Why was the town of Von Ziyden not present? It's classified as a Small Town according to population and has probably been present on every map. Also, what is the correct spelling of this town's name? The 3E campaign setting claims it is "Von Ziyden" while the map (and even the Ravenloft Catalogue) claims it is "Vor Ziyden."
And finally, what are the stats of Praesidius Levin Postoya? I mean what are his abbreviated statistics (gender, race, class, & level) as presented with all other Important Characters in the city stat blocks? His name is present, but it looks as though his other important details were left out or accidentally cut.
Originally posted by Mortavius
Why was the town of Von Ziyden not present? It's classified as a Small Town according to population and has probably been present on every map. Also, what is the correct spelling of this town's name? The 3E campaign setting claims it is "Von Ziyden" while the map (and even the Ravenloft Catalogue) claims it is "Vor Ziyden."
Vor Ziyden was left out? Out of curiosity, is Ilvin in the book?
And yes, Vor Ziyden is the correct spelling.
Originally posted by Mortavius
And finally, what are the stats of Praesidius Levin Postoya? I mean what are his abbreviated statistics (gender, race, class, & level) as presented with all other Important Characters in the city stat blocks? His name is present, but it looks as though his other important details were left out or accidentally cut.
Levin Postoya is a LN male human Clr6 of Ezra/AoM5. (Anchorite of the Mists prestige class, found in Van Richten's Arsenal.)
And Ilvin is on the map but not in the site of interests. Only Degravo, Misericordia, Levkarest, Lechberg and Sturben
Who wrote each section, anyways?
Originally posted by Mortavius
Thanks for the quick response, John. Out of curiosity, do you have any ideas on why those two towns were not presented?
Who wrote each section, anyways?
Not-insignificant space problems, I assume.
I wrote Borca, Anthony Pryor wrote Invidia (is it Anthony? I really hope I'm not getting his name wrong, because I was quite impressed by his work), Andrew Wyatt wrote Verbrek, Ryan Naylor wrote Valachan, and Sithicus was co-written by James Lowder and Voronica Whitney-Robinson.
For the life of me I cannot remember whether I wrote the Foreword or Andrew Wyatt wrote it. [Edit: It was Wyatt.] Hopefully someone will fill in my mental gaps.
And for what it's worth, I'm very impressed with the Moonchild prestige class. I don't know who wrote it up, but they certainly know the feel of Ravenloft. At first I was worried that this would "munchkinize" lycanthropes and invalidate previous work with Lycanthropes and alignments; but reading the class I can see that power does come with a price, and all the previous work with lycanthropes is agknowledged and held up.
Originally posted by Mortavius
Thanks for the continuing info John. I'm sure you know my next question then. Do you think there would be any way we could see what you wrote for Vor Ziyden & Ilvin?
That's up to Arthaus.
Originally posted by Mortavius
And for what it's worth, I'm very impressed with the Moonchild prestige class. I don't know who wrote it up, but they certainly know the feel of Ravenloft. At first I was worried that this would "munchkinize" lycanthropes and invalidate previous work with Lycanthropes and alignments; but reading the class I can see that power does come with a price, and all the previous work with lycanthropes is agknowledged and held up.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
I was very impressed with Borca, Valachan and Verbrek. Invidia left me with a sort of "mneh" feeling, Sithicus strayed too far from S's character for my liking, but I've only read it once and it may be intential.
I noticed that too but remember that in Sithicus she's distracted from the overwhelming guilt the domain imposes on everybody.
Originally posted by Charney
I noticed that too but remember that in Sithicus she's distracted from the overwhelming guilt the domain imposes on everybody.
But, like in Invidia, she seemed to know WAY too much of the domain's history. She even mentions that Inza was two years old when the Wander's entered Sithicus. While it is interesting that Inza was born after Gundar's death, it is hardly important to the history of the domain. Even at her most guilt addled, I doubt that S would decide to mark a groups entry as two years after a single members birth, instead of using a year.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
Levin Postoya is a LN male human Clr6 of Ezra/AoM5. (Anchorite of the Mists prestige class, found in Van Richten's Arsenal.)
Hey John,
Since Postoya is head of the whole church, does that mean he's the highest level Anchorite in all the land? If I recall, AoM was a 10-level prestige class. Does this mean there are no AoM's over 5th level in canon RL? Or perhaps that there are no anchorites over 11th level total? Or is D&D level not completely analogous to church hierarchy?
Originally posted by gonzoron
Hey John,
Since Postoya is head of the whole church, does that mean he's the highest level Anchorite in all the land? If I recall, AoM was a 10-level prestige class. Does this mean there are no AoM's over 5th level in canon RL? Or perhaps that there are no anchorites over 11th level total? Or is D&D level not completely analogous to church hierarchy?
According to Gaz 3, page 33, Bastion Joan Secousse, the leader of the Neutral sect, is a Clr6/Anm8.
Originally posted by gonzoron
Hey John,
Since Postoya is head of the whole church, does that mean he's the highest level Anchorite in all the land? If I recall, AoM was a 10-level prestige class. Does this mean there are no AoM's over 5th level in canon RL? Or perhaps that there are no anchorites over 11th level total? Or is D&D level not completely analogous to church hierarchy?
