| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1zombiegleemaxDec 27, 2003 1:02:56 | After studying the DLCS continuously there are a few things I haven't been able to find out about the whole wizard situation in 5th age. - How organized are the WoHS in 5th age? Since the Tower of Palanthas is missing and Wayreth is hiding itself where are the WoHS based? How many are left? I get the idea from the DLCS that the WoHS are organized again and now they are having a bit of trouble coexisting with the new Sorcerers, but I also get the picture that they are scattered and disorganized with no place to call home and no real structure. - What is the situation with the renegade wizards? Are they still hunted down like dogs by the WoHS or are the WoHS so disorganized still that they have no interest or means to pursue the renegades like they used to. If you could clarify this for me, or perhaps direct me to some page numbers in the DLCS I'd be grateful. Afterall, the DLCS is just a wee bit chaotic and messy and without a proper index it gets hard to find everything. (Mumble mumble...maybe I should make a complete index for the DLCS myself.) |
| #2drachasorDec 27, 2003 1:44:26 | As best I can tell from browsing the books...it seems that the WoHS is following Dalamar around...more or less. It isn't stated explicitely, but he and ....the red robed Wizardress (I have forgotten her name) are the leaders more or less. Perhaps it is based in Palanthus at the moment? It is stated that the WoHS were only disbanded for 10 years, so they aren't as disorganized as the clerics.....is this true? I thought they disbanded sooner than that....hmm, did they keep meeting until Dalamar's tower disappeared? Or did they meet for longer? Anyhow, it looks like many old wizards are still about...Elves would be the most powerful I imagine, since most of the humans would have just been apprentices. Of course, given that you can move your Sorc levels over to Wizard levels, you might get a lot of converted Sorcs that prefer Wizardry. -Drachasor |
| #3wardragonDec 27, 2003 10:19:42 | Given the fact that all the gods, including those of magic, are becoming more proactive in the Fifth Age (winning back old worshippers and gaining new converts), I'm betting it's only a matter of time before new Towers of High Sorcery pop up. |
| #4zombiegleemaxDec 27, 2003 11:12:02 | The Wizards are still reorganizing. Dalamar and Jenna lead the Black and Red Robes respectively. They are looking for someone to lead the White, since Palin has emphatically refused the job. The gods have forbidden Dalamar to enter the Palanthus/Nightlund Tower. For now he hasn't opted to share it's location with anyone else, but it's only a matter of time before he, or the gods, does so. Wayreth remains hidden. I suspect the gods won't let them back in until they settle the issue of who leads the White Robes. A great many former Wizards of High Sorcery are enthusiastically embracing the return of the gods, including those of them like Jenna and Dalamar that had practiced primal sorcery during their absence. For now they're setting informal schools and Testing places around Ansalon until the Tower issue is resolved. They haven't taken a strong stance on the question of renegade wizards or sorcerors yet. Most individual WoHS will probably try to convince any they encounter to join the Orders, but they don't yet have the resources to back it up as a demand. |
| #5zombiegleemaxDec 27, 2003 13:40:21 | Originally posted by Eylwn Highmoon To be honest I don't think the WoHS have the means to monitor much less deal with renegade wizards... especially with the sorcerer thing on the table... |
| #6zombiegleemaxDec 27, 2003 19:50:09 | That's good news for my Silvanesti Elf Wizard who's going to be in his campaign. He isn't particularly keen on joining the club, so it would be nice if they didn't hunt him down every time he casts a light spell. |
| #7Charles_PhippsDec 27, 2003 20:32:45 | Basically the newbie in our games wants some extra missions to catch up in EXP with the "Old Guard" so he's asked me about the possibility of his forming a team of Wizards of High SorceryTM to track down sorcerers and either have them take the oath to transfer their sorcery levels to High Wizardry or kill them. The odd thing is he's a White Robe but believes so strongly Chaos might be freed if Wild Magic continues to thrive they must all be stopped/destroyed |
