Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 19:30:09	Hi hi folks! Working with planewalker.com at the moment on a project regarding celestials. Unfortunately, i dont have all the planescape resources at my disposal I would like to, as such, if you guys could help out and save me a little time it would be more than appriciated! What I need- Is a list of all known celestials. Just a list and what kind it is, ie guardnal etc. would be wonderful, if you want to be *extra* helpful, if it's obscure tell me where the reference to it actually is. Otherwise, just helping me with the list is great!
#2 factol_rhys_dup Jan 06, 2004 20:03:53	Well, let's see, I'll do it, using PS books, since I don't have most of the 3e books. Maybe someone can come after me and fill in where these can be found in 3e, if at all. Some, like the Aasimar and the Einheriar, are certainly not actual celestials, but they may be worth mentioning, depending on what this list is for. Aasimar (sort of): Planewalker's Guidebook, PSMC2 Aasimon- PSMC1 Agathinon Deva, Astral Deva, Monadic Deva, Movanic Light Aasimon Planetar Solar Archon- Planes of Law boxed set Lantern Archon Hound Archon Warden Archon Tome Archon Trumpet Archon Throne Archon Asuras- not sure where they are... one of the boxed sets? Einheriar (not really) PSMC1 Eladrin- PSMC2 Bralani Coure Noviere Shiere Firre Ghaele Tulani Guardinal- PSMC2 Avoral Cervidal Equinal Leonal Lupinal Ursinal Hollyphant (not really) PSMC2 Well, you've got the four main races, and some non-celestials who just happen to call kip to the same sorts of places. Plus asuras. Some of these can be found in the new MM, some more in the MM2, and some more in the Book of Exhaulted Deeds. Here's those that have been converted and are up on the SRD for free: http://geocities.com/sovelior/srd/monstersAtoZ.html.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 20:26:33	Thankee my most esteemed lady of the cadence! This is surely most helpful (particularly the listing of where the information is) Should you ever need the return favor, simply ask.
#4 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 06, 2004 20:58:29	(*pokes Fyrhowls player with a stack of material for this weekend's game with a merciless cackle*) There's also the Quesar from Belarian in Elysium, the now independant creations of the Aasimon.
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 06, 2004 20:59:46	What about Busen, the black goos of Arcadia?
#6 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 10:56:54	Unless the black goo is actually a celestial, and sentient, I'm not going to worry about it. Aasimar aren't included in this either for the moment, well not majorly anyhow. The other question being this as I research those races with the books given, Where, if they're not included in the references already given, can I find information on named/important celestial characters who played or play important roles regarding either their species, celestials as a whole, or celestial home planes. (oiyf what a mouth full). I dont need the stories of course as i'm going to research that myself, but a starting point for this as well, would be more than appriciated. (and theoretically that's the last outside list I need to do all the research I need to)
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 11:57:44	The thing is, its hard to identify "Celestials" in old 2e books. There is no Good Subtype, no Outsider type. The black goos are named Busen, a sentient race of morphic caretakers of Arcadia. They protect Buxenos from intrusion by those who are unworthy. Can they be counted as Celestials?
#8 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 12:16:10	Oh, I thought I'd point out Mimir.Com as an excellilent source of new Celestials, all of which are very creative and add alot the existing ones. Heres a list of all the new Celestials found on that site(It was once the official Planescape Site before Planeswalker, so pay ur respects berk) Aasimon, Arthurea Aasimon, Twilight Aasimon, Soul Child Guardinal, Ardeidal
#9 manowater989 Jan 07, 2004 17:37:20	And I'm curious, of all these different types of Celestials, which type is the closest to being considered the actual, official "angel". You know, with the white, feathery wings, golden harp (maybe) etc. ?
#10 sildatorak Jan 07, 2004 19:55:05	I'd say that the Aasimon are the closest thing to angels. They tend to have feathery wings, and a lot have incredible martial prowess, which fits in with the traditional concept of the angel (as opposed to the pop culture concept of it).
