, dedicated to Lolth, etc.). This Drow was a male, and thus forever excluded from the highest levels of power. Despite this, he gained a reputation as a skilled military tactician, who led his House's forces on a number of highly successful raids against the surface dwellers. For these victories, he might even have gained an unusual amount of power and respect for a male, but a male he still was. he still had to bow to every female he came across, no matter their relative station.
This Drow was dedicated to the destruction of the surface dwellers. He would be the first Drow since legend to conquer and hold surface territory. He felt he had the skill to lead such a war campaign, and he estimated that his city had more than enough forces to do it. But he was a male. The priestesses above him still had first and final say in all such matters, and they did not see him capable of such grandeur. In the Drow male's mind, the priestesses were his main obstacle to conquering the surface, and for that matter, ruling his own city.
This Drow had troops who followed his every command with as much loyalty as Drow are capable. After he presented his plan of conquest to them, they became his private spies and assassins. First, he had his men stage raids against his own city, planting evidence that the surface dwellers were pressing into Drow territory. As these raids became more frequent, the dark elves started to call out for retribution. Careful in his plotting, the Drow male aimed his raids at targets that would cause the most shock while not actually weakening the military might of the Houses. The priestesses planned retaliatory attacks, but since the Drow male was one of their advisors, the forces sent by the priesthood were always ambushed, overcome, or variously one step behind the mysterious surface raiders.
Reluctantly, the priestesses turned to the male for aid. He pressed for an all-out assault on the largest surface city in the region. This would be no simple raid; in one night they would conquer the city or raze it. This assault would require all of the city's armies, however; every House must put their full strength into the battle.
After months of planning, the raid took place. The Drow armies poured out of the surface city's sewers, slaughtering the sleeping inhabitants like the legendary Greeks in Troy. Only one House had no troops in the battle: the House of the male Drow. His forces held back, and while the other Houses were weakening themselves during the attack, the traitors returned to the city and hunted down every member of the priesthood. With the weight of their defenders on the surface, the priestesses were slaughtered.
By dawn, the Drow armies were victorious and tried to return to their city. They found the entrances sealed. Informed that the priesthood of Lolth was no more, those dark elves who would pledge fealty to the Drow male were admitted; those more loyal to their own House were left to go blind in the sunlight, to find other holes to hide in as the surface dwellers hunted them down.
The Drow male now had control of his city. Although it was temporarily weakened, it would grow strong again, and then he would finally conquer the surface lands. For now, the death of the city above would keep the surface dwellers away, put the real fear of his people into their hearts.
Some among his people complained, lamenting that Lolth would punish them all for his treachery. He scoffed at this, saying that in his city, Lolth was no more. Worship of the Spider Queen was outlawed on pain of death. Through force of numbers, his loyal troops (now enjoying the higher status of their House) kept the other Houses in line. And so he ruled. Briefly.
The surface dwellers did not stay away. The razing of the city did not put fear in their hearts. Righteous anger found a home instead. Mere weeks after the surface city was wiped out, armies from neighboring regions joined together in the name of vengeance. First, they hunted down the Drow left trapped on the surface. From these abandoned warriors, they learned the best means to attack the Drow city.
The Drow male had languished under the rule of the priestesses for decades, spent years obtaining his victory. Now, in the wink of an elven eye, the accursed surface dwellers were pouring into his city, slaughtering his people! The surface dwellers decimated the dark elves, but when they reached the inner sanctum of the Drow male, all they found was an empty room, a cold mist dissipating along the floor.
The Drow male found himself in a strange Drow city. It bore the name of his home, but it was a fraction of the size and power of his homeland. He still ruled, but no one remembered his gloried conquest, either of his own city or that of the surface dwellers. Lolth was not worshipped, but she was feared. Here, driders were not made in a ritual. Instead, anyone could suddenly, painfully, and permanently be transformed into one of the accursed creatures. This was rare, but utterly random: dark elf mothers could even give birth to the horrors. These unfortunates were seen as accursed creatures, not because they were unworthy in Lolth's eyes, but because they were signs that Lolth was finding ways back into their world. And that when she finally returned, there would be a dread reckoning. Such freaks were quickly killed. The dark elf mothers who gave birth to these monsters met a similar fate. Still, rumors spoke of driders who had escaped into the tunnels, and who sought vengeance against the people that would kill them.
At the peak of each mountain, an underground temple looked down on the valleys. In each temple, an unholy bonfire blazed. Although the light and heat from the flames caused the dark elves as much pain as sunlight, they had to keep the bonfires lit at all times. It was claimed that if ever the flames died out, Lolth would return to wreak her vengeance.
Confused, the Drow male led a small raiding party to the surface to explore. The land was different: these humans feared the Drow, but had never been conquered. The Drow had conquered another race, the dwarves, but this was far in the past; the victory was not the Drow male's to enjoy. Worst of all, the Drow male discovered that he, and his new peoples, were even more susceptible to the sun. It actually burned them now, and even stralight caused prickling, annoying pain. The night raiders had to cover themselves completely just to partake in their raids.
The male Drow returned to rule over his city. His small city won without glory. His people knew of no great military victories for which to respect him, and conquest of the surface dwellers was now forever outside his grasp. His advisors told him of secret plots: assassin guilds dedicated to his death in order to put their own puppet on the throne, and fanatical cultists of Lolth driven to bring their goddess back, no matter what the cost.