I've never really put D&D level as an equivalent to hierarchy. After all, who's more likely to be high level, the priest who spends every day leading the faith, or the lone missionary preaching in hostile and foreign lands? Even if the higher ranking priest has more levels, some are likely in a class such as Expert, where a few more leadership-appropriate skills could be gained, whereas the lowly missionary is more likely a straight up cleric.
Though I'll also add that I doubt there's really many NPC's in Ravenloft who have the full 10 levels in any Prestige Class. I don't see there being many 15-18 level individuals that exist in the setting, outside of the darklords, and races that already have a high ECL to begin with (where their class levels are still relatively low anyway).
Originally posted by gonzoron
Hey John,
Since Postoya is head of the whole church, does that mean he's the highest level Anchorite in all the land?
I don't think they check character sheets at the door, no.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I don't think they check character sheets at the door, no.
Heh heh, point taken...
Although they could check for certain abilities to manifest. Much like they check for a Shield of Ezra before recognizing a new schism. I wouldn't be surprised if demonstrating Mists Oubliette or Shroud of the Mists was a pre-requisite for the post of Praesidous. But I guess, given the nature of Borca, connections with the right people are more likely to be the pre-requisites.
Thanks...
Originally posted by The_Arcanist
But, like in Invidia, she seemed to know WAY too much of the domain's history.
That's actually built into the way the domain of Sithicus now works. It is really, really hard to keep secrets there. It's so bad that people pretend that they don't know things, rather than deal with the repercussions.
So S should have had an easy time figuring out a lot of details, more than would have been open to her elsewhere.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
That's actually built into the way the domain of Sithicus now works. It is really, really hard to keep secrets there. It's so bad that people pretend that they don't know things, rather than deal with the repercussions.
So S should have had an easy time figuring out a lot of details, more than would have been open to her elsewhere.
Cheers,
James Lowder
And that's why I'm wondering she didn't find out more about the old gods of Sithicus. She should have been able to digg up tons of (contradicting) stories..Was the religion text cut short because of space?
S only had to read van Richtens Guide to Ghosts / Witches to learn more about Sithicus gods...
Witches ...that reminds me : were Greenhags and fey left out intentionally from the monster list ? Fey do live in the forest of the neighboring domains but not in the cores most "fey" domain?
Originally posted by The Midir
And that's why I'm wondering she didn't find out more about the old gods of Sithicus. She should have been able to digg up tons of (contradicting) stories..Was the religion text cut short because of space?
S only had to read van Richtens Guide to Ghosts / Witches to learn more about Sithicus gods...
Witches ...that reminds me : were Greenhags and fey left out intentionally from the monster list ? Fey do live in the forest of the neighboring domains but not in the cores most "fey" domain?
Because the text doesn't mention something does not mean it doesn't exist.
But the domain is also one that foregrounds truth, so the contradictary stories--if they do clash with themselves or other established parts of published Sithican history--would have to be settled one way or the other, maintaining as much as possible of all variations.
Continuity for a line as complex as Ravenloft is--or should be--a process of synthesis.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by Brandi
James, since we're talking Sithicus now... what is the basis for the Elvish language? It didn't look like Esperanto and I'd *think* that using Qenya would get the Tolkien estate upset.
I didn't work on that part. Sorry.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
Because the text doesn't mention something does not mean it doesn't exist.
But the domain is also one that foregrounds truth, so the contradictary stories--if they do clash with themselves or other established parts of published Sithican history--would have to be settled one way or the other, maintaining as much as possible of all variations.
Continuity for a line as complex as Ravenloft is--or should be--a process of synthesis.
Cheers,
James Lowder
O.K. I only thought that the "missing" hags & fey had something to do with the connection many fey and hags have to illusions and half-truths ... (so I can throw that dread dryad at my players after all)
I'm a little confused by Gaz 4 depicting the elves as pretty much unreligious, because in published material their gods do appear quite often...seers of Paladine, hags possing as Quenesti-Pah...although i do admit that they only appear footnotes and neither the adventure nor your books mention the elves being very religious. (By the way, like your books, especially Spectre otBR, great story but had hoped for more elf apperances...maybe you can guess by now that I'm a fan of elves)
Thanks Midir
Originally posted by The Midir
O.K. I only thought that the "missing" hags & fey had something to do with the connection many fey and hags have to illusions and half-truths ... (so I can throw that dread dryad at my players after all)
Absolutely. There would still be creatures dedicated to untruth hanging around. Their lives would just be very hard.
I'm a little confused by Gaz 4 depicting the elves as pretty much unreligious, because in published material their gods do appear quite often...seers of Paladine, hags possing as Quenesti-Pah...although i do admit that they only appear footnotes and neither the adventure nor your books mention the elves being very religious. (By the way, like your books, especially Spectre otBR, great story but had hoped for more elf apperances...maybe you can guess by now that I'm a fan of elves)
I've got an elf-centered Sithicus short story partially done. It's about the elves' reaction to all the flowers turning black at one point in Soth's reign. It was originally supposed to run in Dragon, but when WotC dropped the RL line, the magazine decided they didn't want it, and I never finished it. Maybe now that the magazine is running "classic campaign" material again, I'll have to revisit it.
