Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 17, 2003 13:06:55	I just wanted to say thanks for the rallying support from a large number of fans over the last week. My general impression is that the fans think it's good that Dark Sun 3.5 sees the light in Dragon due to the general interest it will boost for the setting, but you are dissatisfied with the fact that it will be (probably) a one-man show article in May 2004 - not based on the athas.org DS 3.5 conversion, the result of the efforts of the official DS team and the large DS fan community. As some of you know, this is quite similar to what happened to the officially sanctioned Spelljammer conversion done in Polyhedron. I would encourage you to send e-mails to [email]dragon@paizo.com[/email] stating your concerns. However - do so in a respectful manner. Odds that they will listen to athas.org input can only be increased by the acknowledgement and commitment of the fans. PS: Your voice could make a difference.
#2 nytcrawlr Dec 17, 2003 13:53:28	You got my support, writing an email now.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 17, 2003 16:59:42	The Athas group consists of what, five people as part of the Overcouncil? What makes this self-selected group of representatives any more important then David Noonan's work?
#4 nytcrawlr Dec 17, 2003 17:03:52	Overcouncil Senate Any not covered above that make up the Templarates. That's alot more than just 5 people. ;) Not including the retirees. See for youself: http://athas.org/staff.php
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 17, 2003 17:06:43	I have to say that I generally dislike the athas.org DS conversion. However, the athas.org conversion is most true to DS than anything else I've seen and Dragon has no business trying to duplicate it without coordinating it with people who've done so much work. You have my support... I'll send an email. ciaran
#6 Grummore Dec 17, 2003 18:21:51	Originally posted by Tzeentch The Athas group consists of what, five people as part of the Overcouncil? What makes this self-selected group of representatives any more important then David Noonan's work? Because Athas.org AND the community have worked on this project for about 4 years now. They and we have seen water pass under the bridge. Does David Noonan have only HALF the experience and playtest of athas.org? No (period)
#7 Grummore Dec 17, 2003 18:24:34	Originally posted by ciaran00 I have to say that I generally dislike the athas.org DS conversion. However, the athas.org conversion is most true to DS than anything else I've seen and Dragon has no business trying to duplicate it without coordinating it with people who've done so much work. You have my support... I'll send an email. ciaran Small question here Ciaran. What's the things you dont like about the athas.org conversion? If it's the preserver / defiler things, about the defiler not beeing enouph powerful and power hungry, see the rule of d20 and DnD, they have to be balanced. Anyway, you just have to take feat in order to get more defiler or preserver. No?
#8 flip Dec 18, 2003 9:30:41	Originally posted by Grummore Does David Noonan have only HALF the experience and playtest of athas.org? I wouldn't go that far. I've spoken with Noonan in the past. At GenCon 2000, when Draloric and I were kicking the first few stones around. Dave was one of the leads of a WotC internal playtesting group... we talked a fair bit about the psionics book (which, of course, wasn't out yet) ... And he's managed to survive the employee churn at WotC for three years. And I also happen to know that he's a DS fan ... No, Dave himself was never a concern for me. I'm sure that he knows and understands 3e, and I'm reasonably confident that he's not completely unfamiliar with Dark Sun. (Though not, of course, as familiar as the collected geekdom that makes up athas.org) What concerned me about this was: It's a one-man show. And it's to be published in a magazine. One Man show: Despite what it might appear, DS3 is very definately a collaborative effort. Between several people at athas.org, some of whome have never even opened their mouths on these boards, and yea, even among the critical hordes here. Of course, I can't say that for certain ... and I'm sure that he's run the ruleset through a few groups of playtesters and such. And I've also got a sneaking suspicion that some of his material is as old as some of ours ... What concerened me more, however, was that it was going to be published in a magazine, with a general D&D readership, not a core following of DS fanatics. If you guys think that we kow-tow to the idea of balance and portability ... well, I can be pretty certain that you won't like what shows up in Dragon ... if things get too obscure or dependant upon funny rules that showed up in an issue a year ago, than they're just not going to fly. Some of those setting quirks that we worked hard to work in are just going to be waved away in this conversion. ... Now, the observant will note that a lot of the above is past-tense. I'm not saying that I don't have concerns with the upcoming issue ... but more that I belive that we're in a situation that we can still work with. There may still be problems ahead in all this, but ... let's not be all doom-and-gloom about this.