And worst of all, he found a small, hard patch of skin on his thigh. Chitin. As the years dragged on, he discerned what was happening: he was ever so slowly becoming an accursed drider, and it was only a matter of time until he could hide it no longer...
During the Great Upheaval, the Drow lord disappeared, and the bonfires sputtered out. Something came from the beyond to ravage the Drow who remained. Those dark elves who could not flee were wiped out. The panicked Drow believed the Thing was their evil goddess Lolth, come for them at last, but they were wrong. We know what lies deep beneath Arak's soil.
In past months, a small group of scholars convened in Tempe Falls. They intended to organize an expedition to enter the dead realm of the dark elves, and learn their secrets. Sadly, the unearthly destruction of Il Aluk, and the University of the same name, robbed them of their funding. They should count themselves lucky, for two reasons: first, their research took them away from Il Aluk before death fell upon it.
Secondly, because they will soon recieve a new source of funds. Members of our organization will approach these scholars as wealthy patrons. We will grant the needed money and supplies. All we ask is that we be allowed to join their expedition and venture into the subterranean realm to bask in the abandoned glories of the Drow civilization.
We will travel with the scholars into the realm of the Drow. And there we will find the Thing which destroyed the Drow. Our Hated Mother. And when we find her, we will offer up the hapless scholars as glorious sacrifice!
Power of the Hated Mother to you,
Elijah Lareck
[Game notes: A few Drow from Arak may have escaped the destruction of their civilization, either because they were able to escape the horrors at the time, or because they had already been exiled or forced to flee for other reasons. By value of their skills in hiding from prying eyes, a number of driders may still survive deep within Arak.
Any Drow or drider native to Arak suffers 1 HP of damage per turn spent in direct sunlight, along with other penalties described in the MM.]
As usual the attempts to change what was already written didn't come out without flaws.........
The new version is good........I just think there could have been a better way to change things and leave the Drow as having been in Arak.........the Grand Conjunction could have been used to explain a lot.......and I think the Drow are definately evil enough to warrant a domain.
[i]I think the Drow are definately evil enough to warrant a domain. [/b]
Be careful- them's is old-school words... see WE think you just need to be evil to be in Ravenloft cause its a prison, but the new view of RL is you can't just be evil, you have the be "gothic and tragic" evil.
now 200 fans are going to come on and tell you that. You opened up a whole can of worms now!
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~andrew
Originally posted by daffy72
Be careful- them's is old-school words... see WE think you just need to be evil to be in Ravenloft cause its a prison, but the new view of RL is you can't just be evil, you have the be "gothic and tragic" evil.
It's always been the view that it takes more than being evil to have a Domain, it's been saying that since the Black Box and the descriptions of what makes a good villain.
Gothic isn't a requirement, it's a descriptor of the type of evil needed. The term hedges loosely together several like descriptions and ideas that describe the feel the villian is meant to have.
If it was simply evil there would have been Domains with demons, orcs, dragons, and the like since day one.
But then what seperates RL from FR?
We picked up the two Ravenloft adventures and the secret of bone hill and the assassins knot and liked the intrigue and thinking mans game and horror and mystery they presented more then the hack and slash and created our own setting out of that. when realm of terror came out we said cool, more countries [Domains]
One player at one point said oh ive had this oriential adventures thing and never got to use it, could i be a character from there, stuck in RL?
DM: let me see that. yeah. fine.
3E setting came out we said cool- 3e conversion.
and here I am.
Who needs FR? FR can bite my ass
There you like that Jester? There is a nice home grown NYC responce for you. :D
in NWN- the oldest dragon- some evil red dragon, was having his cronies stealing dragon eggs- using magic to grow them into adults really fast, without a developmed mind, killing them and absorbing their lifeforce so he could keep living.
he had ancient artifact of immense power that i needed to save the world from certain doom. he really didnt care about it cause it did not further his own goals
a deal he makes: fetch me someeggs and a life force. Im told by a green dragon i can poison the life force and weaken him and maybe destroy him
so me thinks- this is the oldest living senscient thing in the world. i have no right to kill it. if it found a way to survive this long who am *I* to decide that it needs to be denied existance? its vew of the tapastry of life is far beyond my understanding could ever be.
so i stole the eggs of the green dragon that warned me, got the life force gave it to the dragon- he was actually polite, opened the door and said your relic is in there.
everyone goes home happy. and that dragon is cool. he kept his word. he didnt BS me. sure hes not very moral, but for the life of one dragon he gave a major contribution to save the world and further his own existance.
That big ole lizard is PERFECT for RL, and if he got sucked in, i bet id be right along side him as his croney, and i would deserve to be there.
as to demons- there are some in RL.
Orcs- cotton picking orcs- they make such great unskilled laborers that they are snatched up and sold on the slave market the second they show up in RL....
me thurgo.. me smash!
Look! an orc!
he will bring more money in then the whole village makes in a year!
GET HIM!
me thurgo... just pawn. in game of life....
heh. humans. They suck
Originally posted by daffy72
Be careful- them's is old-school words... see WE think you just need to be evil to be in Ravenloft cause its a prison, but the new view of RL is you can't just be evil, you have the be "gothic and tragic" evil.
now 200 fans are going to come on and tell you that. You opened up a whole can of worms now!
