Personally, I'm thinking of taking a middle road and creating good dragonspawn and and using those for my half-dragon allies, adversaries, and PC choices. The benefit of using dragonspawn over half-dragons is that you can increase and decrease the ECL depending on the dragon type you choose.
For the draconians, I don't think they'll see much play in my campaigns just because they see too much play in others, and I really hate the fact that they explode. (My dragonspawn don't explode).
Thus, unless I'm dealing specifically with draconian city state of Teyr, I won't have them in my games. I'm also toying with the idea of Platinum dragonspawn champions, coming from the dragon form of the mortal Paladine. However, another part of me thinks this would be too cheezy. What do you all think?
Now for your idea, I can picture in my head really cool looking platinum dragon-men in heavy mail, wings spread, and armed with lances. Hey, Sivaks fly in heavy armor I figure they can do so too. I wouldn’t go with any “Champion of…” name for them though; it has too much of a Saturday morning cartoon sound to it. I think with a detail origin (maybe using the Dragon Isles) you can give them a good spin. They would definitely make an exceptional template.
They are just different from the OFFICIAL dragonspawn which are just funny skinned elves according to Dragon.
I just feel that for dragons and humanoids to have children, it diminishes the poignancy of ill-fated love between Gilthanas and Silvara, as well as Huma and Gwennyth. The two species are so remote that children would be impossible. So, there's a limit to how far that relationship can go. i.e. such relationships are ultimately barren. For Huma to feel that his love is stronger than a childless relationship is part of what made him the best of Knights. His love is better than what fate has in store for the both of them, and that love carried them through their last battle with Takhisis.
As for Gilthanas, his inability to get over the rift was a part of his problem. In his mind he was in love with whom he believed was elf. Even knowing her real identity, it took him a really long time in his odyessy to figure out it is the person behind the dragon/elf. And his love overcame the rift of being two distinct species.
Personally, if having a half-dragon gives some role-playing meaning to your game, and the DM wills it, I'd say add it. It won't be official, but i'm always in favor of RP entertainment over officiality.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
They are just different from the OFFICIAL dragonspawn which are just funny skinned elves according to Dragon.
Funny skinned elves? Sounds more like huldrefolk than spawn.
Taking the half-dragon out of the realm of "offspring of a dragon and a mortal lover" and into the realm of "template for interesting and unique monster" allows for its inclusion. File off the serial numbers, in other words - Krynn already has its draconic humanoids.
Cheers,
Cam
Also, as mentioned above, the role of a half-dragon is already taken by that of draconians and dragonspawn. Really, the draconians were the first half-dragons of D&D, in a sense.
Personally, I think you could include a half-dragon and have a good sense of tragedy surrounding the character, noting that it is a one-of-a-kind creature. However, I would be very cautious adding such a creature, especially with draconians and dragonspawn hanging about.
Originally posted by ferratus
For the draconians, I don't think they'll see much play in my campaigns just because they see too much play in others, and I really hate the fact that they explode. (My dragonspawn don't explode).
The death throes are one of the best parts of the draconians! Imagine a foe that has a chance to kill you even as it dies.
Granted, I think dragonspawn would have been better off not having death throes, but that's just me.
I'm also toying with the idea of Platinum dragonspawn champions, coming from the dragon form of the mortal Paladine. However, another part of me thinks this would be too cheezy. What do you all think?
Yeah, I think you're right in that this is a bit cheezy. My advice in dealing with Valthonis is to not deal with him at all. Let him be a legend - the walking god.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Yeah, I think you're right in that this is a bit cheezy. My advice in dealing with Valthonis is to not deal with him at all. Let him be a legend - the walking god.
I don't think use of Valthonis itself is all that problematic, so much as for the simple fact that he's just an elf. Maybe a high level elf (I doubt we'll ever get stats) but still an elf. There's nothing inherently "platinum dragoney" (I love making up terms) about him anymore. You'd have just as much luck making platinum spawn from The Lioness, for instance.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
I don't think use of Valthonis itself is all that problematic, so much as for the simple fact that he's just an elf.