| #8zombiegleemaxDec 27, 2003 20:58:28 | Don't assume they won't try. It's just that they don't have the monolithic organization needed to sustain such efforts (yet). Also, you just led to an excellent point I was going to make. Now that the gods are back and people are beginning to feel that it might be possible to get back to the more secure stability of days gone by, a lot of people are going to polarize on this issue, and not just wizards and sorcerors. Some very traditional societies, like the Silvanesti, are likely to want to do everything possible hang onto their established culture. This will become even more important to them, not less, now that they have been kicked out of their homeland. They are therefore very likely to try and enforce their culture's traditional insistence on White Robes only, even though their ability to actaully do so may be as limited as their ability to hold their caste system together. But a Silvanesti wizard who does not join the Orders and wear White Robes may have more to fear from non-spellcasting Silvanesti elves than he does from the Orders. The Knights of Solamnia are also lawful enough to probably take a similar attitude. They've never cared much for magic to begin with. But at least when the Orders were in charge there was some "godly" oversight to the use of magic on Ansalon. The idea of spellcasting "loose cannons" running around is not likely to win much favor from the Knights. Sorcerors have an even bigger problem. With the fall of the Academy, the only widely-known organization of Sorcerors is - the Knights of the Thorn! That could develop into a very bad public image problem for sorcerors in time if it remains the case. If it becomes clear to people that you have the "godly" magic-users in their easily identifiable colors, and then you have the sorcerors, many of whom seem to be Thorn Knights, that could create a serious antipathy towards them. While many sorcerors may not see the need, reestablishing the Academy may be more important than they realize. If the Knights of Solamnia or other major powers like the Ergothians start deciding that renegade wizard/sorceror = Thorn Knight, life could get very unpleasant for independent arcane spellcasters very fast. |
| #9drachasorDec 28, 2003 12:54:14 | Additionally, without organization Sorcerers will be at a significant disadvantage when the Orders come to find them. Organization gives you numbers, strategy, and a lot of information sharing (as well as safe places to rest). Sorcerers will have restart their Academy or join the Orders....and even if the Academy is started again, it is probably a good idea for them to form some sort of partnership of magic with the Orders. Also, a group of Sorcerers would make it much, much more likely that the Orders wouldn't come after them. Even if the Orders could take out the group (and all wanted to), the losses might not be worth it.* -Drachasor *Rather like the German WWI naval strategy vs. the British. You don't need enough ships to defeat theirs...you need enough ships to make the losses on their side too much to bear. |
| #10zombiegleemaxDec 28, 2003 14:35:55 | Would a renegade Silvanesti Elf Wizard be so uncommon with the current lack of organization within the different orders of arcane spellcasters? If this isn't the case, I might have to go seriously undercover and not blow off the whole arsenal unless there are no witnesses around to point me out to one of the orders. |
| #11zombiegleemaxDec 28, 2003 15:51:17 | The Orders are still far from resuming "normal service", so in the general public the answer would be no. However, the Silvanesti are very tradition obsessed and with the three moons back in the sky will have a clear expectation that their spellcasters should all be White Robes as before. Interestingly, your Silvanesti renegade will have fewer problems among humans than among their own kind. It would be interesting to see Emma Xeela (if she survived the destruction) or Ulin Majere (ditto) seek to restore the Academy. I don't expect the Orders to approve of sorcery. They know for a fact that wild magic is tied to Chaos and they'll fear that the ancient catastrophes that wild magic wrought could be repeated. They are going to fear primal sorcery and it's possible ramifications. The sorcerors will be sitting ducks for the Orders, and witch-hunting average folk, to say nothing of anyone who might think they're in league with the Thorn Knights. Rebuilding the Academy might forestall that. |
| #12zombiegleemaxDec 28, 2003 16:41:00 | Well, I'll let you in on the backstory of my Silvanesti Elf. I think you'll agree that he is pretty far from ordinary, which is sort of why we have heroes in the first place, right? They're not supposed to be ordinary. Here goes: Lotharis Moonsilver is the only son of the two mages, Aegwyn and Malorne Moonsilver. He grew up in Silvanost and studied magic under the guidance of his father. Silvanost is attacked by Mina and the army of The One God and the family decides to flee to the Plains of Dust together with many other Silvanesti Elves. As the Ogres settle in Silvanost, Lotharis's mother participates in many attacks by the Silvanesti Elves to retake Silvanost, but every time they're beaten back by the Ogres. Malorne