Do wizards who take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class have to specialize?
Wizards who take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class may elect to be “generalist wizards”. Age of Mortals has a sidebar on this, explaining that you do not have to specialize, but you don’t gain the benefit of enhanced specialization at 1st level.
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Im playing a campaign shortly after the war of the lance... can I go as a generalist in WoHS or that's just for those other ages in "my future"?? :D
thanks!
Originally posted by uramis
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Im playing a campaign shortly after the war of the lance... can I go as a generalist in WoHS or that's just for those other ages in "my future"?? :D
thanks!
Yes, you can. This option is for all periods in which wizards are valid characters.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by darthsylver
Cam - Just so I understand. If you use the generalist feature, then a White robe generalist WoHS could essentially learn and use Necromancy spells?
They could, but I bet everyone else in the room raises an eyebrow when he casts one.
Imagine the look on a black robes' face when his necromancy spell not only gets counter-spelled, but then repeated by the opposing white robe.
Fun stuff, I love the generalist option.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Cam - Just so I understand. If you use the generalist feature, then a White robe generalist WoHS could essentially learn and use Necromancy spells?
Yes. And as Daedavias says, he may need to be a little circumspect about casting chill touch while his brethren are present, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Since a sizeable number of young apprentices probably aren't sure what color robes they will eventually wear, it would be difficult to begin their studies as a specialist wizard. How would they know which specialization to take? What if you start out as a Transmuter but then decided at Test time that you want to do Good and wear White Robes?
Wizards from cultures with strict magical traditions may be different. Elves, for example, only endorse White Robes, so it would not be unusual for them to guide apprentices towards studies of the schools of Divination or Abjuration (particularly the latter given their isolationist bent).
Originally posted by Psionycx
Since a sizeable number of young apprentices probably aren't sure what color robes they will eventually wear, it would be difficult to begin their studies as a specialist wizard. How would they know which specialization to take? What if you start out as a Transmuter but then decided at Test time that you want to do Good and wear White Robes?
It is true that few allegedly know for sure which color robes they will wear post-Testing, and thus Masters of schools and the like give uniform instruction as far as which spells they teach.
However.
I really think it would be strange to assume that the only students who actually choose the specialist route are those who "chose" their colors when they became apprentices - if so, the specialist route would be very rare, and since it is presented as the ONLY option in the core rules as written in DLCS, I think we can only assume that the specialisty route is the norm, not the exception.
So - how to deal with the fact that while no student knows exactly which robes s/he will wear later, most end up as specialist wizards? Well, I propose a little bending. After the Test, the general wizard, who has learned spells from all schools (or have they? perhaps Masters of Instruction only teach spells from schools with no affiliation to any particular Order - which would perhaps explain why you can get Reds and Blacks out of a school taught by a White), chooses to specialize when he chooses his robes. In effect, the double specialization happens all at once - choose one school you like and two you don't from this list, Solinari or whoever blesses you with greater mastery, etc. Maybe the approach is a little too pat, but I've found it serves quite nicely.
First: According to the rules, you pick your specialization first. Since one does not become a WoHS until 5th level, earliest, it must be assumed that every level before this is apprenticeship. Thus, as an apprentice, a character must already be specialized in the school of their choice - since first level, in fact, when this decision must be made. Without the generalist option - Yes, a character must have their specialization predetermined, since the start of their magic career, clearly having to plan what robes they will wear. It's a flaw of the mechanics, but since you're going by the book on this, I'm going by the book as well.
Second: In accordance with this 'by the book' method, let me also point out that all you're going to get is clones in the WoHS, according to the DLCS. Don't think so? Take another look. If a Red Robe, you must pick one school to be specialize to and three schools to have excluded. Note that the WoHS class determines even these excluded classes by saying that they must be from the other Robed schools. Thus, our Red Robe, who can specialize in Illusion or Transmutation (one of their few choices), also must lose 3 of the following 4: Necromancy, Enchantment, Abjuration, and Divination - Oh wait! You can't exclude Divination, so you are automatically missing those 3 schools, every time. Black Robes are in a similar situation. Only White Robes get some room for choice, getting to lose 3 of the 4 options: Illusions, Transmutation, Enchantment, Necromancy. Or only 2, if they specialize in Divination.
So, in effect, you're not steering away from 'clones' at all. All you're doing is promoting their existence. As the DLCS is written.
Third: If you're power playing, generalist wizard is not an ideal option. Sure, you get to cast any spell, but you're not the best at casting anything. Powergaming is largely built on the premise of min/maxing, not generalizing. Specialized wizard is the way to go.
