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| #1zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 21:41:53 | It seems to me that the gods of magic are in dire straits these days. If they don't come up with a new plan, the revised DLCS should list them as Intermediate Deities or even Demigods. Why? They just don't seem to have any followers, nor do they seem to have ever had any. Lets look at the breakdown. The gods of magic have no clerics and therefore no churches, no congregations, no general followers. The gods of magic appeal only to persons who profession involves magic, a rather select group, but of those only members of the WoHS worship the gods of magic. The WoHS are 99% composed of humans and elves while all other races are exempt from bring branded renagades. The WoHS is an organization known only on Ansalon, all other land masses and civilizations under the waters and beneath the ground provide contain no worhsippers of the gods of magic. So the gods of magic are not worshipped by dwarves, kender, minotaurs, sea elves, centaurs, draconians, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, bakali, dragon spawn, nonwizard humans/elves, nonansalon humans/elves or renegade wizards. In other words, the gods of magic are a minor cult worshipped by a small group of elves and humans in Ansalon who are members of a select organization. Roughly one percent of one percent of the population of Ansalon divided by three. With such extremely small numbers and no active clergy seeking followers it is amazing the gods of magic were not lost to history long ago. It seems impossible they will be to maintain any presence on Krynn with the handful of wizards they will recruit over the next few decades. |
| #2zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 21:43:48 | ... Worshippers do not equal power in DL, at least not from everything we've seen. Also, on Taladas the Moon Gods are revered. |
| #3dragontoothJan 06, 2004 21:54:03 | If you read the DLCS under Wizards on the regular classes. Under the heading religion. It states ALL Wizards who cast spells worship one of the 3 moon gods, and must choose one as a patron deity. |
| #4zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 21:54:05 | [i]Also, on Taladas the Moon Gods are revered. [/b] The DLCS is very clear, the only followers the gods of magic have ever had are the members of the WoHS. This was established to clear up any confusion about clerics of the gods of magic in previous publications. |
| #5zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 21:57:52 | And I'm telling you that the WoHS doesn't exist on Taladas and they are worshipped there. DO they have Clerics? No. bu tthey are worshipped. You are overreading, especially since the DLCS is all about Ansalon and not at all about Taladas. |
| #6zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 21:58:42 | Originally posted by Dragontooth According to another thread, that appears to be a typo. Renagades and other nonWoHS wizards are not worshippers of the gods of magic. |
| #7dragontoothJan 06, 2004 22:03:41 | I've never seen offical printing saying that WoHS don't exsist on Taladas. If your the DM put the WoHS on there. |
| #8zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 22:08:57 | Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime Yes I agree that the original information on Taladas would seem to imply that. But considering the cleric/wizard issues. The consensus reached in other threads is that only WoHS are folowers of the gods of magic. |
| #9zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 22:15:41 | I've never seen any of these toher threads have any debate about Taladasian Wizardly practices. In any case, the gods of Magic control all Wizardly magic. When they vanished so did the power of all Mages, Renegade and WoHS. One could make the case that anyone using the Wizardly traditions of arcane magic, whether officially sanctioned or not, is sending some small amount of worship to the three moon gods. Just like growing a proze crop of corn is actually a nod to an agriculture god whether or not you whisper an oath or not. |
| #10DragonhelmJan 06, 2004 22:39:22 | Originally posted by SageofKaolyn They are gods of arcane magic. They don't need clerics, congregations, or general followers. The gods of magic appeal only to persons who profession involves magic, a rather select group, but of those only members of the WoHS worship the gods of magic. Some sorcerers also revere the gods of magic, as well as lesser wizards who have not yet taken the Test. Even some renegades may worship the gods of magic. Wizards on other continents worship the gods of magic as well. Besides, how many other gods only appeal to a select few? Kiri-Jolith seems to be worshipped primarily by Knights of Solamnia and a very few minotaurs. Better yet, what of Morgion? I highly doubt many people would want to flock to the god of pestilence and decay. The WoHS are 99% composed of humans and elves while all other races are exempt from bring branded renagades. A select few are, but even at that, there are conditions. For example, gnomes who practice wizardry in