#11 factol_rhys_dup Jan 07, 2004 21:26:18	Probably why they are called angels in 3e. A change I never liked, and I'll continue to call them Aasimon any chance I get. I agree, they look a lot like angels (and so are the high-level Archons, and modern, Western, Judeo-Christian angels seem like they'd be more LG than NG, in this humble tiefling's opinion). Of course, I'd be one to ask, I spent some time on Elysium while some little squabble was going on here.
#12 factol_rhys_dup Jan 07, 2004 21:33:45	Specifically, I'd say the Astral Deva is the closest to an "angel," followed by a Solar. The astral deva has a picturesque form: a beautifully-formed body exemplifying near physical perfection. They have alabaster white skin, sport large feathery wings, and have the power to battle evil with sword or magic.
#13 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 07, 2004 22:04:20	"I'll come right out and say that I despise some of the name changes in 3e/3.5. Aasimon to Angel, the reincorporation of devil and demon, and the renaming of the Gehreleths to Demodands." "I feel the dumb meter raging to its limit when I see the Kyton renamed a chain devil, and the Gelugon as an Ice Devil. I know they still have the older, more expressive names, but half the time I see people refer to them by the 3.5/1e names it seems more often than not because they have problems remembering those really confusing devil names. Oooohhhh..." *emphatic and derogatory shiver* *ignores the conversation for a while and switches out several earrings and rings, examing each in turn in the mirror* "Yes I'm bitter about the seemingly arbitrary name changes. Whats next, renaming some of the Tanar'ri as type I, II, III, and IV demons? Oinoloth forbid they ever go that far, though doubtless there's some people that would enjoy that out of either fond memories for earlier editions, which I could understand if not agree with, or 'waaaah I can't remember the difference between a Vrock and a Hezrou. Those names are 2 confuzing 4 me.'" "There's my daily dip into my own little inkwell of bitterness and sarcasm."
#14 MephitJames Jan 07, 2004 23:03:50	Obviously the biggest problem with naming them devils, demons, and angels (and coming up with the sodding inevitables) is that they are just boogeymen now. In 2e you could have a cornugon who was a Baatorian guard sent to arrest a member of a PC party, or a monastic deva who was willing to serve as a guide to the party along Oceanus. They were races with histories and cultures, like any prime race. All a "horned devil" is good for is being summoned by a cultist leader, just like "angels" are only good for appearing in visions. There's no exotic flare or background culture, they're just various nightmares with mundane names. I like the order in 3e, but when it first came out it was that same order that pushed me away. The system seemed to generalized for me, no fine detail, only sweeping rules. Now I can see that the only loss of detail is in the flavor portion.
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 23:39:01	Originally posted by Fyrehowl Where, if they're not included in the references already given, can I find information on named/important celestial characters who played or play important roles regarding either their species, celestials as a whole, or celestial home planes. (oiyf what a mouth full). I dont need the stories of course as i'm going to research that myself, but a starting point for this as well, would be more than appriciated. (and theoretically that's the last outside list I need to do all the research I need to) The only one I can think of is Bahamut. It's not much, but it's a starting place anyhow. I don't know where you'd find it in 2e but in 3e Bahamut is listed in Deities and Demigods, under Mount Celestia, I believe. Although I've been known to be wrong.
#16 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 08, 2004 0:25:15	I don't think she was curious about what deities, like Bahamut are involved heavily on the upper planes, but rather the names of unique and/or noble celestials. One example would be Prince Talisad the Leonal prince of Elysium. The BoED changed out all of the other companions of the leonal prince for new ones though, and I don't recall their names off the top of my head. The older ones included Duke Lucan of the lupinals, and Duke Windheir of the Avorals IIRC. Then there's Queen Morwel of the Eladrin, and the 7 unique Tome Archons of Mount Celestia who I don't recall their names at the moment, they'e all listed in the BoED, intact from 2e thankfully. The fiendish heirarchy and nobility has been detailed much more extensively than the celestials from what I've seen.
#17 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 0:59:55	Sigh. Yeah, thats right, everyone just ignore my post completely! All I wanted to do was help!
#18 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 3:04:36	Sigh. Yeah, thats right, everyone just ignore my post completely! All I wanted to do was help! The mimir isn't, wasn't, and never has been, cannonical, at least as far as I know. I think this thread was supposed to be mostly about the stuff that was actually in the planescape books. Not that the Arthurea aren't wicked cool and all, (and one of my more memorable NPC's) but I'm pretty sure they're not cannon.
