However, just yesterday (while my computer was offline) I was gleaning in the Age of Mortals and I read about how Sargonnas isn't too pleased with the minotaur race. Sure they have conquered Silvanesti, but they do not do their patron much homage anymore, preferring to listen to the Cult of the Forerunners. They also have not done anything too impressive, just attacked the softest target Ansalon had. As well, they have abandoned the rites and rituals which would ensure that they remain strong and that the strong would rule over them.
So suddenly, the Cult of the Bloody Condor makes much more sense. Sargonnas didn't conquer Silvanesti, but he gave strength to the minotaurs who did. The elves on the other hand, lack strength but are currently being forged anew in the desert. I can just imagine their skinny noddle little girl arms and legs becoming sinew and muscle and their hearts becoming harder and more pragmatic. Then I begin to wonder if it is just a coincidence that the condor is a desert vulture.
The way I figure it, Sargonnas is going to play both races off each other. To the elves he offers the strength and power he gave the minotaurs, to be feared and crush their enemies. To be his chosen. To the minotaurs, he will teach the lesson that he is not to be taken so lightly.
I have to admit, I do enjoy the imagery of an elf dressed in a cloak of red feathers with three or four minotaurs lying bleeding on the ground around him. I also wonder what a Sargonnas worshipping culture of elves would look like when they retake Silvanesti. It would probably be a nice blend of the minotaur and the elf, making Sargasanti not much different than it is now after the elves move back in.
edit: Just figured out that this was fan material...:P
Originally posted by darthsylver
Where is info on the cult located? Link please. I looked on the nexus and could not find it? Of course it may be somewhere else.
Ferratus just made it up.
It's just an idea he's working on. heh"Burning with rage over the loss and destruction of their ancient homeland, some elves are secretly turning to the worship of the God of Vengence, forming the Cult of the Bloody Condor, a band of dark warrior elves, dedicated to the reestablishment of a strong elven nation, no matter what the cost or who is harmed along the way."
That's why I was surprised to see elves worshipping Sargonnas. I would have thought that the elves would have been the last to worship this diety, given that he is actively behind the invasion of Silvanesti. But rereading other stuff in the entry, and how Sargonnas really wasn't responsible for despoiling the elves' homeland (just his chosen people) it all sort of falls into place.
I am interested in writing up this cult for the next Tobril, though I think we'll probably see an official version of this cult in the Holy Order of the Stars book.
Hmm... ponder... stroke chin in thoughtful manner... hmm... yams...
I think a lot of people consider Sargonnas to be the god of minotaurs. While he is a god of minotaurs (and the primary one to boot), he is by no means the only one (i.e. Kiri-Jolith).
Sargonnas is moreso a god of vengeance - a trait that most all mortal races share (perhaps less so in kender). Yes, minotaurs are his favored people, but they are not his only people. Elves, dwarves, humans, ogres, etc. etc. can all worship Sargonnas.
It doesn't surprise me that a group of elves would have vengeance in their hearts after the events in the War of Souls trilogy. Nor does it surprise me that the god of vengeance and wrath would take advantage of this.
Good luck on your write-up, Terry. Good eye!
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I think that a lot of people find it surprising that non-minotaur races can be followers of Sargonnas. Terry, I'm not saying you fall into this category, only that this is a generalization I see among some fans.
Yeah, well Sargonnas has been pretty much ignored by everyone except Richard A. Knaak. Other than in connection to the minotaurs, he hasn't been portrayed much except as Takhisis' second fiddle.
So when the Minotaurs invaded Silvanesti, I expected Sargonnas to be benefitting and spurring on the invasion. If Sargonnas is personally benefitting from the elves being bent over a barrel then the elves wouldn't turn to his worship to fight against himself.
So thus it fits together much nicer if the minotaurs (at least the minotaurs in Silvanesti) do not pay much heed to Sargonnas except as a diety of tradition, and the conquest of Silvanesti is a triumph of the minotaurs rather than of Sargonnas himself.
Or at least that Sargonnas has bigger plans than caring if the minotaurs keep the Silvanesti nation, and would give it back to the elves if they become strong enough to reclaim it.
I'm inspired. I see on the horizon, while the side of Good looks to rebuild its strength, tend to the stranded elven nations and Solamnia, etc; The side of evil will also be quarrelling for dominance. I mean, let's look at this..
