I'm making one of the last type. So far, they're really cool.
Bard of the Song - A background on how to incorporate bards with the WoHS while including healing magic.
Bards of Branchala - An article on how to incorporate Monte Cook's alternate bard in Dragonlance.
Bards of Krynn: Options for Bardic Magic - An article on creating a bard using the various types of magic in Krynn.
The last article would probably be more of what you're looking for, although the others may have some fun things in there as well.
Hope that helps!
This pretty much makes Bards sorcerors that can wear armor and wield better weapons. They also get Bardic Knowledge, and can use their song abilities.
All in all, I think that there are only Bards in Dragonlance now because that is what the fallen Paladine is rumored to be, and Gilean new Avatar is rumored to be the Wandering Minstrel.
Originally posted by Fizban's_Fury
All in all, I think that there are only Bards in Dragonlance now because that is what the fallen Paladine is rumored to be, and Gilean new Avatar is rumored to be the Wandering Minstrel.
Branchala has always been the god of bards from the very start, same as Majere has always been the god of monks.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
There have always been bards in the sense of storytellers, minstrels, etc. It's only after the Chaos War that spellcasting bards come about.
The DLCS appears to have two different comments on this:
pg. 261, Bards: As arcane spellcasters who make use of primal sorcery, bards cannot cast spells in the War of the Lance era (since sorcerers don't exist.)
but
pg. 272, Bards: Since their magic is granted from the moons of magic like wizards, bards lose the ability to cast arcane magic during the early Age of Mortals. All other abilities, such as bardic music and knowledge are retained regardless of era.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
The DLCS appears to have two different comments on this:
pg. 261, Bards: As arcane spellcasters who make use of primal sorcery, bards cannot cast spells in the War of the Lance era (since sorcerers don't exist.)
but
pg. 272, Bards: Since their magic is granted from the moons of magic like wizards, bards lose the ability to cast arcane magic during the early Age of Mortals. All other abilities, such as bardic music and knowledge are retained regardless of era.
The first quote is correct.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
The first quote is correct.
Cheers,
Cam
ummm........I do not see anything in the book that disqualifies one version or the other. I have never seen a written source saying that bards just up and decided to be primal sorcerers one day after the chaos war. When did they add Introduction to New Magics as a course at the Bardic Colleges?
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
ummm........I do not see anything in the book that disqualifies one version or the other. I have never seen a written source saying that bards just up and decided to be primal sorcerers one day after the chaos war. When did they add Introduction to New Magics as a course at the Bardic Colleges?
You'll note that it has never been said in any product detailing bardic colleges (specifically, the 5th Age's Heroes of Defiance) that Krynn's bardic colleges teach spellcasting.
In an effort to consolidate the various problems of spellcasting bards from older products and allow for 3rd edition bards in current-era Dragonlance campaigns, the decision was made to make them use wild magic.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
You'll note that it has never been said in any product detailing bardic colleges (specifically, the 5th Age's Heroes of Defiance) that Krynn's bardic colleges teach spellcasting.
In an effort to consolidate the various problems of spellcasting bards from older products and allow for 3rd edition bards in current-era Dragonlance campaigns, the decision was made to make them use wild magic.
Cheers,
Cam
That makes sense, but that is not what the DLCS says. Under the entry for bards in the section on classes, it is only mentioned that they are arcane casters and the only difference between a DL bard and a standard bard is that a DL bard cannot cast healing spells.
Then later are the two enteries I mentioned before. As I said, nothing in the book discredits one or the other.
If DL bards were never spell casters before, that is a pretty big change in the profession for the average bard to now be a magic user.
This also creates the odd situation where a cleric of branchala cannot also be a bard since a character cannot be both a focused and primal caster.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
This also creates the odd situation where a cleric of branchala cannot also be a bard since a character cannot be both a focused and primal caster.
Actually, there's no problem with this. You can't be a focused and ambient spellcaster of the same kind of magic (arcane or divine), and since a cleric uses focused divine magic and a bard uses ambient arcane magic, one can have levels in both.
Bardic magic is assumed to have grown out of the rise in sorcery during the Fifth Age, with its particular form taking shape from the numbers of existing minstrels, performers, and artists. Such self-discovery is not unknown or even strange for this period, and when one or more individuals in the Bardic Colleges learn of the ability to awaken this magic, you can be sure that it would spread about somewhat (coupled with mysticism).
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Bardic magic is assumed to have grown out of the rise in sorcery during the Fifth Age
Again, yes that makes perfect sense and is a completely plausible explanation. But the DLCS simply does not say that. It gives no history of the rise of spell casting bards.
If I knew nothing about DL and the DLCS and Age of Mortals were the first books I read, there is no reason I would come to that conclusion over the idea that Bards are governed by the three moons. Frankly even having read a vast majority of DL material I still don't see a clear answer one way or the other.
What we have to remember in this discussion is that at the time DLA was written, first edition AD&D bards were essentially a hyper prestige class, requiring levels in ranger, cleric, druid, and something else, i think. It was a long and involved process to become a bard, and the resultant character was hella strong and high level. Remember that DL had an 18th level cap at this time, so bards would have overpowered the game.