Fourth: I saved this for last, because this is where I'm unsure on my facts. I believe the generalist option was always intended to be in the DLCS, but like many other things was cut out during one editing process or another. But even if it wasn't, Sovereign Press produces both, so how can you claim the DLCS as legitimate and the AoM as not?
Originally posted by The Udjat
[b]Unfortunately, your logic has some flaws.
And, unfortunately, you put a few words in my mouth as well.
I did not claim to be going "by the book" - as every DM knows, sometimes you have to bend the rules (I did mention that my idea involved bending, did I not?). I was merely expressing a sentiment in favor of one, earlier rule over a later rule, and proposing a possible tactic that might ease that earlier rule into use, without rather butchering it entirely (in my opinion, of course) as the later rule does (placing specialist WoHS on the backburner - because few people would be taking it since few know for sure exactly what they will be when they pass the Test -and, thus, tossing out much of what has characterized the class of WoHS since 1st edition).
I don't like the enhanced specialization because you have to give up three schools, but I also don't like the original generalist option, because it makes all the WoHS pretty much the same... of course, they have different "secrets" AND different moon cycles (and different fashions :D )... but looks like that's all...
I've found that the 3rd prohibited school its the real pain in the ass. the other two, whichever they are, are affordable. So I'll try to encourage my master to use a semi-generalist option. basically it's the same WoHS as the settings, BUT you don't have to loose another school... I know this is not right in balance terms... but he could use the "curse of the magi" option, or other things like that to compensate. or maybe something else? ideas?
thanks for the replys!!!Restriction of Spell Selection: A Wizard of High Sorcery may learn any spell from any school, this is so that when faced by spells of opposing orders the Wizard is, or at leasy may be, prepared to better defend himself. If a Wizard of high Sorcery learns and uses spells from schools favored by orders other than the one he belongs too, the wizard will be investigated by the conclave and if found guilty of using spells favored by other orders than his own, will punishment as decreed by the conclave. This punishment may be simply a change in the order the Wizard belongs to, or the wizard may be branded a renegade and destroyed by the conclave. Wizards of High Sorcery may use spells of any school as long as they are 1st, 2nd, or 0 level spells.
It gives quite a lot of power to the DM in regards to WoHS who don't abide by the rules, but hey the DM has "Ultimate power" !!!! anyway. So what the hey. It should also help handle the generalist wizard very well.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Maofeng - Here is a line from a class of WoHS that I made up and would use rather than the one in the DLCS.
Restriction of Spell Selection: A Wizard of High Sorcery may learn any spell from any school, this is so that when faced by spells of opposing orders the Wizard is, or at leasy may be, prepared to better defend himself. If a Wizard of high Sorcery learns and uses spells from schools favored by orders other than the one he belongs too, the wizard will be investigated by the conclave and if found guilty of using spells favored by other orders than his own, will punishment as decreed by the conclave. This punishment may be simply a change in the order the Wizard belongs to, or the wizard may be branded a renegade and destroyed by the conclave. Wizards of High Sorcery may use spells of any school as long as they are 1st, 2nd, or 0 level spells.
It gives quite a lot of power to the DM in regards to WoHS who don't abide by the rules, but hey the DM has "Ultimate power" !!!! anyway. So what the hey. It should also help handle the generalist wizard very well.
I think that's a very handy way around the problem - good thinking. Generalist wizards? Sure! But if you use that prohibited spell, you'll think the Inquisition was a cozy chat.
It gives the broad range of power that players crave while keeping the schools of the Orders more or less intact. I might just have to pirate that idea...giving full credit, of course....
That WoHS class of mine should up on the Nexus by x-mas (hopefully) there is an old version a 20 level version. The new one is only 15 levels. (I mean you can becoms a WoHS at fifth level, so why should the WoHS be only a 10 level class?)
Originally posted by Maofeng
And, unfortunately, you put a few words in my mouth as well.
I did not claim to be going "by the book" - as every DM knows, sometimes you have to bend the rules (I did mention that my idea involved bending, did I not?).
Perhaps 'by the book' was a bad phrase. How about 'as originally written' instead? I chose that style of thinking based on:
Perhaps I am merely hidebound, but I dislike the "generalist wizard" rules that were put out AFTER the final printing of the original set of rules for DLCS.
Does anyone remember the old DLA book? It had the same stricture - White robes had (a) certain school(s) that Red and Black had no access to, and so on.