Without Takhisis, and discounting Nuitari (who will likely remain focused on the WoHS), there are 5 evil deities: Sargonnas, Morgion, Chemosh, Hiddukel, Zeboim. I can see a lot of places these gods would like to get involved, and a lot of place where they'll try to use their influence to gain power. Most importantly, I see some intense struggle within the Knights of Neraka, where I think a new patron deity might appear - Probably Sargonnas, but who's to say? Targonne reminded me of a Hiddukel worshipper, and he was Lord of the Knight. With recent association to the dead, it's not a big step to make it to the undead and Chemosh. Zeboim maintains a foothold as the mother of Ariakan, the founding member and possibly the greatest leader they had. And Morgion... Well, I think Morgion's going to show everyone a new face, because I think he may very well have engineered the entire Chaos War and Fifth Age. But that's another story.
And that's not even talking about Sable and Gellidus.
Point is, evil looks like it's at a very pivotal point, and I think this bit with the Elves worshipping Sargonnas just adds to it. It's going to be quite, quite interesting...
Originally posted by The Udjat
Without Takhisis, and discounting Nuitari (who will likely remain focused on the WoHS), there are 5 evil deities: Sargonnas, Morgion, Chemosh, Hiddukel, Zeboim. I can see a lot of places these gods would like to get involved, and a lot of place where they'll try to use their influence to gain power. Most importantly, I see some intense struggle within the Knights of Neraka, where I think a new patron deity might appear - Probably Sargonnas, but who's to say?
Out of the five, Sargonnas is the most powerful. That's not to say that the other evil deities aren't trying to be the head of the evil pantheon, just that Sargonnas is quite a contender.
The god I would pay most attention to beyond Sargonnas is Chemosh. He's probably having a field day after the War of Souls.
Well, I think Morgion's going to show everyone a new face, because I think he may very well have engineered the entire Chaos War and Fifth Age. But that's another story.
I'd be interested to hear the theory behind this.
BTW, Targonne would be Lord of the Night (no "K").
Point is, evil looks like it's at a very pivotal point, and I think this bit with the Elves worshipping Sargonnas just adds to it. It's going to be quite, quite interesting...
Personally, I think you can throw the stereotypes out the window. It's a brave new world that we're entering...
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I'd be interested to hear the theory behind this.
It goes back to one of the Graygem threads. It was brought up that Reorx (as Dougan) admitted that Morgion was actually the one that talked Chislev into asking for the gem, and not Hiddukel as everyone assumed. This has been on the backburner of my mind since I read it, as I hadn't heard much about Morgion at that point. I still haven't, but his DLCS entry gave me some more clues - Namely that he's known to keep all of his plans secret, from everyone, including most of his own followers. He hasn't got much in the way of followers, but I tack on a 'that we know of' to that. Morgion is an incredibly secretive individual. Here's how the theory I'm working on pans out:
Morgion coaxes Chislev into asking for the Graygem, in essence engineering that whole ploy. The reason could be that he remains somewhat loyal to the Father of All and Nothing, since it has been said that he enjoyed being the graygem for a time. I think you proposed the idea that Morgion was the most loyal to Chaos, Dragonhelm, but I could be totally wrong - anyway, it's another good theory to work into this.
But it could also be that Morgion was just planning to increase his power - Maybe, after all, Chaos did not want to be wholly trapped inside the Gem, and Morgion knew that he would be, but felt no inclination to warn him of this. By provoking the creation of the Graygem, he set the whole world down the path to the Chaos war. Perhaps he even knew of Takhisis plan to steal the world at 'the right time', and so he made sure that this time happened. Not to help Takhisis, ofcourse, but to take her out of power, because he knew that he could not reach his full power with her around, and by letting her steal the world, he effectively rendered the entire pantheon angry with her. Clearing the way, so to speak.
Now, he might not have expected the world to be so hard to find. He might truly have risked a great deal in letting Takhisis get away. He might, also, have taken his own steps to ensure that he could influence the world at this point - This is just occurring to me now, but Sable is in many ways a great servant to Morgion, or could be, what with the way she disfigures and corrupts life and her surroundings. Takhisis used Skie as an agent. Why not Morgion use Sable? But he doesn't have to, ofcourse. The important part is that the world got found, and Takhisis got killed - And Paladine, furthermore, was made a mortal.
