I've thought for a long time that, in one sense, the efforts of monster hunters like Van Richten are ultimately futile, since the Dark Powers will ensure that no matter how many "monsters" are killed, there will always plenty of vampires and werewolves and other "monsters" in Ravenloft. I think the only way in which Ravenloft's diverse peoples can ever hope to build a just and peaceful society is if they can create a society in which ALL the different types of intelligent entities, both living and undead, can coexist. I'm aware that this is a very radical notion; even the most ethical people in Ravenloft, such as Tara Kolyana, who believes that it's wrong to kill anyone, believes it's proper to destroy the undead. But I think there are some hints in the way Ravenloft has evolved over the years that suggest that ultimately my vision of a Ravenloft where everyone can get along is possible.
Can vampires and humans coexist peacefully? Most people would say no, but when I consider the rules that Ravenloft's authors have put into place, I find it almost unbelievable that vampires aren't already some of the most popular people in Ravenloft. The reason why humans hate vampires is because vampires feed off of humans. But the vampiric need for blood ceased to be a permanent obstacle to peace the moment the authors invented the concept of "shallow feeding". It is possible for vampires to feed off humans without permanently hurting them. The temporary damage done by shallow feeding can be even more mitigated by medical breakthroughs like the one Dr. Despini-Hoyer of Ungrad has made. (By the way, Despini-Hoyer is a nosferatu and the mayor of a Lawful Good town. Doesn't the alignment of a town refer to the alignment of the town's leaders? Does that mean Despini-Hoyer is a lawful good nosferaru?)
Of course, you say, just because vampires don't necessary hurt humans too much when they feed is no reason for humans to love them. If there is to be peace between vampires and humans, then the humans need to get some major benefit from the existence of vampires. Which brings us to the benefits humans get from drinking a drop of vampire blood. The Kargat has discovered that drinking a single drop of vampire blood per year can slow the rate at which a human ages by 75%! A middle aged person with 40 years to live could have their lifespan extended, and live another 160 years!!!
Have you thought of the implications of this fact? An enlightened leader like King Azalin, Count Strahd, or Baron von Kharkov could revolutionize the whole field of public health by starting a program to see that every citizen received a yearly dose of this unbelievably desirable medicine. It would certainly massively improve the level of popular support for any government which adopted such a program, even ignoring the way vampire blood charms those who drink it.
Another reason why I find it hard to believe that vampires can't live in peace with humans is that having one's blood drank by a vampire is apperantly an intensely PLEASURABLE experience. Or so Van Richten claims in his Guide to Vampires. If having your blood drank by a vampire was really that pleaurable, and the vampire wouldn't necessarily kill you, you just know that there would be plenty of humans, especially teenagers, who would be eager to have their blood drank. Sure, there would be those who would tell vampire addicts, just say no to vampires, but we all know how well that sort of message works, don't we?
I think that if humans didn't have good reason to fear vampires, then becoming a vampire would be a goal that almost all humans would aspire to. Given the way they grow in Intelligence and Charisma as the centuries pass, older vampires are really well qualified to serve as some of society's leaders. And the benefits of having a vampiric leadership would be enhanced if the best humans became vampires. For instance, think how much good a great man like Van Richten might have done in the centuries and millennia to come, if only he had become a vampire. It's really a pity that Van Richten was such an anti-vampiric bigot. Of course, it's not just humans who can be blind to the advantages of peace. If Strahd had any sense, he'd have realized by now that he would have a much better chance of gaining Tatyana's love if humans thought of Vampires as being wonderful, benevolent beings who prolonged the life of humans by centuries.
Turning to the subject of shapechangers, consider the work being done at Duskpeace Lodge (in Gaz 4) to find ways of turning afflicted lycanthropes into natural lycanthropes. Such methods would be of great interest to Jacqueline Renier, in view of her plans to confer the benefits of being afflicted wererats on the human population of Richemulot. The moonchild prestige class offers hope that someday the whole population of Richemulot may be natural wererats.
It's also nice to learn from the Duskpeace entry that some afflicted werewolves urge their natural kin to hunt humans only when hungry, and to limit their quarry to the frail and elderly. And I'm pleased to see the werewolves in Alyssum are becoming more civilized, and involved in international trade. These developments hint that someday there may be peace between werewolves and humans, though admitedly it seems further away than peace between humans and vampires.