"Shining castle on the hill", my man.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
I don't think use of Valthonis itself is all that problematic, so much as for the simple fact that he's just an elf. Maybe a high level elf (I doubt we'll ever get stats) but still an elf. There's nothing inherently "platinum dragoney" (I love making up terms) about him anymore. You'd have just as much luck making platinum spawn from The Lioness, for instance.
He could always be the Platinum Dragon in alternate form. Interesting story arc, but ultimately it is kinda corny.
I agree with anyone who says that half-dragons are not needed, what with spawn and Dracos.
As to spawn having death throes, I agree they are redundant with the Draco death throes, but I think it just represents something else gained through the essense of draconian during the process of creating the spawn.
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Huma's offspring with his girlfriend showed up during the War of Chaos.
They are just different from the OFFICIAL dragonspawn which are just funny skinned elves according to Dragon.
I think this may have been because they used the old concept of the Half-dragon that I first saw in the old 2nd edition Council of the Wyrms setting, which allowed for Dragon player characters (was as much success as possible considering it was constrained by the inflexible (and frankly sometimes irrational) 2nd edition rules).
These could only occur from a shapechanged male dragon “mating” with a female demihuman and impregnating her. (Though DL seemed to have allowed the reverse to happen)
(In the Council of the Wyrms setting the Humans were all deeply persecuted, with Dwarfs, Gnomes and Elves serving as the vassals and companions in the dragon civilisation, hense no human dragon)
It didn’t matter what the demihuman parentage was, all half-dragons appeared as basically Elves with certain reptilian features (in their eyes, small horns, talon like nails etc) and as the matured (i.e gained levels) they gained certain abilities from their parents, like breath weapons and certain immunities and spell-like affects. They’re ability scores were also slightly changed (+2 strength, +1 con, -1 wisdom, that sort of thing)
Now in 3rd-3.5 ed. dragons seem to be able to create half-dragons out of nearly anything, and presumably the mechanics involved in making them are now somewhat down to magic, transmutation and sharing essences rather than mating. (Either that or Dragons really ought to take far more cold showers)
I have to say that normal half-dragons in Krynn don't seem to be work conceptually, as the Draconians and Dragonspawn required so much magic and research from the most powerful dragons to create, introducing bog standard half-dragons would just seem a bit wrong to me.
Originally posted by Daedavias
As to spawn having death throes, I agree they are redundant with the Draco death throes, but I think it just represents something else gained through the essense of draconian during the process of creating the spawn.
It seems to be part of the innate character of draconians, or anything created with the essence of them, to break down or otherwise "come undone" when killed. All spawn have a portion of a draconian's essence in them, and they are also held together by some pretty powerful magical forces in conflict. Thus, when they are killed, those forces blow out and thus the death throe is somewhat more overt with them than with standard draconians.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Illithidbix
Yes, I always thought that the Deaththrows suited they're whole "unnatural" image, as they required magic to create and sustain them and this was released uncontrolably when they died.
You and Cam both make good points on this. I always saw death throes as something the creators built in to draconians to take out as many of the good guys as possible. If a good guy is good enough to take out a draconian, he's going to be hurting after the death throes. One less opponent to deal with down the road.
I really don’t see the harm in Half-Dragons. What’s a third draconic race anyway? Aside from draconians, which are the more common ones, you’ll rarely see a half-dragon, and spawns are not as common either. Why must Krynn dragons also lack the ability to breed with anything? Not like their going to go around doing so anyway. But if a Black Dragon mates with a bakali shouldn’t it be interesting to see what a half-dragon bakali would be like? There are plenty of story arcs available with such rare children.
And Cam, how can you refer to bringing in a Half-Dragon into the realm of a “template” (which is what it is) as a negative point. We all know it would be a very rare template, and if someone decides to overuse them that is find too, it is a game after all, and the Half-Dragon Template is part of the game, not some artistic-vague concept for DMs to use as a story springboard (although they work well for that as well).
So if the half-dragon template is viable, would folks to opposed to a half-dragon/half draconian?
Granak Red-Silver
Originally posted by Baron the Curse
Well, since Dragonlance wants to be so “unique” once again by taking the road of exclusion what do you get when a dragon mates with a human for example?
Well Dragonlance definately needs to be more "unique" with new ideas rather than simply rejecting new or old ideas from other sources. That said, I don't think Dragonlance should be bound to accept any idea that comes along either, if it can shown to be problematic.