Second edition, among other things, introduced the dumbed down bard we know and love(?). Now this bard was essentially a minor wizard/illusionist with a few cleric abilities tossed in, aka the perfect specialist priest for Branchala. But because of the DLA restriction we werent able to have that. So now in third ed, after the fifth age mucked with DL magic some more, the bard, which could easily be a great divine caster by himself, is instead a primal arcane caster. Of course, the 3e rules don't help here either, making the bard an arcane caster.
For my campaign, Bards are divine casters who can freely multiclass as clerics for Branchala, Zivlyn, or Hiddukel. In the fifth age and beyond, Bards can either be divine casters or sorcs, pending the time period they are playing in.
These would also explain why there were "bards" as well as bardic god(s) but were no actually bards belonging to the bard class.
The term bard is used in reference to the job that the person has but not the actual class that the person belonged to.
Now remeber this is just a possible explaination.
Personaly, I see Majere and Branchala and I say pc bards and pc monks have always existed in DL, it just happened that no one invited either to join the heroes of the lance.
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
Personaly, I see Majere and Branchala and I say pc bards and pc monks have always existed in DL, it just happened that no one invited either to join the heroes of the lance.
Monks and bards exist in our own real world and without magical powers. They're used to describe people who do certain things or fill certain roles. Having a bard god means that there's a god who governs minstrels, poets, musicians, artists, beauty, song, and music. Having a monk god means there's a god who governs self-discipline, order, meditation, industry, and contemplation. Although it's nice to have actual D&D classes with those names, one shouldn't assume that when a character in the books refers to a monk or a bard, he's talking about a D&D character class.
Cheers,
Cam
Consider Majere for a moment. We don't know a whole lock about him but we do know he is called mantis of the rose. Hmm insects and flowers. Does that say librarian to you or does it scream martial arts warrior poet.
If we are just swapping opions here it can go either way. There is nothing in the DL material to preclude bards. The DLCS even splits the difference. It presents both sorcerer bards and moon bards.
I can agree with both, why deny either?
Originally posted by SageofKaolyn
I can agree with both, why deny either?
Well, you asked, I gave what information I knew to be correct. Granted, it's something that will have to get looked into when coming up with errata or a second printing, but that's the trouble with large-scale collaborative efforts like the DLCS, which had many stages of development and work.
Cheers,
Cam
I've been wrestleing with the Primal sorcery in WOTL and other eras in which primal sorcery is never mentioned. Most of the problem comes in the bard class, and so thats is where I have focused my energies.
For my camapign I rule that, during WOTL and such, Ranger's are required to take the Non-Spellcasting Ranger option (See The Complete Warrior, I don't have my books handy, or i'd put a page number down), and Druids lose their spellcasting abilities. (It just seems wrong to me that, when all the Clerics are gone, and no-one has recived divine healing in centuries, that Druids still retain this ability.) Obviosly this maks the Druid an unfavorable choice for most PC's, and i'm still working on a way to come up with some compensating bonus' that makes sense as well as a reason why these compensating abilities would fade when they re-gain their spellcasting abilities.
However, the bard has presented some problems. I've tried removing their spellcasting however, unlike the Druid, they have no other supporting Supernatural or Spell-Like abilities for me to have them focus on. You can't make them more warrior-like without removing the basis of the bard, so what do you bring forwad to supplant the Primal sorcery? Another problems comes when primal sorcery becomes availiable; what happens to these other abilities? I've thought about making the 5th Age bard a seperate class, and allowing someone to be either a Non-Spellcasting Bard or one with Primal Sorcery and loss of the other abilities, but I still can't think of what to DO for these other abilities. Does anyone have any ideas?
Because the bard's role is covered by these other classes, the impact of cutting back on their appearance in the setting is somewhat lessened.
Cheers,
Cam
Also, what do other people do to the Druid Class dring the Post-Cataclysm, Pre- Return of the Gods Era?
Originally posted by Teclis of House Magi
OK, but how do you replace the wandering mintrel with either of those classes? The bard is an importiant class, what with the Mortal Paladine and the Avatar of Gilean possiably being Bards, and we see many bards thoughtout the novels. We cannot just ignore the class, or replace it.
We don't actually see any spellcasting bards at all. Wandering minstrels can be represented by any class with the Perform skill - the magical abilities of the bard in the D&D game are a step beyond the capabilities of most skalds and harpers.
Also, what do other people do to the Druid Class dring the Post-Cataclysm, Pre- Return of the Gods Era?
There aren't any, much as there aren't any clerics.
Cheers,
Cam
Much to people;s surprise Mishakel returned spells to her clerics on taladas less than 20 years (or maybe it was 40) after the cataclysm. They just did not advertise it.
So who is to say that the druid gods did not do this as well with possibly a rule that if the druid left the forest, her powers would be taken away so as to avoid the other gods finding out that the druid gods were breaking the rules.