Vampires won't get any better, as a whole, in Ravenloft for four major reasons:
1) Ravenloft is a D&D horror setting primarily about isolation, dread, and despair. Social, racial, religious, and geographic divisions (which you can find in almost every domain) are an important tool used in Ravenloft to accomplish this. While you could use other tools, division is such an important trait of Ravenloft that removing it would result in a different game altogether.
2) Ravenloft is a Gothic setting, primarily. Gothic "morality" is twisted, unfair, and mostly based on superstition, guilt, and hatred of those who are different. Many of Ravenloft's darklords didn't even do anything seriously evil, or they committed evil acts, wanted to redeem themselves, and are prevented from doing so by the Dark Powers. Good examples include Hiregaard, who's stuck being a darklord because his alter-ego is Malken, a result of a family curse, not Hiregaard's actions. Jacqueline Renier is morally superior to most wererats but she's a darklord. Easan was driven insane because he tried to do the right thing, and now he's being punished for failing a few Will saves when being driven into madness by a demonic force. (Azalin, Strahd, Godefroy, and especially Drakov, on the other hand, generally either did something bad to become darklords and/or continued to be evil after becoming darklords.)
3) If you want a more "in-game" explanation, remember that becoming a vampire almost always causes someone to become Chaotic Evil. Its not the act of drinking blood that does that; rather, becoming a vampire twists your mind and you often become a sadist that enjoys hurting people. While strong-willed vampires sometimes resist this taint, they're very rare; most people who become vampires can't resist evil. Also, most people who become vampires are actually vampire spawn under the control of a master vampire.
Other social solutions will be blocked too. Lycanthropes tend to become evil in Ravenloft, even werebears (which are normally Good.) Treants become evil and insane because they absorb taint from the soil.
4) If the problem in a particular domain is that a vampire darklord and his minions are hunting people, and you end up helping them become better people and that sort of thing stops happening, that domain will probably vanish from Ravenloft. The Dark Powers seem to only be interested in evil places.
I'm just giving reasons why it'll probably never happen in official Ravenloft. (Then again, 3.5 edition Ravenloft is certainly very different from Book of Crypts era Ravenloft, isn't it? Considering that nobody seems to really know what will happen to "S" due to changing authors and ideas on the setting, it's hard to say with certainty that Ravenloft will really always stay the same.)
Bluetspur is also a domain where monsters live 'peacefully' with humans. Again, I would never want to set foot there.
What I mean is that vampires, by their nature, would not agree to coexist with humans unless they have the position of masters and humans are slaves and cattle. Of course, after many years, these humans could turn into happy, willingly obedient slaves and cattle, but this area is better left to horror sci-fi novels.
Keg of ale, remember that Vladimar is NOT a vampire. He is a vampyre, a member of a living race that only resembles vampires because they feed on blood. It's harder to imagine humans and vampyres coexisting peacefully, because humans and vampyres are more similar to one another than humans and vampires. (In general, the greater the simularity between two species, the greater potential for competition exists between them, because they are trying to fill the same ecological niches.) Under the existing rules, humans don't benefit from drinking vampyre blood in the same dramatic way they benefit from drinking vampire blood, so there is less potential for a mutually beneficial form of symbiosis between humans and vampyres than there is between humans and vampires. Also, humans can't become vampyres in the same way they can become vampires. To see how the fact that humans can become vampires would tend to discourage conflict between humans and vampires, consider the following analogy.
Imagine you are a poor person being asked to vote on whether taxes on the rich should be raised. If you imagine that you may someday become rich yourself, you will probably be less likely to support higher taxes on the rich than you will be if you don't believe it's possible for you or any poor person to become rich. In other words, if a society has a high rate of social mobility, it tends to have less class conflict. In a society where becoming a vampire was a widely held goal, then more humans would be supporters of vampires. And the reason why its very hard to imagine any peace between humans and illithids is because there is no equivelent of shallow feeding. I suppose if illithids only 'nibbled' on brains that then fully recovered, or if they feed on the brains of those who had already died of natural causes, and had no further need for their brains, then peace between humans and illithids might be possible.
Makes a fun turning of the usual tables of Scifi horror...
As for a society where succesful humans are 'awarded' with undeath... Now that is horror.