This all works obscenely to Morgion's benefit. With the biggest power of evil and the biggest power of good gone, 3 of the dragon overlords out of the picture, the world is quite ripe for turmoil and, furthermore, his control. He'll have to keep clever and secretive, probably try to play the biggest evil deities against each other (It is not unforeseeable that Sargonnas, Chemosh, and Hiddukel have some power struggles against each other), and meanwhile build his forces. Everyone discounts Morgion. Everyone overlooks him as a powerful force. This can only work to his advantage.
It's an idea I like, anyway. It's just as likely the Morgion doesn't care a damn bit about what goes on, and is just in there for what kicks he can get. But this doesn't strike me as the thoughts of an evil deity. I think Morgion has an agenda. And I think everyone's going to be surprised.
Another thing I just thought of. Reading Morgion's entry made me convinced that he's a Chaotic Evil deity, yet his entry is Neutral Evil. Further evidence of a mask to the world, I think.
Then again, I could be giving Morgion way too much credit.
Ah well.BTW, Targonne would be Lord of the Night (no "K").
Whoops. Yeah, that's a typo.
Amusingly enough, the head of Morgion's clerics is called a Nightlord, I think. Something else to ponder...
Originally posted by The Udjat
Amusingly enough, the head of Morgion's clerics is called a Nightlord, I think. Something else to ponder...
I think that's the name of any head of one of the Evil Orders. Chemosh, Morgion, Hiddukel, Zeboim and Sargonnas all have Nightlords, just as Gilean, Zivilyn, et al all have Starmasters.
Somewhat generic, but there you have it. The Dark Knights borrowed the title from the Order of Takhisis and used it for their own, which is where Targonne gets it (he was head of the Skull Knights).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Somewhat generic, but there you have it. The Dark Knights borrowed the title from the Order of Takhisis and used it for their own, which is where Targonne gets it (he was head of the Skull Knights).
The Lord of the Night title is for the head of the Knights of Takhisis in general, and is not specific to the Skull Knights, IIRC. I *think* there is a Nightlord title for the Skull Knights somewhere, but I don't remember for certain.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The Lord of the Night title is for the head of the Knights of Takhisis in general, and is not specific to the Skull Knights, IIRC. I *think* there is a Nightlord title for the Skull Knights somewhere, but I don't remember for certain.
Well, the head of the Skull Knights was a Nightlord in DoSF. Since Targonne was the head of the Skull Knights before he became the Lord of the Night, it is safe to assume that he was a Nightlord also.
Originally posted by The Udjat
I think you proposed the idea that Morgion was the most loyal to Chaos, Dragonhelm, but I could be totally wrong - anyway, it's another good theory to work into this.
I’m not sure that I came up with that. I’m not sure who did. Matthew Martin?
This is just occurring to me now, but Sable is in many ways a great servant to Morgion, or could be, what with the way she disfigures and corrupts life and her surroundings.
You know, I had not really considered the idea of any of the dragon overlords or dragonlords becoming a servant of a god in the post-WoS era. They’re so powerfully tough, after all, that they almost consider themselves to be gods.
Yet, with the promise of greater power, one never knows.
This all works obscenely to Morgion's benefit. With the biggest power of evil and the biggest power of good gone, 3 of the dragon overlords out of the picture, the world is quite ripe for turmoil and, furthermore, his control. He'll have to keep clever and secretive, probably try to play the biggest evil deities against each other (It is not unforeseeable that Sargonnas, Chemosh, and Hiddukel have some power struggles against each other), and meanwhile build his forces. Everyone discounts Morgion. Everyone overlooks him as a powerful force. This can only work to his advantage.
The way I see it, Sargonnas is going to be working on conquering Krynn. He’s taking advantage of the minotaur invasion, and finding followers amongst other races as well.
Chemosh is having a party right now, gathering all the lingering undead from the War of Souls into his service. I see the Lord of Bone as the big contender at this time, and a force to be reckoned with. Even Sargonnas should take notice.
Hiddukel is playing both ends against each other. My theory is that his performance in front of the other gods where he says that the balance must be maintained was all a ploy by him to get not only his biggest rival (Takhisis) out of the picture, but also his biggest adversary (Paladine). He’s probably laughing his rear off at the moment at the comedy of it all. Now the great trickster is going to manipulate things behind the scenes.
I’m not quite certain what Morgion is doing right now, but you’re right – don’t underestimate him. He was, after all, one of the major evil deities in The Legend of Huma.
When I played in my post-Cataclysm game, Morgion was a big focus. While the gods had supposedly left the world, Morgion’s forces were on the move. It makes sense to a degree, as there was tons of plague in those days.
