Yuck.
Why do we need it? Maybe I'm hidebound, traditionalist, dogmatic, whatever, but I don't see what was wrong with the old Krynn, she of the lawful struggle on both sides, she of shining knights and terrible dragons, the epic struggle of good versus evil. It may simply be this nasty association I can't shake of LoS and harpers (and my anti-Faerun stance), but I don't see why they are needed. Krynn has a strong lawful tradition, and if you want to do good, you join Paladine's priesthood, the White Robes, the KoS - you don't join some half-baked so-called organization employing thieves and such to do dirty work that results in good things. Traditionally, Krynn hasn't worked that way - you do good work to effect good things. This isn't the Realms.
Further, am I the only one who found the latest few novels rather wanting? Like probably everyone out there, I fell in love with Chronicles, with Legends, with Tales, even with Tales II, with Heroes, etc.. Sure, some authors I found much better than others, but if there was at least a passage of writing by Knaack or Weis or Hickman, I was there. After Legends, though, even the dynamic duo of Weis and Hickman seemed to get a bit strained in the storyline area of the novels.
So - here's my theory. Dragonlance has never been the big seller in the gaming industry - which is why Wizards dumped it (was it wizards? the company's changed hands so many times, it could be owned by Starbucks by now). So, to generate sales, the bigwigs decide to call in their powerhouse authors for a board meeting to address drumming up some more revenue out of DL. Summer Flame is born, along with Saga. Big mistake: people hate it. Doesn't sell well. SO - back to the drawing board. Another board meeting: let's bring DL into the 21st century and 3e. War of Souls is born. People didn't like the gods leaving? Well, we'll bring them back. We can't just return it to the status quo, though, since we know that doesn't work - we had the best-selling trilogies from Weis and Hickman in the '80's and still didn't get DL up to the level of FR (which somehow succeeds more despite having less quality writing). So, let's take out the two major gods, the ones who always end up facing off in every major struggle to date: Paladine and Takhisis. There: it looks like your father's DL, so we won't alienate everyone, but it's different enough that hopefully we'll get people interested again.
The only problem is that the poor novelists are left trying to tie all the strings together after the CEOs are done butchering the story. Gone are the days of Chronicles when the novels are inspired by actual gaming sessions. Remember how much fun those were to read? A far cry from such as War of Souls.
Which is not to criticize W&H: I still buy every DL book they put out, and many of the non-DL as well. They write well, together and separately, but I think they've been dealt an unfair hand by the gaming industry, and, and - I guess I want to know if anyone agrees. I play rpgs in the Age of Mortals, because I've found setting games in past ages problematic, but it's certainly not all I could hope for.
I welcome your thoughts. Rant over.
Originally posted by Maofeng
Legion of Steel...I don't see why they are needed. Krynn has a strong lawful tradition...
Which is exactly why they are needed. Krynn was becoming a little too lawful. It was always about the balance, but the balance between good and evil. Now we have neutrality with the upper hand. The Legion of Steel represents the most active part of neutrality. They help the people for the people's sake, not just to defend them against evil (like the Solamnics) or to bring order into their lives (like the Nerakans). The LoS is a refreshing organization that accepts nearly anyone into their ranks and helps nearly anyone who needs their help.
As I don't know anything about these Harpers, I can't comment on them.
Originally posted by Maofeng
Am I the only one who sees a little too much "Harpers of Faerun" in the Legion of Steel? Same underpowered prestige class, same basic ideology as far as I can see, and a nice little organization for freedom for all those bards and thieves and such. Of course, "Legion of Steel" sounds a heck of a lot more imposing than "Harpers" - it sounds like something on the level with the Knightly orders, right?
You’re right in that there are some basic similarities between the Legion of Steel and the Harpers. Both are working for a greater good, for example.
Why do we need it? Maybe I'm hidebound, traditionalist, dogmatic, whatever, but I don't see what was wrong with the old Krynn, she of the lawful struggle on both sides, she of shining knights and terrible dragons, the epic struggle of good versus evil.
I see your point, and there is something to be said for a traditionalist point of view. I think the Legion of Steel was added to add some grey, where everything prior is black-and-white.
It may simply be this nasty association I can't shake of LoS and harpers (and my anti-Faerun stance), but I don't see why they are needed. Krynn has a strong lawful tradition, and if you want to do good, you join Paladine's priesthood, the White Robes, the KoS - you don't join some half-baked so-called organization employing thieves and such to do dirty work that results in good things. Traditionally, Krynn hasn't worked that way - you do good work to effect good things. This isn't the Realms.
