For example: a renegade of high level it´s catch by the Wohs, and it is forced to unite the organization, and he is not a specialized wizard, so: what about specialization rules??.
We can also take the example of a wizard that wants to change the color of his robe. He was thought to dress a specific robe, so: what about his (for example) white robes specialization.
Do wizards who take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class have to specialize?
Wizards who take the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class may elect to be “generalist wizards”. Age of Mortals has a sidebar on this, explaining that you do not have to specialize, but you don’t gain the benefit of enhanced specialization at 1st level.
That would be a much simpler way to do it.
I honestly don't remember my own right now, it's written down. But the Generalist Option is the simplest solution to your problem.There is a version there now that I came up with that nobody really agreed with (I think they maybe thought it too powerful) it has 20 level and goes from 1st to 20th.
The new one is a prestige class that has 15 levels (I mean you can become a WoHS at 5th level, so why should the class be only 10 levels, never understood that).
about the generalist opcion (sic)
But in general - Yes, it gets brought up pretty often, in one form or another. There are some other subjects like that, too.Yes, such wiazrds are gaining the benefit of a wider range of spells. But they are also sacrificing the stacked bonus that specialist WoHS get. This is just an extension of the whole debate in D&D in general over whether it is better to be a regular wizard or a specialist and whether one is more powerful than the other.
Another option is to relax the rules prohibiting the adoption of specialization after 1st level. In this case a wizard might begin theri career as a generalist and then become a specialist at the time of the Test. They could retain knowledge of spells from now-prohibited schools that they had already learned, but be barred from learning new ones. This is not different than the way one handles the additional barred school that specialist WoHS pick up after adopting the PrC.
Yeah you can still take the class but you do not reap the full rewards of teat class. I got the feeling that the generalist option was thrown in there because anyone who did not want to play a specialist would automatically be declared a renegade because he doesn't follow the rules of WoHS.
Yeah this can easily be solved by sayin that you can be a WoHS without taking the prestige class. So what about fighters who want to be Knights of the Rose, do they have to take the prestige class or can they do it without taking the class. But that is kinda like saying "I want to be one of you, so you won't hunt me down, I just don't want to follow your rules."
IMO if you want to be part of a sect or orginzation that is symolized by a prestige class such as Knights of Neraka, Knights of Solamnia, and WoHS then you have to take the prestige class (even if only 1 level of it).
It is very true that it is silly that a given student of magic knows from the moment they begin their studies what school of magic they should specialize in. Other than the elves, who insist on White Robes only under penalty of exile, most people don't know for sure until they take their Test. Even Palin wasn't completely sure he would wear the White Robes until then.
Now, since the PrC rules have addressed what happens when a Wizard switches orders, we can assume a "magical" rationale for the specialization: that the specialized schools of magic are actual properties of the individual gods and magic and that knowledge of the spells alone is not enough for a WoHS to be able to cast them.
So again, maybe we're just ditching the usual specialist rule and saying that someone who advanced previously as a generalist wizard becomes a specialist upon becoming a WoHS.
Originally posted by darthsylver
B]
The new one is a prestige class that has 15 levels (I mean you can become a WoHS at 5th level, so why should the class be only 10 levels, never understood that). [/b]
Because if it is 15 levels, it might as well be a core class. There is not much you do before 5th level in terms of game play. You might as well include the apprenticeship as part of the class.
I personally think the prestige class really kicks ass aside from the entrance requirements, tower resources and enhanced specialization. I personally think that the entrance requirements should be a little higher to reflect the elite status of the robed wizards. They aren't everyone who practices wizard magic, only the ones of true power. The entrance requirements are low enough now that it is almost 25% of the wizardly population.
The tower resources I'd tweak a little bit by giving a lesser version at 1st level to reflect that he is the apprentice of an archmage and not allow the full flower of the ability (and maybe a little more powerful than it is now) until the wizard could reasonably cast teleport. After all, unless the campaign takes place within a week or two of Wayreth, you don't really have an explanation of where the tower resources are coming from.
