Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 07, 2004 10:39:35	Okay, this is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway. When someone dies, they become a Petitioner. Where they go depends on their alignment. What happens if someone dies on a plane that is opposed to their alignment? If a paladin dies in Baator, does he magicly reconstitute as a petitioner on Mt. Celestia, or is his "soul" stuck on Baator...?
#2 Shemeska_the_Marauder Jan 07, 2004 11:17:59	Presumably it migrates to the plane that matches their alignment (their worship of a deity gives a specific power a tug on the petitioner to a specific domain on that plane). The only thing that I can see that might prevent this from happening is if a fiend or some other creature (Shadow Fiends spring to mind) entraps the newly dead person's soul before it migrates.
#3 taotad Jan 07, 2004 11:46:44	Shemeshka has given you the facts. To take it a step further; When a petitioner dies, it's absorbed into its deity or the plane itself that matches the planes identity. But when a petitioner dies on another plane then the one she should be on, the soul is lost forever. That's the main reason petitioners stay at home, when they finally arrive. There's an exception to the rule, and that's a dwarf god on Arcadia I believe (might as well be somewhere else), that takes his petitioners back from the battlefields of his enemies, but doesn't tell the petitioners of this themself. He wants them to prove their loyalty by loosing the chance to join him when they die. The rule on deaders moving on to become petitioners have some small faults. People believing in reincarnation shouldn't go anywhere but back to their world, but I don't remember seeing something about that in the PS setting. What happens to people who don't want an afterlife? Maybe the culture the people live in has some effect to how they migrate in the afterlife? If coming from a strict and crule culture, any one-time-pickpocker would go on to the abyss. In a more tolerant society the pickpocket would be given a new chance at attaining heaven. Guess it boils down to the prime world ideals and expectations?
#4 ashramry Jan 07, 2004 16:08:11	Originally posted by taotad The rule on deaders moving on to become petitioners have some small faults. People believing in reincarnation shouldn't go anywhere but back to their world, but I don't remember seeing something about that in the PS setting. What happens to people who don't want an afterlife? Maybe the culture the people live in has some effect to how they migrate in the afterlife? If coming from a strict and crule culture, any one-time-pickpocker would go on to the abyss. In a more tolerant society the pickpocket would be given a new chance at attaining heaven. Guess it boils down to the prime world ideals and expectations? [/b] erm, not quite. the laws of what constitutes good, evil, law and chaos are constant. if someone commits the minor crime of pickpocketing in Ortho (the harmonium homeworld) that is not enough to get them to to be sentenced to pandemonium forever. though it may well be that they suffer in prison some what unjustly for a long period of time. reguarding the reincarnation thing, most of those souls will travel to the home of their respective god or pantheon, to be jucged before returning to the prime in a new life. the home of the celestial bueracracy on the outlands is one such place. those who truely believe in nothing, are occasionally in for one hell of a surprise after they die as they travel to the plane of their alingment reguardless of if they are religious. ashy
#5 sildatorak Jan 07, 2004 19:36:20	I'd actually say that the collective beliefs of a world are enough to shape the fate of the dead from that world. Faerun (even before the crazy new cosmology) had the faithless dead taken to the City of the Dead rather than an appropriately aligned plane. This is pretty atypical, though, and just goes to show that dying is as pointlessly random as living.
#6 taotad Jan 08, 2004 6:03:28	Originally posted by ashramry erm, not quite. the laws of what constitutes good, evil, law and chaos are constant. ashy Hoping this thread will not be sucked into a ethics/morality discussion, I hope you still respect my opinion here. I interpret the alignment rules in a more subjective manner, where the belief of a individuals society decides what kind of afterlife they will have. In several cosmologies there are a limited number of heavens and hells, which in my theory will have to end up in the options presented to them in their belief system. If there is only The Abyss and Mt. Celestia on a particular prime, then there are only those two options for an afterlife. IMO that's what causes layers of planes to slide and shift. Too many petitioners that misunderstood the options of the multiverse presented to them, and ending up changing the organization of the outer planes. It complicates things enormously, but these questions have never been easy to answer anyway. The variant of subjective alignment can be found in the Book of Vile Darkness for parties interested.