Hence the term "brain-damaged"
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I think you're correct there. I just don't think they'll keep moving in that direction. I could be wrong though, and I personally would like a less Gothic setting, but I don't think they'd do it because most fans (as far as I know) prefer Ravenloft remaining Gothic, in name at least. (I've always seen it as a combination of Gothic, fantasy, and especially modern horror. I think the setting would be better if the core books admitted to, and built upon, the incredibly strong modern horror roots of the setting, instead of telling you how Ravenloft isn't modern horror when it has so many modern horror elements, especially in places like Timor.)
Btw, "Anno Dracula" is a good "1890's-1910's pulp genre" novel about an alternate reality where Dracula won and Victorian London is ruled by vampires (who are mostly not that bad). A very old French child vampiress and a English adventurer team up to investigate the Jack the Ripper murders. Jack the Ripper, in this case, is Jack Seward from "Dracula", whose gone insane from being bitten by Renfield and is killing vampire prostitutes. Lots of cameo appearances from other books from the era (the trademark of "1890's-1910's pulp genre"). It's an interesting read. It's also very much like Ravenloft, minus the depressing atmosphere.
However, because most vampires turn chaotic/evil automatically, they would not want to shallow feed. It's more convenient to just completely drain a victim. Plus, vampires actually enjoy killing people.
Therefore, this is all just idle, and illogical, speculation in my opinion.
Given the extraordinary value of vampire blood to humans, the most convenient way for a vampire to get a steady supply of human blood is to trade for it. If the vampire doesn't know how potent a medicine his blood really is, he's still probably stronger, faster, and smarter than the average human, so he should be able to find some mutually beneficial way to deal with humans. (You let me have some blood once a month, and in return I'll protect you from the werewolves who live over the hill) If for some reason it was impossible to trade with humans, then the next most convenient way to get some blood would be to operate the equivelent of a protection racket. (You let me have some blood once a month, and in return I won't break your knees) Actually killing a human for their blood would be the LAST resort for any vampire looking for a 'convenient' way to get blood, because every human killed would A) reduce by 1 the number of humans the vampire could get blood from in the future, and B) increase the likelyhood that the rest of the humans will unite and try to kill the vampire before he can kill them.
To make it creepier, all of the humans were actually fiercely loyal to their Mistress, without being enchanted. No longer did those going after her have to cut through a large number of various monsters. They would have to actually confront other human beings... plus a few others creatures. It lead to an uneasy feeling in the House for those going in since it is easier to think, "Oh. Monster. Kill it," than having to encounter people that can debate and argue that their Mistress is not a being a pure evil. Entering doubt into the PCs minds as to whether or not their quest is good or not is always fun.
Originally posted by Ylem
Acolyte, Chaotic Evil is not the same as Chaotic Stupid. Do you really believe any sensible vampire would think it's more 'convenient' to have to go out every night and kill someone? To face mortal danger every time you need to have a drink? (because your prey can and sometimes does fight back). To have to constantly worry that some vampire hunter is going to drive a stake through your heart while you are sleeping? Surely, if Ravenloft were designed for vampires 'convenience', then vampires would be able to go to the supermarket (open all night) and buy a few bottles of blood.
Given the extraordinary value of vampire blood to humans, the most convenient way for a vampire to get a steady supply of human blood is to trade for it. If the vampire doesn't know how potent a medicine his blood really is, he's still probably stronger, faster, and smarter than the average human, so he should be able to find some mutually beneficial way to deal with humans. (You let me have some blood once a month, and in return I'll protect you from the werewolves who live over the hill) If for some reason it was impossible to trade with humans, then the next most convenient way to get some blood would be to operate the equivelent of a protection racket. (You let me have some blood once a month, and in return I won't break your knees) Actually killing a human for their blood would be the LAST resort for any vampire looking for a 'convenient' way to get blood, because every human killed would A) reduce by 1 the number of humans the vampire could get blood from in the future, and B) increase the likelyhood that the rest of the humans will unite and try to kill the vampire before he can kill them.
What I meant was that it was idle speculation for Ravenloft, because something like this happening would go against the wishes of the Dark Powers. Actually, reading your last post, it does sound like an interesting idea. Not a complete one, of course, but still very interesting.
Just, having this in Ravenloft, in my opinion, is not a good idea.
Originally posted by Ylem
Acolyte, Chaotic Evil is not the same as Chaotic Stupid. Do you really believe any sensible vampire would think it's more 'convenient' to have to go out every night and kill someone? To face mortal danger every time you need to have a drink? (because your prey can and sometimes does fight back). To have to constantly worry that some vampire hunter is going to drive a stake through your heart while you are sleeping?
