The short - I thought it sucked.
The long - Here's why. Basically each section is a few pages on a unique topic. As an example, Dragonlance has the Bozak Draconians, Birthright (a good section) has the rules for bloodlines. Dark Sun talks about Defilers.
Basically the system is as such - as you defile you get defile points. I'm going to call them.... oh Dark Side
points. As you accumulate them (and you get them for defiling and more for higher level spells and/or metamagic uses), you get penalties to stats (cha and something to start I believe). Eventually your charater takes on an undead template and the PC goes to the DM. To remove your points, you have to meditate, with more points removed the more the vegetation.If I wanted to play Star Wars I would. I will not use this system in my campaign at all.
edit: I just found this on the Birthright boards. I didn't notice this myself, but I didn't read the whole thing.
by irdeggman
The note in the Wyrm’s Turn really got my ire up.
"You know the best part? This issue is only a prelude to our next spectacular Dragon and Dungeon crossover event. In May 2004, we're going to release the Dark Sun campaign setting, revised for D&D 3.5! Happily it will see print about the time the revised 3.5 Psionics Handbook hits the shelves, enabling you to explore Athas fully armed for its many perils."
Gosh I thought that the "official" DS 3.5 material was already published on by the Athas.org team after nearly 4 years of work and input by the many fans. This blatant disregard for this effort, and unless I'm mistaken the previous agreement with WotC that the official fan site (Athas.org) could publish the "Official" 3.0/3.5 conversion material.
If the WOC Dark Sun is similar to that article, I see no reason to purchase it.
Bad, bad, bad.
I do not know what athas.org's relationship to WoTC is in regards to this new 3.5 release of stuff but I hope they had input. The release athas.org has on their site is very well done and should not be simply pushed aside by something from WoTC. But I should not bash until I actually see the new rules/boxed set/what ever the hell it is.
Originally posted by Belyn Goldentree
Thankfully someone else bought the magazine so I do not have to. That is horrible. If this is where they are taking the campaign they may as well not release anything!
Buy? Screw that, I read it in the bookstore. If it was any good at all I would've picked it up.
Oh yeah and the Birthright section was not good (see the rest of my post on that) it was very incomplete and inconsistent with how 2nd ed Birthright had things set up - especially the draw of Azrai to evil.
The one thing that was good about the issue was that it was drawing attention to the classic campaigns that have not been supported by WotC - that is good.
Originally posted by Belyn Goldentree
Thankfully someone else bought the magazine so I do not have to. That is horrible. If this is where they are taking the campaign they may as well not release anything!
If they follow their pattern, I'd say that it would indeed be the basis of any new DS material, based on the fact that many PrCs, feats, etc begin in Dragon and get sucked up into later core books.
As far as Athas.org, I think that Dragon rather create original material than use something from the official fansites...which defeats the stated purpose of said fansites
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I was extremely disappointed. Are we to believe that all defilers will turn into undead if they practice their art?
Defilers, no.
Wizards that defile a crap load of times and never become defilers, yes.
Huge difference. ;)
Take this (whatever "this" is):
!
I blame all the drugs I take. Even so, I don't like the idea that some who defiles A LOT will turn into an undead. In that case, Rajaat would be undead, all the champions would be undead, and so on. Personally, I would never use the system, Dungeon, Dragon, or whoever. Athas.org's is just much smoother. And richer.
And it doesn't leave a sticky film around your mouth....
Again, I blame the drugs and copious amounts of cotton candy.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I blame all the drugs I take. Even so, I don't like the idea that some who defiles A LOT will turn into an undead. In that case, Rajaat would be undead, all the champions would be undead, and so on. Personally, I would never use the system, Dungeon, Dragon, or whoever. Athas.org's is just much smoother. And richer.
Amen brother.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
IEven so, I don't like the idea that some who defiles A LOT will turn into an undead. In that case, Rajaat would be undead, all the champions would be undead, and so on.
Now, now, think before you post, I expect more from you, heh.
Rajaat isn't an undead because he discovered the durn thing called magic in the first place, makes sense to me that he is able to dance around this, or just be flat out immune.
The champions were the best of Rajaat's student defilers. Not sure how they would become undead since they are defilers and not merely wizards who defile alot, like I said before, huge difference.
Yeah, the Dragon system is a little cooky, but after reviewing it along with the athas.org one, not sure why you can't take the best of both and combine the two.
I.E. can't get into certain PrCs unless you are a defiler and not just a wizard who defiles.
When you defile you can cast metamagic on the fly, but with a price.
Works for me! Plus it should shut up the whiners from months past that were griping about the athas.org system.