I think Morgion has an agenda. And I think everyone's going to be surprised.
Agreed. The focus right now is on Sargonnas, Chemosh, and Nuitari. The god of disease, pestilence, and waste cannot be far behind.
Thanks for sharing your theory.
Thank you or sharing yours, as well. All of you. That's what I feel these boards are great for - sharing and developing ideas. Like the Cult of the Bloody Condor, which I should let this thread get back to.I wish I'd read the AoM entry, but I don't have the book yet. It does have a Dark Sun-esque vibe to it, I think. Desert elves, angry and vengeful... yeah, sounds familiar.
I wonder how the plainsmen are reacting to this.However, if I was going to lay money on a god that the Knights of Nereka are following these days, I would say Chemosh. Mina's Kiss is obviously an artifact of Chemosh and of the gods he has the biggest promise to give Mina... the promise (which he has no intention of keeping) of ressurecting Takhisis.
As for the alleged loyalty to Chaos by Morgion, I believe I can take credit for that. I've always thought that Morgion being a god of disease and decay was basically a god of entropy. Thus, he is firmly in support of father Chaos who continually strives to unmake the universe (or used to). That's why he was involved in the creation of the graygem
Originally posted by ferratus
Actually, I didn't make it up. The Cult of the Bloody Condor is mentioned under Sargonnas' entry in the Age of Mortals book, page 191.
"Burning with rage over the loss and destruction of their ancient homeland, some elves are secretly turning to the worship of the God of Vengence, forming the Cult of the Bloody Condor, a band of dark warrior elves, dedicated to the reestablishment of a strong elven nation, no matter what the cost or who is harmed along the way."
That's why I was surprised to see elves worshipping Sargonnas. I would have thought that the elves would have been the last to worship this diety, given that he is actively behind the invasion of Silvanesti. But rereading other stuff in the entry, and how Sargonnas really wasn't responsible for despoiling the elves' homeland (just his chosen people) it all sort of falls into place.
I am interested in writing up this cult for the next Tobril, though I think we'll probably see an official version of this cult in the Holy Order of the Stars book.
The original idea is kinda based upon the Viking "Bloody Eagle" method of torture/killing their enemies.
And I liked the irony of elves using the very same god once worshipped by their enemies.
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
The original idea is kinda based upon the Viking "Bloody Eagle" method of torture/killing their enemies.
Just as long as I don't actually recognize the vikings or the rituals in there. I don't want to see any longships, beards, horned helmets, runes or ribcages being spread. I really don't like transplanting earth cultures.
Though I would like to see the Cult of the Bloody Condor leave a lot of corpses bleeding into the desert sands due the infamous massacre of the desert tribesmen. Then there will be a lot of Condors following in their wake.
Originally posted by ferratus
Just as long as I don't actually recognize the vikings or the rituals in there. I don't want to see any longships, beards, horned helmets, runes or ribcages being spread. I really don't like transplanting earth cultures.
Though I would like to see the Cult of the Bloody Condor leave a lot of corpses bleeding into the desert sands due the infamous massacre of the desert tribesmen. Then there will be a lot of Condors following in their wake.
*chuckles and patpats*
Have no fear, ferratus, there was no plan to have them grow beards, use runes, wear horned helmets... they might spread a few ribcages, haven't really decided yet. As I said, the concept came from the "bloody eagle" not from a "Ooooo, look, there used to be this ancient group of Norse Elves who ran around with huge battleaxes, drinking the blood of their enemies, blah blah blah, so I'm gonna transplant it completely."
Think of them as a living Wild Hunt... sort of swooping down out of nowhere on minotaurs wandering through the forest, leaving behind bodies to act as warnings to other minotaurs.
Christopher
God, that's cool. I can't wait to get my campaign up to the current timeline.
The Cult of the Bloody Condor looks like a great deal of fun.Originally posted by Stormprince
As I said, the concept came from the "bloody eagle" not from a "Ooooo, look, there used to be this ancient group of Norse Elves who ran around with huge battleaxes, drinking the blood of their enemies, blah blah blah, so I'm gonna transplant it completely."
Or warrior-poets. They can't be warrior-poets, either.
Though actually, all of the above sounds pretty good to me...
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Stormprince
*chuckles and patpats*
Have no fear, ferratus, there was no plan to have them grow beards, use runes, wear horned helmets... they might spread a few ribcages, haven't really decided yet.
