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Dark Powers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Dec 23, 2003 19:46:21 Am I the only one who liked Van Ricten's idea the the Vistani might actually be the Dark Powers? I think it would be so ironic that the keepers of the cage were themselves imprisoned and persecuted by their pets!
#2
zombiegleemax
Dec 23, 2003 21:49:57 It would be ironic, indeed,,

1. The vistani have the power to leave ravenloft. They have done so in the past (when Strahd imprissoned one for theft0.

2. To the Best of my knowldege, not even the designers have known who the dark powers are, that is, the designers did not name/form them, other than dark laughing shadows that annoy Strahd in the novels.

In Your Own Campaign, its possible, and would be fairly cool.
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 23, 2003 22:14:11 The RL DMG said it clearly.

The Dark Powers are whatever individual DMs want them to be in their campaign. They can be good, evil, one, many or even Vistani. It's up to you.
#4
zombiegleemax
Dec 23, 2003 23:39:31 It's just that from what I've seen, people usually take one of two views: many want them undefined as suggested in most canon works, Or many others want them to be all powerful beings, usually of an evil alignment.

In VGTTV, Van Richten proposed that the Vistani might actually be the dark powers. And for some reason, as near as I can tell, everyone has immediately dismissed this idea.

I just think that theory has some amazing possibilities. Especially for a background story detailing how this came about.

What kind of curse are the Vistani under and why.

I've always felt that the dark powers are neutral (although with some sadistic sense of justice).

I mentioned this idea on the net years ago, and noone seemed to take it seriously.
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 23, 2003 23:48:46 Besides, maybe Van Richten got too close to the truth! That's why an old Vistana enemy of his was recruited to deal with the good doctor!
#6
zombiegleemax
Dec 24, 2003 0:53:05 As I've mentioned in other posts I've always like the idea that Ravenloft is a beachhead into "reality". Much as we are said to be in the image of our creator so do I envision the DL...that is the DPs are also trapped. Given the rumors in the VRGttV of a war against the gods, a great Vistani King and a woman who learned secrets over time and space I've always harbored a secret desire for the DPs to turn out to be the first Dukkar who waged "war" against the gods and was sealed away. That could make the Manusa his jailkeepers who have to spend so much time in prison as a kind of penace or sacred duty. It would also explain why the Vistani do not worship any gods.

Its pretty far out there as conspiracy theories go I admit, but I do like to keep it around as a pet.

-Eric Gorman
#7
The_Jester
Dec 24, 2003 1:06:43 But then why can only a Dukkar destroy Ravenloft? And why are so many Vistani persecuted and slain?

Going on what HvF said, maybe a Dukkar is the Dark Power, and the Vistani share powers with it. Or instead of a Dukkar, THE Dukkar, the first and original one millenia ago who was responsible for the exile of the Vistani.

Or perhaps the god of the Vistani, watching pitifully as his creatures wander the lands looking for a new home he decides to make one. But being a weaker or less skilled god he cannot create all himself and must base it on other worlds. So he takes people that will not be missed or catch his interest or just happen to be wrong place, wrong time to flesh out and beta test his world until it is perfect and the Vistani can go home.
#8
zombiegleemax
Dec 26, 2003 18:27:46 Well I'm afraid I don't have my books with me so this might get muddled but I'll try to elaborate

The Vistani supposedly had a great King who led them into a great war. I think the Kaldresh were his armies followers.

If I remember correctly we also have storries about secrets about the nature of the Universe that were not meant to be known by mortals being discovered and utilized. And (a woman?) who followed in the footsteps to stop them from challenging the gods. Though success she was also shunned by the Gods because she now to had knowledge (over time/space?) she was not mean to have.

Putting the storries togther what I once distilled was (1) The King (whom I thought/think of as), an epic mortal (perhaps with his cabinet) with divinatory abilities and amazing ability to travel through space and time (that would run circles around powerful Raunies today) led what would be called the Vistani in a great struggle for mastery of the "planes." Either in direct opposition to the Gods or in quiet camapaign that would render them "obsolete". He ultimately failed due to the acts of this mysterious woman intervened. Too poweful to be destroyed he languished in a prison "outside the space and time." The visatni became a people shunned by the gods for their involvement with him.

However the lost "king" found a the beginings of a way back by creating a beach-head into reality through his pact with Stradh. Ultimately he/they/it want to consume/replace the known world. Because Ravenloft isn't a real part of the planar fabric it operates under its own rules...and is designed to expand the realms on the backs of wretches who allow themselves to fall under the influence of the DPs (through powers checks).

The Darklords are essentially all made in the Kings image - cursed, frustrated, covetous. (Nice happy well adjusted people won't give *anything* to get their Tatyana). They dont make efficient agents but they're the only tools available to the DPs. You might almost look at this as the curse on the King/DPs.

The Vistani know something about the Dark Powers. Madame Eva and the Raunies of the Manusa know their head is on the chopping block if the DPs ever get loose for the role of their ancestors in the DPs imprisonment. Though they have the power to go anywhere and could get the Vistani out of RL if they so desired they more or less have to quietly "man the walls" to keep the DP imprisoned. Much like Cold War spies and double agents they utimately tailor what (and how) they tell to Strahd in an attempt to influence his (and the Core's behavior).

Finally the Vistani know that a Dukkar - another man with their powers is destined to either free the DPs or has the potential to free the DPs. Many just know the Dukkar is an agent of destruction.

Anyhow that was what i came up with back in the day when I first got the VR guide. It had a lot of bits in I liked (for one the Vistani King could be refered to as the King in yellow). If you assume some Vistani are willing to throw in with the Dukkar/DPs in hopes of leaving RL for good it helps make more sense why there could be a band willing to serve the likes of Hykossa rather than simple insanity. Mostly like an onion its something the PCs could slowly peel away to get at a dark truth at the bottom.