You're right that the Sithican elves have been pretty much relegated to footnotes in the existing material, though.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by The Midir
I'm a little confused by Gaz 4 depicting the elves as pretty much unreligious, because in published material their gods do appear quite often...seers of Paladine, hags possing as Quenesti-Pah...
By "published material," are you referring to the Dragonlance line?
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
By "published material," are you referring to the Dragonlance line?
I can't remember Quinesti-Pah, but Van Richten did visit a medium who worshipped Paladine in VRGtGhosts.
Originally posted by Brandi
James, since we're talking Sithicus now... what is the basis for the Elvish language? It didn't look like Esperanto and I'd *think* that using Qenya would get the Tolkien estate upset.
It's original. I designed it to sound reminiscent of Tolkien's Qenya, but they don't actually share any commonalities.
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Personally, I've always imagined Silvanesti to sound Irish Gaelic, with the other Krynnish elves using different varieties of Celtic. Qualinesti would speak Welsh Gaelic and Kagonesti Scottish Gaelic.
The Gaelic languages are in use elsewhere.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
The Gaelic languages are in use elsewhere.
I know, it's just my personal taste. How did you all decide which language for which domain? Some I can see, such as High and Low Mordentish is taken from when William the Conquerer took power and installed French as the language of society.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
By "published material," are you referring to the Dragonlance line?
No, i'm refering to : VRG Ghost pg.71 (Red box, Paladine), VRG Witches pg 269-270 (Quenesti Pha) , the constellations of old Sithicus in Domains of Dread pg 49 , a cleric of Paladine i can't find right now. Footnotes only, yes, but since my campaign took place in sithicus most of the time I tried to get every bit of infomation on it I could get...(your Book of S article and your Sithicus fleshed out were quite helpful...) so now I will have to ignore Gaz 4 concerning Religion and invent something of my own...what is not a bad thing
Originally posted by James Lowder
Absolutely. There would still be creatures dedicated to untruth hanging around. Their lives would just be very hard.
I've got an elf-centered Sithicus short story partially done. It's about the elves' reaction to all the flowers turning black at one point in Soth's reign. It was originally supposed to run in Dragon, but when WotC dropped the RL line, the magazine decided they didn't want it, and I never finished it. Maybe now that the magazine is running "classic campaign" material again, I'll have to revisit it.
You're right that the Sithican elves have been pretty much relegated to footnotes in the existing material, though.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Now you spilled blood into a bowl of piranahs...I want to read that story!!! Tell those guys at WotC to print it !
It's hard for me to judge without seeing the final book, but from the material I've seen I think there's a lot less of a gap between Gaz IV and the older material than you're perceiving.
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
It's original. I designed it to sound reminiscent of Tolkien's Qenya, but they don't actually share any commonalities.
Huh, interesting. Guess if I wanted to use some Elvish that wasn't in that primer I'd go with Qenya then.
See, I like to find out what the Ravenloft languages are derived from in case I want someone to overhear something and be puzzled by it. Henry Beard's Latin for All Occasions and Latin For Even More Occasions should spice up a Darkonese adventure, for example, as the players try to figure out if "Podex perfectus es" is a term of endearment or not (hint: IT ISN'T).
Originally posted by Brandi
Huh, interesting. Guess if I wanted to use some Elvish that wasn't in that primer I'd go with Qenya then.
Well, you would want to look at the published Dragonlance novels first, even before the "primer" in the new Gaz. If you've got a language that is either supposed to mirror, or be derived from, Elvish on Krynn, it should take that pre-existing source material into account. And in the central DL books, at least, the Elvish used by Margaret & Tracy is not founded upon a specific, single language source; I asked Margaret about this just to be certain.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
Well, you would want to look at the published Dragonlance novels first, even before the "primer" in the new Gaz. If you've got a language that is either supposed to mirror, or be derived from, Elvish on Krynn, it should take that pre-existing source material into account.
That's true as well. Preexisting terms were tucked into the Sithican dialect here and there, without calling attention to them. The Sithican elves' term for themselves (esthi, or "people") is a purposeful distortion of the -esti suffix used by the elves of Ansalon. The word rothihir in the primer, meaning "tyrant," is derived from the same grammar that produces Sithicus.
The root words of rothihir are rothé ("dread") * i (-of-) * hir ("lord"), literally translating as "dread lord" or "lord of dread." Meanwhile, Sithicus' root words can be broken down into sith ("spectres") * i (-of-)* cus ("land"), or "land of spectres."
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
That's true as well. Preexisting terms were tucked into the Sithican dialect here and there, without calling attention to them. The Sithican elves' term for themselves (esthi, or "people") is a purposeful distortion of the -esti suffix used by the elves of Ansalon. The word rothihir in the primer, meaning "tyrant," is derived from the same grammar that produces Sithicus.
The root words of rothihir are rothé ("dread") * i (-of-) * hir ("lord"), literally translating as "dread lord" or "lord of dread." Meanwhile, Sithicus' root words can be broken down into sith ("spectres") * i (-of-)* cus ("land"), or "land of spectres."