Now, in terms of the half-dragons it isn't problematic from a story standpoint. We have the whole objection that it makes the poignant tragedy of dragon-human relationships if they can't have children. Frankly though, if you're carrying on a romantic affair with a 2,000 year old 50 foot long elemental lizard, you're going to have bigger issues than the mundane domestic one about whether or not you have to adopt. Besides, a tragedy is only a tragedy if you have the hope that there is a happy resolution. ;)
I really don’t see the harm in Half-Dragons. What’s a third draconic race anyway? Aside from draconians, which are the more common ones, you’ll rarely see a half-dragon, and spawns are not as common either.
Yeah, in this case it is mostly an issue of confusion. Is that gold scaled thing an aurak, a dragonspawn or a half-dragon? Notice that I myself have pretty much replaced draconians with good dragonspawn in my campaign, rather than having them exist side by side.
That said, one half-dragon in a campaign doesn't cause much confusion. However, I can't really see a character that a half-dragon is needed for that a dragonspawn replace. If he does though, I'm afraid you have no choice but to damn what Margaret Weis says. That character must come to life.
Why must Krynn dragons also lack the ability to breed with anything? Not like their going to go around doing so anyway. But if a Black Dragon mates with a bakali shouldn’t it be interesting to see what a half-dragon bakali would be like? There are plenty of story arcs available with such rare children.
Well, the interesting thing about this is that it shows that the polymorph spell does not allow a similar enough genetic match for the shapechanged creature to produce offspring. It is pretty much consistently done in Cam Bank's monster writeup in the DM's Screen. The only half-breed creatures in there are humanoid crosses, and outsider-humanoid crosses.
The exception to this is the dragon ancestry of the Naga. They are listed among the bakali races. I hope it isn't because they are both reptilian. If we're not going to have half-dragon humans, I'd rather we not have half-dragon kobolds or lizardmen either. I'm thus assuming therefore that the Naga are a variant type of draconian or dragonspawn. You want to set me straight on this Cam?
Originally posted by Granakrs
So if the half-dragon template is viable, would folks to opposed to a half-dragon/half draconian?
I've said often that I would like to use sorcerers who have a sivak father as part of their backstory. Nobody has complained about it at all. We discussed the role of bloodlines and how this would interact with sorcery as a discipline rather than an innate ability (as it seems to be on Krynn) and the general concensus seems to have been that a bloodline could work well to explain innate talent of both some wizards and some sorcerers.
The idea of dragon and humans mating seems to be a big problem because it goes against prior canon, rather than any other reason.
However, you've just given me an excellent idea for a prestige class, specific to draconians. What if we dragon disciple, and applied it to draconians? So if we take an Aurak, and have it through an intense journey of self discovery regain a lot of the draconic majesty that they lost? True flight, energy resistance, dragonfear, dragonbreath. They already dream about what they could have been right?
I could make an entire monastic order dedicated to Majere out of this in draconian society. Hmm... where was this idea last month? ;)
Originally posted by ferratus
The exception to this is the dragon ancestry of the Naga. They are listed among the bakali races. I hope it isn't because they are both reptilian. If we're not going to have half-dragon humans, I'd rather we not have half-dragon kobolds or lizardmen either. I'm thus assuming therefore that the Naga are a variant type of draconian or dragonspawn. You want to set me straight on this Cam?
Nura Bint-Drax is our best example of a naga from the books. She's clearly powerful, a spellcaster and a shapeshifter (though that's from her magic), and capable of drawing upon the benefices of Sable's own magic.
The bakali are one of those conveniently mutable origin-stories for Dragonlance creatures, lending their heritage to a number of races and monsters much as the Greygem makes many other creatures possible. In the case of the naga, it seemed apparent that they, as such ready-made servants of the great dragons yet with ambitions of their own, be linked to the bakali race's most ancient days. I'm inclined to think that their true ancestry (much like that of other inherently magical creatures) remains a mystery at least for the time being.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Now, in terms of the half-dragons it isn't problematic from a story standpoint. We have the whole objection that it makes the poignant tragedy of dragon-human relationships if they can't have children.
Margaret and Jamie want to maintain the theme of tragedy when there are mortal/dragon relationships. It isn't about having children so much as how the relationship itself will always be tragic.