Hive of bees is more like it.
Hive of bees in a dogs mouth, so that when, well...you probably know where I'm going with this.
Anyway, it seemed to me that, while perhaps simple "evil" may have been enough way back when, as Ravenloft has evolved, it's become more a matter of not just being evil, but being so above and beyond ones natural inclinations.
Thus, a wolfwere who sings to a wandering Kartakan and then makes wolf-chow out of him won't cause so much as a blip on the Dark Powers scale of Darklord fun, because that's what wolfwere's do.
Conversely, a wolfwere who decides he's going to become a tyrant and king, forsaking the more solitary ways of his people to become a ruler of men, and a dark hearted one at that, well...he's just stepped beyond the boundaries of what's expected of a wolfwere.
That's my thought on the matter, anyway.
At the same time it is a juvenile and simplistic view of evil.
What makes an ancient green dragon evil?
It's a chromatric dragon, they're all evil.
Why?
They just are.
When did fall from grace?
No idea.
What makes it tragic? Relatable? Sypathetic?
Nothing really, it's beyond me. I can kinda relate to its wish not to die, but not like a vampire who made a deal or a lich. Isn't 100,000 years enough?
What makes it an interesting character? What are its foibles and qwirks?
Pass.
Dragons like demons and orcs and drow come off less evil than people because they do not choose to be evil, they are cartoon evil from a society of evil. They're raised evil and have no choice, doomed to only do bad things bceause it is all they know.
Humans and other races are different, they know what they are doing is wrong and they know they shouldn't BUT they do anyway. Thus are they Darklords.
Originally posted by The_Jester
What makes it an interesting character? What are its foibles and qwirks?
Pass.
Dragons like demons and orcs and drow come off less evil than people because they do not choose to be evil, they are cartoon evil from a society of evil.
Well that's the difference between playing with sycophants and whiners and creative players and DMs. We had level 10,000 players sure. When we were ELEVEN. Sure characters were cartoon evil when we were young teenagers. If you just go by a rule book, with no creation, no changes, nothing to make it your own... of course its dull and boring.
Good DMs throw 90% of a book out and make up the rest anyway. Then the players cant compain "that's not what the book says" and you have an adventure you can't hope to predict. There is a reason why D&D was only 3 core books for a very long time, that's all you need.
I think that's why so many are freaking out now, that the books are just filled with useful information. Without a story all laid out... many can't create one of their own. The more I'm on these gaming boards i'm sadly starting to realize old school gaming is dead. The beauty of creative freedom- the one outlet movies and games and books could never hope to overcome was the creative process of group storytelling. Well now games are bogged down with exacting rules, regulations, red tape and BS
Then again we always used the demi-human and non human races to represent different aspects of human society. What is there to hold one's interest in cartoon evil characters?
Un-creative DMs maybe never give ulterior motives, but with creatures --------INTELLIGENCE-------- is listed to be taken into consideration. Right THERE it shows they are not one dimensional cartoon evil. Or i could argue cartoon evil is all around. Why is it fun to chear on Indiana jones when he takes out those melting nazis? cause they were just a bad idea. A black spot on all of humanity. I'm ashamed they are even from the same species as me, but they are. And just like then if the government rewarded people the way they did then, a society would become just like them again. Groovy huh? So does that make people cartoon evil? Pretty sickening if you ask me.
So back to non human creatures-
so we have intelligence.
You have complex emotions and responses
You have THEIR motives, dreams, asperations, fears, anexieties, religion, idea what their role in the universe is, their complex family units, their leisure, sports, desires and biological and chemical makeup and their plans, and for the truly intelligent of any race or species- a creature's complex plan within a plan...
Sounds pretty advanced to me. Oh wait? You as a DM or your group never thought to associate any of that stuff to living, breathing senscient beings?
Well then maybe thats why like pavlov's dog its not even a thinking resonse to you when you hear "Drow" or "Lizardman"
It took 4 months for you to understand i wasnt talking about the Drow in YOUR head. You didn't HEAR what i was saying. Oh, evolved drow, oh they are cultured, oh they are refined evil- novel ideas! FOR YOU.
THAT is Drow in our world. They are elves that are more destructive then good. Like your precious humans, they know what they are doing is wrong and they know they shouldn't BUT they do anyway. Thus are as evil as the human Darklords. Worse, cause they live longer and their minds are able to work out longer plots and macerations. And all that before they decide to be a lich or something and want to exist forever.
Weather you realize it or not youre being a Bigot. Weather that term really CAN apply to make believe characters is unknown to me, but like most of our sad pathetic species you consider the acts of humanity as some sort of accomplishment. you consider humans some sort of apex of biological, societial, and philosophical achievement. You cant possibly concieve that the other species might be on par with humanity of *GASP* be superior to them in some way.
1. thank god there is so much empty space between us and the next habitable system so hopefully we get our crap together before we get there.. IF we survive that long.
2. Any kind of advanced life out there, or group, federation, empire, etc. if they DO know of us they ARE evolved cause they know better then to let us know they are there. We dont treat our own kind with respect or kindness or equality. They know we will treat a different species worse. Look at this wild untamed land. Look at these people living in harmony and not conquering all around them. The fools! Put them to the sword and this virgin land will be ours for the raping! Cartoon evil indeed. Right? Humans NEVER do anything like that right?