Forcing the fragments into an existing, Real World language structure, as you have claimed to have done, goes against other aspects of the published DL material, of course. It's a choice you made, but I think the original DL material is a better source for the DL Elven language. Too bad you didn't bother to check with Margaret or Tracy on their intent.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by The Midir
No, i'm refering to : VRG Ghost pg.71 (Red box, Paladine), VRG Witches pg 269-270 (Quenesti Pha) , the constellations of old Sithicus in Domains of Dread pg 49 , a cleric of Paladine i can't find right now. Footnotes only, yes, but since my campaign took place in sithicus most of the time I tried to get every bit of infomation on it I could get...(your Book of S article and your Sithicus fleshed out were quite helpful...) so now I will have to ignore Gaz 4 concerning Religion and invent something of my own...what is not a bad thing
Please if you have anymore RL/DL references you know of could you list them. I am continually searching for even trace references to DL in Ravenloft.
Originally posted by James Lowder
you have claimed to have done,
I did no such thing. This is... what? The sixth or seventh completely -- and demonstrably -- baseless accusation you've launched at me? I'm still waiting for an apology for the last half dozen. Failing that, I'd gladly accept some actual proof of these claims. You know, anything that would demonstate that you aren't just making drunken punches in a crowded room. I note you've irately refused every past request to back up your claims. Could it be that they keep evaporating every time the haze fades and you look at the facts?
Hell, I'm just suprised that this time, you didn't follow up this public attack with a private warning not to engage in public attacks.
Put up or shut up, Lowder. Just so you know, I've compiled a fully annotated file noting every change I made to the Sithicus chapter. It pretty handily proves just how full of it you are. How about you toss out just one quote to back up your fevered claims.
For example -- the original files you and your co-author turned in included no language primer, despite the fact that such was your responsibility, since that primer is a standard component of the gazetteer format. [ETA:] Forgot to mention that the language section itself was virtually nothing more than a rattling off of Dragonlance-specific languages the SIthican tongue supposedly remembles. Guess what -- not only does that give a reader nothing he can use to capture the Sithican language, we can't use specific Dragonlance names. The entire section was a violation of the Arthaus Ravenloft license as we had been led to understand it during the previous three years.
If you get this ticked at the notion of someone else doing your job, then maybe you should have done your job, rather than simply trying to twist a gaming supplement into a placeholder for an unwritten novel that no one currently has any intention of ever publishing.
Oh, and I loved how the original draft of Sithicus included exactly two adventure hooks -- "there might be gold in thet thar cave" and "there might be gold in thet thar clearing." Yes, brilliant game design there; stunning evocation of the Ravenloft atmosphere.
Originally posted by James Lowder
It's a choice you made, but I think the original DL material is a better source for the DL Elven language. Too bad you didn't bother to check with Margaret or Tracy on their intent.
We couldn't use either of Ansalon's elven languages even if we wanted to. That should have been explained to you by the do-nothing, know-nothing developers. In addition, since Sithicus has been designed from day one as a distortion of Dragonlance, and that the elves of Sithicus have long been described as not truly belonging to either elven nation/race, I fail to see the crime in putting a little creative space between Ravenloft and other WotC settings, since that's been policy for the last three years.
Too bad you didn't bother to learn anything about the product line you were writing for.
Oh, and about asking Weis & Hickman for their blessings -- you are aware that they spent years publicly disavowing your contributions to their character, yes?
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
I did no such thing.
My mistake about the "Real World" basis. I should have said "existing" rather than "real." Because you did claim that you utilized Tolkien--as in: "It's original. I designed it to sound reminiscent of Tolkien's Qenya, but they don't actually share any commonalities."
If you made them sound the same, even "remniscent," they have commonalities and thus you imposed some of the phonics from Tolkien on the Sithican Elvish. (What you seem to be saying above is you made them similar, but totally dissimilar. You can't have it both ways.)
But even if you made the whole language up--structure, grammar, and phonics--if it really is entirely "original," my larger point stands.
What you didn't do was access the existing DL material or contact the authors of the core DL material. You imposed your vision on the language (well, part Tolkien, part you) without adequate research. You assumed you knew best--not only about RL, but DL. You overstepped your bounds.
As I said, this makes your language material of limited use, and its inclusion is thus a flaw in the section. One you introduced.
As for the rest:
I did the job requested of me. As a result, I have an open-ended invitation to write for the RL line. They are very happy with the material I turned over to them, as I wrote it. (If you have comments about the sections Voronica wrote--and your comments about the game design aspects in the previous post are from sections she wrote--you should take that up with her.)
So the end result of this mess is--I'm asked to write more RL material (based on the raw text I turned over, not your revision) with the assurance that the nonsense you pulled won't be repeated.
Does that make it clear where the problem is here? In everyone's mind but yours, I would imagine.
I will also humbly note that if a fraction of the audience that bought the Sithicus novels--that continue to buy the Sithicus novels--bought this Gaz, in hopes of seeing even a small fraction of where the storyline goes post-Spectre, it would still do very good things for the sales. That was part of the point of Arthaus asking me to write the material, as with the Wanderers for Heroes of Light. The rest of the reason is, I have a lot of experience as a writer and designer.
