Why does Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins have such a bad reputation? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Why does Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins have such a bad reputation?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 17:45:02 I'm not much of a poster, more of a lurker you might say, but this question has brought me out of hiding and I'd appreciate some feedback from the rest of you. I've read through this book by Roger Moore and find it to be very useful with tons of adevnture hooks and great little maps to all sorts of locations I can use in my campaigns, so I'm having a hard time understanding why it has drawn the ire of longtime Greyhawk fans.

Is there some gross breach of Canon I have overlooked? Is it lacking in some fundamental way? Help me out here.
#2
OleOneEye
Jan 06, 2004 17:54:17 Roger Moore is one of the best DnD writers there has been, and anything with his pen to it is a joyful read. However, for those of us who possess the old Greyhawk City boxed set, TAB is little more than an update of that product without the large maps and extra goodies. Frankly, it added little to my campaign. For those without the old boxed set, it presents Greyhawk city and should prove quite useful.
#3
cwslyclgh
Jan 06, 2004 17:54:35 I liked it ok... I just thought that most of it was a simple re-hashing of older stuff (such as the CoG boxed set) that didn't add a lot to the setting.
#4
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 19:04:19
Originally posted by Askalaphos
Is there some gross breach of Canon I have overlooked? Is it lacking in some fundamental way? Help me out here.

He's a lazy writer, for one. Glaring errors like the moon phases being incorrect are, apparently, numerous.
#5
OleOneEye
Jan 06, 2004 19:49:52 As everyone knows, the moon phases in Greyhawk are quite unique. New-Crescent-Full-Gibous-New-Crescent-Full-Gibous. They were never considered to wax and wane like the Earthly moon.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jan 06, 2004 19:53:59
Originally posted by OleOneEye
As everyone knows, the moon phases in Greyhawk are quite unique. New-Crescent-Full-Gibous-New-Crescent-Full-Gibous. They were never considered to wax and wane like the Earthly moon.

Err... huh?

Waxing and waning is what happens between full and new, new and full. Just by saying it goes from new to full, means it has waxed, and saying it has gone from full to new, means it has waned.
#7
OleOneEye
Jan 06, 2004 22:35:19 Read the '83 set. Moon mistakes have followed Greyhawk throughout its history.
#8
Brom_Blackforge
Jan 07, 2004 8:53:00 What Delglath is getting at is (a little) more fully discussed in the thread I started about the lunar phases.

Goodmonth 11th
#9
zombiegleemax
Jan 07, 2004 12:42:52 tAB is not, IMO, a bad product, it's just that it was, as has been mentioned, mostly rehash of older work, namely the City of Greyhawk boxed set. Still, even in that regard, Roger aimed to update some of the story lines to the current era of the setting and added some more general world information from other sources (the 83 boxed set and From the Ashes) as well as some new material to tie it all together. This expansion leads us to my major complaint about Roger's work:

He tied up all the loose plot threads! More importantly, he failed to introduce much in the way of new ones! If you look at the Folk, Fueds and Factions booklet from the City of Greyhawk boxed set, for example, there's an entire chapter devoted to shady NPCs with no real connection to the big picture scheme of things in the city, but with their own little hooks and stories to get a DM's mind in gear for creating adventurers in and around the city. Roger took every one of those characters and wrapped up their story into his blanket vision for the city. Greyhawk city began to feel more like waterdeep, where things happen beyond the realm of PC interaction and the heroes just sit by and watch, instead of the living, maleable setting the boxed set created, where heroes could interact open endedly with the various, ahem, folk and factions at the DM's discretion.

That would have been forgiveable if Roger had dumped a whole slew of new plot hooks and adventure ideas into the book to keep things going, but in that task, he failed. In essence, I don't really begrudge him for what he did write, but more for what he didn't.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 7:34:09 TaB - my reaction after reading this sourcebook was "I want my money back!"

I think I was expecting something on the level of From the Ashes (which I didn't own at that point) or the original boxed set. Instead this seemed to be a rushed sourcebook that resolved a lot of FtA plothooks (like Sewardnt's coup, the Fiends, the Crook of Rao, Duke Szeffrin, Rauxes... etc.) and didn't really open any Flanaess-wide. Except perhaps mainly for the rebellions in Onnwal and the Sea Princes, although the Sea Princes didn't make a lot of sense until the LGG came out and did a bangup job making it make sense and presenting some actual plothooks. ;)

Also, I was non-plussed that the City of Greyhawk absorbed about 3/4 of the book. A lot of it was good but the stuff that was in the LGJ was a little better and presented more interesting hooks. My main problem with TAB is it didn't really give any overview on any areas beyond that (like Nyrond).