I have never used this though...maybe someday.

-Eric Gorman

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 19:46:21	Am I the only one who liked Van Ricten's idea the the Vistani might actually be the Dark Powers? I think it would be so ironic that the keepers of the cage were themselves imprisoned and persecuted by their pets!
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 21:49:57	It would be ironic, indeed,, 1. The vistani have the power to leave ravenloft. They have done so in the past (when Strahd imprissoned one for theft0. 2. To the Best of my knowldege, not even the designers have known who the dark powers are, that is, the designers did not name/form them, other than dark laughing shadows that annoy Strahd in the novels. In Your Own Campaign, its possible, and would be fairly cool.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 22:14:11	The RL DMG said it clearly. The Dark Powers are whatever individual DMs want them to be in their campaign. They can be good, evil, one, many or even Vistani. It's up to you.
#4 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 23:39:31	It's just that from what I've seen, people usually take one of two views: many want them undefined as suggested in most canon works, Or many others want them to be all powerful beings, usually of an evil alignment. In VGTTV, Van Richten proposed that the Vistani might actually be the dark powers. And for some reason, as near as I can tell, everyone has immediately dismissed this idea. I just think that theory has some amazing possibilities. Especially for a background story detailing how this came about. What kind of curse are the Vistani under and why. I've always felt that the dark powers are neutral (although with some sadistic sense of justice). I mentioned this idea on the net years ago, and noone seemed to take it seriously.
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 23, 2003 23:48:46	Besides, maybe Van Richten got too close to the truth! That's why an old Vistana enemy of his was recruited to deal with the good doctor!
#6 zombiegleemax Dec 24, 2003 0:53:05	As I've mentioned in other posts I've always like the idea that Ravenloft is a beachhead into "reality". Much as we are said to be in the image of our creator so do I envision the DL...that is the DPs are also trapped. Given the rumors in the VRGttV of a war against the gods, a great Vistani King and a woman who learned secrets over time and space I've always harbored a secret desire for the DPs to turn out to be the first Dukkar who waged "war" against the gods and was sealed away. That could make the Manusa his jailkeepers who have to spend so much time in prison as a kind of penace or sacred duty. It would also explain why the Vistani do not worship any gods. Its pretty far out there as conspiracy theories go I admit, but I do like to keep it around as a pet. -Eric Gorman
#7 The_Jester Dec 24, 2003 1:06:43	But then why can only a Dukkar destroy Ravenloft? And why are so many Vistani persecuted and slain? Going on what HvF said, maybe a Dukkar is the Dark Power, and the Vistani share powers with it. Or instead of a Dukkar, THE Dukkar, the first and original one millenia ago who was responsible for the exile of the Vistani. Or perhaps the god of the Vistani, watching pitifully as his creatures wander the lands looking for a new home he decides to make one. But being a weaker or less skilled god he cannot create all himself and must base it on other worlds. So he takes people that will not be missed or catch his interest or just happen to be wrong place, wrong time to flesh out and beta test his world until it is perfect and the Vistani can go home.
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 26, 2003 18:27:46	Well I'm afraid I don't have my books with me so this might get muddled but I'll try to elaborate The Vistani supposedly had a great King who led them into a great war. I think the Kaldresh were his armies followers. If I remember correctly we also have storries about secrets about the nature of the Universe that were not meant to be known by mortals being discovered and utilized. And (a woman?) who followed in the footsteps to stop them from challenging the gods. Though success she was also shunned by the Gods because she now to had knowledge (over time/space?) she was not mean to have. Putting the storries togther what I once distilled was (1) The King (whom I thought/think of as), an epic mortal (perhaps with his cabinet) with divinatory abilities and amazing ability to travel through space and time (that would run circles around powerful Raunies today) led what would be called the Vistani in a great struggle for mastery of the "planes." Either in direct opposition to the Gods or in quiet camapaign that would render them "obsolete". He ultimately failed due to the acts of this mysterious woman intervened. Too poweful to be destroyed he languished in a prison "outside the space and time." The visatni became a people shunned by the gods for their involvement with him. However the lost "king" found a the beginings of a way back by creating a beach-head into reality through his pact with Stradh. Ultimately he/they/it want to consume/replace the known world. Because Ravenloft isn't a real part of the planar fabric it operates under its own rules...and is designed to expand the realms on the backs of wretches who allow themselves to fall under the influence of the DPs (through powers checks). The Darklords are essentially all made in the Kings image - cursed, frustrated, covetous. (Nice happy well adjusted people won't give anything to get their Tatyana). They dont make efficient agents but they're the only tools available to the DPs. You might almost look at this as the curse on the King/DPs. The Vistani know something about the Dark Powers. Madame Eva and the Raunies of the Manusa know their head is on the chopping block if the DPs ever get loose for the role of their ancestors in the DPs imprisonment. Though they have the power to go anywhere and could get the Vistani out of RL if they so desired they more or less have to quietly "man the walls" to keep the DP imprisoned. Much like Cold War spies and double agents they utimately tailor what (and how) they tell to Strahd in an attempt to influence his (and the Core's behavior). Finally the Vistani know that a Dukkar - another man with their powers is destined to either free the DPs or has the potential to free the DPs. Many just know the Dukkar is an agent of destruction. Anyhow that was what i came up with back in the day when I first got the VR guide. It had a lot of bits in I liked (for one the Vistani King could be refered to as the King in yellow). If you assume some Vistani are willing to throw in with the Dukkar/DPs in hopes of leaving RL for good it helps make more sense why there could be a band willing to serve the likes of Hykossa rather than simple insanity. Mostly like an onion its something the PCs could slowly peel away to get at a dark truth at the bottom. I have never used this though...maybe someday. -Eric Gorman