Mt. Nevermind are exempt. Take him outside of Mt. Nevermind, he has to take the Test or be branded a renegade. I'm certain the same can be said for minotaurs and the minotaur isles. The WoHS is an organization known only on Ansalon, all other land masses and civilizations under the waters and beneath the ground provide contain no worhsippers of the gods of magic. There are wizards on Taladas, and some sea elves revere the gods of magic as well. So the gods of magic are not worshipped by dwarves, kender, minotaurs, sea elves, centaurs, draconians, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, bakali, dragon spawn, nonwizard humans/elves, nonansalon humans/elves or renegade wizards. While most of those races are not known for having too many wizards, you can't rule the possibility out entirely. Flint's Axe introduced the minotaur wizard Rikar, for example. As mentioned above, some sorcerers revere the gods of magic (DLCS, p. 53). In other words, the gods of magic are a minor cult worshipped by a small group of elves and humans in Ansalon who are members of a select organization. Roughly one percent of one percent of the population of Ansalon divided by three. They're not interested in clergy and general followers so much as they are in the study of arcane magic, which is their domain. Does magic benefit more from a several dabblers, or a select few who give their all to magic? Oftentimes, I'll see people who who do not understand the idea of gods who don't have clerics and don't grant divine magic. We have it in our heads somehow that gods will always want to have clerics and "general" followers. Why is that? Do we stereotype the gods? Sure, the WoHS are having a tough time right now, but with the gods of magic backing them, they'll be rebuilding soon enough. Yes, they are "niche" gods, but they are not the only ones. Each god has his own area of control, leaving them with a select number of followers. |
| #11DragonhelmJan 06, 2004 22:48:45 | Originally posted by Dragontooth From the Time of the Dragon boxed set, pages 6-7...
Skip ahead, skip ahead...
So there you have it. Official proof that the Orders of High Sorcery do not exist in Taladas. |
| #12zombiegleemaxJan 06, 2004 23:07:55 | Here are the questions I can't resolve. Are they the gods of magic or the gods of WoHS magic? Who are affected by the phases of the moons? What relationship do the gods of magic have with non-WoHS wizards? Why are the gods of magic so focused on the WoHS when the organization is so limited in its racial make-up and geographic reach? All the other true gods can translate themselves to all races and all lands. The gods of magic appear to have only one message and only to the humans and elves of Ansalon. Is that enough? |
| #13cam_banksJan 06, 2004 23:39:32 | Originally posted by SageofKaolyn They are the gods of arcane magic. Who are affected by the phases of the moons? Those wizards who have aligned themselves with the gods of magic and entered into a covenant with them, notably the Wizards of High Sorcery. What relationship do the gods of magic have with non-WoHS wizards? They focus the power of high sorcery back to Krynn, filtering out the energies of Chaos from ambient wild magic and making this focused magic available to those who possess an understanding of wizard magic. Why are the gods of magic so focused on the WoHS when the organization is so limited in its racial make-up and geographic reach? Those races are the ones with the greatest potential to become wizards. There are far fewer actual wizards in the other races for reasons as varied as cultural intolerance of magic (most dwarves), a cultural focus on warfare and martial prowess over academic study (most minotaurs), lack of concentration and discipline to use wizard magic (most kender), etc. All the other true gods can translate themselves to all races and all lands. The gods of magic appear to have only one message and only to the humans and elves of Ansalon. Is that enough? They are given names by all races and cultures. In those cultures where wizards are less common, the gods of magic are respected and honored for their power manifest in magic items, their position as moons in the sky demarcating seasonal and calendar cycles, their mythological aspects as children of the greater gods, and so forth. More abstractly, Solinari is known as a god interested in protection against magic, and might be invoked to ward against evil magic (whether or not he answers doesn't seem to matter - this is superstition, after all); Lunitari is a goddess of secrets and illusions, and might be revered for her role in the mysteries of Krynn; and Nuitari, unseen by most, is whispered about in secret by those with malicious intent and respected by evil shamans and mystics for his role in the dissemination of necromantic lore. Cheers, Cam |