Basically if you wanted to know what had happened in Nyrond since 585 then you could find out from the paragraph or two that updated the region, but if you had no clue who Sewardnt or Lynwerd were (for instance were they warriors, wizards, what?) then you had to either buy OOP material or wait for the LGG.

Stuart
#11
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 9:55:18 I don't dislike tAB, and like the original poster was initially surprised to hear "common" disregard for it one night at the 'chat.

In retrospect, initially I liked tAB because it was a new product (and had some new art -- though at least one piece was used twice...).

I also enjoy tAB because Roger attempted to increase our historical knowledge of the Flanaess. For example, the "History of Greyhawk" was neat, especially because it included the histories of several of the Wild Coast towns. "The Climate of Greyhawk" was descriptively interesting and also presented simplified weather generators (that were directly linked to game effects presented in the main rules). The festival descriptions of "The Calendar" were also good.

However, tAB's failing, IMO has less to do with itself and more with the incompleteness of the GH'98 revival. From my readings, tAB in particular suggested several promising module trilogies that were never produced. The renaissance spirit that tAB evoked could have been realized through modules that provided PCs the opportunities to explore Fireland, the coasts of Hepmonaland, and the Sea of Dust (via Slerotin's Tunnel).

Perhaps "we" should create these as submissions to Dungeon?
#12
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 12:07:54 That's a great point that I had never really considered, Marc.

It's very possible that Roger intended the PG (which, iirc, he didn't author) and tAB as summery wrap ups and updates of the setting and springboards into a vast new line of adventures, which we only saw part of with things like Doomgrinder, Scarlet Brotherhood, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, etc. In that case it's perhaps not fair to fault Roger, when it may have been higher up decision making that caused the shortcomings of the 98 relaunch.

I'm inclined to accept this theory actually, considering that Roger's participation in the community prior to the relaunch showed a more adventure friendly, open attitude to the setting (See his Green Nightmare article on the Amedio Jungle in Oerth Journal for an example, that piece is among his better work, and delving further into his portfolio, his Star Frontiers and Traveller work of yore was much more evocative and inspiring than the way tAB came out) than what became the end product.
#13
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 16:16:41 Great minds - I was thinking along those lines as well. ;)

I was thinking this the other day. It starts off by listing a summary of the Return of the Eight and what happened, including a reference to the module, but then also goes on to detail the finding of the Crook of Rao (which could easily have been a really cool road-trip style series of modules or boxed set going through Aerdy to Rel Astra, and then possibly to Veluna) and various other hooks which lead you to think there was moree 585 CY modules planned as GH98.

Mind you given as he planned them, there didn't seem to be room for multiple outcomes in the 591 CY writeups.

Search for the Crook would make an excellent series of From the Ashes based modules for Dungeon! ;)

Stuart
#14
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 17:20:27
Originally posted by skerrigan
Search for the Crook would make an excellent series of From the Ashes based modules for Dungeon! ;)Stuart [/b]

Hi Stuart

Wasn't the search for the Crook of Rao the hook behind 'Fate of Istus'?
#15
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 17:29:22 Urgh... no. The Fate of Istus's hook was that there was some sort of testing going on (read 1st Edition to 2nd Edition conversion) and the PCs were selected to undergo various trials, one for each class (urgh).

The upshot of it was assassin's disappeared and monks were sent to Kara-Tur. Apparently it was Orientals who trained the Suel of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Obviously, we Onnwal Triad people accept this as canon and use it in all our modules*. ;)

The last part of Fate of Istus was an assault on Kro-Terlep, the SB's stronghold, which according to the map looked like an American city - divided into square 'blocks'.

Bits of it are used as canon, especially in LG as each of the 9 or so mini-modules were set in differing cities, like Rauxes, Chendl, Wintershiven, Kro-Terlep (shudder). They were all by different people and some of them were ok, Rauxes is cool as it has a pretty usable map and most of the locations from Ivid are listed on it.

Actually a search for the Crook of Rao module would be like that, a kind of 'road movie' module through Aerdy with the final destination being Rel Astra and beyond...

Heck, if I'd the time I'd write that as a series for Dungeon. ;)

Stuart
* Not really! :D
#16
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 17:47:58 I've obviously got my head still scrambled then, ta
#17
zombiegleemax
Jan 08, 2004 19:55:43 IIRC, the Crook was featured in Isle of the Ape, where PCs foil Iggwilv's plans.

I'd love to see someone's take on Fireland and the coasts of Hepmonaland! And even though I finally started playing LGH, I'd much prefer to see these adventures published in Dungeon than as a LGH mod...