Tis all good. ;)
Granted, dragons and Rajaat can probably dance around it, but what's the point of having a defiler who has to limit his power to avoid becoming an undead? I'll check it when I get home, but I could see how one defiler, say, a King's defiler, in a war could easily use up the alotment of goodie-points and become undead on the spot.
They made a valiant attempt on a difficult subject, I'll give the Dragon boys that, but it's not a system I would use.
Just to really drive the point home, I'll use an emoticon:
Wait, that's not right. Try this one:
:sad:
Yes. Yesssssss...muuuuuuuch better. Ahhhhhhhhh....
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Granted, dragons and Rajaat can probably dance around it, but what's the point of having a defiler who has to limit his power to avoid becoming an undead? I'll check it when I get home, but I could see how one defiler, say, a King's defiler, in a war could easily use up the alotment of goodie-points and become undead on the spot.
You're still not getting my point.
In the Dragon system there is a difference between a wizard that defiles and a Defiler.
A wizard that defiles will eventually become a tliz if they a) don't give in and become a defiler, b) don't make nice with a druid and repent, 0r c) keep defiling till their hearts content
If you've already given in and become a defiler then you can defile till your heart is content and not worry about becoming a tliz.
:D
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
If you've already given in and become a defiler then you can defile till your heart is content and not worry about becoming a tliz.
It's damn too easy to become a undead tliz! If it would be that easy, there would be swarm of tliz over athas?! Beside, there is already an official document on the undead of athas. I dont see the point of defiling and becoming undead. What's the connection...?!
Originally posted by Grummore
It's damn too easy to become a undead tliz! If it would be that easy, there would be swarm of tliz over athas?! Beside, there is already an official document on the undead of athas. I dont see the point of defiling and becoming undead. What's the connection...?!
It's not quite as easy as you think, most wizards that defile and continue to defile won't become a tliz till their mid to higher levels.
That's not counting them losing some DP on the way, because if I remember correctly they can meditate or something in verdant terrain to get rid of some defiler points.
I know the tliz write up is TotDL is contradicted by this, but I'm willing to work with it a little.
Maybe change it from a Tliz to something else, or say they make a fort save or die when it's time to become a tliz, at that point they have a percentage chance (based on alignment and how much they actually defiled, whether they meditated or not, etc) of becoming a tliz.
Sorry, but I just think the system is still workable, even though I was against it at the begining too. Brainstorming is evil sometimes I guess.
:D
Since I'm not at home, though, were they saying a Preserver who defiles will turn into a t'liz? If that's the case, why don't defilers turn into t'liz? Actually, disregard - I can probably figure it out if I reread the article.
They are refering to any wizard that defiles that doesn't give in and just become a defiler.
That's what the defiler points are for.
Took me a few reads to relize this as well.
Just trying to make sure everyone understands what it is trying to do, if you still don't like it after that that's fine.
If it would be that easy, there would be swarm of tliz over athas?!
There are swarms of tliz in my version of Athas
. . . . then again, most everything in my version comes in swarms . . . rampagers, nightmare beasts, drakes . . . dragons . . . ummm, you get the idea.
mwuahahahahhaha
There seems to be some confusion on what this system does, and I think it is quite useable despite the whole T'liz thing which is easy to modify.
There's defiler points, which any wizard gets when they defile, and then there is a defiler score. The defiler score you receive once you assume the taint of your defiler points, with the defiler score equaling half your defiler points rounded up.
Once you assume the taint all defiler points are reset to 0. So, if the wizard is smart and really wants to be a defiler, she could manipulate it enough to where she never has to worry about becoming a T'liz, and all the defiler score does is make you not very likeable with druids, which already existed in the setting, now they just have a way to detect you.
Looking at what is required to become a T'liz, 41+ defiler points is rather hard to accumulate up to if you don't assume the taint, if you do assume the taint on a regular basis, I cant see how you would ever have to worry about becoming a T'liz.
Hope that clears up everything.
T'Liz scrab?
Muuuuuwwaaaahhh hahahahahahahaha!!!
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
There's defiler points, which any wizard gets when they defile, and then there is a defiler score. The defiler score you receive once you assume the taint of your defiler points, with the defiler score equaling half your defiler points rounded up.
Once you assume the taint all defiler points are reset to 0. So, if the wizard is smart and really wants to be a defiler, she could manipulate it enough to where she never has to worry about becoming a T'liz, and all the defiler score does is make you not very likeable with druids, which already existed in the setting, now they just have a way to detect you.
What I read out of the article was the same, but I didn't read anything about a defiler not getting defiler points.
So a wizard who has assumed the taint and entered defilerhood must still keep on assuming the taint to reduce his defiler points in future situations.