#19 wyvern76 Jan 08, 2004 3:39:36	Originally posted by Sword_Of_Geddon Sigh. Yeah, thats right, everyone just ignore my post completely! All I wanted to do was help! Issues of canon aside, I don't see why your post would need a response. Wyvern
#20 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 08, 2004 8:37:04	Mimir was the official fansite, but the material there was never considered canon. Though yes indeed, there is some wicked cool material there. I've used one or two ideas from there in my own campaign without regret.
#21 sildatorak Jan 08, 2004 10:59:42	I find that the mimir's cant and jink sections are especially excelent and don't see any reason for them not to be canon, seeing that they don't pose any significant changes. They just add a bunch of wonderful fluff.
#22 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 14:02:20	The Mimir was the old fansite, but also(I bet you didn't know this) the official site to find new Planescape content(Which means all of the stuff(Except for the spoof sects) on the site was indeed canon). It' be a real shame I'd think to allow all that great PS material to go to oblivion. Maybe you guys at Planeswalker could even get the people behind that site involved with creating 3rd Edition Planescape?
#23 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 08, 2004 14:22:01	It was a clearinghouse of fan submitted material, not canonical material. For instance, at least one sect I was looking up information on the other day has two different listings and descriptions on the mimir. Both of them are vastly different and contradictory. On Planewalker as I understand there's going to be a clear demarcation between what comprise the 'canon' releases on the site, and the areas of fan submitted material. Much of the fan material may indeed be great stuff, but neither is it required to fit the facts of the rest of the material or the canon releases which by their nature need to remain consistent with each other if at all possible. Heck I've used stuff on the mimir as idea mines when thinking up characters and plots for my own games. Sometimes a random snippet of a fan submission strikes a chord and gives you ideas of your own. Thats what its good for most often, even if you don't use it as written.
#24 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 14:31:43	True, its hard to write up stuff like the Quasi-Exotica Planes as cannon, but its fun nevertheless. Actually, by canon, I ment the monsters found on the site. Many of them(Especially the Mechanus monsters) are very orginal and fun to have in your game. I think it would be a good move to turn at least some of these critters into official Planescape Monsters.
#25 primemover003 Jan 08, 2004 14:39:05	the only Celestial I can remember off hand is the Defrocked Trumpet Archon Zalatian XXVII, from the Hellbound adventures. I'm not sure this is correct but he may have been in league with Cirily the Firre eladrin, Tripicus, the Ursinal Guardinal, and the Asuras (whose name escapes me ATM...) who were supplying arms for the Conflict Eternal.
#26 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 08, 2004 15:08:50	Actually, IIRC Zalatian shows up again in the 3e module 'Lord of the Iron Fortress' as a blackguard even, having fallen further than at the end of the Hellbound adventure. When I was playing in a game that ran that module, when we heard his name we all burst out laughing since we'd just finished running through the Hellbound adventures in another game I was playing in. *giggle* And that Asura was named Koe I believe.
#27 zombiegleemax Jan 09, 2004 20:13:33	There's Trias the Betrayer from Planescape: Torment. There is the Gotthammer from Urban Arcana campaign setting.
#28 MephitJames Jan 12, 2004 10:16:37	There's the fallen archon Alusiel who rules Mal Arundak from Faces of Evil. Also from Warriors of Heaven: There's also the Arch-Penitar of the Parliament of the Concordance (i.e. the big-wig in charge of the council that makes sure all the celestials play nice) who is a solar assimon named Zora Sebirati who serves Ra. On Muspelheim (second of Ysgard) there's the Tower of the War Triumphant, a white basalt structure dedicated to warring against the fiends with a permanent portal to the Abyss. The Tower's maintained by a planetar named Mezriel A female movanic deva named Ellacarzel "the Lady of the Clouds" in the service of Aerderie Faenya and who's sleeping with the Cloud King of Arcadia (he runs the clouds of that plane). Jekerl Steeljaws is a lupinal who leads the Wild Pack, a quintet of lupinals who roam the Prime looking for evil to smite.