No, it isn’t the Realms, but I think there are some types of jobs that a knight, wizard, or cleric are not best suited for. Also, consider the idea that the Legion of Steel incorporates all class types. The Knights of Solamnia, Holy Orders of the Stars, and Wizards of High Sorcery do not. They’re a great tool to use for bringing in all class types together to work for a common cause.
Further, am I the only one who found the latest few novels rather wanting?
There are those who are on both sides of the fence with this one. Some like it, some don’t. I don’t think there’s any way for anyone, even Weis and Hickman, to compete or surpass Chronicles and Legends.
So - here's my theory. Dragonlance has never been the big seller in the gaming industry - which is why Wizards dumped it (was it wizards? the company's changed hands so many times, it could be owned by Starbucks by now).
Lol! Knowing Starbucks, I wouldn’t doubt it.
Dragonlance was originally the intellectual property of TSR, which was bought out by Wizards of the Coast, which has in turn been bought out by Hasbro. WotC now functions as sort of a subsidiary of Hasbro.
So, to generate sales, the bigwigs decide to call in their powerhouse authors for a board meeting to address drumming up some more revenue out of DL. Summer Flame is born, along with Saga. Big mistake: people hate it. Doesn't sell well.
This is a bit…misinformed. Dragons of Summer Flame was meant to be an ending for Krynn. They thought it had its day.
According to Margaret Weis, the reason for Dragonlance going the SAGA route was so that it wouldn’t be associated with D&D – hence it could not be used for the D&D movie.
Perhaps there’s more background info that we don’t know about, but that’s the latest I heard, and it is from a most reliable source.
SO - back to the drawing board. Another board meeting: let's bring DL into the 21st century and 3e. War of Souls is born. People didn't like the gods leaving? Well, we'll bring them back. We can't just return it to the status quo, though, since we know that doesn't work - we had the best-selling trilogies from Weis and Hickman in the '80's and still didn't get DL up to the level of FR (which somehow succeeds more despite having less quality writing). So, let's take out the two major gods, the ones who always end up facing off in every major struggle to date: Paladine and Takhisis. There: it looks like your father's DL, so we won't alienate everyone, but it's different enough that hopefully we'll get people interested again.
There’s no doubt that War of Souls was designed to bring the split fan base back together. The end result was a good one, IMO. You have all four types of magic, appeasing both 4th age and 5th age fans. The current setting is still the Age of Mortals, so 5th age fans are happy. Getting rid of Paladine and Takhisis takes the spotlight off of them, and forces the authors to focus on the other gods, which were often overlooked.
The end result is a familiar, yet fresh dynamic.
The only problem is that the poor novelists are left trying to tie all the strings together after the CEOs are done butchering the story. Gone are the days of Chronicles when the novels are inspired by actual gaming sessions. Remember how much fun those were to read? A far cry from such as War of Souls.
The world must move forward, though. Not everyone will agree with the steps taken, but they are necessary to provide a sense of healing for a split fan base.
I’ve seen many people who agree with Maofeng in my time, while I also see a number of 5th age die-hards and those who enjoy more of an entirety of the setting.
There was a time when I fit the stereotype of the “4th age fan”. I didn’t care for SAGA, the 5th Age, etc. etc. As time went on, I got involved with the Nexus and the Whitestone Council, and so I made it a point to educate myself on the 5th age. I also learned some of the background of why the designers approached certain things in a certain way, which also opened my eyes some.
What I discovered was that there were a lot of gems in the materials. Tons of neat roles (kender nightstalker, Solamnic Auxiliary Mage, etc.). I also discovered that I like a lot of the new elements better with the background of the old elements with it. This way, it feels more like building upon the setting.
I’ve often said that Dragonlance is very much like Star Wars in that it is a setting of settings. We all have our favorite eras to play in, and we don’t always like every era.
That’s okay. We don’t have to all agree on which part of the setting we enjoy. We’re all Dragonlance fans here, and that’s what matters most.
As I mentioned, the whole money-based corporate theory behind recent changes was just that - a theory. I had no idea DoSF was supposed to put the cap on Krynn! Good God. My beloved world, so close to the edge of extinction. Sure, it seemed pretty final at the end of the book, but I don't think I ever really had the idea that was IT - no more anything after DoSF.
I think we can all agree that Krynn is much better off having escaped being the setting of the ill-conceived D&D Movie.