I am afraid I don't understand why the specialization was made a requirement in the first place. I think that should be chosen at 1st level, when one is just starting to learn his first spells. Obviously a person who studies necromancy will be more inclined to take "the dark side" as it were. Then if you just give a bonus to them later as a class ability it just confirms that since they've made their choice, they have a greater affinity to the darker magics.
When one commits to an order they should get the bonus to one school as a class ability, whether they are specialist or generalist. This allows three scenerios that I think we would all want represented by stats.
1) A student who studied under a dark master takes the predictable choice of choosing the black robes. +4 necromancy (specialist Necromancer, black robes)
2) A student studies the light magic of abjuration during his schooling but chooses to kill his friend Rosh during his test and fall under the sway of dark magic. +2 abjuration, +2 necromancy (specialist Abjurer, black robes)
3) A student who was eclectic in his magical skills during his schooling finally chooses to embrace dark magic (+2 necromancy, generalist mage).
Best of all, since it is a class ability, you can chance the bonus to the school if you decide to switch robes. For example, a red robe could swap out her +2 bonus to illusion spells in favour of abjuration or necromancy depending on the robes she picked.
A much better way of doing things than in the DLCS and AoMC, in my opinion.
I personally think the prestige class really kicks ass aside from the entrance requirements, tower resources and enhanced specialization. I personally think that the entrance requirements should be a little higher to reflect the elite status of the robed wizards. They aren't everyone who practices wizard magic, only the ones of true power. The entrance requirements are low enough now that it is almost 25% of the wizardly population.
So are you saying that only 25% of the Wizard population are WoHS? Is this before or after the Chaos war.
Because if it is before then IMO you are way off. if only 25% of the Wizard population are WoHS then there would be 3 renegade wizards for every 1 WoHS. And there is no way that Ansalon has this many renegades man.
Originally posted by darthsylver
Originally posted by Ferratus
So are you saying that only 25% of the Wizard population are WoHS? Is this before or after the Chaos war.
Because if it is before then IMO you are way off. if only 25% of the Wizard population are WoHS then there would be 3 renegade wizards for every 1 WoHS. And there is no way that Ansalon has this many renegades man.
No, I mean 25% of the wizards are powerful enough (of sufficient level) to have already passed the test. I think that the vast, vast majority of wizards on Krynn did not belong to the conclave, being dabblers or lacking sufficient talent for true power.
I've always been kinda on the fence about the WoHS class. I like it the way it is, but I think it needs some distinct adjustment - I like the specialization, and I think at least some should be required - Even if you go in as a generalist, I think it makes sense to pick a school to specialize in and a school to drop (from the others) upon joining. Someone brought this up (Maofeng?), that it makes sense for the Orders to guard their higher level spells, which is where some of this restriction makes sense - Not so much representing the mage's focus, but the order's focus. Jealously guarded secrets. I think mages should lose a school from each of the opposing schools to represent such, leaving that third prohibited school up to free choice. A little more freedom.
I think Maofeng also proposed a wizard being allowed to remain generalist until entering the orders, when he/she could select all the specializations at once. This is another good idea. I think it encourages becoming a specialist, which I think is in tune with the favlor - It's less constricting.
So there's a lot of ways to go with this, basically. Everyone's gonna want to do it their own way, I think.
Because if it is 15 levels, it might as well be a core class. There is not much you do before 5th level in terms of game play. You might as well include the apprenticeship as part of the class.
I think making the WoHS a core class wouldn't be such a bad idea. If they choose not to Test, just give them a free cross-over into renegade wizardhood from apprenticeship, since they are really much the same thing. I think both KoS and WoHS used to be set up like this, no? For the first three levels you were a basic ftr or m.u., then you got the good stuff. I think we have problems because we're trying to fit the round circles of WoHS (and KoS) into the square shapes of prestige classes as we know them in 3.5.
