Half-giants and kreens - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Half-giants and kreens

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
evilrafael
Dec 24, 2003 14:47:22 Man, we're starting our first DnD3e Dark Sun campaign, but my planning is always stuck where half-giants and thri-kreens show up... there's something wrong here...

Am I wrong or all monsters with 2HD+ automatically start the game *at least* as 2nd level creatures/0-class level characters? For example, in a campaign where characters start in level 3, we could have in the same party:

- a human (no level adjustment) 3rd level preserver
- a mul (+1 adjustment) 1HD + 2nd level druid
- and a half-giant (or kreen) 2HD + 1st level fighter

Isn't that right? Thus, kreens and half-giants deserve level adjustment +2....... no?

Sorry, I couldn't find a previous discussion thread on this matter, maybe it happened already... *grin*
#2
flip
Dec 24, 2003 16:40:57
Originally posted by evilrafael
Am I wrong or all monsters with 2HD+ automatically start the game *at least* as 2nd level creatures/0-class level characters? For example, in a campaign where characters start in level 3, we could have in the same party:

Right. Hit dice count as character levels.

- a human (no level adjustment) 3rd level preserver
- a mul (+1 adjustment) 1HD + 2nd level druid
- and a half-giant (or kreen) 2HD + 1st level fighter

Neither the Half giant nor the mul above are correct.

The mul does not get any extra HD. At third level, he only gets two class levels.

Thrikreen and Half-giants have an LA of +1, so the character described above is actually a 4h level character.

A 3rd level party would be:
- A human presever /3 ( LA 0 + 0 HD + 3 Preserver == Character Level 3)
- A Mul Druid/2 (LA 1 + 0 HD + 2 Druid == Character Level 3)
- A Half Giant (LA 1 + 2 HD + 0 class levels == Character Level 3)

Isn't that right? Thus, kreens and half-giants deserve level adjustment +2....... no?

They both have a level adjustment of +1. Whether or not they deserve an LA of +2 is something that needs to be determined through full playtest feedback ... eyeballing it isn't going to help anymore.
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 24, 2003 16:54:05 Thanks Flip,

This had me confused as well.
#4
terendel
Dec 24, 2003 17:43:20
Originally posted by flip
They both have a level adjustment of +1. Whether or not they deserve an LA of +2 is something that needs to be determined through full playtest feedback ... eyeballing it isn't going to help anymore.

I've done some playtesting of a low-level kreen (1st level psychic warrior in a 4th level group). +1 LA adjustment feels right at that level.
#5
evilrafael
Dec 24, 2003 21:37:33 Ok Flip, that DOES make sense, and seems balanced enough, in this case alone.

However, I must point out that, casually or not, none of the sample "monsters as races" presented in the DM Guide has level adjustment lower than its HD, by the time this is happening with the kreens and half-giants.

Also, taking a look at the ogre example they give, you'll see the the HD won't stack with LA when determining character level. Their starter ogre is simply like this:

- 4 HD (LA +5) = character level 4, but still, ready to enter a 5th level party, due to his LA, not character level

With your method, ogres would start such as:

- 4HD + LA 5 = character level 9

Please check it out, for maybe I'm messing it up again
#6
player1
Dec 25, 2003 5:00:59 LA != ECL

LA + HD = ECL

1/2giants LA = +1
1/2giants HD = 2
1/2giants ECL modifier = +3
#7
evilrafael
Dec 25, 2003 9:58:34 But then what happens to the ogre in the DM guide? Check it out!
#8
player1
Dec 25, 2003 10:07:43 Well, looking at 3.5 SRD, Ogre has +2 LA (or ECL of +6).
#9
evilrafael
Dec 25, 2003 10:30:43 Damn you're right. I was looking at the DMG 3e, on 3.5 it's entirely different.

I shut my mouth

Thanks for the help guys.
#10
jon_oracle_of_athas
Dec 25, 2003 12:20:29 Glad to see you back, Player1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 evilrafael Dec 24, 2003 14:47:22	Man, we're starting our first DnD3e Dark Sun campaign, but my planning is always stuck where half-giants and thri-kreens show up... there's something wrong here... Am I wrong or all monsters with 2HD+ automatically start the game at least as 2nd level creatures/0-class level characters? For example, in a campaign where characters start in level 3, we could have in the same party: - a human (no level adjustment) 3rd level preserver - a mul (+1 adjustment) 1HD + 2nd level druid - and a half-giant (or kreen) 2HD + 1st level fighter Isn't that right? Thus, kreens and half-giants deserve level adjustment +2....... no? Sorry, I couldn't find a previous discussion thread on this matter, maybe it happened already... grin
#2 flip Dec 24, 2003 16:40:57	Originally posted by evilrafael Am I wrong or all monsters with 2HD+ automatically start the game at least as 2nd level creatures/0-class level characters? For example, in a campaign where characters start in level 3, we could have in the same party: Right. Hit dice count as character levels. - a human (no level adjustment) 3rd level preserver - a mul (+1 adjustment) 1HD + 2nd level druid - and a half-giant (or kreen) 2HD + 1st level fighter Neither the Half giant nor the mul above are correct. The mul does not get any extra HD. At third level, he only gets two class levels. Thrikreen and Half-giants have an LA of +1, so the character described above is actually a 4h level character. A 3rd level party would be: - A human presever /3 ( LA 0 + 0 HD + 3 Preserver == Character Level 3) - A Mul Druid/2 (LA 1 + 0 HD + 2 Druid == Character Level 3) - A Half Giant (LA 1 + 2 HD + 0 class levels == Character Level 3) Isn't that right? Thus, kreens and half-giants deserve level adjustment +2....... no? They both have a level adjustment of +1. Whether or not they deserve an LA of +2 is something that needs to be determined through full playtest feedback ... eyeballing it isn't going to help anymore.
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 24, 2003 16:54:05	Thanks Flip, This had me confused as well.
#4 terendel Dec 24, 2003 17:43:20	Originally posted by flip They both have a level adjustment of +1. Whether or not they deserve an LA of +2 is something that needs to be determined through full playtest feedback ... eyeballing it isn't going to help anymore. I've done some playtesting of a low-level kreen (1st level psychic warrior in a 4th level group). +1 LA adjustment feels right at that level.
#5 evilrafael Dec 24, 2003 21:37:33	Ok Flip, that DOES make sense, and seems balanced enough, in this case alone. However, I must point out that, casually or not, none of the sample "monsters as races" presented in the DM Guide has level adjustment lower than its HD, by the time this is happening with the kreens and half-giants. Also, taking a look at the ogre example they give, you'll see the the HD won't stack with LA when determining character level. Their starter ogre is simply like this: - 4 HD (LA +5) = character level 4, but still, ready to enter a 5th level party, due to his LA, not character level With your method, ogres would start such as: - 4HD + LA 5 = character level 9 Please check it out, for maybe I'm messing it up again
#6 player1 Dec 25, 2003 5:00:59	LA != ECL LA + HD = ECL 1/2giants LA = +1 1/2giants HD = 2 1/2giants ECL modifier = +3
#7 evilrafael Dec 25, 2003 9:58:34	But then what happens to the ogre in the DM guide? Check it out!
#8 player1 Dec 25, 2003 10:07:43	Well, looking at 3.5 SRD, Ogre has +2 LA (or ECL of +6).
#9 evilrafael Dec 25, 2003 10:30:43	Damn you're right. I was looking at the DMG 3e, on 3.5 it's entirely different. I shut my mouth Thanks for the help guys.
#10 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 25, 2003 12:20:29	Glad to see you back, Player1.