I have enough experience as a game designer to know my work's far from perfect. But I have also done enough game design work, for enough different companies, to know that you had no business treating my work the way you did.
Maybe you'll stick around in the industry long enough to figure out where your blew it. But I doubt it.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by John W. Mangrum
We couldn't use either of Ansalon's elven languages even if we wanted to. That should have been explained to you by the do-nothing, know-nothing developers.
It's everyone's fault but yours, John. Keep saying that enough and you'll believe it....
In any case, there might have been ways to make the language material work, the Elvish to remain at least compatible with the WotC-proprietary DL material. You didn't bother checking that out. You created something "original" because you assumed you knew better.
And even if that wasn't possible, there was no way around the restrictions, this presents a good argument for not including a language primer in this section. It is stupid to include one that is incorrect, one that breaks continuity in such an obvious way. One that will be ignored and declared invalid the moment WotC is once again directly involved in the RL setting and someone realizes you didn't use the existing Elvish structures from DL. (For why you should have, see below.)
You would not think of these options because you are certain you know best and seem to be fixated on the format for the sections, when any good game designer will tell you that being so restricted in your views about such things is not productive. Content should trump form in instances like this, when to stick to a minor format structure--here the inclusion of a sidebar--creates content problems.
If you bothered to ask the opinions of the designers working on the section, someone could have pointed this out to you and headed off this needless flaw you introduced.
In addition, since Sithicus has been designed from day one as a distortion of Dragonlance
Yes, John. Please tell me about how Sithicus was designed, what the intent of the domain was from day one. Is this your fan boy "I hope I grow up to work on Ravenloft some day" day one, or the day one when I was working on the original boxed set and Knight of the Black Rose?
I fail to see the crime in putting a little creative space between Ravenloft and other WotC settings, since that's been policy for the last three years.
It has not been policy from what I've seen. In fact, I provided Arthaus and the K with the write-ups for Azrael and other Sithicus material so that the two would remain in synch.
But even if that were the policy, you are, on one hand, claiming that you "corrected" my work because it was objectively wrong, that you can cite more or better instances where Soth was called "the Black Rose" as opposed to "the Cursed Knight." But here you're claiming that the point was to distance the Arthaus material, that creative changes are OK. Again, you want it both ways. When it suits you, continuity must be respected, and only you know continuity, so you're right. When it doesn't, you are being creative and distancing the work, because only you know what the real vision of the world should be. Again, you must be right.
And the crime? The crime in what you did with the language is that you miss the point of the domain, both the spirit and the letter.
Sithicus was supposed to be almost an exact copy of things Krynnish, back when Soth was in charge. Close, but off by a little. That was the torture of the placeto him. So the Elvish would have been close, but with slight variations. A Bostonian accent and dialect with a drawled Georgian "y'all" thrown in there every once in a while.
The close of Spectre had Soth succeeding in reclaiming his correct memories, his true self. The most likely impact on the Elvish would have been the correcting of the slight variations--the disappearance of the "y'all"--if any change at all occured in the language. That is the solution supported by the existing material, both the letter and the intent of it.
Oh, and about asking Weis & Hickman for their blessings -- you are aware that they spent years publicly disavowing your contributions to their character, yes?
Indeed, but if you are trying to drawn an analogy, it fails.
The character of Soth is not "theirs," as they signed rights away to TSR. But, even so, as has been pointed out in lots of places, I offered them every opportunity to be involved in the Sithicus novels. They were offered unprecedented review and input on the material. But they refused. They are welcome to their opinions on the matter--and I remain on good terms with both of them, despite our disagreement on the subject--but they cannot say they were not asked, that they did not have the opportuinity to see that their wishes were considered and respected. For their own reasons, they declined.
My objection to your actions is that you never bothered to ask, that you made wrongheaded decisions--like the language one--without getting the opinion of people who know the material at least as well as you. This shows disrespect to the writers whose work you overwrote and incredibly poor judgement as an editor or reviewer.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
Indeed, but if you are trying to drawn an analogy, it fails.
The character of Soth is not "theirs," as they signed rights away to TSR. But, even so, as has been pointed out in lots of places, I offered them every opportunity to be involved in the Sithicus novels. They were offered unprecedented review and input on the material. But they refused. They are welcome to their opinions on the matter--and I remain on good terms with both of them, despite our disagreement on the subject--but they cannot say they were not asked, that they did not have the opportuinity to see that their wishes were considered and respected. For their own reasons, they declined.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Didn't stop Hickman whining when he came back to TSR did it?
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
Didn't stop Hickman whining when he came back to TSR did it?
I don't agree with how Margaret and Tracy handled the matter, but I can understand why Tracy, in particular, was unhappy about the situation. Sooner or later, that work-for-hire contract comes back to bite most writers on the posterior, in one way or another.
I just wish that Tracy could have taken up the offer made to him to either write Knight of the Black Rose or participate in its review. Even with the latter, he would have seen that the project was committed to maintaining the character's integrity, so that Soth would be Soth when H&W decided to write him again.
