I'd like to try something different. .
Granted all us wouldbe game designers make a big noise about how we are trying to do something different and, perhaps in this instance, one of us really are. In so far as I am asking all those reading this forum to jump up on their soapboxes and sound off about how important (or unimportant) you all feel psionics to be within a fantasy space setting.
So, given the question in the subject line, what are your opinions?
I have played a cleric/psionicist of Celestian in an old Spelljammer game back in the 2e days. There was a kit somewhere that gave the background for such a multi-class option. I also had a player who used psionics in a Forgotten Realms game of mine that included some Spelljammer elements.
Personally, I like the idea of using psionics with Spelljammer. They really would work well considering how much illithids factor into the setting. Also, Spelljammer is a setting where just about anything is possible. The idea of adding in new "powers" (i.e. new types of magic, psionics, etc.) fits right into this.
I know some people may disagree with my next point, but I think psionics help to give a bit of a "sci-fi" feel to Spelljammer. I know, I know. Spelljammer is supposed to be fantasy space. While this is true, I think having a touch of sci-fi helps to define the setting.
As each edition that has come out it seems that TSR/WotC is making an effort to make psionic balanced with the other core classes and 3.0 is no different. It still not balanced in my opinion but more so then past versions (including those found in the dragon magazine of the past 300+ issues).
Psionics always seemed to be more sci-fi then fantasy to me. If psion can heal and perform 'miracles' without faith in the Gods above (and below), why the need for Gods? "Psionic Mantra: Do not look to 'Powers' from without, but to the power within you". Most games I been part of that had psionics tend to be cleric-less and with no Gods/Religeons this tended to make the campaigns 'sterile'. This opinion is from games I participated in.
Imagine Krynn with psions abundant ... your friendly psion guild sheparding its flock of faithful that come to them for help. No expensive material components and no need for moral compass. Such a Krynn would be but a pale reflection of its glory, after all it is the gods that gave the campiagn its personality, and the characters its soul (or is it the other way around Gods/Soul and characters/personality).
In short, I would be more happy if with 3.0 (&3.5) WotC not even put out Psionic Handbook. With the Psionic Handbook the players look to me to include more psionics in my campaign as as players choose psions/psychic warriors... the less they feel the need for clerics... Most of my players rather I not have gods at all. They might like clerics that serve a 'Force', much like Druids do nature...
On that note
, Some of my players really got upset when I explained thier was a God of Druids. Some players not want the 'force' they gain power from having a personality.If psionics is to be balanced all the powers they have should avoid both Time and Healing at all cost (or any power that a commoner can benifit from). These powers strip Gods of thier importance in a campaign. In my campaign in the not too far past, the priesthoods of the pantheon took efforts to hunt down and kill psions world wide (sort of witch hunt of sorts). I did this to explain the lack of psionics when 2E first came out.
That said, yes Psionics can be completely sci-fi in flavor. But it doesn't have to. My favorite psion was deeply spiritual. Thoroughly evil, but deeply spiritual. I basically adapted the Astrologer kit for him and made him like a hindu mistic or yogi. He was a navigator that steered by the movements of the stars.
Psions can easily be more mystics than clerics. Concepts like Karma and Ki/Chi are just as valid with a psion or psywar as with monks.
I've wondered what it would be like if the crystal of a crystal sphere were to have some sort of psionic abilities. Perhaps those within the sphere recovered power points faster, or could gain a bonus power discovered if they leveled up while in the sphere. Or perhaps the save DC against psionic powers was higher. *shrugs*
I'd like to see the psion crystal/crystal sphere connection explored further. That would be quite fun.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I've always been a fan of psionics in D&D, and try to incorporate them in my campaigns where possible. The only notable exception is Dragonlance, which is a flavor thing for me.
Indeed. It's all a matter of personal taste.
That said, why do you feel it is a necessary "flavor" for your FRP gaming?
Do you use stock psionics or have them been modified to better fit into your own world setting?
How would you want to see psionics implements in a NON-SJ (yet very similar cosmologically) meta-setting?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I know some people may disagree with my next point, but I think psionics help to give a bit of a "sci-fi" feel to Spelljammer. I know, I know. Spelljammer is supposed to be fantasy space. While this is true, I think having a touch of sci-fi helps to define the setting.
Yes and no.
Certainly Spelljammer would loss a lot of color without the Illithids, but then again the same can be said of the GIff or Neogi. I'd bet not everyone used Illithids, or psionics, in their Spelljammer campaigns. Then again SJ had the potential to be the most versatile meta-setting ever implement.
Ah, what could of been. ;)
Originally posted by Danastes
As each edition that has come out it seems that TSR/WotC is making an effort to make psionic balanced with the other core classes and 3.0 is no different. It still not balanced in my opinion but more so then past versions (including those found in the dragon magazine of the past 300+ issues).
Going by what I've seen on some of the Forums I'd say this drive to "balance" character types has started to spin out of control. Every time I read someone's posting it seems, IMO, that what they interpret "balance" to mean is that their character type has to have the EXACT SAME LEVEL/DEGREE of powers or widgets when compared to similar characters of a type.
That's is not balancing a character, is it cloning.
To me balance meant consistancy, no crazy gonzo powers, and a reasonably justification of who/what/why the character was.
And that, for me, has been one of the big problems with most psionics systems I have seen. There is a misplaced attempt to "balance" the system by making it symetrical with the magic system of the system. Thus it becomes just a varient magic system. . . Or is it just me?