If you are undecided as of yet, I'd prefer if you didn't use the specific spread eagle ritual. Ritual killing though is certainly something to be approved of. Er... among the Cult of the Bloody Conder that is. ;) Of course, I can't tell you what to do, but I do indeed make my preferences known for organically made in-world cultures. I feel that if someone wants to roleplay with the great figures of history, one should run a historical earth campaign, not rely on duplicates and pale imitations. Part of the fun of campaign settings is creating the new cultures whole cloth. They are generally the more popular cultures in various settings anyway.
Think of them as a living Wild Hunt... sort of swooping down out of nowhere on minotaurs wandering through the forest, leaving behind bodies to act as warnings to other minotaurs.
Is there still a lot of warrior groups in the forest, or have the minotaurs largely pacified the place? Will we see other groups besides the Bloody Condors?
Rite of Liellag
This gruesome act is performed by the Sargonnas-worshipping elves of the Cult of the Bloody Condor. When disposing of a victim, the elves fianhthaid the rhunnaur and gaiechleach sliansiannochadh. Then, they aoidheil cuchurhagodod.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Here's a flavorful element which steals absolutely nothing from Earth history whatsoever.
Rite of Liellag
This gruesome act is performed by the Sargonnas-worshipping elves of the Cult of the Bloody Condor. When disposing of a victim, the elves fianhthaid the rhunnaur and gaiechleach sliansiannochadh. Then, they aoidheil cuchurhagodod.
Sounds Celtic to me. I don't like it. ;)
Ah Cam, you never fail to resort to sarcasm.
Originally posted by ferratus
If you are undecided as of yet, I'd prefer if you didn't use the specific spread eagle ritual. Ritual killing though is certainly something to be approved of. Er... among the Cult of the Bloody Conder that is. ;) Of course, I can't tell you what to do, but I do indeed make my preferences known for organically made in-world cultures. I feel that if someone wants to roleplay with the great figures of history, one should run a historical earth campaign, not rely on duplicates and pale imitations. Part of the fun of campaign settings is creating the new cultures whole cloth. They are generally the more popular cultures in various settings anyway.
Is there still a lot of warrior groups in the forest, or have the minotaurs largely pacified the place? Will we see other groups besides the Bloody Condors?
Oh drat... than we can't use elves... because ya know, those were taken from earth cultures... or swords, or axes... or crap, even bows and arrows!
*laughs* Sorry, that's a bit snarky... but basically, it all boils down to the fact that the Bloody Condors are effectively elven terrorists on a "bloody" crusade to avenge themselves and the forest for the minotaur occupation. They operate through vegenance, pain, and terror... take two eyes for the cost of one eye, take every tooth for the loss of a tooth... the use of the "bloody eagle" was part of them paying homage to the god they now follow... a way of showing the minotaurs, "Hey look! Your god... the one you turned your backs on... guess what, he now supports us..."
It's not so much as derrivative as it is of paying a certain homage to some small aspects of ancient cultures that are often overlooked or romanticized. Honestly, how many people do you know can actually tell you what the "Bloody Eagle" is without prompting?
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
Oh drat... than we can't use elves... because ya know, those were taken from earth cultures... or swords, or axes... or crap, even bows and arrows!
Someday, I'm going to create a fantasy setting that is completely divorced from earth technology. That'll be sweet.
*laughs* Sorry, that's a bit snarky... but basically, it all boils down to the fact that the Bloody Condors are effectively elven terrorists on a "bloody" crusade to avenge themselves and the forest for the minotaur occupation. They operate through vegenance, pain, and terror... take two eyes for the cost of one eye, take every tooth for the loss of a tooth... the use of the "bloody eagle" was part of them paying homage to the god they now follow... a way of showing the minotaurs, "Hey look! Your god... the one you turned your backs on... guess what, he now supports us..."
Yep, I like all of that, with the exception of the bloody eagle sacrifice. See, that gets me thinking about the Norse and I stop thinking about the Silvanesti elves. If I read something that reminds me of the Arabs, I stop thinking about the humans of Khur or the Plains of Dust. My suspension of disbeleif snaps, because I recognize something that is out of place. Why are the Arabs there, with all of their numerous cultural legacies, when there are none of the events in their history, and the surrounding cultures, not there?
It's not so much as derrivative as it is of paying a certain homage to some small aspects of ancient cultures that are often overlooked or romanticized. Honestly, how many people do you know can actually tell you what the "Bloody Eagle" is without prompting?
Me.
