It would be flavour text if there was an explanation of why the greygem couldn't make drow elves, orcs and lyncanthropes.
Trying to invent rules for what Mr.Chaos can or can't do is pointless anyway as they'll just contradict him.
1) The graygem cannot create creatures, it can only change existing ones.
But the Graygem=Chaos, and Chaos created all kinds of fantastic creatures during His war.
2) Since it is the incarnation of Chaos, the graygem can only destroy or change, it cannot restore or remake.
There are all kinds of creatures that have been referenced as Graygem mutations from other creatures.
Edit: okay now you just confused the hell out of me. First you say that it can't create new creatures, and then you say it can't alter the old creatures. So what can it do? Nothing at all?
Originally posted by jonesy
Edit: okay now you just confused the hell out of me. First you say that it can't create new creatures, and then you say it can't alter the old creatures. So what can it do? Nothing at all?
It can do anything - it's a deus ex machina that simulates evolution in a world where evolution doesn't really occur, change where none was originally intended, and an excuse for anything the setting happens to need an explanation for. It isn't the only one, but it's a big one.
Terry just wants to explain why certain creatures have been deliberately excluded from the setting. There often isn't one - at least, not a reason backed up by an in-game explanation. Certain creatures don't appear on Krynn, including orcs and lycanthropes, and that's just how it is.
There's nothing which prevents you from including them in your own campaigns, but that's the magic solution to any setting element which doesn't suit a DM's tastes.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Terry just wants to explain why certain creatures have been deliberately excluded from the setting.
I can understand that, but I just don't see the point of creating a reason for the absence of certain things.
It's like saying: 'why aren't there any humans with naturally blue skin when there are all kinds of others?', because it's not like it was impossible, it just hasn't happened.
Not exactly the best analogy, but there are tons of others, all appropriate Just because it can happen, doesn't mean it does happen. But putting rules to a construct of inherent chaos is pointless. It's chaotic, for crying out loud. Why shouldn't it be able to change things however it wants, or, conversely, not change something? Just because orcs are somewhere, doesn't mean the graygem should 'just happen' to create the spitting image of orcs here. Sure, other monsters were created by chance like that, but why apply it to everything? Then it just becomes an excuse to transfer over the whole of the D&D universe.
Taking races out 'just because we want to do it differently' is perfectly acceptable. That's exactly why anything is done. The ruling came first, the justifications you're trying to make later are irrelevant. They're just not there. It's how it went down.
Speaking of some of the races created, though, many of them appaear to have been created as an adaptation to their environment, fitting a definite niche, etc. - Like Cam said, a sort of forced evolution where none previously existed. If that's the case, Drow make absolutely no sense, anyway. They never did, wherever you put them. D&D designers thought it'd be cool to create an evil version of elves that are designated as evil by their black skin and their dwelling underground - Two features that would typically be exclusive. If you live underground, you get no sun, you're pale. So they justify this with some vague reference to 'radiation', which solved all problems back then.
You want drow badly in your game? Let the elves in the desert evolve. It'll take 'em a while, probably, but they're wind up with dark skin. Maybe not black, but definitely dark.
(pssst, and makes getting rid of them for good easier too ;)
Originally posted by jonesy
Edit: okay now you just confused the hell out of me. First you say that it can't create new creatures, and then you say it can't alter the old creatures. So what can it do? Nothing at all?
No, no, what I said was it cannot remake creatures. So it can't rip apart a horse and fuse half a human on top of it, because that would essentially kill both creatures. Not that it couldn't kill them, but it cannot create or remake creatures.
Of course, I'm still interested in why fey can use wild magic and why the PC graygem races can, and what we can do to fix that little plot hole.
Originally posted by ferratus
Of course, I'm still interested in why fey can use wild magic and why the PC graygem races can, and what we can do to fix that little plot hole.
Why's it a plot hole? None of the mortals were using magic until the Greygem came along - at least, not wild magic a la sorcerers and mystics.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by jonesy
I can understand that, but I just don't see the point of creating a reason for the absence of certain things.
It's like saying: 'why aren't there any humans with naturally blue skin when there are all kinds of others?', because it's not like it was impossible, it just hasn't happened.
Well said, Jonesy. Basically, you’re asking, “How can you take something away if it isn’t there to begin with?” Using your analogy, we can’t take away blue-skinned humans because there just aren’t any.
Sometimes, the reasons that certain things are or aren’t in a world are based on logic, while at other times it’s a matter of the tastes of the designers. For example, it wouldn’t be logical to have lycanthropes in a world with three moons. The poor lycanthrope would be confused. We don’t see orcs, as the designers felt that orcs were overexposed at the time. Draconians soon came into play and took the place of orcs.