Cheers,
James Lowder
As you will soon discover, we are very critical about the overall continuity and in this case: S' personnality.
People cringed at S romantism for Mordent. Even using the Guilt explanation of Sithicus, a too big change in her style would have started a flame war.
Originally posted by Charney
I want to point out that the way I hear it John also saved you from fan critics.
And your source for this? Please be specific.
Also, since you are claiming inside knowledge, please do so with your real name attached.
But even if there was material that was "fixed" in the work--and I will point out that all the design criticisms John has raised in the past day do not touch upon any of the Sithicus sections I wrote--my disagreement is with how the review process was handled, particularly on John's part.
If there were aspects of the work that needed to be fixed, respect for the writer(s) dictates that the writer(s) be included in the process. When that doesn't happen, things like that misguided language primer get added.
Frankly, I find content mistakes like that a lot more of a problem than a slight shift in narrative tone between sections of a book written by multiple authors.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
I just wish that Tracy could have taken up the offer made to him to either write Knight of the Black Rose or participate in its review. Even with the latter, he would have seen that the project was committed to maintaining the character's integrity, so that Soth would be Soth when H&W decided to write him again.
Personally I don't think the reader really understands Soth unless one reads Knight and Specter. For me that was where Soth really came alive. Only in those novels is he really a true character and not just background for the story. I believe that Soth's end could not have come about without his experiences in Ravenloft.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
Personally I don't think the reader really understands Soth unless one reads Knight and Specter. For me that was where Soth really came alive. Only in those novels is he really a true character and not just background for the story. I believe that Soth's end could not have come about without his experiences in Ravenloft.
Thanks. Soth is an interesting and complex character, and I worked very, very hard to integrate all the source material and remain true to it. The novels are, I think, an amplification of material already present in the character in the first six DL books. But I still would have liked to have had direct input from Margaret & Tracy on the matter. That would have only made them better.
Cheers,
James Lowder
For me that was where Soth really came alive. Only in those novels is he really a true character and not just background for the story.
While I don't think Soth was really just a background character in Dragonlance, he merely suffered from being a-really-neat-character-concept-that-there-just-wasn't-time-to-explore there, much as many of the coolest characters in The Lord of the Rings just sort of linger on the fringes because the cast is so huge. Doesn't make them (or him) any less cool, though.
Indeed, in Ravenloft Lord Soth found a stronger need to confront his own story because such is the nature of the Demiplane of Dread. I've always liked him there, was rather sad when he had to leave, and also felt a little disappointed that Weis and Hickman hadn't approved.
Out of curiosity, Mr. Lowder, and if I might ask: Whose conception was it first to think, "Let's take Soth and send him into Ravenloft!"? I remember the first day I saw Knight of the Black Rose on a bookstore shelf, immediately recognized his trademark armor-helm-and-plume and realized he was depicted under a Ravenloft logo. It was just....whoooaaaa.... :D
Originally posted by Ashlock
Out of curiosity, Mr. Lowder, and if I might ask: Whose conception was it first to think, "Let's take Soth and send him into Ravenloft!"? I remember the first day I saw Knight of the Black Rose on a bookstore shelf, immediately recognized his trademark armor-helm-and-plume and realized he was depicted under a Ravenloft logo. It was just....whoooaaaa.... :D
I'm not certain who first suggested it, but it likely would have been either Mary Kirchoff, who was the head of the book division at the time (and a veteran DL author), or Bruce Nesmith.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
And your source for this? Please be specific.
Also, since you are claiming inside knowledge, please do so with your real name attached.
But even if there was material that was "fixed" in the work--and I will point out that all the design criticisms John has raised in the past day do not touch upon any of the Sithicus sections I wrote--my disagreement is with how the review process was handled, particularly on John's part.
If there were aspects of the work that needed to be fixed, respect for the writer(s) dictates that the writer(s) be included in the process. When that doesn't happen, things like that misguided language primer get added.
Frankly, I find content mistakes like that a lot more of a problem than a slight shift in narrative tone between sections of a book written by multiple authors.
Cheers,
James Lowder
I have no inside knowledge but here's my real name: Phil Boulanger.
I'm a fan and I know as such (from being on those boards since RL3ED) that continuity is very very important to fans. So I pointed out that John, probably did modifications for continuity (if I'm wrong, I apologize in advance).
As for the griefs you hold against him, I'm sorry if I mixed them up a little.
Still do you have the actual book in hand?
One only has to look at Lisa Smedman. Fantastic work with Castles Forlorn and When Black Roses Bloom, but writes The Grim Harvest Trilogy and BOOM! Everyone hates her.
Same thing happened the Bill Conners, to a lesser extent, with A Light in the Belfry and Shadowborn.
Originally posted by James Lowder
Yes, John. Please tell me about how Sithicus was designed, what the intent of the domain was from day one. Is this your fan boy "I hope I grow up to work on Ravenloft some day" day one, or the day one when I was working on the original boxed set and Knight of the Black Rose?
Cheers,
James Lowder
I think it's obvious to anyone that can read that I am a huge fan of John's work, so I think this is an unfair statement. Yes, John was a fan of the setting, but look where being a fan of the setting has got him, he now has over 8 products to his name spanning two edtions of the game.