Oh look. my wife and her lover is hiding in the greatest reposotory of knowledge and advancement since the dawn of time. Surrounded by the secrets of the ages thinking they are safe. Thinking i wont dare attack them there. eh we can always build another Alexandria.
Take a good look in the mirror and you tell me that humanity isnt the caricature, the cartoon evil you poo poo all the time. Maybe there aren't Drow and Orcs in RL cause they aren't as one dimensional evil as you think. Maybe the savage humans are locked away here on purpose for that very reason.
With these other races not being as BAD as humanity isn't their getting trapped in here along with us tragic? Isn't the bigotry and hatred they suffer what RL is all about?
What better way to explore the twisted soul then setting up the one everyone just assumes as evil as the underdog. do they fall back on their nature YOU insist all creatures are like... because we know a species all act exactly the same and have the same skills and motivations, etc. Do they fall back on the one dimentional attributes you assigned them? or do they rise above it because they know to give in condemns them here.
Sticking with the Drow for abit (cause its technically on topic) I have always thought of the drow and intelligent and cultured and cunning to some extent. The suave evil british serial killer thing. They're great as an evil race for fantasy worlds because they are so intelligent and cunning and beyond humans. They are better than humans. They have 1000 years to make plans and develop personalities and the like.
BUT
As written they are cartoony 1D evil-for-the-sake-of-evil.
You brought up the Nazis and Raiders of the Lost Ark. Great example. The Nazis in that are perfect 1D cartoon villians. No grey, all black twisted evil.
Not all nazis were evil, guaranteed 90% were just soldiers or people swept up in the moment or afraid for their lives. They never (NEVER) would have tought of themselves as evil or doing bad because people never do. They rationalize and make excuses and justify their actions. Even Hitler probably had a very good explination and motivation in his twisted black little mind to explain his actions.
Now we get to Ravenloft.
Now, sticking with the Drow/Nazi thing most Drow in the Realms and other world would be cartoon propaganda Nazis. They're all bad and evil and therefor you shouldn't feel bad to kill them. When Doctor Jones whips out the machine gun and blows away a trio he isn't killing a three men, he's giving Nazi skum what they deserve.
But in Ravenloft, like any mature world there is more going on. The nazis do not work as well as just rampaging evil madmen taking over Europe. One was following in his father's footsteps cause his old man died in the Great War, the other was conscripted and wanted to be a writer, and the third was unemployed and just looking for three square meals a day. Then they luckily gte stuck on this cushy guard duty in africa, then this American grave robber pumps them full of holes.
That's why orcs and lizardmen don't work, because you cannot attach the same level of humanity and background to them because they are dumb animalistic creatures. They have been since their creation and if you're changing that you're just making a scaley human not a lizardman.
Drow do work if given the proper background because they can be individuals. As a race though the idea falls apart because this giant monolithic evil society doesn't work in realistic worlds. You can have societies that are base around things other cultures consider 'evil' (like spider worship, sentient sacrafice, etc) but a giant twisted civilization that defines itself by being not good and doing evil is unrealistic. At least for an intelligent people who can question things.
Going for an example, lets compare cartoony F-Realms Drow with the Azteks. Now your average Aztrek believed in ritual human sacrafice, it wasn't evil, it was neccisary. You didn't not want the sun not to rise or return from an eclipse, did you? Didn't think so. Now dump the chest-cutter into modern day Ravenloft. Killing spree ensues and we all view him as evil. Does he get his own Domain? He did rip the heart out of a dozen or so people. No, because he did not do anything he believed was evil, nor did he do anything out of the usual for his culture.
Makes you wanter what kind of f*cked-up sh*t an Aztek would have to do to be considered a monster.
Same with the Drow. They're evil so they have to go above and beyond.
Cartoon evil = bad? Not really. Every setting needs sword-fodder, otherwise the game gets bogged down in its own morality at the expense of playability. So what if a Falkovnian footsoldier has a wife and kids to feed -- he's CR 1/2, and his job is to die. If there's a plot hook in there, it's because the DM has a story to tell... but not every villain is a Villain.
Drow, as a race, are no less deserving of a domain than any others; there's nothing particularly "tragic" about a pack of werewolves in Verbrek, for example. As a group, they're as "routine evil" as the DM needs; as individuals, they're as scheming and Evil as necessary. Again, it's a matter of plot device and motivation, macro vs. micro. Most individuals in any Evil race (Drow, excellent example) carry out the schemes of others only because it suits their own personal nefarious ends--but the specifics aren't really important if you don't get the micro view. As a race, they're there to 1) provide storylines and 2) provide experience. The leaders, who are more interesting, are worth more xp.
Even gremishkas can be a fascinating macro and micro-villain, if applied creatively. DoDark lists them with 13 INT... far above average human. They're not necessarily mindless land piranhas. It just depends on how you apply them as story assets.
Lizardmen, orcs, or other non-human races? CoTN: Werebeasts had a race of lizardman-types in the swamps of Souragne, led by a were-croc named Sandoval. Meanwhile, orcs aren't that stylistically different than any degernerate moorlock-type living in caves or sewers -- like the neanderthals in 13th Warrior. Their motivation is alien or even savage, but not dumb or animalistic. It's all in how you use them.