Dragonlance is a D&D world. You use D&D mechanics to allow you to play the type of character you wish for the setting. Yet every setting is different. The PHB gives you the basics, to allow one to play in a generic setting, such as Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms.
Yet D&D is malleable enough that it works for many settings. Each setting requires adjustments. What works in Greyhawk and the Realms doesn’t work in L5R or Dark Sun. Each setting has its own differences to achieve the certain flavor that the designers want. In each case, the rules are tweaked to adjust to the world.
So it is with Dragonlance. Dragonlance is close to being a “generic” fantasy world, but it differs in certain ways to preserve a certain feel. The restrictions are limited: drow, orcs, lycanthropes, psionic-using monsters, etc. etc. That still leaves one with 90-95% of the Monster Manual, which gives more monsters than what one would most likely use in a single campaign, not to mention all the new monsters in DL gaming products.
So what if some monsters are left out? There’s tons more, and if the DM feels that the inclusion of the “banned” monsters makes his game better, more power to him.
An old DM of mine included drow in the setting once, with some tweaks of course. I don’t reflect back on that thinking of how they didn’t belong. I think back on that thinking of what fun I had.
So go out there, use the monsters you want, and just have some fun.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Why's it a plot hole? None of the mortals were using magic until the Greygem came along - at least, not wild magic a la sorcerers and mystics.
Yeah, but were the fey pre-graygem or not? Can the greygem grant an innate power to use wild sorcery?
If so, what about the other graygem races? If not, why not?
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, but were the fey pre-graygem or not? Can the greygem grant an innate power to use wild sorcery?
If so, what about the other graygem races? If not, why not?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Perhaps.
But then again, if you want the Greygem to work on a consistent level, you may as well ask the Hylar to take the Sirrion Sea as a race of salty sea-dogs and drink elven wine.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Yes, yes, and yes.
Okay, so the fey weren't created when the graygem passed over the world, altering the flora and fauna. Fine.
So that means that they are as old or older than the ogre, human and elven races? Do they predate them? What is their origin?
Were they created by the high god? Are they spontaneous creations of the ambient wild sorcery of krynn? What's the deal with them?
If the fey aren't a greygem race, then graygem races shouldn't be able to cast magic during the age of darkness or light, because the ambient sorcery isn't accessible.
Of course, this should also make the fey non-existant during these ages as well.
Originally posted by ferratus
If the fey aren't a greygem race, then graygem races shouldn't be able to cast magic during the age of darkness or light, because the ambient sorcery isn't accessible.
Of course, this should also make the fey non-existant during these ages as well.
Dragons, fey, and other non-humanoid races don't fall into the same category as humans, elves etc with regard to ambient magic. The energies of Chaos influenced them, as it did all ambient magic, but it wasn't necessary for them to draw upon the power of that magic.
We went over this once before - a mortal sorcerer is not the equivalent of a fey with innate magical abilities.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Dragons, fey, and other non-humanoid races don't fall into the same category as humans, elves etc with regard to ambient magic. The energies of Chaos influenced them, as it did all ambient magic, but it wasn't necessary for them to draw upon the power of that magic.
Yes, but the question is, why do kender and other graygem races not fall into the same category as dragons or fey?
Which graygem races do fall into the same category as dragons or fey? If they do, why?
Originally posted by ferratus
Yes, but the question is, why do kender and other graygem races not fall into the same category as dragons or fey?
...because dragons and fey aren't Graygem races? What are you trying to find out, here?
Cheers,
Cam
Remember the gods of magic were created and they gifted the world with magic.
Now in DLA - it states that magic is brought into the World with the creation of the Graygem.
But in ToTL - The gods gave the five stones to the elves to end the first Dragon War. The gods of magic were banished from the world of Krynn (and their magic). They trick Reorx into making the Graygem. With the release of the graygem "magic reenters" the world.
In order for something to reenter, it must have been entered before being reentered.
Now in DLCS - The Graygem was created before the three original races were even made so that magic could enter the world. It was released Almost 5000 years after its creation. So did magic enter the world prior to it's release.
So Time for one of the many contradictions of DL. Do we go with the DLA history, ToTL, or DLCS.
Originally posted by darthsylver
So Time for one of the many contradictions of DL. Do we go with the DLA history, ToTL, or DLCS.
I would recommend the DLCS, as it looked back on both DLA and TotL.