Discounting novels, flipping through my, admittedly incomplete, collection I can find your name on 2. "Darklords" and the disputed "Gaz 3."
If I'm out of line, please say, but give John the credit he deserves for getting where he is.
Originally posted by James Lowder
And your source for this? Please be specific.
Also, since you are claiming inside knowledge, please do so with your real name attached.
I find it odd that, for claiming a need to keep continuity, you are so willing to throw out four books worth of established character. S and her gazetter format were developed over three and 3/4 books by the time she got to Sithicus. I would have thought that, writing that late in the series, her own style and the rules that she restates at the beginning of each book would be important. There has been MUCH discussion on the message boards (Here, the old Kargatane site, the Fraternity of Shadows, other boards that have popped up since October 31st), and it is difficult to imagine S deviating from her work and its presentation for any reason. She has sacrificed her daughter to undeath for research purposes. Even after her adventure in Verbrek, she kept to her format. If death (or something quite close) cannot make her deviate, then even the nature of Sithicus would have little ability to dent that.
Otherwise the penalty for non-natives needs to be absolutely crippling.
Reviews and other opinions were not thrilled with her straying from character in Mordent. She is a scholar. Her work is her life, as we've seen thus far. Format is everything to her and if you were writing in character that should have been in the forefront of your mind.
And if she could not be true to herself in Sithicus, where could she be?
By the way, I'll give you my real name if its that important to you. Is there any reason for asking that?
Originally posted by Charney
I have no inside knowledge but here's my real name: Phil Boulanger.
I'm a fan and I know as such (from being on those boards since RL3ED) that continuity is very very important to fans. So I pointed out that John, probably did modifications for continuity (if I'm wrong, I apologize in advance).
Hi, Phil:
Thanks for stepping out from behind the screen name like this. I appreciate it.
And I certainly understand the fan base's interest in continuity. In fact, I share that interest and have a lot of practical experience with the matter, having run the Ravenloft fiction line as Ravenloft fiction line editor in TSR's book division for the first couple of years of its existance. Keeping authors on the same page for continuity was part of my job.
So I'm not questioning whether or not editing or continuity checking needs to be done. I'm questioning how it was handled in this instance.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by Drinnik Shoehorn
I think it's obvious to anyone that can read that I am a huge fan of John's work, so I think this is an unfair statement. Yes, John was a fan of the setting, but look where being a fan of the setting has got him, he now has over 8 products to his name spanning two edtions of the game.
I ran the Ravenloft fiction line for several years, in addition to my work as a writer on the RL material you noted. And I have dozens of credits as a game designer and editor (not counting my work in fiction), with a very wide range of companies. So citing the couple of specific RL credits is fine, but not accurate in the big picture.
As I have said to John both on and off the list, I have respect for what he and the Kargatane accomplished and the support they showed the RL line.
But the point at which he starts lecturing me the "intent" of Sithicus from "day one," when I was involved in both the boxed set and wrote Knight--well, that's just dopey and deserves to be mocked.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by The_Arcanist
I find it odd that, for claiming a need to keep continuity, you are so willing to throw out four books worth of established character.
You jump to a completely false conclusion here. I haven't advocated that.
I said a slight shift in narrative tone between sections is OK--that means things like writing style and word choice. It is to be expected from multi-author books.
And leaving out a sidebar that creates additional, greater problems is, to most experienced game designers, common sense. To follow the format slavishly, when to do so creates continuity problems, is just bad game design.
If quietly leaving out that one sidebar to you is tantamount to throwing out the continuity, you are welcome to that opinion. I disagree. To me, doing content damage to the setting is a greater evil than breaking the format in this very small way. Neither option is great, but you have to go with the lesser evil.
In any case, the S continuity could be maintained while still respecting authors. I may have even been able to come up with a way to make the language sidebar work.
How? By having the editors and reviewers provide review notes and ask the authors to fix things rather than blasting ahead and overwriting them. I know this works because I have employed it many times myself in the editing of continuity-heavy products for Ravenloft, Forgotten Realms, etc, etc. I would have been happy to revise, and in doing so I could have helped head off some of the several mistakes--like the language sidebar--that were inserted.
Everyone wins that way. Editors get what they want. Continuity is respected. The author is part of the process and can help the editors not trample too hard over what he or she was paid to write. Better products result, which benefits the fans.
I will also note that it's mistaken to assume that the continuity for any long-lived series like Ravenloft is fixed. Continuity has to be treated as organic, and there are times when the folks in charge have to unclench and realize that. Otherwise, the setting petrifies. And multi-author shared worlds like Ravenloft do not function well when people get in charge who believe they know better about everything than the writers that are being hired.
By the way, I'll give you my real name if its that important to you. Is there any reason for asking that?
If you're claiming inside information, I'd like to know who you are. If you're involved in the production of these products in any way, or lifelong pals with John or the K, it would be polite of you to point that out.
Cheers,
James Lowder
this is a vastly different situation then an arguement between a fan and a writer, which (usually) totally revolves around the message board. This is a writer vs. writer and that means there is some professional/personal real world disagreements between them. I have been a comic fan long enough (where this kind of thing is quite common) to know that this does not end well.