And dragons... I used to agree that dragons, as a colossal cartoon evil were a bit stereotypically fantasy or overpowering for a gothic setting. Smaug for Smaug's sake, feh. However, then came Dragon #313, with a pretty interesting article on dragon psychoses...
Imagine being as powerful and old as some Great Wyrm. Red, green, silver -- whatever -- how many powers checks might you have failed in your lifetime? Arrogant, frustrated, and more than a touch insane; sounds like just about every other darklord out there. A gold dragon can go bad as easily as Elena Fath-hold; the interesting part is why.
Originally posted by The_Jester
They have 1000 years to make plans and develop personalities and the like.
Ill pull a jester and respond to an insignificant part of the post, totally ignoring the point of the post since it was long and thought out and it probably took time to compose.
Elder Drow in Ravenloft are slated at living 550 years, not 1,000
Plus some look beyond the 3 worlds of toril, grayhawk and krynn.
so you have all the scalykind (who are lumped in with lizardmen) mentioned through-out the spelljammer stuff
PLUS you have the multi-verse to draw from.
There are non-evil Drow all over the place.
There are supra-genius lizardmen
The illithids are kind of stuck because they eat the brains of senscients to survive, although in spacejammer a merchant organization was close to creating a brain-nourishment supplement, so you have THAT possibility in the d&d multi-verse, beholders seem to be xeno-phobic to the extreme even going nuts killing their own kind when they see slight variations in the races. I never read anything stating that they were any different anywhere else- in fact the d&d lore i read stated it was believed the beholders were cursed to hate eachother by the gods in all the multi-verse, because IF they did work together they would conquer everything.
So that's like the time lords in dr. who actually stepping in, which they have done only when all of creation was threatened.
And since its known that RL draws from everywhere- you can put in anything you want and it fits for any story- and that's just the DMs backstory- there is no rule anywhere that the players ever be told whats actually going on. The rare party that actually goes and researches would find that out, we were anti- hack and slash and even we didn't go to that extreme. If a plae to research was near by we would stop in, but no go out of the way, unless group survival depended on it.
So. You have a smart lizardman running around. He IS from a more advanced place then this backwater of ravenloft. |He seeths with anger cause everyone assumes he is stupid and they don't even give him a chance to explain himself, so he starts to get more and more defensive. After a few close calls getting attacked just walking up to someone, he falls back on his survival skills, and just like all in RL only the strong survive- the weak are downtrodden and work for those in power- and even that doesn't keep them safe.
On and on- the lizard man can have the most involved background you can think of- but players assume like you do. they just attack him.
in every post on here- the way you talk about lizardmen
Were you talking about someone [A human] who was a minority you'd be one of the worst bigots i ever heard. You really do just lump lizardmen in a certain category. You proudly spout your opinion of what ALL lizardmen are when in fact d&d canon states otherwise on many occasions. Like most bigots- you base your arguments in ignorance.
Now- don't read between MY lines. I'm not calling you a bigot. I just don't know you well enough. If i was around you in real life and you used derogitory statements for different races or groups then in my mind i would begin to form an opinion on the matter.
I'm stating how you come off in the realm of D&D. It makes me cheer the poor lizardmen. It colors my pereption of them- no wonder they react with violence- someone who is as smart as you, even if they come from a less advanced society, is greatly insulted when you assume that just because they are not as technologically advanced they are savage- when they have the intelligence to grasp you are insulting them to their face, and when EVERYONE treats them that way is it any wonder they are at best, curt with you?
Plus you take into account that their chemical make-up makes them prone to fight or flight responses (we humans are too, but its now watered down into fight- or stress), and is it any wonder they fall back on their instincts when an entire village is enraged when all they do is walk into a building.
See? this is where that ounce of realism makes for good fantasy. Our DM would take this into account. NPCs in our world treated lizardmen exactly as you STATE they are. That's why the lizard men would go to the tavern in a large group- saftey in numbers. They go in a large enough group and people would leave them alone. You go up and talk to them they are surley but they don't just blindly attack you.
Walk up and punch one in the jaw and you are in for trouble. Throw someone into their table and you have trouble.
Go up and talk to one- because everyone treats them like s h i t, they are very guarded and think "what the hell is this guy up to" but if you continually see them and never bother them, they never had a problem with you.
The orcs in our non- RL world when we played in one- there were a lot of altercations but that was because no one really tolerated them. People barly tolorated lizardmen and it was a tense situation. But a bunch of orcs drunk off their ass and beling loud and boisterous- well you go up and screw with them- they would attack.
You get the stupid paladin walking in and hed walk up to them and say- you are evil! you shall be slain!
well how do you think they would react? we would curse, and if possible- leave the paladin to clean up his own mess.
What i don't understand is we went by the canon- Darkon was a racial mixing pot. These rare creatures would be in the worst parts of a city. Its totally within reason within the stated canon, and yet you spout grief.
There were none of those creatures in the western core.
In much of the rest of the core any demi-humans with us had a brutal time. even in cities where there were other demi-humans- much like humans- you werent accepted by the demi humans either cause you were not "like them"
Akin to humans persercuting eachother for having different culture or skin color. The only hatreds that ran deeper were those of ANOTHER race.
