Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Charles_Phipps Dec 20, 2003 19:32:04	It's an interesting pickle I'm in game time as a campaign has gone in an unexpected direction.... The situation started here... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150821 and basically centers around the fact the aftermath is the gods are now holding a trial to determine whether a mortal is a servant of good, evil, or neutrality and the punishments/rewards to bestow on such. (The players wanted to spin the situation well out of context to do a "Devil and Mr. Smith" trial on the nature of good and evil) Dragonlance is a fairly typical fantasy world in the fact that the Gods of Evil and Good have people more or less gravitate to them whom share a similiar like viewpoint. I am interested though in imagining what sort of limits a GM might or might not place on how much can be done by a specific shade of alignment before a player slips over to another side And may or may not take to serving evil gods. (Soth after his damnation became a servant of Chemosh and Takhasis after all, Raistlin called Takhasis his Queen and Nuthari his lord) Are most evils by necessity servants of the Dark Gods? Do those whom 'pass over to evil' feel a gravitation to the Dark Ones when they do so? I am interested because we occasionally have such interesting cases as Steel Brightblade whom is a Neutral then Solidly good man whom serves Takhasis Yet can Evil love since Raistlin by his very robes was denied Crystania? Where does his soul go for instance and what is the 'breaking point' really before he is no longer evil? In my case it's always been difficult with one player who played a 'bizzare type'.... Valance was a White Robe whom went Black during the War of the Lance but that was because of his hatred of Takhasis. He accepted Nuthari's power but it was on the condition of serving Raistlin to the ultimate end of destroying her. When called to choose between his red robed lover's life and the Library of Magius, he destroyed the Library (denying it to his enemy) even as he preserved her What seems most precious to him was his half-elven daughter yet the character when finding his guardians mistreated her (Knights of Solamia) cursed the knights with Lycantropy, brought down the castle with plague, and turned the rest to monsters. then there's the issue of turning down godhood if not under Raistlin's power Is he evil or simply a Red with much blood on his hands? It's tough calls like this I'm curious on
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 20, 2003 21:09:09	He is an evil Red with alot of blod on his hands. He'll probably become black if he dosen't do something about it.
#3 darthsylver Dec 20, 2003 22:31:51	IMO he is a chaotic black robe. With the library even a black robe would destroy magic to deny it falling into the wrong hands (sometimes this includes other black robes). As far as protecting his daughter even Raistlin took pity on innocent occasionally. The reason behind it would help decide if he was red or black. Ask this question would he do the same if he saw another young female being abused in the same manner as his daughter by foster parents? If yes then he leans towards and may even be a Red robe (although that extra damage is hard for even a red robe to justify). If no then he is most definitely a black. The point comes down to: did he do what he did because what the knights were doing was wrong, or because he was simply mad at the way he daughter was treated. Also was it simply that she was ostracized, maybe called names, and other minor mistreatments or was she being physically abused or worse? Think of cindarella. Yes Cinderella was mistreated, but was she in any real danger. No. She could have grown up and eventually left even if she had to run away. But there is no real reason to harm or kill the mother or sisters, maybe take away some of their money or belongings (not necesarily destroy). If the mother was selling her to a pimp that could be seen as a justification (by some) to take revenge by other means.
#4 Charles_Phipps Dec 21, 2003 2:57:28	Can unselfish people be Black Robes? Can loyal, hardworking, honest, and yet thoroughly ruthless people be evil? Mina is an excellent case because she's utterly devoted to Takhasis yet she's (or is she?) insane. How far can "exceptions" to their personality go? (BTW he's black to start with) The Curse of Valance on the House of Solamia had to do ironically with his unselfish action to his daughter going grossly wrong. He chose a Solamnic family known for it's 'good' to harbor his daughter because he feared she'd be 'damaged' by her experiences with him And he wanted her to go to Paladin's heavens and not the Abyss when she died. The Solamic asked the Black Robe for payment to take his daughter and he in payment smote the man's enemies in several neighboring Solamnic houses to make it seem that an evil wizard had done it. (his first clue things were not right in Denmark) When he returned she was little better treated than a slave and physically abused as a half-breed and possibly sexually so (I left it under the air since I wanted to oddly leave the character some dignity). The Solmanics ran the fiefs extremely poorly and used the threat of the evil wizard to overtaxation for a lavish lifestyle. Seeing her treated as a serving girl in rags and felt up underage after what he'd done for them caused him to snap.
#5 darthsylver Dec 21, 2003 12:00:59	Oh yeah he is black to the core.
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2003 12:26:19	There's always going to be blurs. Alignment is just a guideline. Many elves are firmly Good. But they're also arrogant and selfish. They can be benevolent, but sometimes have to be given a kick in the pants to motivate them. Raistlin as a Red Robe was actually a great model of active neutrality. On the one hand he often did charitable deeds like debunking charlatan priests and helping sick people with herbalism. But he was also self-centered and driven to seek personal power. Notably, it was when Raistlin stopped bothering with any good deeds and focused on his quest for power that he fit perfectly into the black robes. Where once he'd helped people, now he created and kept tortured creatures (the Live Ones) as part of his experiments and committed other callous acts. Steel Brightblade was more committed to Takhisis as an element of the Lawful portion of his alignment than from a commitment to Evil (as were many early Knights of Takhisis). When the spirit of Kitiara told him to pack up because Takhisis was "leaving" Krynn (as part of her plot), Steel refused because such selfishness was wrong to him. He was more Lawful Neutral. He leaned towards Good at the end. A thief might worship Hiddukel (since he's the god that favors thieves) but not be evil himself. But the god would likely try to tempt him to true evil. This interaction with the gods is part of the Dragonlance theme. Hiddukel might place opportunites for the thief to make really big gains, at the price of having to commit murder or other evil acts. INTENT is as important as action in determining where someone is on the map. But at the same time, some acts are simply Good or Evil and you can be benefitted or tarnished by committing them.