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Elves Seem Hypocritical

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
baron_the_curse
Dec 19, 2003 21:24:36 All right, I have a bone to pick with Ansalon elves. It seems to me that the high elves are very hypocritical. They accept the worship of Shinare, Zivilyn, and Chislev, all gods of the Neutral Pantheon, yet they condemn elves who put on the Red Robes. This is something the elves should readdress if they reestablish themselves as a nation. It is unjust to outcast a good-hearted Red Robe, or any Red Robe of a non-evil nature. Elves might argue that there is no option between the Robes, an elf must walk in the light (White Robes), but by that same argument the elves should not embrace any Neutral deity or accept the gifts of Reorx worshipping dwarves.
#2
Nived
Dec 19, 2003 22:31:27 Yeah the DL Elves are all Holier than thou, hipocritical ****s. That's kinda the point. They're always the first ones to point out they were made by the gods of good, how they are the chossen of good, how everyone else is less than what they are, but how often do you actually see an elf do something good like say... help someone out? About never, and when you do it's the case of an individual not the culture. It is also amusing how often good acts have gotten said individual elves cast out of their society.
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 20, 2003 9:10:02 A lot of Dragonlance is meant to be a social commentary. Like the Kingpriest as the arrogant demogogue who ultimately puts his own needs ahead of both gods and mortals.

The elves reflect the tendency of some people to believe that, because they are a member of a particular faith, they are inherently better and more moral than other people. If you look around the real world you see a lot of people who take the stance that simply because they belong to a particular faith group that they know better than anyone else.

Paladine himself warns about this at the end of Dragons of Spring Dawning: "Yes, the kingpriest of Istar was a good man. Does that surprise you? It shouldn't, because both of you have seen what goodness like that can do. You've seen it in the elves, the ancient embodiment of good! It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong."

You see that everyday in the real world.

Thus, there is symmetry to the elves current plight. So much of their bad behavior has centered around homeland politics and keeping themselves cut off from the "immorality" of other races.

Now they have no homelands and must learn things about goodness that they have forgotten. They can no longer live aloof from each other and the rest of Krynn. They must learn that goodness is not a gift of birth that is then retained all one's life without even trying. They must learn that the strength of good comes from cooperation, not selfishness.

The story now will be of the elves being forced to learn all of this.
#4
baron_the_curse
Dec 20, 2003 17:02:54 I just wish a reasonable explanation would be given as to why the elves would deem a Red Robe a dark elf and not an elven druid of Chislev. There seems to be gap in that philosophy, both Chislev and Lunitari are of the Neutral Pantheon, so why is the Red Robe a dark elf and not the other? It makes as much sense as saying orcs don’t exist “just because”.
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 14:12:30 Discrimination is rarely rational. One of the points about "Dark Elves" in Dragonlance is that they are often branded as such unfairly. Did Alhana and Porthios really deserve to be cast out as dark elves?

The attitude towards Red Robes is that being a Red Robe is just one step along a continuum away from being a Black Robe. Since Wizards can (and do) sometimes switch allegiances among the three gods of magic that makes people particularly paranoid. The Qualinesti initially looked askance at Red-Robed Raistlin when he showed up with the companions, and that was where we first read the elven view on wizards. Ironically, they were right. Raistlin did eventually change from a Red Robe to a Black Robe.

A druid of Chislev, at least, is not likely to become evil (at least not with their goddesses approval) anytime soon, and people mostly understand this. That said, most Silvanesti and Qualinesti would rather see an elf with a nature-fetish worshipping Habbakuk.

Dalamar might never have become a Black Robe had the Silvanesti caste system forbidden him from studying magic. That was a social injustice that ultimately led to evil rather than preventing it.

The point being that logic is not always applicable to these things, especially when talking about people's prejudices.
#6
baron_the_curse
Dec 21, 2003 14:53:18 Granted, discrimination is rarely rational, but especially more so in this case. Chislev admits neutral evil worshippers and even druids, for example; some bakali worship Chislev, while Lunitari would never allow an evil Red Robe, and any that are evil are better serve in the Black Robes, which they often switch over to as you mention. I really think this policy needs to be reexamined by the elves.
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 15:10:44 I think a LOT of their policies need to be reexamined by the elves, and not just this one!

