Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Charles_Phipps Dec 23, 2003 16:12:19	Hey guys, I need help since I haven't read the Kingpriest Trilogy, I am disregarding the entirety of the Dark Queen Portrayal of the King priest, and I definitely lean towards Paladin's description of the KP as a good man Only dangerously misguided Basically I'd like help in making a campaign built around the King Priest's return and how to handle it, what should be done, and what peoples reactions to the man should be. It's set during the War of Souls. These are just speculations so feel free to give ideas completely independent of him... I'm thinking the King priest was not only a great priest but also the greatest wizard alive (I'm leaning towards Sorcerer actually) after possibly Fistantanlius. He's just "that brilliant" so to speak, a sort of Caesar/Einstein hybrid. Maybe 30/30th level. But my basic idea is that the players as part of the trial of one of their own (described elsewhere on the board) get sent into the War of Souls future for this campaign. My idea is Paladin's death has freed the Kingpriest from his imprisonment in Paladin's plane of existence and he's more or less left his 'heavenly reward' to return to Krynn. I'm thinking the Kingpriest's Doctrine should reflect the idea of 'good' as most people practice it actually rather than the Inquisition Catholicism presented elsewhere Tenants of the King Priest heresy * Evil is not the equal of Good nor is Neutrality * Good can exist without evil or neutrality and is in fact a preferrable state * There is no excuse to suffer evil to exist * Those whom stand in the way of destroying evil are in ere, they may be good people but they are acting foolishly even if they have just cause. * Mercy is important as is forgiveness but they must be extended to the repenentent not idly Quite simply the Kingpriest sees Takhasis and the Evil Gods as enemies that must be destroyed at all costs (well at least partially there now) with attempts to protect them putting their lives over the billions potentially they will harm in the future. The Gods of Neutrality are party to their crimes and the Gods as well with no life (not even a gods) more important than another. You can see the hubris as well as the frighteningly seductive nature of the philosophy (the players may even agree) I was thinking the Kingpriest discovering the Greygem uses it as a channel and with 5 similarly minded Gold Dragons he merges them together and creates a "false paladin" in the sky who shares his ideals. Basically 'ressurecting' the god while failing to see he never existed in the first place and DRASTICALLY throwing the balance out of whack
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 16:45:34	Even though you haven't read the last in the Kingpriest trilogy (in which the cataclysm happens), I suppose you could have thought about what effect the Kingpriest seeing the cataclysm would be. Basically, he realised he'd done wrong. If he did come back, I doubt he'd repeat his mistake. I'd also argue against him being a 60th level character, as that is absurd in any setting. He wasn't all-powerful, he was given a position of power. He only managed to raise dead the once. He was scared that he was going to lose all he'd gained constantly, which was what drove him mad enough to demand godhood. Whether he had sorcerous abilities is entirely up to each individual, but most of the time people will agree he had either divine magic or sorcery. The question only comes up because people wonder why Paladine was granting him spells. Most other spell effects could be brought about by arcane magic, but healing is solely the province of divine magic. He couldn't've been a sorcerer or mystic, since at the time there wasn't enough ambient magic to do so, but if there had been, it would make the most sense.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 16:47:16	Hate the idea - but my opinion hardly matters, really. I'm thinking you might want to make the KP a mystic - since all the true clerics disappeared a little before the cataclysm#1, and you have to assume that that meant the KP was not a true cleric. So if the guy had spells, they were either entirely arcane or they were from "within" - that is, they were mystic divine spells. Which would only make sense, since the guy wanted to be a god in his own right - I'm sure he thought quite well of himself and thoroughly enjoyed plumbing his own depths - for power. It would make him more powerful, too, since you have to assume that the moon magic gods and all the other gods around would have nothing to do with granting this guy power - he would HAVE to generate it all himself.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 16:55:08	I really have to type faster. I find that too often I start replying to a post and by the time I'm done, someone else has already made my point for me. Sometimes better, too. It is a great point about the ambient magic, though - allegedly, it was not great enough at the time of the KP to support sorcerors and mystics - which is why you didn't see any around. Maybe you'll just have to make the guy some sort of epic level Crowd-Worker, or whatever that strange little prestige class in DLCS is called - Mr. Charisma.
#5 baron_the_curse Dec 23, 2003 17:06:29	30th/30th Level what??? I don't think this Kingpriest is going to fly. Especially with the return of the Gods shortly after. And since is during the War of Souls, and Takhisis is the only God, he can be 100th/100th and it won't matter. She will crush him with her pinky. Sorry, I don't like it either.