Changing gears a little, all this talk of the changing face of Krynn has me wondering: what can we expect from the upcoming adventure trilogy from Coyle? It's hyped as the second coming of the Chronicles-inspired DL__ adventures, and I all but slaver for it, hoping it will be in fact what it is touted as, rather than more of the shading-with-gray stuff that Sovereign's trying out with the new Krynn. Has there been any official word on it? I've checked the SPress DL site, but haven't seen a lot about it yet....
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Both Summer Flame and WoS felt very rush, lacking detail and character development. I understand this with Summer Flame but I don’t know what went wrong with the WoS. Maybe the authors where to busy trying to “fix” what they didn’t like from the Fifth Age to bring DL up to date and to their liking.
In the case of Summer Flame, that was originally supposed to be a trilogy. It was cut down to one single novel, so felt rushed. I know I was disappointed that the Knights of Takhisis didn’t get more of the spotlight. I felt that could have been expanded upon.
I thought War of Souls was pretty good overall. Sure, a few parts could have been done better, but no novel is perfect.
Originally posted by Maofeng
I wondered if the very DL Community advisor would comment, and I'm glad you did.
Not a problem.
As I mentioned, the whole money-based corporate theory behind recent changes was just that - a theory. I had no idea DoSF was supposed to put the cap on Krynn! Good God. My beloved world, so close to the edge of extinction. Sure, it seemed pretty final at the end of the book, but I don't think I ever really had the idea that was IT - no more anything after DoSF.
Look at the latest Dragon where they do the campaign classics. Each article has a bit of history behind the world. In a couple of instances (Dark Sun and I think the Realms), they mention how the setting was designed to be the next big hit as they didn’t know how long that Dragonlance would last.
I think we can all agree that Krynn is much better off having escaped being the setting of the ill-conceived D&D Movie.
Heh heh. ;)
Changing gears a little, all this talk of the changing face of Krynn has me wondering: what can we expect from the upcoming adventure trilogy from Coyle? It's hyped as the second coming of the Chronicles-inspired DL__ adventures, and I all but slaver for it, hoping it will be in fact what it is touted as, rather than more of the shading-with-gray stuff that Sovereign's trying out with the new Krynn. Has there been any official word on it? I've checked the SPress DL site, but haven't seen a lot about it yet....
The wait is almost over. Key of Destiny comes out in January, according to Sov. Press.
Dragonlance, it seems, is a world of surprises. The novels were meant to support the games, yet they are among the top novels (if not THE top) that WotC sells. As the novel line succeeded, the gaming line didn’t do so well. Don’t get me wrong, there are some good products out there, but I feel they could have been done a lot better.
I think Sovereign Press has the right idea on how to approach the gaming line. They have era-specific sourcebooks, such as Age of Mortals and the upcoming War of the Lance. They have adventures. They have books on organizations, such as Towers of High Sorcery. There’s been some talk about a Holy Orders of the Stars book out sometime (next year?), and I think someone at Sov. Press mentioned a book on knights (Hazzah!) on the Dragonlance-L mailing list. Plus the Bestiary of Krynn, and there’s some talk about an Atlas.
Here’s to the future, my friends. May it be glorious and bright, and usher in a new golden age for Dragonlance.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Baron - what exactly is the Curse of Baron?
Hmm… my presence here has not been infuriating enough… my job here is not complete.
It is an old high school inside joke. I have a name badge that reads
“Baron the Curse”
“High Chancellor of the Squirrel Nation Free Republic”
It was originally Dando the Curse, but who pays money for “Dando”?
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I can’t imagine W&H came up with the idea to have the gods leave Krynn!
Far be it from me to challenge your beliefs, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that no one in the RPG dept. of TSR had anything to do with it.
The Fifth Age was just a marketing ploy to sell the SAGA System. To its defense Fifth Age products gave us the highest quality Dragonlance products to date, barring Age of Mortals.
Thanks for the compliment, but your first statement is untrue. The Fifth Age was our best attempt to make the mess left in the wake of DoSF gameable. The SAGA System was developed expressly for Dragonlance. If anything, the game system was a marketing ploy to bring the setting back as an RPG. (Trampas provided part of the reason for why a new system was added.) Another element was the fact that the marketing dept. was certain that DL was dead as a gameline. The only way everyone would agree to give it another shot was if it was done with a complete "fresh start." The combo of DoSF and a new game system was that fresh start. (Me, I proposed an ADnD Lite sort of mechanic, but SAGA won out. I also proposed starting much closer to the events of DoSF, but the consenses was that gamers want magic in their fantasy games, so we needed an environment where magic was being "rediscovered.")