I think one could work in tragedy into the background of a half-dragon. Imagine having a chromatic dragon parent, yet you try to do good. One could have tons of inner turmoil with this.
Frankly though, if you're carrying on a romantic affair with a 2,000 year old 50 foot long elemental lizard, you're going to have bigger issues than the mundane domestic one about whether or not you have to adopt.
For example....
HUMAN: "It's your turn to do the dishes."
DRAGON: "I'll do them next century."
;)
Yeah, in this case it is mostly an issue of confusion. Is that gold scaled thing an aurak, a dragonspawn or a half-dragon?
It definitely would get confusing. What Granak proposes with half-dragon draconians is more confusing still. Imagine a half-draconian/half-dragon that has been turned into a spawn.
If memory serves, I don't think either template can be added to a draconic creature, so I don't think you could have that anyway.
You know, I'm not sure what to think about half-dragons in Krynn. I could see how one could get a DL flavor from them, but it seems to me that their role in Dragonlance is filled not once, but twice.
How many times do we see fans who dislike dragonspawn because they are often presented as "draconian rip-offs"? Imagine how those same fans would react with a third dragon-man race.
That's one of the big areas where we have trouble with half-dragons in Krynn. Draconians and dragonspawn both fill similar roles, so how does a half-dragon stand out in comparison?
I think first, one has to set some definitions down as to what the differences are between the three dragon-men races. Draconians are a new lifeform created initially as a corruption of metallic dragon eggs.
Dragonspawn, in comparison, are a corruption of an existing lifeform. Problem is, they're treated like draconian shock troops in the Dragons of a New Age trilogy, so we need some redefinition. By focusing on the corruption of existing life, we can provide a somewhat interesting role for spawn. Add to that an interesting backstory to the individual prior to corruption. What if they willingly were transformed, or were an innocent?
Half-dragons would then be the children of mortal and dragon. I would tend to think that Dragonlance should have half-dragons that are less draconic in nature, favoring their mortal parent. There's an old Dragon magazine that has an article on half-dragons (circa Council of Wyrms) that says that Dragonlance half-dragons resemble their non-dragon parent. Funny enough, DL half-dragons weren't very draconic in this article.
While I like half-dragons, I worry that their inclusion would take a twice-filled role and make it into a thrice-filled role. We already have big enough challenges trying to provide a separate identity for dragonspawn. Do we need to add half-dragons into the mix?
If it is because of polymorph, a draconian doesn't normally have access to this kind of power. A female dragon would have to remain humanoid for the duration of the pregnancy, although a male wouldn't. But then why does the child inherit abilities to do with dragons if the shape was human? Surely the sperm/egg would be human shaped by necessity, else they'd still be laying eggs. And that would probably hurt.
I don't see why dragonspawn couldn't mate with normal people though, assuming that the spawn leftover from all the deaths of the dragon overlords are free willed. What if they got all their memories back? They'd probably want to go see their families or something. It's conceivable that some relationships would survive the process of turning into an evil abomination. Failing that, ****. Perhaps you could get a modified version of the half-dragon template from that?
It'd take a while before we saw any though, since they'd be being born within the next few years.
OK, so we get the device of time journeying, send a dragonspawn baby back through time to grow up and be a good half dragonspawn in time for the campaign? Or not, perhaps.
Margaret and Jamie want to maintain the theme of tragedy...
For example....
HUMAN: "It's your turn to do the dishes."
DRAGON: "I'll do them next century."
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but should these two sentences not be taken out of context?
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but should these two sentences not be taken out of context?
Put together like that, they look really bad! lol
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
For example....
HUMAN: "It's your turn to do the dishes."
DRAGON: "I'll do them next century."
Exactly! ;) Plus, I simply can't imagine this conversation:
Dragon: Honey, I'm glad you've managed to accept my scaly hide, the fact that I remember when Istar was that "uppity merchant kingdom", my breath that can burn entire villages down, and my claws that can rend oxen... but I'm afraid I have more bad news... we can't have children.
Human: What? I'm leaving you!
You know, I'm not sure what to think about half-dragons in Krynn. I could see how one could get a DL flavor from them, but it seems to me that their role in Dragonlance is filled not once, but twice.