So our RL was actually MORE unaccepting then your attitude- it was just more realistic give the situation that magic and non humans exist.
I've never debated that your views were WRONG for RL- but (according to my opinon) they come off as very unrefined. Again this is my opinion- they sound predictable, and your group apparently spends more time using flowery language to describe an environment where in ours- if there was an overwhelming element we would all notice- that would be stated-
-As youre walking through the woods all the insects stop making noise.
-There is a woman at the party surrounded by sutors who is ravishing and dressed in splendor (i don't do my DM justice- but you get the idea).
The story would unfold by getting a general description (with what anyones attention would notice)
Then we would state what we wanted to know when asked what each of us does:
asking about certain things- I look for....
, do i see anything that would make me feel nervous or uncomfortable?
I guess we enjoy this style because then we "see" the world through what the character wants to know or do the most.
Ok now a boring story into our groups world of role playing in RL-
A lot of detail was given to the atmosphere- the grittyness, the vicious act- coming across peasnts stoning a young girl because she was with child out of wedlock, and the peasnts happily doling out justice and being unremorseful because what they were doing was so obviously right.
Stepping in to such a situation YOU were the outsider. YOU were in league with evil. YOU were the one that betrayed the gods or the church or the lord because THIS WAS justice. THIS was the way things have 'always' been done.
To us RL was revolting. The only beauty that could be seen was from any who might be with us who were FROM there. WE only saw the madness, the insanity. Th fact that evil temples were the state religion, and good ones were the undergound ones to be ferreted out. The population supported this thanks to the propoganda.
The only player character while i was with the group playing that was ever from RL was MY second character. Creating him, I had hoped to have vast knowledge of the lands and such. But since i wasn't that experienced, and RL is so issolationist AND i was a druid, the DM gave me intimate knowledge of MY forest i grew up in, and the 3 closest settlements, and natural formations. Within two sessions we were well beyond anywhere i had ever been {party's decision}
that isn't the DMs fault- seperatly, we looked at the map, and he showed me everywhere i had been. When i got to that boundry and mentioned it to the party they didn't care- we are going this way- you don't like it- leave they said.
So that's the only story i have from my group to relate about NOT seeing all the crap that is the world RL. The evil, brutal, unforgiving place. If there WAS beauty to be seen we were too colored in our perception to appreciate it. The Druid was just as appaled as everyone else as he got beyond the lands of his sheltered world, so it was just as strange to him. The only thing that was the same were certain trees or plants or wildlife- Everything else was alien.
He was also the only one of that paticular group that didn't view lizardmen as brute savages.
We had a displaced lord/Wizard- so to him they were filthy beasts, no matter what they did.
a Paladin- so they were evil no matter what they did.
A wood elf who we rez'ed in an evil temple and he came back as a two-headed troll (always the way when you roll on a chart.. haha) , so he had his own problems to deal with.
And a warrior from Oriential Adventures who mostly kept to himself due to EVERYTHING being alien to his way of life. He'd
at us constantly for not bathing enough though.The NPC with us was a maimed girl the paladin rescued who was being slashed and brutalized by thugs. The lord bought her from the paladin and had her clean his clothes, cook, fluff his pillows (im not joking. god i hated those frigging pillows, many times he'd abandon us and let us get wounded or hurt so he could go to rescue his precious pillows).
So i didn't see the lizardmen as cartoon evil- the party thought i was wasting my time- but the Lizardmen actually provided some helpful clues and information once i had enough names from different places and knew some who had traveled so that name was known among some of them.
The Druid, incidently liked the lizardmen and halflings because they lived more in harmony with the world then the humans.
He also took the goblins side in a dispute with a settlement- the settlement was spreading like a plague- clear cutting woods, there was filth and disease in the place. The goblins were culling the human herd.
They were also a little too eager to do really horrorable things to the few goblins they did catch. We investigated and found the corrupt humans stole the goblin's queen to draw them out so they could slaughter them. Where the goblins lived they were impeeding progress for human expansion.
So we took the money the humans offered to exterminate the goblins. We then went and discussed things with the goblins, found out what was going on (it was within the realm of my local knowledge and the goblins really had always kept to themselves until recently. Their raids had stopped the loggers so the druids had no problem with them. They were only raiding since the queen was kidnapped.
We found out what was up... went back the the settlement- opened the gates in the middle of the night and let the goblins in.
they got back their queen, culled the herd there a bit, and we made sure they didn't go too crazy. They stole some stuff- like chairs and curtains and such. we took human prisoners, and settled a deal- the humans could only expand so much, the goblins were to be left alone, they would alert the druids if the humans betrayed the treaty, and we left.
We found out years later the goblins had errected statues in our name. They became prosperous, laid dormant 20 years and eventually conquered like 15-20 human settlements- and put them to work growing crops for the goblins.
Eventually the Domain's forces moved in and slaughtered the goblins. (We found out about all this after the fact). The humans apparently found a room of treasure and booty around the statues that was "reserved" for the goblin savoirs, should they ever return. Since these evil despots were obviously the masterminds behind all this- and they rasied the goblins to be their army to further their power and wealth- they were considered enemies of the state and were wanted dead on sight. When hearing this we decided to never go back there.
no good deed goes unpunished i guess.