I have my thoughts on the situation, but I will keep them to myself and maybe suggest that we should stop ourselves before this becomes a situation were fan 1 sticks up for lowder, fan 2 sticks up for mangrum and so on ad nauseum. I don't know the 100% facts of the case and wouldn't jump in without knowing the real world situation.
This is a really unprofessional way to do things between writers and maybe we should let the two of them do this by themselves without our encouragement.
Originally posted by James Lowder
I ran the Ravenloft fiction line for several years, in addition to my work as a writer on the RL material you noted. And I have dozens of credits as a game designer and editor (not counting my work in fiction), with a very wide range of companies. So citing the couple of specific RL credits is fine, but not accurate in the big picture.
Sorta is, since we're talking about Ravenloft. But like I said, my collection is not exhaustive. I lack most of the adventures and the VRGst Vampires and Liches.
my thoughts:
this is a vastly different situation then an arguement between a fan and a writer, which (usually) totally revolves around the message board. This is a writer vs. writer and that means there is some professional/personal real world disagreements between them. I have been a comic fan long enough (where this kind of thing is quite common) to know that this does not end well.
Thank you, Frandelgearslip*:
This is what I have been saying on an adjacent thread, and it is very good to hear another fan echoing my opinions.
It is not healthy for the writers to openly feud in public, as it can divide us all.
Just for the record, I refuse to take either side. (Great. Now, they'll BOTH hate me;) )
*By the way, what's your handle from? A Dragonlace tinker gnome?
Originally posted by Walden
*By the way, what's your handle from? A Dragonlace tinker gnome?
yeah I got it from a one line mention in the tales of the lance boxed set. Used it for the name of the pc, because I really liked the name.
Originally posted by Walden
Just for the record, I refuse to take either side. (Great. Now, they'll BOTH hate me;) )
Heh. Yeah, watch out now, Walden ;)
Actually, the calls for fans not to take sides are wise.
And on the upside, this problem has resulted in some very constructive behind-the-scenes discussions with the official line developers on what the procedure should be to balance continuity and involve writers at all stages. If there's follow through--and I expect there to be--this will be good for future products.
Cheers,
James Lowder
(An attitude White Wolf often tried to project but which I usually found annoying.)Originally posted by Walden
I suppose everyone involved thinks of themselves as "tormented artists."
I'm an irked writer. Tormented artists mope. Irked writers--especially this irked writer--tend to mock people ;)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by James Lowder
Heh. Yeah, watch out now, Walden ;)
Actually, the calls for fans not to take sides are wise.
And on the upside, this problem has resulted in some very constructive behind-the-scenes discussions with the official line developers on what the procedure should be to balance continuity and involve writers at all stages. If there's follow through--and I expect there to be--this will be good for future products.
Cheers,
James Lowder
I sincerely hope so too.
That you are both going to hate Walden... no just kidding ;)
Originally posted by James Lowder
Actually, the calls for fans not to take sides are wise.
I must say I am forced to ignore that and state I am totally opposed to Fan A and fully pro-Fan B!
Originally posted by The_Arcanist
By the way, I'll give you my real name if its that important to you. Is there any reason for asking that?
Sock puppets? Real names unnecessary. Post a pic.
Originally posted by Mortavius
I think it's horribly ironic that a topic I started up specifically NOT about Sithicus is still turned around to that domain. ;)
That's the thing about Ravenloft--you can set off down the road certain you aren't going to the bad place, and yet that's just where you end up. ;)
In any case, I like irony.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Um. Well. I have to admit I am completely oblivious to Dragonlance except as that place where Soth and kender came from, so I had no idea to what extent the Elvish language had been developed in them.
See, I'm thinking of providing an online listing of what the Ravenloft languages are derived from and ideally links to pronounciation guides, phrase lists, etc. that might let a DM add extra flavor to a campaign.
So far, doing Google searches on the Dragonlance Elven language hasn't yielded up much beyond basic rules references (such as here) and several bulletin boards where someone is asking how they can learn the language! The one link to an online Elven phrasebook is dead and a Google search on the phrasebook's title yielded nothing.
In comparison, the first hit I get from Google on "Quenya" is an online language course!
Originally posted by The MadStepDad
Sock puppets? Real names unnecessary. Post a pic.
A picture of a black pot will do nicely in your case, I'm sure. LocdOut can use a black kettle, just to be different.
Originally posted by Andrew Hackard
A picture of a black pot will do nicely in your case, I'm sure. LocdOut can use a black kettle, just to be different.
Watch it, Andrew. You're going to start sounding like me ;)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by LocdOut
All I got to say is keep ya eyes on the prize because you're gunna get slayed.
Oh please, anything but that. Oh dear me. Whatever shall I do. The horror, the horror. I'm all a-tremble.
LocdOut will be there soon enough, when we update the roster for 2004.
Originally posted by Andrew Hackard
Oh please, anything but that. Oh dear me. Whatever shall I do. The horror, the horror. I'm all a-tremble.
Too much sarcasm. Head imploding. Plus obscure reference to Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Must keep breathing...