Any takers?

Depending on your timeline I might be able to edit or playtest...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 17:45:02	I'm not much of a poster, more of a lurker you might say, but this question has brought me out of hiding and I'd appreciate some feedback from the rest of you. I've read through this book by Roger Moore and find it to be very useful with tons of adevnture hooks and great little maps to all sorts of locations I can use in my campaigns, so I'm having a hard time understanding why it has drawn the ire of longtime Greyhawk fans. Is there some gross breach of Canon I have overlooked? Is it lacking in some fundamental way? Help me out here.
#2 OleOneEye Jan 06, 2004 17:54:17	Roger Moore is one of the best DnD writers there has been, and anything with his pen to it is a joyful read. However, for those of us who possess the old Greyhawk City boxed set, TAB is little more than an update of that product without the large maps and extra goodies. Frankly, it added little to my campaign. For those without the old boxed set, it presents Greyhawk city and should prove quite useful.
#3 cwslyclgh Jan 06, 2004 17:54:35	I liked it ok... I just thought that most of it was a simple re-hashing of older stuff (such as the CoG boxed set) that didn't add a lot to the setting.
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 19:04:19	Originally posted by Askalaphos Is there some gross breach of Canon I have overlooked? Is it lacking in some fundamental way? Help me out here. He's a lazy writer, for one. Glaring errors like the moon phases being incorrect are, apparently, numerous.
#5 OleOneEye Jan 06, 2004 19:49:52	As everyone knows, the moon phases in Greyhawk are quite unique. New-Crescent-Full-Gibous-New-Crescent-Full-Gibous. They were never considered to wax and wane like the Earthly moon.
#6 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 19:53:59	Originally posted by OleOneEye As everyone knows, the moon phases in Greyhawk are quite unique. New-Crescent-Full-Gibous-New-Crescent-Full-Gibous. They were never considered to wax and wane like the Earthly moon. Err... huh? Waxing and waning is what happens between full and new, new and full. Just by saying it goes from new to full, means it has waxed, and saying it has gone from full to new, means it has waned.
#7 OleOneEye Jan 06, 2004 22:35:19	Read the '83 set. Moon mistakes have followed Greyhawk throughout its history.
#8 Brom_Blackforge Jan 07, 2004 8:53:00	What Delglath is getting at is (a little) more fully discussed in the thread I started about the lunar phases. Goodmonth 11th
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 12:42:52	tAB is not, IMO, a bad product, it's just that it was, as has been mentioned, mostly rehash of older work, namely the City of Greyhawk boxed set. Still, even in that regard, Roger aimed to update some of the story lines to the current era of the setting and added some more general world information from other sources (the 83 boxed set and From the Ashes) as well as some new material to tie it all together. This expansion leads us to my major complaint about Roger's work: He tied up all the loose plot threads! More importantly, he failed to introduce much in the way of new ones! If you look at the Folk, Fueds and Factions booklet from the City of Greyhawk boxed set, for example, there's an entire chapter devoted to shady NPCs with no real connection to the big picture scheme of things in the city, but with their own little hooks and stories to get a DM's mind in gear for creating adventurers in and around the city. Roger took every one of those characters and wrapped up their story into his blanket vision for the city. Greyhawk city began to feel more like waterdeep, where things happen beyond the realm of PC interaction and the heroes just sit by and watch, instead of the living, maleable setting the boxed set created, where heroes could interact open endedly with the various, ahem, folk and factions at the DM's discretion. That would have been forgiveable if Roger had dumped a whole slew of new plot hooks and adventure ideas into the book to keep things going, but in that task, he failed. In essence, I don't really begrudge him for what he did write, but more for what he didn't.
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 7:34:09	TaB - my reaction after reading this sourcebook was "I want my money back!" I think I was expecting something on the level of From the Ashes (which I didn't own at that point) or the original boxed set. Instead this seemed to be a rushed sourcebook that resolved a lot of FtA plothooks (like Sewardnt's coup, the Fiends, the Crook of Rao, Duke Szeffrin, Rauxes... etc.) and didn't really open any Flanaess-wide. Except perhaps mainly for the rebellions in Onnwal and the Sea Princes, although the Sea Princes didn't make a lot of sense until the LGG came out and did a bangup job making it make sense and presenting some actual plothooks. ;) Also, I was non-plussed that the City of Greyhawk absorbed about 3/4 of the book. A lot of it was good but the stuff that was in the LGJ was a little better and presented more interesting hooks. My main problem with TAB is it didn't really give any overview on any areas beyond that (like Nyrond). Basically if you wanted to know what had happened in Nyrond since 585 then you could find out from the paragraph or two that updated the region, but if you had no clue who Sewardnt or Lynwerd were (for instance were they warriors, wizards, what?) then you had to either buy OOP material or wait for the LGG. Stuart