(Oh, for those who don't know... I was intimately involved with the SAGA System and the Fifth Age game products from beginning to end. Even while I was not at TSR [spending about a year freelancing and working for WEG, before going to WotC after the buy-out], I was helping out, so I'm not just talking out of my hat.)
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
Another element was the fact that the marketing dept. was certain that DL was dead as a gameline. The only way everyone would agree to give it another shot was if it was done with a complete "fresh start." The combo of DoSF and a new game system was that fresh start. (Me, I proposed an ADnD Lite sort of mechanic, but SAGA won out. I also proposed starting much closer to the events of DoSF, but the consenses was that gamers want magic in their fantasy games, so we needed an environment where magic was being "rediscovered.")
I think the problem in all of this is that Dragonlance was very much a D&D world, which I think is why SAGA didn’t do better. It wasn’t that SAGA was bad as a game system. In fact, it was award-winning.
The time jump, IMO, was a bad idea. Instead of discovering magic, it was just suddenly there. I think the gaming products were much better about the discovery of magic than the novels were. I remember being a bit disappointed in Dragons of a New Age, in that magic was suddenly there, and some great storylines were lost because of it.
Steve, thanks for your insights, good sir.
Now, if it was W&H decision to have the gods leave Krynn, even if they had in mind for this to be the last Dragonlance book, it was a dumb idea in my opinion. I have to agree with Dragonhelm, the time jump was a bad idea. I liked the SAGA System for Marvel Super Heroes, so I can’t say it sucked, but I think Fifth Age would have done better if it were at least compatible with AD&D. I’m no award winning writer myself, but I don’t think Jane Rabe novels help the setting any. Aside from that, Fifth Age was the greatest period for Dragonlance products. The products where consistent, detailed, and well thought off, I hope the new team fulfils the same standards Fifth Age adhere to.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
I’m no award winning writer myself, but I don’t think Jane Rabe novels help the setting any.
I'm certain Jean was following the decisions from up above as well. We see later on in the Dhamon Saga a vast improvement.
Jean's a really nice lady.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Thanks, but I already got it at Noble Knight Games, an online out-of-print store. The box-set is excellent!
Definitely one of my favorites.
I think it's Citadel of Light (if not Heroes of Hope) that has a write-up on Mina...
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
(Oh, for those who don't know... I was intimately involved with the SAGA System and the Fifth Age game products from beginning to end. Even while I was not at TSR [spending about a year freelancing and working for WEG, before going to WotC after the buy-out], I was helping out, so I'm not just talking out of my hat.)
Hey Steve,
Are you at liberty to disclose what you know about other possible story directions for characters such as Soth and the events that led into the War of Souls?
Its my understanding that this used to be touchy information but am curious as to whether or not enough time has passed that it can be discussed openly. Would be very interesting to hear.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Definitely one of my favorites.
I think it's Citadel of Light (if not Heroes of Hope) that has a write-up on Mina...
It’s Citadel of Light, and let me tell you this surprise the hell out of me. I thought Mina was a character created by Weis and Hickman. But even her mysterious arrival at the Citadel appears on her write up. I can appreciate her better now in the War of Souls. Nicely done.
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Cool, a response from Steve Miller. You just validated the hassle I recently when through looking for the only Fifth Age supplement I was missing, The Citadel of Light (I got banned from ever returning to a gaming store on that quest). Excellent job by the way. Well worth it.
Thanks for the kind words. "Citadel of Light" is one of my personal favorites, as far as things I've written for print.
But why did you get banned from a game store? That's got to be a story worth telling!
Originally posted by Kai Lord
Hey Steve,
Are you at liberty to disclose what you know about other possible story directions for characters such as Soth and the events that led into the War of Souls?
Its my understanding that this used to be touchy information but am curious as to whether or not enough time has passed that it can be discussed openly. Would be very interesting to hear.
Sorry, but I think it best if I keep my silence on the What Might Have Beens. Particularly since the majority of folks are happy with where things have ended up.
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
Sorry, but I think it best if I keep my silence on the What Might Have Beens. Particularly since the majority of folks are happy with where things have ended up.
None of us here speak for the majority, you know.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Dragons of Summer Flame was meant to be an ending for Krynn. They thought it had its day.
Hmm. Why is it that every time *I* say this, I'm ripped a new one?
Originally posted by The Udjat
Because we don't like you. ;) j/k, ofcourse.