#9 irdeggman Dec 18, 2003 10:44:38	As they say try to be civil. I regret the overly harsh tone of my e-mail to Paizo. So consider me the bad cop already if everyone else is the good cop then perhaps things will open up and some good results will occur. I really have a feeling that the folks at Paizo will listen to the fans if they write, I mean that is where they make their money isn't it.
#10 deceitfulelf Dec 19, 2003 14:11:43	I rarely post here but I do read thru threads and I appreciate all the work everyone at athas.org has done. I have also emailed paizo in hopes they will acknowledge all the hard work put in at but everyone to get the core 3.5 rules out.
#11 knightfall Dec 19, 2003 14:53:54	Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas I would encourage you to send e-mails to [email]dragon@paizo.com[/email] stating your concerns. However - do so in a respectful manner. Odds that they will listen to athas.org input can only be increased by the acknowledgement and commitment of the fans. PS: Your voice could make a difference. Done.
#12 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 3:22:23	I've been using this board for a few months since I found some opportunity to start roleplaying DS again. Since the start I've been meaning to write a thank you post to the team for all the work they have pored into my favourite campaign setting (and hours they saved me trying to convert it to 3e). I never got around to that post so I figured this was a good chance. Just wanted to post what I sent to dragon after reading these posts here and I hope none of my information is erroneous. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This letter is on behalf of the folks over at the Dark Sun Community boards linked through the WOTC site. As I understand it you will be featuring some Dark Sun 3e material by David Noonan. While I am thankful that this long neglected campaign will see some light in a popular roleplaying magazine, I am dissapointed to hear that the Athas.org team that has kept the torch burning and put in countless hours working viable conversions over the past few years has not been included in this process. While I am unaware of any playtesting resources Mr. Noonan may have access to I do know that the Dark Sun community as it stands is somewhat substantial and the Athas.org team does a lot as far as pose concepts for feedback within that community (and occasionally draws members from that community). I know that Mr. Noonan is a respected member of the WOTC team and an avid Dark Sun fan but it seems a shame that he has not drawn upon the resources and frankly painstaking efforts to incorporate and test new rules already available. At the very least a mention of the Athas.org team in the article would be a boon, although some sort of collaboration between teams would be ideal. I thank you for your time in reading this and hope it finds you in good health.
#13 overelemental Dec 20, 2003 13:39:35	Well, I think it'll be interesting to see how a WotCer views the 3.5 world of Dark Sun. And I really don't agree much with how athas.org do things, so for my own campaign, athas.org and Noonan not talking together before he writes his article, would be in the best interest of me. And no, I don't mind game balance one bit, game balance is a good thing. I think the classes should be of equal power. The defiling/magic system and several other things, I don't approve of though. But I'm confident they'll give honourable mentions to athas.org and all the other official fanbased websites. It would only be fair to do so.
#14 zombiegleemax Dec 22, 2003 12:16:31	Originally posted by overelemental But I'm confident they'll give honourable mentions to athas.org and all the other official fanbased websites. It would only be fair to do so. Fairness is not the cornerstone of the world today, unfortunately. But we will see...
#15 nytcrawlr Dec 22, 2003 21:07:00	Originally posted by Nagypapi Fairness is not the cornerstone of the world today, unfortunately. But we will see... Nope, it's all about the all mighty $$$$$, esp in this country...
#16 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 14:17:40	Nytcrawler makea it sound like there actually WAS a time in which $$$ wasn't all that mattered. It's the great human folly.
#17 nytcrawlr Dec 23, 2003 14:24:50	So I'm not quite totally pessimistic yet, so sue me, heh.
#18 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 23, 2003 14:36:50	Stay on topic or get incinerated. ;)
#19 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 16:07:36	Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas Stay on topic or get incinerated. ;) And do you want to incinerate us for $$$ or for fairness' sake? :D
#20 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 23, 2003 16:43:09	And do you want to incinerate us for $$$ or for fairness' sake? Just my own personal satisfaction. ;)