| #14darthsylverJan 07, 2004 0:08:15 | Alright break-down time. First - On Ansalon the Gods of magic are seen as gods, and are at the least revered, if not worshipped, by the WoHS. On Taladas they are not officially recognized as gods but as elemental forces of supreme power. Second - On Ansalon only the WoHS are affected by the moons of magic. On Taladas everyone must choose a moon and are therefore affected by the Moons of magic. Third - The only race that it had been declared off-limits to becoming a WOHS was the kender. There is nothing stopping any other race from becoming a WoHS. One may even presumably consider that the kender may be allowed to be a WoHS is their commitment is strong enough. Look at the afflicted kender. I could definitely see some of these guys becoming WoHS focusing in defense, hence Abjurers. Fourth - The gods of magic have always fought to bring magic into the world. The WoHS were established because the populace (on Ansalon) became a threat to the existence of magic. Now with the abundance of sorcerors and hopefully the return of normal wizards and WoHS the term renegade may become extinct. I seriously doubt that magic is in danger of being completely destroyed or erased from the face of Krynn. Practioners of Magic On Ansalon in 2E: There were clerics of the gods of magic. According to Magaret Weis clerics of the gods of magic were never intended and therefore never existed even though there were rules governing this. They were not affected by the moons of magic. Non WoHS Arcane magic users. Bards existed (as they are referenced to in books and game sourcebooks) but did not have magical abilities, so they may have been a off-class of the thief class and not the Bard class as described in the 2E PHB. As such they were not affected by the moons because they had no magical powers. Wizards- If you were a WoHS you were affected by the moons as well as the gods who could effectively "shut off" your magic if you upset them. Non-WoHS\Renegades - Anyone not a member of the WoHS is a renegade and therfor not subject to the moons of magic or the gods of magic. This is why they represented such a threat to magic. They could effectively do anything they wanted and unless the WoHS (or some other mortals) destroyed\stopped them the gods could not interfere. Thorn Knights - Officially renegades. Were affected in a more favorable way by the moons of magic than even the WoHS, but are not affected by the gods of magic. How Takhisis pulled that off is anyone's guess. On Ansalon in 3E WoHS - Presumably no change. Clerics - The Gods of magic no longer (and apparently never did) grant divine spells so no clerics. Bards - As a result of the releasing of chaos bards now have arcane power. How they will be affected by the moons or the gods of magic is unknown and not explored yet. Non-WoHS Wizards - Presumably the same as renegades before the WoS. Sorcerors - As their power comes from the releasing of Chaos into the world, and the gods of magic established the WoHS to prevent this from happening, one may assume they will be renegades, not affected by the moons or the gods and declared renegade and hunted. Thorn Knights - No longer affected by the moons of magic. On Taladas in 2E: Clerics - The gods of magic were recognized as gods proper and therefore had no clerics. Bards - Again bards were more referred to as those who promote music, art, and poetry and not the spell-casting class as portrayed in the 2E PHB and therefore may have been an off-shoot of the thief class. WoHS - No oficial organization to which these guys belonged to. Some WoHS may have been on Taladas but they migrated from Ansalon. Non-WoHS\Renegades - All magic-users on Taladas would have been considered renegades by the WoHS. However it stated in the Rule book of Taladas that all wizards, illusionists whatever - Anybody who used Arcane magic must choose (if this was strictly imposed it is never explained) to align themselves with one of the three moons and therefore are affected by the moons. (One could postulate that if a renegade on Ansalon aligned himself with a moon, then he would receive the benefits of the moons?) On Taladas in 3E Everything is up in the air as nothing is written for taladas in 3E yet. Don't know if the Taladasians have even discovered Sorcery\Mysticism. Taladas is in effect a ball of clay waiting to be shaped. |
| #15talinthasJan 07, 2004 1:09:04 | well, taladas has the cha'asi, and their magic is awfully similar to sorcery, imo. |
| #16zombiegleemaxJan 07, 2004 1:38:36 | Originally posted by darthsylver Actually the three Taladas adventures featured three npcs who are clerics of Nuitari and each call him by a different name. I don't remember exactly, but the Taladas dwarves had a bard kit that a think was an arcane casters. |
| #17zombiegleemaxJan 07, 2004 1:42:12 | Originally posted by Cam Banks Specifically though, what relationship exists between non-WoHS wizards and the gods of magic? Do the gods of magic continually funnel back focused arcane magic upon Krynn only to have the vast number of wizards on the planet spit in their face and do whatever they want with it? Why has the WoHS never expanded geographically. Why are only those on Ansalon called to a greater understanding of magic? What about the irda and the sea elves and other races with a potential for magic? |