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 17:21:17	You'd have to explain why Mishakal and the gods of Good wouldn't squash him like a bug. The gods of Evil and Neutrality certainly wouldn't object. Also, he carries a bit of a stigma. His philospohy would lose some of it's seductive appeal due to the fact that everyone remembers what happened the last time everyone went along with him. He might be able to sway people not familiar with him, but the Knights of Solamnia, the elves, most of the non-human races he once persecuted and probably people in parts of southern Ansalon would all treat his return with only slightly less hostility than they would to say, a possible ressurection of Malys. It could have been pulled off before the War of Souls. He sure would have lapped up that whole "One God" business and Takhisis could have played him like a violin. But then the whole thing gets repetitive with Mina.
#7 Charles_Phipps Dec 23, 2003 18:13:25	Actually I might want to point out since Paladin is dead that means Takhasis is dead as well. By "During War of Souls" it would be during the immediate thereafter. He might return at their height and see Takhasis's ravages at their worst.... That might in fact work better for the campaign if the King Priest wanders about doing good works (Takhasis maybe had his soul as part of the bargain for the Cataclysm and thinks she can corrupt him into the "one God" business). It might also be interesting if his 'seductive philosophy' actually is increased in the wake of yet another "evil binge" by a God of evil that the gods of good were powerless to affect. I mean think about it....good independent of the gods! Re: The King Priest's levels I for one have never saw a reason to be restrictive in levels. Fistantanalius was 36th level and if he taught the kingpriest (nearly) everything he knew then said being might have gained such great power. He might have achieved heights unparralleled by mortal man. It's the KINGPRIEST after all, one of the most legendary beings of all time in Krynn. If you object to the levels feel free to give me some other thoughts, just realize the Party is composed entirely of 21st through 25th level characters with only one 15th as the 'side kick' redrobed daughter of one. (We earned our EXP by the way from gaming since the original chronicle) Re: Mishakal and company Since when has Mishy been about 'smiting'? I'm sorry but I would think that the gods of 'good' would not simply strike him down for being a man whose simply well intentioned but wrong if they suffer to live people like Raistlin Majere. Krynn is not exactly a world where the gods step down and kill anyone whom catches their fancy Also he'd probably have the backing of his False Paladine in such a case though I may drop that point or have the players thwart it since the False Paladine would have Gilean support Mina creating a false Takhasis or something akin
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 18:25:13	Paladine is not dead, simply mortal. If Takhisis had his soul, there would be no reason for him to be brought back to life before she died. Most people will agree that even though the Kingpriest had power, it would have been mostly political. His powers were seen during an Age of Krynn that had very little otehr divine magic - even the 'light' spell was a phenomenon. Legendary is not necessarily epic (look at 'epic dragonlance is it feasible' thread). The Gods of Good have, of course, been privy to smiting. Look, for example, at the cataclym, where all the Gods, Light, Twilight and Darkness, worked together to punish every single false believer. The Kingpriest fell monumentally to the trap that 'I am good, so what I think is what is right'. If your characters have been adventuring since the War of the Lance, aren't they all incredibly old by the end of the War of Souls? That's about 80 years...
#9 Charles_Phipps Dec 23, 2003 18:41:16	Not really, First of all the premise above states this would be a Time-Travel short campaign where the players visit the alternate future/possible destined one as the Gods of Krynn acting as usual godly send them forward to some point when needed. It would be basically an extension of the Trial of Valance the Black Wizard whose called to answer before the Three Pantheons of the Gods his crimes (Specificially as a Black Robe his actions in protecting the Balance, involving the Good Dragons in the War, and as Raistlin's apprentice being insturmental in a plot to kill Takhasis for what Nuthari accuses his chosen champion of in 'a secret loyalty to good') Its too complicated to explain really but it makes sense I can assure you in the context of the game even one lasting so long as the original modules. The actual timeline has just finished "Time of the Twins" and the game was started 10 years before the War of the Lance game time. At least two characters won't also matter their age wise as both Valance the Wizard and the Voice of Paladin Kalos are Silvastani elves. The Knight may be getting along in his years but for this adventure is still not to the point of being unable to be heroic, he's just the Regent of the Solamnic kingdom and taking a break from his heroic adventuring. He'll no doubt be dead by then But I think Leena the Red Robe might still be alive since she's a half-elf and her lover Valance has been working on longeviety potions for her (though I have limits on how effective those can be) Re: The Kingpriest's escape Quite true so he'd only escape when she was dead if I used that idea.....I may want to stick then with Paladin's death and him leaving heaven then. But if Takhasis had him he might be alittle messed up, confused, and it's also possible she could have released him on other terms.... He might have been made young and had his memory wiped or something, becoming a disciple to Goldmoon or otherwise important figure only to discover his heritage as he 'grows into his own'
#10 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 19:11:41	*Kingpriest trilogy BIG spoiler* Well, in this trilogy, the Kingpriest was always a kind hearted, faithful cleric of Paladine... until he got power. He was never meant to rule, and it was this that made him do all the bad things in the name of good. He was scared. If he never had the power, he would never have been so bad. *Not spoilers* Also, if you wipe his mind, he won't have the experience that is effectivly having more levels. Sorry, I missed the time travel bit. Wouldn't they be sent to the alternate future Tas went to before Takhisis stole the world? Wouldn't longevity potions be necromantic in nature, and therefore the domain of black robes?