Originally posted by ferratus
Ah Cam, you never fail to resort to sarcasm.
It's the lowest form of wit, yes. But the point of this is, history offers such a wonderful resource for our fantasy that to deny it as an influence is to start down a slippery slope that ends up with such convoluted and alien settings as Talislanta and Jorune, where nothing is based on Earth history or culture, it's all invented, there aren't any real anchors for the imagination and the bulk of the flavor hinges on not knowing what anything is.
I'm constantly borrowing from history for my games, and with only a very small amount of spit and polish (and with the proviso that it actually make some form of sense, all things considered) the results are usually rewarding.
It's not as if Dragonlance is without is derivative content to begin with!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It's the lowest form of wit, yes. But the point of this is, history offers such a wonderful resource for our fantasy that to deny it as an influence is to start down a slippery slope that ends up with such convoluted and alien settings as Talislanta and Jorune, where nothing is based on Earth history or culture, it's all invented, there aren't any real anchors for the imagination and the bulk of the flavor hinges on not knowing what anything is.
The slippery slope argument is a fallacy, you should know that. ;)
Obviously Dragonlance does have some historical influences. That's partly necessary (to work with D&D mechanics) and partly because history forms our opinions on how human beings should act in any given situation.
However, I don't believe it should be encouraged to simply palagerize specific historical figures, cultures, or religions. The simple fact is because:
1) Most settings do so, including the Forgotten Realms. We cannot compete with the Forgotten Realms by duplicating what they are doing.
2) Simply copying from history has real thematic issues. The figures, cultures and religions that arose, arose because world history is an exercise of millions and billions of minds working on the same problem. You cannot stick Aztecs and Arabs on the same continent without a lot of problems. If you try to work out those problems, then eventually the cultures fade away to something new. Try it sometime and make up a world history that has the Aztecs and Arabs live beside each other for 1000 years. Eventually neither culture will resemble their earth counterpart.
3) How in the heck do you expect me to respect the cultures, religions and historical figures copied from history? Their triumphs and hardships will always be more interesting because they were real. Joan of Arc is ten times cooler than WoS Mina, and Mina only really became interesting after her god died and she diverged from Joan of Arc's shadow. Ghengis Khan will always be cooler than his pale imitation, Yamun Kahan.
My idea was that the elves would use the "bloody condor" as a calling card, a way of letting the minotaurs know that the "random" murders and disappearances of minotaurs in the forest were not quite so random at all. It has a quite obvious connection with the god, Sargonnas, with the bloody condor connotations, as well as being something that most elves would never think of doing - torturing an enemy to death in one of the most painful and gruesome ways possible.
Are there other, equally effective ways of doing this? Sure, flailing the skin from the minotaur's body until it creates a ptagia suspending them from a tree... that's an option.
The idea here was to give this cult a distinctive flavor and edge that was theirs, separating them from other cults or organizations. The bloody eagle is what my inspiration was, a play on words while combining it with Sargonnas.
I will say this... this discussion has definitely helped me to solidify a few more things in my mind 'bout them *grins crookedly* I'm thinkin' that their leader wears a helmet made from the skull of a minotaur... horns and all >;o)
Christopher
Originally posted by ferratus
The slippery slope argument is a fallacy, you should know that. ;)
Only if I'm using it as a logical argument without substantiation. A slippery slope is a metaphor for a psychological event that has proven instances in almost every avenue of political or social debate, regardless of how it looks on paper as a raw form of logic (which is where the fallacy lies).
Behind every popularly reviled fallacy is a psychological or sociopolitical truism trying to get noticed.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Only if I'm using it as a logical argument without substantiation. A slippery slope is a metaphor for a psychological event that has proven instances in almost every avenue of political or social debate, regardless of how it looks on paper as a raw form of logic (which is where the fallacy lies).
Ah, but look at how you used the slippery slope argument. You said that someone deliberately avoiding the use of historical references in fantasy materials will create something that is bizarre and unrecognizable.
I did it however with Southern Ergoth and Kharolis, simply taking what was already there and working out a plausible history of events. It didn't instantly (or even gradually) become a bizzare and alien place to adventure where nothing was recognizable.
So yeah, it was a logical argument without substantation, as you put it.
Originally posted by ferratus
Ah, but look at how you used the slippery slope argument. You said that someone deliberately avoiding the use of historical references in fantasy materials will create something that is bizarre and unrecognizable.