and Lotharis beg her not to go, but Aegwyn is determined to either see her son grow up in a peaceful Silvanost or die trying to take it back. Though a competent wizard, she cannot avert the fate that befalls her as she is killed in one of the attacks. Seeing that he cannot do any more to help the Silvanesti Elves in the Plains of Dust, Malorne chooses to make Lotharis's upbringing his top priority. In order for him to grow up in a relatively safe environment, he makes arrangements for both of them to go to Silvamori in Southern Ergoth. Before they go, Lotharis swears on his mother's grave that he will fulfill her mission to free Silvanost of Ogres. He will work hard to become the most powerful Elven wizard ever. Six years after they settled in Silvamori, Lotharis has chosen to seek power and knowledge outside the city limits. He has a feeling that only out there will he be able to find the power needed to cleanse Silvanost of evil. Seeing as Red Robe Wizard from the Wizards of High Sorcery needed a capable bodyguard for a dangerous journey, Lotharis chose to offer his services, so that he might be able to learn something from the wizard. And so an adventure is about to unfold that Lotharis would never believe he would experience... |
| #13zombiegleemaxDec 29, 2003 14:10:06 | That last bit about the red robed wizard is the beginning of our campaign, so it isn't all too important for the backstory. But his elf is more determined to gain magical power and kick the behind of anything tresspassing on elven land (according to his own conviction). He has no desire to join the Order (despite the Silvanesti favouring the White robes). We're starting the campaign out by having the players hired by a red robed wizard who seeks to combat the goblins in southern Qualinesti, as he believes that peace and the return of the elves to Qualinesti will allow the Tower of Wayreth to be found, thus giving the Order a base of operations. It would kinda suck if the Red robed would constantly flame (pun intended) the poor elf for not wanting to join the order. But all the info you have given clears up the details I couldn't find elsewhere. |
| #14agent_malucci_dupDec 29, 2003 17:10:41 | Remember that while all the gods were gone, wizards had the choice to become sorcerers, and just because the gods came back, do you think that suddenly the ranks of the WoHS will swell? How many spellcasters would return to the gods who have only proven themselves to be easily lost? It is telling that Palin is now a sorcerer. If there was an advantage to being in the WoHS, don't you think that he would have either stayed as one, or tried to get back. Its hard to act like some fancy mage guild, when you can't find the guildhouse. Sure the WoHS will return to power, but in time. As for hunting down people. I can't see them randomly hunting down people who have inherent magic ability. Sorcerers can't be in the WoHS, would they really hunt them all down just to kill them? Maybe the Black Robes would, but it doesn't feel in character for the other robes. With all the changes on Ansalon, the WoHS are just lucky to have a few members left, and i'm sure they want to stay low-key, hide in their towers and try to rebuild. Half the fun is that the world has been shaken up, Solamnia is occupied, the towers of high sorcery are gone, kender aren't fearless. The WoHS have a new role in the world, one that has vastly changed, just like the Knights of Solamnia. Basically don't worry about them until they come bug you, then bluff them. Wizards have horrible sense motive. AM |
| #15zombiegleemaxDec 29, 2003 20:53:31 | Palin's not technically anything right at the moment. After he turned down the god's offer they have removed his magical powers completely. Gods can do that, even to sorcerors apparently. Quite frankly, a lot of former WoHS who resorted to primal sorcery in the Fifth Age will go back. Dalamar and Jenna already have. There was more to being in the Orders than just the ability to wield magic. It was a fraternity/sorority and gave a sense of unity to magic-users. Also, sorcery, while nifty, does have it's limitations. Sorcerors have more freedom in the way they cast spells, but they can never learn as many spells as the wizards can. That alone is a big point. Finally, it is a religion of sorts, and many wizards will follow their faith. It will be some time before the Orders are strong enough to police magic again. But odds are they will try. And bear in mind, they do have the support of the gods. That can count for a great deal. |