Perhaps instead of half-dragons, we should think about a +1 ECL dragon touched template. This would cover how dragon DNA somehow got into your bloodstream, whether by draconian, dragonspawn or magic. Not half dragons per say, but enough to give them an exotic look and one or two minor abilities.
By focusing on the corruption of existing life, we can provide a somewhat interesting role for spawn. Add to that an interesting backstory to the individual prior to corruption. What if they willingly were transformed, or were an innocent?
I kind of look at spawn these days as Krynn's answer to both the Lyncanthropes and the Yuanti. Dragonspawn are pretty much corrupted to evil when they are forced into the transformation, and pretty much lose their identity. It is quite literally a soul-enslavement. Thus, a dragonspawn has no more control over his actions than a lyncanthrope under the light of the full moon.
Those willingly transformed though are a different story. I devised the dragon apostle prestige class specifically to give us dragonspawn who are the willing servants of evil that do retain their own identity and intelligence. The end result is that of a half-dragon, but I wouldn't mind retinkering the class to finish up with a dragonspawn form though this would require a bit of complexity due to the different ECL's depending on your dragon type.
I certainly see the dragonspawn as being the leaders of various dragon cults, the commanders of various dragon armies, or the emissaries and servants of dragons.
While I like half-dragons, I worry that their inclusion would take a twice-filled role and make it into a thrice-filled role. We already have big enough challenges trying to provide a separate identity for dragonspawn. Do we need to add half-dragons into the mix?
It isn't a question of need, it is a question of want. I think the better thing to do would be to feature dragonspawn enough in roles different from draconians that people want to use them instead half-dragons. Good dragonspawn would help with this immensely.
Originally posted by ferratus
It isn't a question of need, it is a question of want. I think the better thing to do would be to feature dragonspawn enough in roles different from draconians that people want to use them instead half-dragons. Good dragonspawn would help with this immensely.
Agreed. We definitely need more examples of dragonspawn in different roles to help promote their own identity. In fact, dragonspawn are probably Krynn's equivalent to half-dragons.
Also, we need more art for dragonspawn that show them as being different from draconians. I applaud the piece on the cover of Key of Destiny. The dragonspawn is more humanoid than draconian, even if it is demonic in appearance.
You know, a thought just occurred to me. Can one have varying degrees of being a dragonspawn? Hrm...
Originally posted by ferratus
Dragonspawn are pretty much corrupted to evil when they are forced into the transformation, and pretty much lose their identity. It is quite literally a soul-enslavement. Thus, a dragonspawn has no more control over his actions than a lyncanthrope under the light of the full moon.
For the great majority of spawn, this is probably the simple way of looking at them, I agree.
But if that were the case for all spawn, then it would severely limit what they're capable of. IMO.
One of the things I explored years ago with one of the fan fics I wrote was what the smeg happened to that blue dragonspawn that was capture and studied in the DoaNA trilogy, and the fact that Khellendros cut his mental connection with that spawn.
The idea was: Ok, now what is this spawn going to do?
It's these types of things that I'd love to see explored in official material, rather than just what people like Andre and myself put to thought and paper and discussion.
And with the deaths of some of the Overlords, maybe it will happen.
Thus to satisfy their lust good and evil dragons both often took humanoid form and lovers.
The children were like the children of any polymorph, essentially that race with the 'true races' features or traits
A Dragon that changes into a human with his magic usually makes provisions for his HIGHLY advanced intelligence, highly powerful body structure, etc. His 'seed' is not usually changed to some weird 'dragon-seed/human seed' hybrid though.
It becomes elfseed, human seed, or whatnot.
It also allows them if they allow it the pleasures of that particular form as well.
The resulting offspring might be sorcerers, able to speak dragon, or whatnot but the ultimate fact was they were just members of their lesser parent race.
In Krynn this led to many Dragons having "cults" of their descendents. While it's certainly not canon now with the 'everybody loves Kitharia' take on her, Skie in my Dragonlance campaign was revealed to be Kithara's father and Ariakus the son of a Red Dragon.
Along with many other distant heritages that just basically made their 'temperment'. At most I gave them a +2 reaction with dragons of the appropriate type
Certainly I use Dragonspawn, Draconians, and yes even "half-dragons" but these are the results of magical experiments rather than actual actions.