Again, they're a little arbitrary about how they go about this. Alhana and Porthios were branded as "dark elves" for purely political reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with alignment. Character class also has little relevance here. A Commoner who commits an "evil" deed (like violating the Silvanesti caste system) can be cast out just as readily as a Neutral Evil cleric or a Lawful Neutral Red Robe could.

That's part of the whole storyline. This is less of a game rule than a plot point. The elves have some dubious practices that don't hold up well to moral scrutiny. Though they broadly subscribe to the idea of Good, their actions often fall short of it.

Their failure to see that is the cause of many of their problems.
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 15:36:43 In short: Yes, they're hypocritical. Most people realize this, except for the elves as a whole. They're going to have to learn this the hard way.
#9
baron_the_curse
Dec 21, 2003 15:37:58 You make very good points. I run very political games. My campaign is in a point where a great number of the “evilness” of the Qualinesti has been rooted out, i.e. corrupt politicians, spies, etc. Yet, the players are perplex as to why the elves continue the way they are.

As you said, their shortcomings are not necessarily evil acts; they just fall short of being good. Elves preach about the follies of others but they rarely step back to see their own wrongdoings. The elves do need to reexamine a lot of their ways, but I don’t see this coming anytime soon, even if they had their nations in tact.
#10
zombiegleemax
Dec 21, 2003 18:34:05 Actually, it is the loss of their nations that will probably force them to change.

As I said earlier, sometimes the "evil" for which elves were cast out was really nothing more than the sin of non-conformity. They didn't fit into a highly lawful, rigid notion of society (the Good/Evil axis being irrelevant here) and so were punished.

Or in some cases being branded a dark elf was merely a political maneuvre intended to outflank someone and destroy their credibility (as was the case for Alhana and Porthios).

Secure in their little secluded havens, the elves could pretend that because they were born into a race favored by the gods of Good, that they were inherently Good themselves, and thus above reproach. Like the kingpriest, they stopped questioning their own actions because they simply assumed they were right by default.

Now that they have lost their homelands, the elves are going to have to face life's ugly realities and won't be able to hide from them behind artfully constructed walls of cultural excuses.