That was just a little side adventure/ story during one of the down times that wasn't part of the meta plot
Originally posted by daffy72
Be careful- them's is old-school words... see WE think you just need to be evil to be in Ravenloft cause its a prison, but the new view of RL is you can't just be evil, you have the be "gothic and tragic" evil.
Two words: Vlad Drakov.
He's not tragic-- it's the magnitude of his evil that made him so deserving of his place.
madam bovary or however you spell her name.
She no fewer then 60,000 young women slowly tourtured and put to death.
vlad killed 20,000 at one time.
let that sink in.
can you even imagine 60,000 people?
i saw 50,000 at giants stadium once for a billy joel concert.
To think- one woman held such power she had that mady people killed for the simple fact that she thought the blood made her look younger.
A lot of the Darklords are pansys compared to some of the real evil in the world.
Originally posted by daffy72
and the ironic thing is... he's no where near as evil as the real vlad teptis... or the chick that liked to bathe in blood..
madam bovary or however you spell her name.
Bathory. I think Flaubert intended his anti-heroine to be lots of things, but a mass murderer was not one of them.
Also, she is beleved to have only killed 650 women. Bad, but 60,000 is more on the scale of a country's ruler, which she was not. (See http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/bathory/countess_1.html for more)
Vlad Tepes Dracula was reputed to have killed some 20,000 Turks, but it did successfully keep Turkish forces from overrunning his country. Killing 20,000 of his own citizens would've been quite another matter.
Pol Pot, by contrast, is thought to have killed nearly 2 million of his own citizens and Stalin possibly as many as 30 million. Personally, I suspect Drakov is quite capable of death on the scale of Stalin, but his country is far, far smaller, comprising only about 64,000 people according to Gaz2.
[I had a bit less luck finding info on Ivan the Terrible (Google mostly turned up references to the Eisenstein film) but the siege of Novgorod claimed about 3000 lives according to this site and this was far from the only incidence of bloodshed in his life.]
i guess when i first heard 650 people killed by one person.. slowly and hanously.. for some reason i found that appaling
probably as appaling as if most people head 60,000 killed by one... but your right killing only 650 is nothing.
also i know i was using the wrong spelling and said as much. Had i known typing 'bathe blood' in google would bring Bathory up in the first link.. i would have bothered with looking up the correct spelling.
Vlad killed 20,000 of his OWN people to scare off the turks using psychological warfare.. he also used gurellia tactics and germ warfare.
he impalled the sultan's turks in the front and the population of his own capital city behind them...
Greek historian Chalkondyles writes:
"He [the Sultan] marched on for about five kilometers when he saw his men impaled; the Sultan's army came across a field with stakes, about three kilometers long and one kilometer wide. And there were large stakes on which they could see the impaled bodies of men, women, and children, about twenty thousand of them, as they said; quite a spectacle for the Turks and the Sultan himself! The Sultan, in wonder, kept saying that he could not conquer the country of a man who could do such terrible and unnatural things, and put his power and his subjects to such use. He also used to say that this man who did such things would be worthy of more. And the other Turks, seeing so many people impaled, were scared out of their wits. There were babies clinging to their mothers on the stakes, and birds had made nests in their breasts."
obviously Vlad had a few issues that he needed to deal with. I guess his father the dragon didnt give him enough hugs as a child.
Originally posted by daffy72
sorry
i guess when i first heard 650 people killed by one person.. slowly and hanously.. for some reason i found that appaling
probably as appaling as if most people head 60,000 killed by one... but your right killing only 650 is nothing.
Oh, it's not nothing exactly, but Elizabeth just didn't have the resources of our 20th-century killers. To quote Stalin, "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."
And no worries about the spelling. It was probably a bit high-handed of me to mention Flaubert when I've only read *about* Madame Bovary and not read the actual book. ;)
Vlad killed 20,000 of his OWN people to scare off the turks using psychological warfare.. he also used gurellia tactics and germ warfare. he impalled the sultan's turks in the front and the population of his own capital city behind them...
Actually, we may have both dropped the ball on that one-- if this site is correct, Vlad impaled THIRTY thousand of his own people in 1459!
But then again I was probably overhasty in my searches and trying very hard to weed out the less reliable documents.
The site I mention above isn't bad-- it also notes that quite a few stories got started after Vlad's death and are probably not true (the burning alive of the local poor and beggars, for example).
I guess his father the dragon didnt give him enough hugs as a child.
Actually, father Vlad Dracul (Vlad Tepes the Impaler was actually Vlad III) was assassinated along with his son Mircea by the boyars in 1447, which may explain why Vlad Tepes seemed to particularly like impaling boyars.
Interestingly, many Romanians see Vlad Tepes as a ruler who, though harsh (to say the LEAST) also broke the oppressive reign of the boyarsky and kept the Turks out of the country. But then again many ferocious rulers have had their supporters.
And I'd say we were wandering far off Ravenloft territory except that I can see that bits of Vlad Tepes' and Romania's history inspired quite a few domains...
[Edited to fix a messed-up tag.]
Incidentially, since I'm 'canon boy' for the Involution project, its my job to bring the story facts to the DMs attention. We will be getting to the Falkovnia story soon... so when I pointed out how many people and how often Darkov has people impaled he couldnt stop laughing because he pointed out that soon he would run out of people...