*shrug*
This isn't the first time somebody other than myself has said that DoSF was "The End" of DL, and nobody questions it.
I bring it up, and I'm obviously accusing W&H of being liars, don't believe the rumors you read, I have a faulty memory, etc, since W&H themselves have said otherwise regarding DoSF.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
I bring it up, and I'm obviously accusing W&H of being liars, don't believe the rumors you read, I have a faulty memory, etc, since W&H themselves have said otherwise regarding DoSF.
Some people claim they’ve heard W&H say it one way, and other people claim they’ve heard W&H say it another. I want to say I heard that from Tracy himself, but it’s been a couple of years.
Don’t worry, Craig. It may just be your audience. If you said something like that on the AFDL, I’m sure they would be lighting the torches.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Don’t worry, Craig. It may just be your audience. If you said something like that on the AFDL, I’m sure they would be lighting the torches.
Well, yes, afdl is one example from recent memory, although it was only one individual who, ahh, replied.
It's happened on the mailing list as well... with the same individual, no less, among others (including either Margaret or Tracy iirc).
Originally posted by Writer of Stuff
Thanks for the kind words. "Citadel of Light" is one of my personal favorites, as far as things I've written for print.
But why did you get banned from a game store? That's got to be a story worth telling!
Here is the narrative.
I rarely a have pleasant shopping experience at this gaming store because they are very skilled at making their costumer feel like thieves and it’s a long drive from where I am. So I call first asking for the Citadel box set. They have it!
I go there with a friend and browse the store to find the box-set squash between two hardcover books. I ask an employee if it is mark down. I am directed to the manager. He gives me this holier than thou look and asks me to make him an offer. I say $15.00. He says no and preaches about the ways of retail. I work retail my offer was good.
I tell them they suck and leave with my friend. After all I was not told in the phone the product was damage. Here is the Twilight Zone part. The manager being a tall fit man rushes outside screaming profanities after us I can’t say here in front of children just inside the store! My friend and I face him off and he makes a gesture to punch me but holds back. After minutes of screaming and tension on the edge of physical violence we cowed him and he goes inside.
I go home, log on, and find the box-set at Noble Knight Games in Mint condition for $14.92. I write e-mail to the owner of the establishment about his manager’s behavior. The owner writes back stating that he agrees with is partners respond, stating that they are not a flea market and that my friend an I are banned from their store.
We only have two gaming stores down here. Thankfully am I 10+ year customer with the other store.
But, quite frankly, the idiot owner and his manager should've been thankful to get $15 for a boxed set that routinely goes for under $10 on eBay, particularly if it's damaged.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Hmm. Sounds like a store not worth shopping at.
But, quite frankly, the idiot owner and his manager should've been thankful to get $15 for a boxed set that routinely goes for under $10 on eBay, particularly if it's damaged.
Very Bizarre store. The owner of my local gaming store, who is the only store in town, was grateful to get any money at all for the 5th Age stuff that had been sitting there for years.
Of course, he did give me a black look when I tried to trade the stuff back in. ;)
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Don’t worry, Craig. It may just be your audience. If you said something like that on the AFDL, I’m sure they would be lighting the torches.
Yeah, Craig, that's what I figured was it was most likely the medium in which you chose to say that...the AFDL or maybe even the DL-L...a comment like this could start something. But usually not here. :D
Originally posted by Maofeng
Changing gears a little, all this talk of the changing face of Krynn has me wondering: what can we expect from the upcoming adventure trilogy from Coyle? It's hyped as the second coming of the Chronicles-inspired DL__ adventures, and I all but slaver for it, hoping it will be in fact what it is touted as, rather than more of the shading-with-gray stuff that Sovereign's trying out with the new Krynn. Has there been any official word on it? I've checked the SPress DL site, but haven't seen a lot about it yet....
*hmmms and chuckles* I dunno if I'd claim it's the second coming of the Chronicles-inspired DL adventures, as it's nearly impossible to compete with a "classic" and although the adventures will see some major changes in the world, it's not quite as wide-ranging as the "changes" seen in the original trilogy ;)
That said, the idea of the adventures is to create an epic (notice, lower-case, not EPIC level adventures!) adventure that will explore places of Krynn not normally explored in great detail, giving players & DMs a hint of how things have changed following the War of Souls, and allow the players to have a hand in events that will have an impact on the world for generations to come... to make them truly memorable heroes whose "legends" will live on for some time to come ;)
*chuckles* Whether I've succeeded or not has yet to be seen, but soon hopefully
Christopher