A lot of role-playing around elves now should center on their learning that other races are not as morally inferior as they tend to think. They must learn humility, and that one cannot blame others for all of one's own shortcomings. And they must learn that Good is not something that you are, it is something that you DO.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 baron_the_curse Dec 19, 2003 21:24:36	All right, I have a bone to pick with Ansalon elves. It seems to me that the high elves are very hypocritical. They accept the worship of Shinare, Zivilyn, and Chislev, all gods of the Neutral Pantheon, yet they condemn elves who put on the Red Robes. This is something the elves should readdress if they reestablish themselves as a nation. It is unjust to outcast a good-hearted Red Robe, or any Red Robe of a non-evil nature. Elves might argue that there is no option between the Robes, an elf must walk in the light (White Robes), but by that same argument the elves should not embrace any Neutral deity or accept the gifts of Reorx worshipping dwarves.
#2 Nived Dec 19, 2003 22:31:27	Yeah the DL Elves are all Holier than thou, hipocritical ****s. That's kinda the point. They're always the first ones to point out they were made by the gods of good, how they are the chossen of good, how everyone else is less than what they are, but how often do you actually see an elf do something good like say... help someone out? About never, and when you do it's the case of an individual not the culture. It is also amusing how often good acts have gotten said individual elves cast out of their society.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 9:10:02	A lot of Dragonlance is meant to be a social commentary. Like the Kingpriest as the arrogant demogogue who ultimately puts his own needs ahead of both gods and mortals. The elves reflect the tendency of some people to believe that, because they are a member of a particular faith, they are inherently better and more moral than other people. If you look around the real world you see a lot of people who take the stance that simply because they belong to a particular faith group that they know better than anyone else. Paladine himself warns about this at the end of Dragons of Spring Dawning: "Yes, the kingpriest of Istar was a good man. Does that surprise you? It shouldn't, because both of you have seen what goodness like that can do. You've seen it in the elves, the ancient embodiment of good! It breeds intolerance, rigidity, a belief that because I am right, those who don't believe as I do are wrong." You see that everyday in the real world. Thus, there is symmetry to the elves current plight. So much of their bad behavior has centered around homeland politics and keeping themselves cut off from the "immorality" of other races. Now they have no homelands and must learn things about goodness that they have forgotten. They can no longer live aloof from each other and the rest of Krynn. They must learn that goodness is not a gift of birth that is then retained all one's life without even trying. They must learn that the strength of good comes from cooperation, not selfishness. The story now will be of the elves being forced to learn all of this.
#4 baron_the_curse Dec 20, 2003 17:02:54	I just wish a reasonable explanation would be given as to why the elves would deem a Red Robe a dark elf and not an elven druid of Chislev. There seems to be gap in that philosophy, both Chislev and Lunitari are of the Neutral Pantheon, so why is the Red Robe a dark elf and not the other? It makes as much sense as saying orcs don’t exist “just because”.
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 14:12:30	Discrimination is rarely rational. One of the points about "Dark Elves" in Dragonlance is that they are often branded as such unfairly. Did Alhana and Porthios really deserve to be cast out as dark elves? The attitude towards Red Robes is that being a Red Robe is just one step along a continuum away from being a Black Robe. Since Wizards can (and do) sometimes switch allegiances among the three gods of magic that makes people particularly paranoid. The Qualinesti initially looked askance at Red-Robed Raistlin when he showed up with the companions, and that was where we first read the elven view on wizards. Ironically, they were right. Raistlin did eventually change from a Red Robe to a Black Robe. A druid of Chislev, at least, is not likely to become evil (at least not with their goddesses approval) anytime soon, and people mostly understand this. That said, most Silvanesti and Qualinesti would rather see an elf with a nature-fetish worshipping Habbakuk. Dalamar might never have become a Black Robe had the Silvanesti caste system forbidden him from studying magic. That was a social injustice that ultimately led to evil rather than preventing it. The point being that logic is not always applicable to these things, especially when talking about people's prejudices.
#6 baron_the_curse Dec 21, 2003 14:53:18	Granted, discrimination is rarely rational, but especially more so in this case. Chislev admits neutral evil worshippers and even druids, for example; some bakali worship Chislev, while Lunitari would never allow an evil Red Robe, and any that are evil are better serve in the Black Robes, which they often switch over to as you mention. I really think this policy needs to be reexamined by the elves.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 15:10:44	I think a LOT of their policies need to be reexamined by the elves, and not just this one! Again, they're a little arbitrary about how they go about this. Alhana and Porthios were branded as "dark elves" for purely political reasons that had nothing whatsoever to do with alignment. Character class also has little relevance here. A Commoner who commits an "evil" deed (like violating the Silvanesti caste system) can be cast out just as readily as a Neutral Evil cleric or a Lawful Neutral Red Robe could. That's part of the whole storyline. This is less of a game rule than a plot point. The elves have some dubious practices that don't hold up well to moral scrutiny. Though they broadly subscribe to the idea of Good, their actions often fall short of it. Their failure to see that is the cause of many of their problems.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 15:36:43	In short: Yes, they're hypocritical. Most people realize this, except for the elves as a whole. They're going to have to learn this the hard way.
#9 baron_the_curse Dec 21, 2003 15:37:58	You make very good points. I run very political games. My campaign is in a point where a great number of the “evilness” of the Qualinesti has been rooted out, i.e. corrupt politicians, spies, etc. Yet, the players are perplex as to why the elves continue the way they are. As you said, their shortcomings are not necessarily evil acts; they just fall short of being good. Elves preach about the follies of others but they rarely step back to see their own wrongdoings. The elves do need to reexamine a lot of their ways, but I don’t see this coming anytime soon, even if they had their nations in tact.
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 18:34:05	Actually, it is the loss of their nations that will probably force them to change. As I said earlier, sometimes the "evil" for which elves were cast out was really nothing more than the sin of non-conformity. They didn't fit into a highly lawful, rigid notion of society (the Good/Evil axis being irrelevant here) and so were punished. Or in some cases being branded a dark elf was merely a political maneuvre intended to outflank someone and destroy their credibility (as was the case for Alhana and Porthios). Secure in their little secluded havens, the elves could pretend that because they were born into a race favored by the gods of Good, that they were inherently Good themselves, and thus above reproach. Like the kingpriest, they stopped questioning their own actions because they simply assumed they were right by default. Now that they have lost their homelands, the elves are going to have to face life's ugly realities and won't be able to hide from them behind artfully constructed walls of cultural excuses. A lot of role-playing around elves now should center on their learning that other races are not as morally inferior as they tend to think. They must learn humility, and that one cannot blame others for all of one's own shortcomings. And they must learn that Good is not something that you are, it is something that you DO.