| #16WizardmanJan 01, 2004 2:44:57 | How would the WoHS react to a multiclass wizard/sorcerer who is a member of the Order? To clarify, this character, a Silvanesti elf, was a White Robe before the Summer of Flame. After the Chaos War, he drifted around a bit, and joined the Academy. However, unlike the overwhelming majority of others, he never received the epiphany that would allow him to pick up with the new magic from where he was forced to leave off with the old, so in effect he had to begin his training all over again. He was away when the Academy was destroyed. While he is glad that the gods and High Sorcery are back, the effort he put into becoming a sorcerer has made him fond of it. He will still progress as a wizard, of course, but he will also continue to improve his mastery of wild magic. How would the Orders deal with someone like him? At best, he is a natural go-between. At worst... |
| #17WizardmanJan 01, 2004 2:56:34 | Oh, before I forget- there is another organization which will accept sorcerers: the Legion of Steel. While not a primarily magical association, there are sorcerers in its ranks, and if the WoHS ever does try any widespread purge of sorcerers, it will almost certainly be opposed by the Legion, on principle. This would put any White or Red Robes who are Legionnaires, Legion agents, or Legion sympathisers into a dilemna, wouldn't it? |
| #18Charles_PhippsJan 01, 2004 20:39:00 | I think Wizardman basically it's like this... You are practicing forbidden magic that is innately corrupt and monstrous i.e. Chaos magic. You must stop it if you are to remain a member of the Order of High Sorcery or PRETEND to still be a arcane wizard. Hardliners will view the character's magic as an abomination while more liberal would just think his membership validated by his membership in the OoHS. |
| #19zombiegleemaxJan 01, 2004 22:14:42 | Originally posted by Wizardman Okay, from what I understand(which isn't much, I'm afraid, I haven't gotten to far in the DLCS yet), he *WOULD* begin his training over again, but then everytime he gained a level in sorcerer, he would instead trade in a level of wizard to get it. This might not be how it is, but it's how I would do it, although *SOME* people may be able to trade all their levels in at once, but I think even Palin had to re-learn magic in the early Age of Mortals. Also, this is sorta off topic, but I was thinking about how Palin is a Sorcerer 7/Academy Sorcerer 10/Master Ambassador 1. Well, he has 17 levels of (more or less) useless levels. Well, I was thinking, and decided that when he got to level 20(S 7/AS 10/MA 3), then he could trade in useless levels (starting with prestige classes) for other levels. I would probably put him as a Rogue 10/Master Ambassador 10, as I can't relly think of any classes other than Rogue that would work for Palin (too puny to be a fighter, not godly enough to become a cleric, and probably won't take a sudden liking to the sea). |
| #20drachasorJan 02, 2004 9:55:43 | Originally posted by Agent_Malucci Hmm....right.....Takhisis stealing the world while the Gods were battling Chaos could happen just any day...couldn't it? I mean, that is something that almost anyone could pull off, right? So clearly no one is going to trust the gods now....that would just be unreasonable. (In reality the people not trusting the gods, though understandable, are being unreasonable). As it has been noted, there are big differenced between Sorcery and Wizardry. For one, the latter is like a science, it has rules and you can create and discover things with it easily. This means exploring new spells and magical items for one....which Sorcerers can't do nearly as effectively. This means that people of a certain mindset will be far more attracted to Wizardry than Sorcery. If the latter is the only game in town...well, then you make due, but now that the good stuff is back, you embrace it. This is how almost every former Wizard will see things....especially since most of them find Wizardry more natural anyhow (higher intelligence than charisma). Saying that they wouldn't go back is like putting a scientist in the 5th century BC, making him learn to blacksmith, 'wizard'* or the like, and then expecting him to continue doing so after he is brought back to the present. You might get the occasional *extremely* odd scientist that would do so, but the vast, vast majority would not. As for Palin...I bet you that he is going to eventually decide that he must rejoin the WoHS (and regain the use of magic). The three brothers are hoping he will, and I think he'll eventually see that he *can* be a father and the head of the white robes. Additionally, I think he'll see that to make the world safe for his family and for the people of Krynn in general, he'll have to accept this responsibility. Things are insanely chaotic right now, and a reinvigorated and restored WoHS could do much to settle things down. Even the average Black Robe (like Dalamar) would agree with this, since continued chaos would make the continued practicing and *teaching* of magic extremely difficult. Originally posted by Agent_Malucci It