Maybe for Involution I'll build a little village where everyone is staked, and the "reason" will be quite insignificant compared to the punishment, just so when people come thru Falk in the game- the "flavor" is there.
I'm sure Vlad lines the roads leading into the cities with impaled prisoners/ enemies too. The book says they hang them on city walls and let them rot. how lovely.
Barovia- 27,000
Borca- 34,200
Darkon- 117,300
Dementlieu- 13,600
Falkovnia- 64,300 er... 64,299... 64,298- Damn you Darkov!
Forlorn- Druids and Forfurmaxians- app. 500
Hazlan- 26,100
Invidia- 6,900
Kartakass- 4,500
Larmordia- 3,200
Mordent- 5,500
Nova Vassa- 67,700
Richemulot- 45,300
Sithicus-4,300
Tepest-15,500
Valachan-19,100
Vechor- 15,900
Verbrek- 800
Ohhhh there are a lot more then I realized in the core- 471,700
And even though people don't live everywhere in the core we have 22,500 square miles. So 20 people per square mile.
Thats just an average- they would be clustered together near the cities, and like one cottage per. the father you go out, and then virgin wilderness.
That's too obvious, too overt. Being a darklord is all about being particularly evil, in a particular way. Not necessarily Gothic, but definately particular.
Susan Smith didn't kill hordes of people, but many still find her murder of her own children particularly horrifying.
I'm not too paticlarlly fond of the modern day mind set of clamping imagination down in a vice with rules and regulations destroying what was always the most, free, open creative game experience we have.
If it makes for a good story, AND its something your group of players appreciate I say go for it...
If you're players don't care if 95% of the Darklords get wiped- if its still RL to them- then its still RL.
We are still laughing at whoever yelled on the Karg boards "That I DARE not call it Ravenloft"
Oh.
I DARE alright. If it has Strahd, mists, domains and decent into evil (power checks and domains/pocket domains forming), and evil having the upper hand and the hero facing insurmountable odds- then its RL baby!
If the darklords get wacked- its RL with new darklords
If the Arak are still Drow it's RL still with a Drow kingdom.
Makes no diff.
One RL isn't anymore right then another, no matter what the next gen insists.
1) Make a darklord, then make a domain around him/her/it.
2) Make a domain, then put in a darklord.
3) Make an adventure, make the villain a darklord, make a domain
I think different domains were made in different ways. Then I think, regardless of which of those methods were used (except 3, which almost always leads to F below), each writer focused most on one of the following goals:
A) Danger level
B) Gothic-ness
C) Scariness factor
D) Emulation of a particular story concept or genre
E) Love of a particular monster type, environment type, or aesthetic thing
F) Fitting a particular adventure.
3 and F would definately be the methods for Odiare (which was just made for "The Created") and that domain the Egyptian priestess woman gets after fleeing Kartakass in one of the old modules.
But anyway, I think after most of the domains were made, they seemed a little inconsistant and jumbled, and the geography didn't make a whole lot of sense (like G'Hennans starving when they were right next door to people that weren't), so things were revised to fit a more consistant vision, in theory. (Though I don't think Ravenloft's designers have ever agreed on anything in terms of how the campaign should feel unless you count Tracy and Laura Hickman as being a Ravenloft design team.)
Anyway, my theory is that instead of trying to go back and retcon all of the domains into fitting a very specific theme ("Ravenloft is Gothic horror and all darklords are extremely evil but in a very Gothic sense"), maybe instead the theme of Ravenloft itself should be broadened to "fantasy horror" instead of "very grim, very evil, Gothic horror with fantasy elements and a very strong focus on a few key people".
*shrug*
You just don't get it!
If you add rational thoughts to this you'll kill all the meaningless debate!
What's wrong with you?
:D
I don't think being "more evil than the average of your race" is a requirement for darklordship, either. What's important is that you had a chance to turn away from darkness, but did not. That seems to be one of the most important requirements.
For instance, Strahd had a chance to let his brother taste the pleasures of love, but he chose to make a pact with Death to steal his bride instead.
Adam had a chance to grow up above his "monster" nature, but instead, he maimed Elise and chose to spend the rest of his existence pointlessly tormenting his creator.
Harkon Lucas was a wolfwere born with human traits with him. He might have let these traits flourish, turning away from the evil of his kin. Instead, he seflishly decided to rule both worlds.
Death was Azalin's most successful clone. He could have realised his master's folly during the Requiem, but chose to listen to his thirst for power instead. He now is convinced he is the most powerful being of the undead realm, only he knows deep inside this is a lie.
Etc, etc. I think even Vlad Drakov fits in these lines.
Of course, even that is not sufficient. Like Rucht said, you have to be particularily interesting to be chosen by the Dark Powers. It seems the DPs think a lot like Ravenloft designers (coincidence?;) ). They pick only the most intriguing and promising of villains.
As for the whole race, argument... Frankly, I could see an orc darklord, a lizard-man darklord, a dragon darklord, even a drow darklord, no problem. If he fits in my personal criterias of "good" darklords, I think it could be quite interesting. I do agree that your average monster wouldn't do, though.
Originally posted by Belac
....maybe instead the theme of Ravenloft itself should be broadened to "fantasy horror"....
Good idea; in fact, it already is. See the cover of Domains of Dread for one example.