I'm not convinced that in Ravenloft most vampires live in mortal danger for their unlives. Most vampires can mop the floor with your typical 1st level commoner or even a 3rd level warrior. Since adventurers are rare, I doubt most vampires are concerned about them.
In any social setting, if you have one group with more inherent power than another, the more powerful group will be loathe to abdicate that power. If there is an opportunity to take advantage of a less powerful group, usually the more powerful people will go ahead and do so.
Also, you are proposing modern societal thought onto a feudal mindset. In the fedual mindset, no one is equal. There are those who wield the power, and those that serve. A vampire believes she should be able to take any mortal life that she wants...because it's hers by right. Mortals exist to service her. If she were to provide some kind of service for humans, such as blood or pleasure, she would be lowering herself to their level of society.
Maybe next time.
However, they could not be gods.
Originally posted by King of Atyar
The how would be for them to decide. I just developed NPC's who were powerful enough to create and control such a domain/world, and who would work together for centuries.
However, they could not be gods.
Well...okay. I am curious - what was their motivation to create RL? What goals do they have for it over several centuries of existance?
-Eric
Can vampires and humans coexist peacefully?
Have you ever played "Biting off Headz" by Cheap A$$ Games? The rules state that if you land on the same square as another dinosaur you can either bite off its head, or choose to peacefully coexist. But beware if you do choose to peacefully coexist because if a third dinosaur lands on the same square, it can bite off both your heads and IT SERVES YOU RIGHT FOR PEACEFULLY COEXISTING. I think the same principle applies to the question above.
"Vampires are by nature as cooperative as sharks, the perfect world for a vampire, in fact, would be a world in which all other vampires are dead and no one seriously believes in vampires anymore."
Originally posted by King of Atyar
The reason was kind of obvious to me, once i actually thought about it. It was/is to answer the age old question of can evil truly triumph over good? The Dark Lords are in a convenient state of denial, because even after centuries of testing, and blatantly manipulating those tests to favor evil, good still survives.
Okay. But RL is about the motives behind the action. That Strahd wants Tatyana is not nearly as interesting as why he wantes. Similiarly why do the DPs want to prove "evil" is more powerful than good? What's at stake? The DPs have gone to extra-ordinary efforts.
-Eric Gorman
Originally posted by Rotipher
Nice idea! I generally hold to a similar theory, that the DPs (which are indeed Evil IMO) have been *trying* like mad to "prove" that Good-associated ideals like faith, hope, trust and compassion are a fool's game -- in effect, to let Evil defeat Good by force of *evidence*, rather than just plain force -- but have been stymied by the fact that Good simply refuses to lay down and die. No matter how much the DPs beat up on the Good, with curses and temptations and tragedy and sheer impotence in the face of Evil, there's *always* another Van Richten stepping in to fight back, or another victim who pities the villain rather than hates them. Even the darklords generally fail to provide the "evidence" the DPs have sought for so long, because their curses (IMO) are subconscious, self-inflicted products of repressed guilt, *not* something the Dark Powers deliberately impose on them.
But there are already planes in the d20 multiverse which are totally dominated by Evil: the lower planes like the Grey Waste, Baator,and the Abyss. So even if the Dark Powers could create a demiplane that was dominated by Evil to the point where heroes like Van Richten no longer appeared, I fail to see how it would prove the superiority oif Evil over Good.
My own personal theory about Ravenloft is that it is designed as a laboratory in which new types of Evil can evolve. The advantage of this theory is that it provides a coherent explaination for why the Dark Powers sometimes seem to help both Evil and Good Characters, and at other times seem to punish both Evil and Good characters.
The Dark Powers bring to Ravenloft the Darklords, each of whom represents a different type of Evil. Each Darklord is given a Domain in which his own unique style of Evil can flourish. But the DP's confine each Darklord to his or her Domain, and also impose a curse on the Darklord. Why? Most people can't seem to understand why the DP's would want to help the Darklords in some ways, while hindering them in others, and so become confused about whether the DP's are Good or Evil. But suppose the Darklords could wander freely thoughout Ravenloft. Wouldn't they likely come into direct conflict with one another? One imagines Strahd trying to kill Ivan and Ivana, and regain control of Borca, which used to belong to Barovia, before Ravenloft was created. Or Azalin marching his undead troops into Falknovia and "liberating" the Falknovian people, who would probably be pleased to replace Drakov with Azalin as their ruler. In other words, the way the DP's confine Darklords ISN"T just a form of punishment for the Darklords. It's a way the DP's can protect the Darklords, and thus preserve the investment the DP's have made in each Darklord.