Your objections to the inclusion of historical drop-in elements carry with them the potency to take the eradication of those elements to their eventual conclusion without any means of determining where you would stop. That's the problem with it.
Your Kharolis materials have no end of historical and cultural resonances with Earth history, even if you've filed off serial numbers. I don't have a problem with it, and as I said, so long as you can create a plausible environment for the inclusion of those elements, why not use them?
There are some bizarre parallels here to the other inclusive arguments you've been making on the other threads, too. Don't use historical influences, but do include everything that's in the Monster Manual. Hmm.
Cheersm
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Your Kharolis materials have no end of historical and cultural resonances with Earth history, even if you've filed off serial numbers. I don't have a problem with it, and as I said, so long as you can create a plausible environment for the inclusion of those elements, why not use them?
*grins* Okay, which cultures are they then? ;)
Is Dicator Tdarnak Theodoric? Kublai Khan? Perhaps Cortez or some other spanish governor? Conan? Are the Ergothians of the Dominion of Daltigoth Aztecs? Chinese? Byzantine? Roman? African? Aquilonia?
It is the archetype of an ancient empire ruled over by a barbaric king. It isn't a specific culture. Sorry.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
There are some bizarre parallels here to the other inclusive arguments you've been making on the other threads, too. Don't use historical influences, but do include everything that's in the Monster Manual. Hmm.
Give me a reason why including orcs clashes with the rest of the setting or snaps my suspension of disbelief and I will happily go along with it.
edit: To remove the negative clause, but you get the point.
Originally posted by ferratus
Give me a reason why not including orcs clashes with the rest of the setting or snaps my suspension of disbelief and I will happily go along with it.
Not including orcs doesn't clash with the setting. But I don't think that's what you were trying to say, here.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
All right, then, so give us the reason why orcs clash with the setting or effects in any way the mood and themes set for Dragonlance? I'm curious as well.
Why does there have to be orcs?
Just a bit ago, the arguement was not to include real world influences, to develop something new and unique culturally. Orcs fall into that category, don't you think? Why do they have to be there? The setting works just fine without them. Don't need to have them as cannon fodder for a character to slice his or her way through 10,000 of them at a single time, do we? ;)
Christopher
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
All right, then, so give us the reason why orcs clash with the setting or effects in any way the mood and themes set for Dragonlance? I'm curious as well.
I didn't say that. My point is that leaving them out doesn't do anything bad, and therefore if nothing is intrinsically broken by their absence, fine.
Ultimately, this is such a ridiculously petty debate - if you wants orcs in your Dragonlance campaign, there are no Canon Police waiting to stop you. But if you expect others who don't share your interest in introducing orcs to Krynn to do so, you're going to be disappointed. There won't be any orcs, lycanthropes, or drow elves in published DL product. That's about all there is to it.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ultimately, this is such a ridiculously petty debate - if you wants orcs in your Dragonlance campaign, there are no Canon Police waiting to stop you.
Yeah, but the debate isn't really about orcs for me. It is about the graygem and its role in the campaign setting, and what we are trying to accomplish with the monsters we exclude.
See, take the hobgoblins. Same CR, same role in the setting. In fact, the characters of King Obould Many-Arrows and that unnamed Hobgoblin general in "Draconian Measures" are pretty much identical.
So in the end it all seems completely pointless. I want to put some point into it.
For another example, let's take Paul B. Thompson's shape-changing cat people. Why are they there in official products, but lyncanthropes banned?
Or why are the subterranian elves in Riverwind the Plainsmen there, and constant hints of an underdark (what with the rock eating Urkhan worms, tunnels under Nereka and Balifor et all) but we don't have drow?
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Ultimately, this is such a ridiculously petty debate - if you wants orcs in your Dragonlance campaign, there are no Canon Police waiting to stop you.
"Silly" is the word I would use, Cam. :P
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, but the debate isn't really about orcs for me. It is about the graygem and its role in the campaign setting, and what we are trying to accomplish with the monsters we exclude.
What I will give you is that the Greygem is a tool the DM can use to add anything he wants to Dragonlance. So in that sense, no monster is truly excluded.
It's the Great Excuse. ;)
For another example, let's take Paul B. Thompson's shape-changing cat people. Why are they there in official products, but lyncanthropes banned?
Because they are shapechangers, not lycanthropes. It's a small difference, but enough of one to justify their existence.
As for the subterranean elves (Lucanesti?)...blech. :P
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Because they are shapechangers, not lycanthropes. It's a small difference, but enough of one to justify their existence.