works like this: If you are using magic and use your magic irresponsibly, then they'll come after you. This covers tossing fireballs at houses with an *extremely* good reason, charming shopkeepers to give you items for free or at a loss, and other things that would make people hate magic even more (again without an extremely good reason). Typically they will also come after anyone with access to 3rd levels spells or greater, if they find out about you....but if you are inconspicuous, then they won't. White Robes will try to convince you to join the orders (and preferably be a White, but it isn't necessary). They will do their best not to harm you, but will eventually use force to bring you in...if you resist then you *do* risk death at that point. Red Robes try to convince you as well, and if you resist they will kill you. Black Robes try to convince you to join their Order and/or kill you. If you are clearly not Black Robe material, they'll probably just kill (especially if you are heard to be dangerous)...otherwise they kill you for not joining (or clearly stating you'll join a different order). That's how it works...and it fits the viewpoints of all the Orders, since they all believe renegades to be extremely dangerous to the survival of magic. Now, since you can trade Sorcerous levels for Wizardry levels in Dragonlance, then it is harder to refuse to join the Order....eventually there will likely be an agreement reaced. This will almost definitely involve the creation of "Orders of High Sorcery"..a companion group of the Wizards...and if not, then Sorcerers will be part of the WoHS. The gods of magic and wizards don't screw around when it comes to preserving magic and magic-users....if this means killing people that are a danger to the continued practice, then so be it. (White Mages might shed tears at the loss, but that wouldn't stop them). -Drachasor |
| #21agent_malucci_dupJan 02, 2004 15:35:46 | So clearly no one is going to trust the gods now....that would just be unreasonable. (In reality the people not trusting the gods, though understandable, are being unreasonable). Of course being a person who has read any number of books on DL makes you have more info than your standard 8th level wizard. When you lose all the rewards of years and years of training in wizardly arts, why would it be unreasonable to return to the bosom of the very gods who abandoned you? It seems as if people want to look at the effects of this from the gods point of view. What about the poor mortals who have no idea what happened? All they know is they were the servants of the moons, and in return for their devotion, they were lost. Sure it wasn't totally the gods faults, but is everyone as trusting in the gods as you are? Now, since you can trade Sorcerous levels for Wizardry levels in Dragonlance, then it is harder to refuse to join the Order....eventually there will likely be an agreement reaced. In regards to this, I was under the impression that you got one chance to switch, not the option to switch back and forth as you wish. If you are playing a new character after all this nonsense happens, do you really get the option to switch? That seems like a handy role-playing loophole which works out great. You start out as a sorcerer and cruise around lobbing mass quantities of spells at people, and then as soon as you decide you want to start doing magical research, time to switch over to wizard! If the option to always trade in levels of sorcerer to wizard were there and vice versa it would make role-playing a mage or sorcerer distinctly different in the DL setting. In our current campaign i am the master of multiclassing(with 5 classes at 8th level) and i have levels of wizard. You pick your path upon character creation, you should not be able to change something like your class unless their is an extreme rp reason for it. If you actually undergo an epiphany during gameplay and are offered the chance to switch maybe that would be acceptable, but you make it sound like any sorcerer at any point can just decide that he wants to change to wizard, and its no big deal. The whole wizard/sorcerer switch thing doesn't really make any logical sense anyway, its just a way to make the novels pseudo-work as an rpg. Of course, the way we do things in my group could be vastly different from other campaigns, but this is just my opinion on this issue. AM |