Take for instance Human and his girlfriend. Their son in my campaign would either be
A
The Product of Paladine allowing a child to be like Jesus...equally Dragon/Equally humanHe'd probably have all the human benefits (extra feat) and dragon with the ability to shift between the two at will
This is because he's a miracle baby.
2
Huma being turned into a Silver DragonThe Dragon doesn't necessarily have to be the one to slake their lust in a different form. While extremely less common at least one Chromatic Dragon in my game transformed females given to him (Red of course) into his own kind to have his way
He of course would be viewed as the sick sick sick sick perverted creature he was even amongst dragons though
(Oddly Dragon culture accepts vaguely mating in human/elf/etc form but not the reverse which is viewed like polymorphing an animal into a girl)
They are very tragic, for one to be born the dragon would have to ask it's patron god to forever change it into the form of the non-dragon parent, obviously not something done lightly and only done out of true love. The half dragon child would be born of the same race as the parents but have hair and/or eyes the color of the dragon parent, ability to speak draconic, slightly longer life and a +2 to charisma (I believe can't remember it all but wasn't much more then that)
I disagree with not having half-dragons in the rpg version of the game.
With Chaos having run rampant, wild magic on the loose, and sorcerers and mystics still maintaining power after the return of the Gods...
I think that almost anything is possible.
Yeah, I read the thread on the Wizards site, and I heard Margaret's response to the question, but I say I could and should be allowed.
Let's say for instance that there are wild magic zones, maybe even portals left over from when the Dragon Overlords came to the planet, and a character who is playing a sorcerer gets passed through one of these zones. If this triggered the dragon blood that is running through his veins, according to the sorcerer description in the PH, then why couldn't he be a Dragon Disciple?
Lets say that the towers of high sorcery get re-instituted and during a test a sorc. gets stressed to the max and that releases his ability to undergo the change.
Really the options are limitless...
I think that relying on the past precedents are just an excuse for not taking advantage of this race, template, whatever you want to call it.
They called the displacement of the planet the Second Catacalysm because nothing will ever be the same. So why try to base this new world off of the old model.
Krynn has a new place in the cosmos and anything could happen.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
I disagree with not having half-dragons in the rpg version of the game.
With Chaos having run rampant, wild magic on the loose, and sorcerers and mystics still maintaining power after the return of the Gods...
I think that almost anything is possible.
Yeah, I read the thread on the Wizards site, and I heard Margaret's response to the question, but I say I could and should be allowed.
Let's say for instance that there are wild magic zones, maybe even portals left over from when the Dragon Overlords came to the planet, and a character who is playing a sorcerer gets passed through one of these zones. If this triggered the dragon blood that is running through his veins, according to the sorcerer description in the PH, then why couldn't he be a Dragon Disciple?
Lets say that the towers of high sorcery get re-instituted and during a test a sorc. gets stressed to the max and that releases his ability to undergo the change.
Really the options are limitless...
I think that relying on the past precedents are just an excuse for not taking advantage of this race, template, whatever you want to call it.
They called the displacement of the planet the Second Catacalysm because nothing will ever be the same. So why try to base this new world off of the old model.
Krynn has a new place in the cosmos and anything could happen.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Originally posted by Fizban's_Fury
If this triggered the dragon blood that is running through his veins, according to the sorcerer description in the PH, then why couldn't he be a Dragon Disciple?
I'm going to present a double-edged sword here.
On the one hand, sorcerers technically gain their magic from the creative and elemental energies left over from the creation of the world in Dragonlance. The dragon blood explanation is one possible explanation for how sorcerers can gain magic, but is not the only one. So basically, the DL sorcerer does not gain power as does a PHB sorcerer.
That being said, here's the flipside.
I like the dragon blood idea, and I think it fits the theme of DL quite well. One could say that there are a certain few sorcerers who did have dragon ancestors, and that their dragon blood gives them a greater connection to the power of Wild Sorcery.
Half-dragons would be one of those non-standard, exception-to-the-rule type of characters. They're one-in-a-million. Just watch how they fit with draconians and dragonspawn, make them unique, and I think it could work.
Welcome to the boards, btw!