#7 ashramry Jan 08, 2004 10:13:09	Originally posted by taotad Hoping this thread will not be sucked into a ethics/morality discussion, I hope you still respect my opinion here. granted Originally posted by taotad I interpret the alignment rules in a more subjective manner, where the belief of a individuals society decides what kind of afterlife they will have. [/b] ok. and i must say it leads to some interesting story ideas Originally posted by taotad In several cosmologies there are a limited number of heavens and hells, which in my theory will have to end up in the options presented to them in their belief system. If there is only The Abyss and Mt. Celestia on a particular prime, then there are only those two options for an afterlife. IMO that's what causes layers of planes to slide and shift. Too many petitioners that misunderstood the options of the multiverse presented to them, and ending up changing the organization of the outer planes. [/b] but this isnt true. as is the case with krynn in 2nd ed. it only had one plane that people knew of the abyss was the entireity of the outer and inner planes for the mass of people living there (definition of clueless) but you will find krynnish petitioners on all the outer planes, not just limited to those which are homes to some the krynnish pantheon. Originally posted by taotad It complicates things enormously, but these questions have never been easy to answer anyway. The variant of subjective alignment can be found in the Book of Vile Darkness for parties interested. [/b] true, and as good of a book as that was, PS always took the view of absolute alignment. look at the harmonium's goof with the layer of arcadia falling to mechanus...in a subjective alignment based system, what the harmonium were doing wouldnt have had such dire repercussions. ashy
#8 sildatorak Jan 08, 2004 11:11:42	As I think about it more, I don't think that it is the society that determines the options in the afterlife, it is the pantheon of whatever world is there. My realms example is probably due to the interference of powers (or over-powers), and it is clear that you can mis-match a petitioner's alignment to the plane if they are in the realm of their deity. I think I may have to round up some anarchists and athar and put an end to this... Ah, screw it.
#9 taotad Jan 08, 2004 12:17:45	Originally posted by ashramry true, and as good of a book as that was, PS always took the view of absolute alignment. look at the harmonium's goof with the layer of arcadia falling to mechanus...in a subjective alignment based system, what the harmonium were doing wouldnt have had such dire repercussions. ashy Can't say I absolutely agree with you on the fact Planescape being objective alignment focused. The fact that planar slides can, and do occur disproves that fact rather nicely. In a completely objective alignment system the planes' arrangement should be etched in stone, and nothing anyone would do could ever change them. If the ideals of objectivity were the backbone of the setting, law would prevail at any time. The simple fact that there are two aspects of morality (chaos and law) makes alignment something that changes as time goes. I think there is a fault in regarding the alignment rules as something that's a constant (balance). If it is it contradicts the rule of change. In fact I can easily see moralities and ethics would be widely different on the material plane in more barbaric times. There wouldn't be much law then. The chaos and evil side of the ring would dominate the organization of the planes, with the law/good axis only having two, or maybe three planes, while the different aspects of chaos/evil would have the remaining fourteen, or fifteen planes. This age in Planescape would probably be the age of neutrality, with the multitude of planes having the neutral descriptor, and even with the recent slide of an Arcadian layer into Mechanus as proof of that. Arcadia slipping was certainly much due to the Harmoniums influence, but I find it hard to believe that their little organization did anything then add the little drop that was needed for the water to spill. Originally posted by ashramry ...you will find krynnish petitioners on all the outer planes, not just limited to those which are homes to some the krynnish pantheon. That, I didn't know. Live and learn.