I may have misunderstood the article though.
It was a little short for me to get a detailed insight.
Originally posted by taotad
So a wizard who has assumed the taint and entered defilerhood must still keep on assuming the taint to reduce his defiler points in future situations.
You are correct, you keep accumulating defiler points each time you defile. So if the character you were playing wanted to always be a defiler, then of course they would keep assuming the taint, therefore reseting your defiler points to 0, therefore never having to worry about becoming a T'liz unless you did it on purpose or in a dire emergency.
If you didn't want to be a steady defiler, I could see you defiling only when you really need to and then once you get close to the 41+ mark, assume the taint and deal with the consequences of a decently high defiler score, or meditate in some verdant areas for quite some time, one of the two. The only major drawback to this is the losing of Wis and such, but hence the price you pay for defiling I guess.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
You are correct, you keep accumulating defiler points each time you defile. So if the character you were playing wanted to always be a defiler, then of course they would keep assuming the taint, therefore reseting your defiler points to 0, therefore never having to worry about becoming a T'liz unless you did it on purpose or in a dire emergency.
What struck me as odd however, was the fact that it didn't say anything about the amount of time it takes to assume the taint.
It's probably meant to be a free action, but it would be a balancing factor if it took more time. Say a standard or full-round action?
+
Originally posted by taotad
What struck me as odd however, was the fact that it didn't say anything about the amount of time it takes to assume the taint.
It's probably meant to be a free action, but it would be a balancing factor if it took more time. Say a standard or full-round action?
+
Good point. I would make it a standard action personally if they want to do it while in combat.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
If a rule system needs so much re-read and explanation to understand, it can't be good. IMHO.
I agree, but I don't think it is the case in this situation.
Regardless, to each his own, I'm going to use it in tandem with athas.org's.
Though I do not intend to break copyrights or anything, I would like to point out that this system is far more powerful than simple metamagic on the fly!
When someone ''assumes the taint'' (which, as its written, seems to have no adverse effect other than allowing druids to detect you and becoming vulnerable to a 5th level spell of theirs, and can be done instantly at any time, it seems) he can freely use any metamagic feat (even if he doesn't know them!) as long as he has twice as many levels as the defiler point costs for them (which is always equal to the additional spell slot requirements of the feat). This mean a 8th level defiler could Maximize ALL his spells, ALL the time, and without even having the feat, mind you!
Even worse, he can spend a standard action to regain a memorised spell, with no limits to the number of times per day you can do it, which basically means defilers who assume the taint have unlimited spells, as long as they spend one round regaining a spell between each casting. When not stressed, defilers simply regain all their spells!
I really don't think I missed anything, as I've read the article three times to make sure. BTW, the mul female defiler picture of the article is REALLY cool!
So, for those who have the issue, I worked out a system for that system that at least gives some disadvantage.
1- To use metamagics when defiling, you need to know the metamagic feat.
2- Assumed defiler points (defiler scores) grant the same disadvantages as defiler points. However, you can reduce your defiler scores in the same way as defiler points, but this requires twice as much time to do so. (this way, assumed defiler points (defiler scores) grant half as much penalties as defiler points, but take twice as long to get rid of. Also, you can no longer accumulate defiler scores in the hundreds without penalties (at 31, you were supposed to get overwhelming defiler auras... typical defiler would get that score in a day's work!)
3- Once you assume a defiler point, you permanently become a defiler. You cannot get rid of your last defiler point, and you always suffer from the penalties associated with it (-2 to cha and wis skill checks). Also, your spells always defile the terrain for half the radius of 1 defiler point. You do not gain defiler points when casting spells without boosting it with defiling energies, however. The only way to loose this defiler status is with a (atonement?) spell from a druid.
4- Preservers who defile can do so, but cannot assume the defiler points if they wish to remain preservers (which means they get more penalties more quickly when they defile)
5- The T'liz template is gained when a defiler dies with a defiler score of 41+ (not 41+ defiler points, and not while living), with some chance the process does not (succeed?) and the defiler simply dies. (10%?)
1 - To use metamagics when defiling, you need to know the metamagic feat.
2 - Defiler scores grant the same disadvantages as defiler points.
3 - You can reduce your defiler score in the same way as defiler points, but this requires a druid’s assistance and the rate is not doubled.
4 - Once you assume a defiler score, you permanently become a defiler. You cannot get rid of your last point of defiler score, and you always suffer from the penalties associated with it.
5 - Preservers who defile can do so, but cannot assume a defiler score if they wish to remain preservers
(and a DM's side note, after 41+ defiler score druids, preservers, etc will actively fight against and even hunt down the pc defiler)