I personally think the prestige class really kicks ass aside from the entrance requirements, tower resources and enhanced specialization. I personally think that the entrance requirements should be a little higher to reflect the elite status of the robed wizards. They aren't everyone who practices wizard magic, only the ones of true power. The entrance requirements are low enough now that it is almost 25% of the wizardly population.
Um, that's an awful lot of wizards of power, isn't it? I think what the WoHS, and the authors writing them, had in mind when they set the bar at 3rd was 1. to avoid making people wait interminably to get to what is a very important, common, basic class in DL, and 2. to avoid seeing lots of "apprentices" running around unsupervised who could lob fireballs at people! If you want to, set the bar at fourth, but as soon as you allow 5th level apprentices, you'd better be prepared for havoc.
The tower resources I'd tweak a little bit by giving a lesser version at 1st level to reflect that he is the apprentice of an archmage and not allow the full flower of the ability (and maybe a little more powerful than it is now) until the wizard could reasonably cast teleport. After all, unless the campaign takes place within a week or two of Wayreth, you don't really have an explanation of where the tower resources are coming from.
Is this the thing about WoHS being able to basically find any spells they want in the library, gain unlimited use of a fully-stocked lab, etc.? I think limiting that would be wise. Otherwise, you would find your young WoHS making very frequent pilgrimages to the nearest Tower - every other level, so they could go inscribe every known spell of that level to their books. Or at least all of them they consider worth having. It's a pretty powerful asset to place at the disposal of a mage, and I'm in agreement that there should be a few thresholds to cross before you get there.
I am afraid I don't understand why the specialization was made a requirement in the first place.
Well, you have to look at how the WoHS evolved, and how they are supposed to be all about regulating magic among mortals, limiting, making sure no one has all the cookies all at once. Renegades are dangerous because they potentially have access to all spells all at once - no one is standing over them doling out knowledge with a careful eye out for grandiose dreams of godhood, enslavement, etc.
I like the PrC system. It is, by far, the best fit to date for how to handle this out of all three editions. There's bugs still (like this specialization discussion we're having). But overall it works better than the 1E and 2E scenarios. It's probably true that the ratio is as discussed. It has been said many times that most people on Ansalon who study magic just want a few spells to help them with their lives. Many (in previous ages) were more than willing to forego advancement and being able to cast 3rd or higher level spells rather than take the Test. A few simple spells were more than enough for their needs.
The PrC system works in my opinion. It allows for things like people advancing for levels as a fighter (in the case of Knights) or as a wizard and being able to "switch" classes without starting over again, a big flaw in the old dual-class system.
Technically a player wasn't obliged to become a WoHS. He could stay a (renegade) magic-user as long as he managed to stay off the Order's radar. It's not like they got an alarm signal every time a wizard crossed the 5th level threshhold. But being a WoHS offered many perks that incented mages to want to join, beyond just not being hunted.
Things like the libraries and such aren't unbalancing in my opinion. This is because a good DM will keep players too busy to spend all their time hanging out at the Towers. Remember Chronicles ? How many opportunities did Raistlin get to take a Tower break during the War of Lance? Unless you let your party break up and spread out across Ansalon after every adventure, then odds are they won't have much time to spend in the Tower library copying every spell on Krynn into their spellbooks.
Krynn has always been very alignment-focused. The Orders were a way of getting players to role-play their characters' motivations into the actual class of their character.
In addition, other prestige classes are certainly possible - archmage is one of these - and would further allow players to set their mages aside from the standard ranks of WoHS.
I also think it's notable that there's nothing really wrong with the screening process of the wizards re: power, as Terry has intimated. With both the Test and 4 levels of wizard under your belt, you're already in that small population of worthies who can take the PrC. Most of Ansalon's mid-to high-level wizards are WoHS, not regular wizards or renegades.
The Towers of High Sorcery book comes out in spring 2004, and should have a whole lot of additional information, clarification, expansion and inspiration for wizards and those who have anything at all to do with them.
Cheers,
Cam