#10 zombiegleemax Jan 08, 2004 12:33:15	Originally posted by taotad Hoping this thread will not be sucked into a ethics/morality discussion, I hope you still respect my opinion here. As do I. I've had far too many unenlightening discussions on this topic with one of my own players. I'm compelled to say couple things thing: first, that you could extend your line of thought to individuals rather than whole societies. Then you've reached self-defined subjective alignment and IMHO, once you reach that point the entire alignment system becomes absolutely meaningless. Second, you could argue that subjectivity at the level you're talking about already exists. Evil-aligned D&D races would hardly attach the same stigma to the word that we do. After all, if they are appropriately evil they get to take their afterlife in their diety's realm, same as followers of good-aligned powers. That may seem like a raw deal to you and I, but it's probably ideal to them. What more could a dead orc want but to fight to establish the supremacy of his people? Some call it evil; they call it "right-mindedness". On the other hand, I bet if you took them to Elysium they'd find it boring. Edit: Spelling.
#11 taotad Jan 08, 2004 12:53:43	Originally posted by overtrick As do I. I've had far too many unenligntening discussions on this topic with one of my own players. I'm compelled to say couple things thing: first, that you could extend that line of thought to individuals rather than whole societies. Then you've reached self-defined subjective alignment and IMHO, once you reach that point the entire alignment system becomes absolutely meaningless. Indeed. That's where you have to set the line. And believe me the line I set is as gray as gray can possibly be. You have to take the belief structure of society into account, and you even have to take into account the entire belief structure of the prime to get a good grip. One could say that there is a plane for the overall philosophy of all the prime: The Outer Plane. Then divide that into the different smaller planes, and the divide that into individual layers, and then again into locations on those layers. Each of these division represent a division in belief. Originally posted by overtrick Second, you could argue that subjectivity at the level you're talking about already exists. Evil-aligned D&D races would hardly attach the same stigma to the word that we do. After all, if they are appropriately evil they get to take their afterlife in their diety's realm, same as followers of good-aligned powers. That may seem like a raw deal to you and I, but it's probably ideal to them. What more could a dead orc want but to fight to establish the supremacy of his people? Some call it evil; they call it "right-mindedness". That's the thought I'm shooting for.
#12 ashramry Jan 08, 2004 14:11:28	Originally posted by taotad Can't say I absolutely agree with you on the fact Planescape being objective alignment focused. The fact that planar slides can, and do occur disproves that fact rather nicely. In a completely objective alignment system the planes' arrangement should be etched in stone, and nothing anyone would do could ever change them. If the ideals of objectivity were the backbone of the setting, law would prevail at any time. The simple fact that there are two aspects of morality (chaos and law) makes alignment something that changes as time goes. I think there is a fault in regarding the alignment rules as something that's a constant (balance). If it is it contradicts the rule of change. . have to copmpletely disagree here. it seems more likely that because planes DO slide that there is some sort of objective judge which determines what acts constitute evil and what is merely annoying. the individuals take on it is irrelevant. think on it this way, many of the barmies who are in pandemonium genuinely think themsleves to be "Good" but that doesnt mean whole sections of the madhouse are flying off into limbo or even farther into ysgard. but the society that these people live in is such that ethical questions are somewhat overlooked, and there madness is considered the norm. and whats this rule of change? ive never heard of it. reminds me of the joke about everything always being the same in limbo. ashy
#13 taotad Jan 08, 2004 15:17:11	Originally posted by ashramry (...)and whats this rule of change? ive never heard of it.(...) Me neither. Don't know what hat i pulled that from. Please disregard stupid portions of posts in the future. Originally posted by ashramry have to copmpletely disagree here. it seems more likely that because planes DO slide that there is some sort of objective judge which determines what acts constitute evil and what is merely annoying. the individuals take on it is irrelevant. The individuals take on things are indeed irrelevant in the larger picture. I've not included individuals before, and I sincerly don't intend to start involving them now. I just say that a group of individuals (aka society) determines what the outer planes look like. In a way I agree with you in you assessment of an objective judge. It's just that I think that judge is the collected belief of all thinking beings on the material plane. "And again the great wyrm bit his own tale."