| #18ferratusJan 07, 2004 2:22:56 | Uh oh, Terry is talking about magic again... everybody run! ;) The way I see it, the start of it all is having innate magical talent. The ability for someone to access magic. The ability manifests depending on their training. Wizardry depends on the revelations of the lunar dieties and the teachings of their order. Sorcery however is largely self-taught even if you have a mentor. Sorcery is shaped by sheer force of will, and can manifest in almost innumerable different traditions. The sorcerer class covers the 5th Age academy understanding of sorcery, but the bardic colleges can have their own traditions of song magic, and numerous other prestige classes can have spontaneous casters that reflect unique sorcery traditions as well. Those who are not taught to control their innate gifts through sorcererous discovery or wizardly rites ultimately lose control of it, like Raistlin's mother. Those who break from the Wizards of High Sorcery to become renegades usually destroy themselves and those around them in much the same fashion. It is interesting to note that Wizardly renegades are the ones who break from the teachings of high sorcery, to wield power they were not destined to wield. Thus the wizards and the gods of magic weave into their spells formulas which render the secrets unintelligible and even dangerous to those who have not been properly initiated. (See Dalamar's attempt to read Raistlin's spellbooks in Time of the Twins). Now, it simply does not make sense that the gods of magic would go to such lengths to keep magic under control in one continent, and completely ignore it in another. For that reason, while the WoHS might consider their counterparts on Taladas renegades if they encountered them, the moon gods know better. Wizardly is kept well under control through the traditions of mentor and apprentice. The mentor watches, teaches, and helps the younger wizard along his path to destiny. Thus I would argue that the Taladan wizards have the important traditions of High Sorcery, just not the Order of High Sorcery itself. As for the wizards of High Sorcery, I prefer a more cosmopolitan view of the conclave myself, given that those gifted with magic who are not given proper training go insane or do other things that renegades do with magic. So I say there are dwarves, minotaurs, ogres, goblins, and even kender who are wizards, and the exceptionally bright among them are Wizards of High Sorcery. Humans and elves are just more common in the Wizard's conclave because they have the most extensive magical traditions. IMO, every sentient mortal race on Krynn however has at least one member of the Order of High Sorcery. |
| #19darthsylverJan 07, 2004 7:25:59 | Was that Ferratus discussing magic, oh sh** everybody duck. :fight!: Yes there were 3 clerics of nuitari in the Modules. (2 of which referred to him using the same name.) These seem to be the exception to rule. One of the many contradictions in DL. |
| #20cam_banksJan 07, 2004 8:44:21 | Originally posted by SageofKaolyn Not quite. There are additional benefits inherent in forging a covenant with one of the gods of magic which renegades and unaligned wizards don't get to enjoy, but as a whole the gods of magic don't seem to have a problem with simply reflecting back the untainted power to Krynn on a broad scale. I've debated this topic over and over and over with several message board regulars, and so I suggest going back through the board archives and looking for some of those long and deeply philosophical threads for more insight. Alternately, you can wait until around June for the Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook, which should answer a lot of questions and perhaps raise a few more. Cheers, Cam |
| #21zombiegleemaxJan 07, 2004 20:06:19 | One thing to note is that in Dragonlance there is no relationship between a god's strength and power and the number of worshippers he (or she) has in the world. Remember there have been two periods where the gods were not worshipped at all, and the gods did not seem to lose a bit of strength for the lack of worship. While influence over Krynn's mortal races is a goal of most every god, it is not something they "need" to survive or thrive. The idea of gods being dependent upon worshippers was explored very well in Weis & Hickman's ROSE OF THE PROPHET trilogy. ** Jamie |
| #22darthsylverJan 08, 2004 12:22:42 | Good books to by the way. |
| #23stunsporeJan 09, 2004 4:38:06 | Actually the gods were apparently weakened during the Dragons of Vanished Moon, which was why they went with Raistlin's plan then just going to Krynn directly. Also, the gods of magic are also gods of teh moon, so they may receive worship for that aspect (e.g. sailors, sea elves, any one who needs night light, etc). In Taladas, they are revered as source of power, and as such wizards need to choose a source (moon)for more power (higher level spells). Finally, as said before, any use of arcane magic (including sorceror) is probably a form of worship. I'm sure the gods of magic could probably suppress wild magic with they powers. Probably why the Towers were built in the first place. |
| #24darthsylverJan 09, 2004 11:08:36 | I thought they went with Raistlin's plan so as to not let Takhisis know that she had been found. |