There is a precedent for the forced specialization in DL, it is part of the whole High Sorcery thing
I, for one, ignore this rule that caters to players hungry for more power than the rules were originally written up to give.
since it is presented as the ONLY option in the core rules as written in DLCS, I think we can only assume that the specialisty route is the norm, not the exception.
...All led me to believe that was the base approach for your argument. I apologize for being misled.
That said, and despite my counter arguments, etc - I actually do agree in that I prefer specialization in the setting as opposed to generalization. Just not in the way the DLCS provides it, and not for all the same reasons as you. I'm a little bummed, though, that you chose to circumvent many of the points I tried to raise, though, rather than address them. As for your proposed compromise - I like it. It's very similar to what I use for the games I run.
I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, just debate a topic. ;) It's irrelevant which side I support, ultimately. I'm just trying to raise valid points that should be considered.
Originally posted by The Udjat
According to the rules, you pick your specialization first. ...It's a flaw of the mechanics...
I think we're in agreement here: the status quo re: the rules for approaching the WoHS prestige class is not good enough.
all you're going to get is clones in the WoHS, according to the DLCS.
Obviously, one can't argue with the statement that all wizards of a certain Order who specialize will end up with certain similarities: if you're facing a Red or Black, you know you won't be seeing any Abjuration magic, and you can probably even deduce a lot more. However, there are a great number of spells available, and I think it unlikely that any two wizards of the same Order will have exactly the same spells - unless of course you have a bunch of munchkin casters taking all combat, all the time, but I think that's hardly what people drive for, and if that's your reality, then God help you. Ahem - where was I? Right - it's very true about the schools defining wizards quite a bit, but I don't think it defines them more than individual spell selection sets them apart. Even with a more limited spell selection, there is still, I think, a broad range of spells to choose from.
I rather like the concept. Whites have their thing, Reds theirs, and Blacks theirs. I get the feeling that, without such strictures in place, Black Robes would have long ago wrested supremacy among the Orders, since they are free from moral constraint against ruthless uses of magical power - if they held all the same powers and spells as the other Orders, then it follows that they would have been better able to counter and subdue them in their climb to the top of the pile. Of course, that's only my own cracked little fancy - they would still be one against two, though they would be the one self-licensing their members to do anything they want in their pursuit of power.
If you're power playing, generalist wizard is not an ideal option.
Well, powergamer probably wasn't the best term - I'm not one, I haven't played alongside any for years, and I was probably just another poster propagating misuse of the term. What I was getting at should be pretty clear though: those players who don't want to give up anything in return for the gifts they receive. Yes, they want the WoHS class and the tasty little secrets it gives, but, no, they'll pass when it comes to actually giving up some of that coveted power (derived through versatility in spell selection). The Orders have always, from their inception, been designed around limiting and regulating magic power in mortals. Renegades are dangerous because they do not submit to the limits imposed by the Orders. If there are no spell school restrictions, then where are the limits? A White Robe is a Red Robe is a Black Robe is a renegade - all the same spell selection. No more forbidden knowledge to tempt renegades, and the whole Magius legend becomes merely a morality play (Magius went through all three robes and was a renegade as well - he probably had access to every spell in existance at the time; if the spell limitations are not in place, then Magius was simply a guy who had a fetish for crises of conscience).
Also, getting back from the tangent, would WoHS-specialized really be attractive to a powergamer? Choose one school and give up three - and those three must be chosen from among some pretty powerful staple schools. Just a thought, but the powergamer question should not have been raised, since it really wasn't something I was trying to base any points around, just something that flew off in the rant.
I saved this for last, because this is where I'm unsure on my facts. I believe the generalist option was always intended to be in the DLCS, but like many other things was cut out during one editing process or another. But even if it wasn't, Sovereign Press produces both, so how can you claim the DLCS as legitimate and the AoM as not?
Well, that really is my own personal recipe of one part preference, one part precedence, a dash of DLCS-was-published-first-as-the-main-product, and a sprig of AoM-is-a-supplement. I was just thinking of mixing up some egg nog, can you tell? Seriously, though, if SPress really did intend to include the generalist option in the original printing of DLCS, then they dropped the ball. The prestige class takes on a whole new image when that option is included, and the image is quite different from your father's DL. Unless it comes directly from an author's mouth, though, in a setting uninfluenced by corporate interests (which tend to promote the Admit No Mistakes credo), I doubt we will ever know. I lean toward thinking that WoHS was printed as originally intended in the DLCS, in agreement with previous versions, but it ran into snarls while playtesting because no one wanted to give up three schools. That's my theory - maybe Dragonhelm knows something we don't about the whole thing?
Merry RamaHannKwanzmas!