As for the subterranean elves (Lucanesti?)...blech. :P
Okay then, let me tell you a story.
Back during the days of the Ogre Empires, Habbakuk the lord of all beasts was distressed at the plight of humanity, enslaved as creatures of burden. Thus, during the rebellion he blessed a small number of humans with bestial power. Some gained the strength of the bear, others the ferocity of the boar, or the grace of tiger. Still others gained the stealth of a rat or the cunning of the wolf.
Over the centuries however, the clans of the rat and the wolf have drifted away into evil veiwing humans as their cattle on which to feed. The tiger clan has become self-obsessed and narcistic, caring only for their own pleasure. Only the Boar and the Bear clans continue to follow the ways of Habbakuk.
So I've given you a bunch of shapechangers that resemble lyncanthropes in every way, but are not affected by the phases of the moon nor pass lyncanthropy onto others. Would you be pleased to see such a monster in an official dragonlance product?
Originally posted by ferratus
So I've given you a bunch of shapechangers that resemble lyncanthropes in every way, but are not affected by the phases of the moon nor pass lyncanthropy onto others. Would you be pleased to see such a monster in an official dragonlance product?
Honestly, no.
I was merely giving the explanation as to why the Karnuthians (or whatever they're called) are a viable monster race for DL. Technically, since they are not lycanthropes, they're allowable. Now, whether I agree with having non-lycanthropic shapeshifters or not is another story.
I've discussed this in private before, and I'm of two minds on the issue. On the one hand, there is no real reason to exclude them. Since they are not lycanthropes and they have made an appearance in a novel, I would say that they're allowable.
Now, do I personally feel they belong? Not really, no. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
Of course, I guess it all depends on how the shapeshifter is treated. If they're exactly like lycanthropes save for no connection to the moons, I probably am not interested.
So, I guess it depends on which hat (or helm ;) ) I'm wearing at the time. From a rules perspective, they're allowable. As an RPG designer, I'm iffy as I'm balancing setting flavor and rules. In this case, I would probably quietly let them slip into the background. On a personal level...I would have to see how they're played out. If they're too much like lycanthropes, I probably wouldn't use them.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Honestly, no.
I was merely giving the explanation as to why the Karnuthians (or whatever they're called) are a viable monster race for DL. Technically, since they are not lycanthropes, they're allowable. Now, whether I agree with having non-lycanthropic shapeshifters or not is another story.
See that's my point. Canon should serve to keep the world consistent, but it should have a purpose of what you want to accomplish with the stories you want to tell in this world.
If you are following canon for canon's sake only, and don't bother to have good story reasons for why behind it, it just feels hollow, tasteless and well... stupid.
Originally posted by ferratus
See that's my point. Canon should serve to keep the world consistent, but it should have a purpose of what you want to accomplish with the stories you want to tell in this world.
If you are following canon for canon's sake only, and don't bother to have good story reasons for why behind it, it just feels hollow, tasteless and well... stupid.
Oh, I agree that canon is important and should have reasonings behind it.
I would highly recommend that you pick up Annotated Chronicles and Annotated Legends. I think the annotations would help you to understand why certain things are the way they are in DL. You'll gain insights to Margaret and Tracy's approach to setting design.
Originally posted by ferratus
So I've given you a bunch of shapechangers that resemble lyncanthropes in every way, but are not affected by the phases of the moon nor pass lyncanthropy onto others. Would you be pleased to see such a monster in an official dragonlance product?
Steve Miller already gave us this sort of thing with the bloodlines in Heroes of Defiance, one of the options provided for "hidden" or "secret" roles. He was referring, I believe, to the Karnuthian bloodline that resulted from an ancient curse. Thompson and Cook include a pantherlike shapeshifter in the Warrior's Tale, no doubt something along the same lines. So there's always an opening for a monster if you frame it differently.
Perhaps all that I would ask of future writers is, if you're going to add something to the setting, give it a new spin. If you know the magical curse/disease of lycanthropy has no precedence but an ancient bloodline of cursed shapeshifters does, and you are dead set on including somebody who can transform from dire rat to man, go for the bloodline angle. You might still get laughed out of the room, but at least you'd have some consistency.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Someday, I'm going to create a fantasy setting that is completely divorced from earth technology. That'll be sweet.
Sounds like seven kinds of hell and a ream of setting notes to hand out, to me. I need my easy references, even if they're only superficial.
Cheers,
Cam