#11 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 20:36:52	Just a small bit about Raistlin, since he was brought up to support the theory that Krynnish deities don't smite those that should be smote (smitten? smited? heh)... As many could tell you, Raistlin might never have lived through his Test 1. if it weren't for Fistandantilus, of course, and 2. if he were not deemed VERY useful to the efforts of the Goods and Neutrals in the War of the Lance. Heck, PaladinE taught the guy spells himself! After the War, of course, Raistlin was too darned powerful, and he was time-traveling, which probably makes him hard to pin down for some good old fire-and-brimstoning, on his way to take out TakhIsis. It's not that PaladinE considered him a threat and didn't act, but rather that he knew Raist would be a big asset in the War against TakhIsis - and TakhIsis knew Raist had a dark side that she hoped she could exploit and maybe get some use out of him herself. That's my understanding of the whole affair, anyway, which doesn't really lend much credence to the thought that the Gods of Krynn are weinies when someone nasty turns up.
#12 Charles_Phipps Dec 24, 2003 0:58:08	Re: The Characters The Red Robe in question is Leena Dragonslay (yes, the name was a deliberate make of a certain character but she transcended the origin) whom is Valance the BLACK ROBES lover so the access to the longievity being black would not be especially troubling to her I imagine. Though the way Valance makes them...distilling the immortality from elves (100 years=1 year of life) that have offended Valance's sense of morality, twisted as it is, certainly would explain why it's black robes who have the most benefits from such. I doubt he'll let her in on that secret though. The essential idea behind the story: I want this campaign to be a set up for the War with Chaos in some respects as the PCs as more or less heroes on the level of Huma and Raistlin and company are worthy for a divine audience or two now and then. The goal of the story is to illustrate that "good" does not always necessarily translate into what is best for people nor does evil necessarily always translate into what is worse for people. For Paladine evil must exist or people's choice to be good is meaningless. (I'm thinking the Voice of Paladin and Solamnic Knight will be tempted badly) Nuthari is trying to illustrate to his wayward son (though Val only suspects) that Takhasis is the only one of the Gods of evil without SOME higher sense of self (or trick him into believing that she and they do both or just him if necessary) I'm not sure what really the Neutral Gods would be trying to teach the greatest of all Red Robed Wizards alive cursed nevertheless with a complete lack of seriousness (but whose love did indirectly save Gilean and the Balance) The problem facing me of course is the god's don't KNOW they are unwittingly preparing the characters for such and it might be the Action of the High God or it'll just be DM's fiet that the setup for the war of Chaos starts here with probably them learning some facts about him and the strange nature of good/evil on Krynn. I'd even be willing to change the entire setting and Kingpriest parts to better illustrate the above points but this is what I came up with really at the moment. Re: The memory loss True, basically it's just a deux es machine that would leave him with great abilities but no knowledge of whom I am to create an 'instant messiah' I suppose.... Perhaps Takhasis would use him to start the One God Religion with Mina because she'd prepare to be good. Now regarding the future... True it probably would be an alternate future but even the gods are only partially aware of what you'll get in time travel I think...Future Fizban asking past Fizban and all that. What they might see may not be what is real. Still it'd be interesting to play with what an alternate Krynn might be like. My goal is to try and tempt the Black Robe into becoming a member of the Knights of Takhasis since they pretty much founded ambigious evil morality on Krynn that would appeal to him (difficult since he ranks slightly behind Huma and Tanis half-elven in mortals who've vexed her) and possibly the rebuilding of Ishtar to be the goal of the Voice of Paladine The Regent of Solomnia and Neutral Girl (whose daughter is the 15th level character) I don't yet have goals for.