#11 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 9:55:18	I don't dislike tAB, and like the original poster was initially surprised to hear "common" disregard for it one night at the 'chat. In retrospect, initially I liked tAB because it was a new product (and had some new art -- though at least one piece was used twice...). I also enjoy tAB because Roger attempted to increase our historical knowledge of the Flanaess. For example, the "History of Greyhawk" was neat, especially because it included the histories of several of the Wild Coast towns. "The Climate of Greyhawk" was descriptively interesting and also presented simplified weather generators (that were directly linked to game effects presented in the main rules). The festival descriptions of "The Calendar" were also good. However, tAB's failing, IMO has less to do with itself and more with the incompleteness of the GH'98 revival. From my readings, tAB in particular suggested several promising module trilogies that were never produced. The renaissance spirit that tAB evoked could have been realized through modules that provided PCs the opportunities to explore Fireland, the coasts of Hepmonaland, and the Sea of Dust (via Slerotin's Tunnel). Perhaps "we" should create these as submissions to Dungeon?
#12 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 12:07:54	That's a great point that I had never really considered, Marc. It's very possible that Roger intended the PG (which, iirc, he didn't author) and tAB as summery wrap ups and updates of the setting and springboards into a vast new line of adventures, which we only saw part of with things like Doomgrinder, Scarlet Brotherhood, Return to the Tomb of Horrors, etc. In that case it's perhaps not fair to fault Roger, when it may have been higher up decision making that caused the shortcomings of the 98 relaunch. I'm inclined to accept this theory actually, considering that Roger's participation in the community prior to the relaunch showed a more adventure friendly, open attitude to the setting (See his Green Nightmare article on the Amedio Jungle in Oerth Journal for an example, that piece is among his better work, and delving further into his portfolio, his Star Frontiers and Traveller work of yore was much more evocative and inspiring than the way tAB came out) than what became the end product.
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 16:16:41	Great minds - I was thinking along those lines as well. ;) I was thinking this the other day. It starts off by listing a summary of the Return of the Eight and what happened, including a reference to the module, but then also goes on to detail the finding of the Crook of Rao (which could easily have been a really cool road-trip style series of modules or boxed set going through Aerdy to Rel Astra, and then possibly to Veluna) and various other hooks which lead you to think there was moree 585 CY modules planned as GH98. Mind you given as he planned them, there didn't seem to be room for multiple outcomes in the 591 CY writeups. Search for the Crook would make an excellent series of From the Ashes based modules for Dungeon! ;) Stuart
#14 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 17:20:27	Originally posted by skerrigan Search for the Crook would make an excellent series of From the Ashes based modules for Dungeon! ;)Stuart [/b] Hi Stuart Wasn't the search for the Crook of Rao the hook behind 'Fate of Istus'?
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 17:29:22	Urgh... no. The Fate of Istus's hook was that there was some sort of testing going on (read 1st Edition to 2nd Edition conversion) and the PCs were selected to undergo various trials, one for each class (urgh). The upshot of it was assassin's disappeared and monks were sent to Kara-Tur. Apparently it was Orientals who trained the Suel of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Obviously, we Onnwal Triad people accept this as canon and use it in all our modules. ;) The last part of Fate of Istus was an assault on Kro-Terlep, the SB's stronghold, which according to the map looked like an American city - divided into square 'blocks'. Bits of it are used as canon, especially in LG as each of the 9 or so mini-modules were set in differing cities, like Rauxes, Chendl, Wintershiven, Kro-Terlep (shudder). They were all by different people and some of them were ok, Rauxes is cool as it has a pretty usable map and most of the locations from Ivid are listed on it. Actually a search for the Crook of Rao module would be like that, a kind of 'road movie' module through Aerdy with the final destination being Rel Astra and beyond... Heck, if I'd the time I'd write that as a series for Dungeon. ;) Stuart Not really! :D
#16 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 17:47:58	I've obviously got my head still scrambled then, ta
#17 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 19:55:43	IIRC, the Crook was featured in Isle of the Ape, where PCs foil Iggwilv's plans. I'd love to see someone's take on Fireland and the coasts of Hepmonaland! And even though I finally started playing LGH, I'd much prefer to see these adventures published in Dungeon than as a LGH mod... Any takers? Depending on your timeline I might be able to edit or playtest...