Similarily, the curses the DP"s impose on the Darklords do far more than just punish the Darklords. I think each curse is designed to shape the Darklord's development in ways the DP's find desirable. So, for instance, Azalin can't learn new magic. If Azalin didn't have this curse, he would have spent most of the last few centuries by himself learning new spells. In other words, he would have spent his time in the same way as the average lich. But Azalin isn't the average lich, he's BETTER than the average lich, precisely because he's been forced to spend his time working to find ways around his curse.
For instance,since he became a Darklord, Azalin has developed the ability to read and alter the memories of everyone in Darkon. This is an incredibly powerful and versatile new talent, and one that I think makes Azalin far more powerful than he'd be if he'd spent his time learning 30 or 40 new spells.
The same principle apples to almost all the other Darklords. Drakov can't conquer new territory.If he could conquer new territory, he'd be satisfied, and wouldn't have any reason to try and improve Falknovia's military. Because he hasn't been successful, he's been forced to allow the Ministry of Science and the Ministry of Magic to explore new military techniques he otherwise wouldn't have considered.
Alfred Timothy would like to be able just leap into battle without thinking, like every other werewolf. But his curse forces him to learn to control his emotions and THINK about how he's going to defeat his foes. In other words, his curse forces him to be far more dangerous and cunning than he really wants to be.
Strahd wants Tatanya's love. Imagine how anticlimatic it would probably be for him if he ever got Tatanya. But instead, his curse is a constant goad, making him work to improve his abilites. He can think, each time he fails to get Tatanya, if only I'd been just a little, better, faster, more persuasive, more careful...THEN I would have succeeded. Why do you think Strahd has advanced so rapidly as a necromancer? Most vampires don't advance in level so rapidly. I think he dreams of finding a spell that will make Tatanya love him.
My theory explains why the Dark Powers sometimes bring heroes to Ravenloft. How else can they test the skills of the villains who are evolving in Ravenloft?
The fact that people who aren't Darklords can move between the different Domains makes them even better for breeding new hybrid forms of Evil. Dermentlieu has become a testing ground for the conflict between Dominic and the Living Brain, since the Brain was created by Mordenheim. Their conflict forces both to refine their talents for subtle, hidden manipulation. And it makes Dermentilue even better as a breeding ground for new evil villains who use similar methods, such as Helena.
I think the first perfect illustration of how Ravenloft is well designed to allow the evolution of new forms of evil was the module, Thoughts of Darkness, in which Lyssa von Zarovitch and a Illithid master of Psionics work together to create vampire mind flayers.
Thanks for posting on my "accidental" thread, which was originally supposed to be a reply to this thread. i still don't know how i accidentally created a new thread.
Anyway, about Hell and the Abyss, etc... I think another key difference about the evil there versus everywhere else is that there has always been nothing but evil there. Good never even existed (in terms of living there) on those planes, as far as i know. So this would add to the "why" of Ravenloft. Why is it, on planes where both good and evil exist, that evil cannot totally stomp out the good? Of course the opposite is also true, why can't good stomp out all evil?
Of course these questions are at the root of all debates about good and evil. I think Chaos Theory also enters in here.
Originally posted by Ylem
So even if the Dark Powers could create a demiplane that was dominated by Evil to the point where heroes like Van Richten no longer appeared, I fail to see how it would prove the superiority oif Evil over Good.
IMO, they don't *want* heroes like Van Richten to stop appearing. They want heroes to arise on the demiplane and/or get Mist-napped there, struggle uselessly against the darkness, see how Evil foils their every endeavor, then *acknowledge* that Good is ultimately powerless against Evil and surrender to despair. If the horrors of the demiplane can goad enough innocents and heroes into openly and _willingly_ avowing that Goodness is too weak to stand up to Evil, the DPs can then cite their capitulation as "proof" that belief in Good is utterly futile. What better evidence that your opposition's ideology is false, than to convince its most-fervent adherents it's all a crock...?
As for the Lower Planes, those are little more than a distillation of Evil souls and beliefs from throughout the rest of the multiverse. All their existence proves is that if you take *only* the Evil from the Material planes, and store it all in one plane, you get some pretty Evil planes; they prove nothing about Evil's power to prevail, *when in the presence of Good*.