| #22zombiegleemaxJan 02, 2004 16:24:41 | The switch over ("epiphany") between Wizard and Sorceror is a once or twice in a lifetime sort of thing. I say twice because some like Dalamar and Jenna became sorcerors during the early Fifth Age and have now gone back to being Wizards of High Sorcery. It's not necessarily a bad trade. True, the gods vanished and there was a time when the moons were gone. But unlike clerical magic, this has only happened once (wizardly magic continued normally after the Cataclysm). And the Orders have historically had much to offer in terms of knowledge, items, support and camaraderie. Also, many sorcerors won't necessarily feel an absolute sense of security in their magic either. Remember that during the years leading up to the War of Souls, Takhisis had been stealing the magic of primal sorcery and even powerful sorcerors like Palin had found themselves to be essentially powerless. Ironically, the return of the gods coincides with the end of Takhisis's theft of magic and many people will see a connection between the presence of the gods and strength of magic. After all, sorcery in the Fifth Age, even before Takhisis really got the dead working full time at stealing it, was never the equal of High Sorcery. So many former WoHS sorcery will likely return to the Orders. Had Palin not wanted to set aside magic altogether he would likely have done so. So there will probably be a serious factionalization of magic-users in the coming years. |
| #23Charles_PhippsJan 03, 2004 1:06:04 | In General I don't think that the Wizards of High Sorcery really care one way or another what ANY of their fellows are doing outside of the towers. If a Black Robe wanted to commit genocide against the kender race then as far as they are concerned, the Black Robe is beyond their jurisdiction since its an ethical not magical matter. A Black Robe that eats babies is going to be just as welcome at the Towers of High Sorcery as any White robe, he just might not be someone most care to associate with. A white robe that has the goal to murder every last Black Robe sorcery practioner on Earth isn't going to be expelled from the OoHS. INDIVIDUALLY Red, White, and Black Robes might track any of the three down and kill them in cold blood but that is the decision of the magi in question...not the conclave. I see basically total moral freedom except in matters of magic being the general rule for conclave judgements or otherwise people might walk. Certainly people giving Wizardry a bad name will be thrown out (for incompetence) or killed (for such) but in general the brotherhood of wizards has the orders as the refuge of all who serve the gods of magic Its like "sanctuary" in church. Even if you hate the Lich King who is conducting mass murder, so long as he respects the Tower...you have to respect it. I imagine it might get annoying if a fugitive is living there full time.. |
| #24zombiegleemaxJan 03, 2004 22:59:04 | I got the feeling that sorceres, like magic, are awefully rare - anyone? |
| #25zombiegleemaxJan 04, 2004 2:03:17 | Don't forget that only Arcane casters that can cast 3rd level spells are the only ones considered for the Test anyways. 1st through 4th level Sorcerors, Wizards, or any combo in between aren't even considered for the Tests, because they can't wield powerful enough magic to be considered real threats. I don't think that Wizards will ever be able to 'Hunt' down anyone. That was the old way, and this is basically a new world. With Gilean being the only elder God left, I think that he will vie for some sort of balance between Wizards and Sorcerors. Perhaps even two branches of High Sorcery. If Takhisis can steal the world, which she did, then anything can happen. |
| #26drachasorJan 06, 2004 15:22:03 | Originally posted by Charles Phipps They don't care in general as long as it won't do damage to Magic. Orders care about how their members act a bit more though. Originally posted by Charles Phipps This is something that would impact magic greatly. It would be akin to killing on the children on the planet. Many people might not like hanging around Kender, but a huge number would be outraged at wizardry if they were all killed of by it. This would damage the ability of wizard to do and learn magic. I am not sure if it is in the new source books, but in the Tales of the Lance boxed set, it stated that this sort of thing is one of the acts the Orders stop members from doing. I think the particular example in the book was torching villages with fireballs because you're "evil." (or in that case just stupid). When there is an army and war involved...then they don't dictate who's side you are on, but outside of that it is different. If you want to raise an army of the dead...they won't stop you until you start using it (most likely), unless you are part of a larger structue (and hence it won't be identified with the WoHS). If you want to become a lich, WoHS is fine, if you want to create new, terribly spells that cause pain, injury, death...fine. If you want to blackmail your cousin...also fine. If you want to sow random destruction about in a way that will make it harder to recruit and teach new wizards...it is NOT fine. Wizardry on Krynn is a lot more strict than on other worlds. Originally posted by Charles Phipps |