Originally posted by Danastes
Psionics always seemed to be more sci-fi then fantasy to me. If psion can heal and perform 'miracles' without faith in the Gods above (and below), why the need for Gods? "Psionic Mantra: Do not look to 'Powers' from without, but to the power within you". Most games I been part of that had psionics tend to be cleric-less and with no Gods/Religeons this tended to make the campaigns 'sterile'. This opinion is from games I participated in.
Exactly. That is a broken system due to bad implementation.
Balance DOES NOT mean that a psionicist has to be able to heal or have the equivalent powers of a mage. That is NOT balancing the character, it is creation a bizarro mirror image of another character type.
Let me repeat for wouldbe game designers readign this: balance does NOT mean that your character has to be SIMILAR to another character. Balance means that your character has to be INTERNALLY CONSISTENT to their archetype.
Psionics = Mind Powers NOT magic.
There is a INT score. There is a WIS score. Use them.
Originally posted by Danastes
If psionics is to be balanced all the powers they have should avoid both Time and Healing at all cost (or any power that a commoner can benifit from). These powers strip Gods of thier importance in a campaign. In my campaign in the not too far past, the priesthoods of the pantheon took efforts to hunt down and kill psions world wide (sort of witch hunt of sorts). I did this to explain the lack of psionics when 2E first came out.
I disagree. For psionics to WORK they have to be treated as a trait depending from a CORE ATTRIBUTE. Mind over Matter should be just that, a RESOLUTION ROLL against said core attribute. . . with conseqences for failire.
No lists of kewl powers, rather some form of basic guideline for how to handle attempted actions. At least that is the design philosophy I am aiming for, after finding my current system falling into the same trap.
EDIT: And having disciplines/shools (not lists of powers) that characters have to TRAIN in. But limited to the basics and, once learned, providing little more than a modifier to the resolution roll when attempting any action falling within that discipline.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
One of the things I do like about 3e psionics is the move to make them more fantasy-like. This is seen especially in their connection to crystal.
Not familiar with 3e psionics, but I do remember 1st ED psionics.
So, how are they linked to crystal? Is crystal used as a focii?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
I've wondered what it would be like if the crystal of a crystal sphere were to have some sort of psionic abilities. Perhaps those within the sphere recovered power points faster, or could gain a bonus power discovered if they leveled up while in the sphere. Or perhaps the save DC against psionic powers was higher. *shrugs*
I'd like to see the psion crystal/crystal sphere connection explored further. That would be quite fun.
Hmm.
No.
This could work for magic, since you could argue magic is something that is powered by manna or the aether, but Psionics is the power of the mind. How can you disconnect the internal powers of the mind? No, it would be a nice way to curtail system excesses, but as such the idea is just spackle on a deeper problem. Namely that Psionics is treated like a "powers" system.
In 1st ED Psionics had a great system that, IMO, would have been better served as the core of the magic rules. Points are. . . silly for mental powers. Replace the concept with a simple THAC0 like roll, with results being either sucessful or not, and failure linked to a fatigue system and. . . well AD&D would have been totally different!!! :D
Originally posted by primemover003
Psions can easily be more mystics than clerics. Concepts like Karma and Ki/Chi are just as valid with a psion or psywar as with monks.
Me, I like to think of them as genre specific tropes. Psionics can be thought of as such, but why are Psioncists often also thought of as a distinctive "character class" when their characters are typically portrayed more as poor souls with an (un)chosen life path? (Remeber the psionic characters in Babylon 5?)
Psionics, thus, would be better treated as a innate Trait, don't you think?
Granted for it to work the way 1st ED had the concept outlined you'd need a slightly more detailed method for generation a character background that had players ROLL for not just a base chance at psionics but have this chance determined by race et al.
Or something. . . I think my train of thought got derailed.
Thoughts?
Magic: Hybrid meta-stat combining elements of 1st ED psionics (we used the points) and the listed %ile chart for spells. . . learning I think. Slightly modified the chart and used it as a %ile chance to CAST. Spells had to be learned to cast on the fly, but POWERS (read: spell like effects) could be attempted anytime.
I think it was a investment of points into the %ile rolled, with the TN being to roll either over or under the base %ile score.
Ok, that's all I really remember. I was just a player and never really memorized the in-house rules. (Seemed easy enough at the time to just roll I guess I never cared for the details as to why.) Don't know if that makes sense for anyone else
but after all these years to have that bit of trivia dredged up. . . just had to share. There's a good meta-trait in there somewhere that can be used as a link for magic/psionics. That's apparently- now that I finally remember- what we did in the long long ago!
So anyone think this would be a remotely feasible system under 3e?
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
That said, why do you feel it is a necessary "flavor" for your FRP gaming?
I wouldn't say psionics are necessary for my games, but I do like to use them. I typically leave it open as an option for my players.
Do you use stock psionics or have them been modified to better fit into your own world setting?
Depends on the type of game I'm running. If I run Forgotten Realms, I'll use the Psi HB. I may modify them if the setting dictated it.
How would you want to see psionics implements in a NON-SJ (yet very similar cosmologically) meta-setting?
It would again depend on the setting.
Originally posted by Kester Pelagius
Not familiar with 3e psionics, but I do remember 1st ED psionics.
So, how are they linked to crystal? Is crystal used as a focii?
The psion class has psi-crystals. The idea is that the psi-crystal holds a portion of the psion's consciousness, or some such. Each one has nifty abilities and a personality type.
There's also things like crystal capacitors, and various other psionic items made from crystal.
One of the common complaints about psionics in 3e is that they come across as another type of magic. This is being worked on for the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
You might check the SRD. There's a section for the Psionics Handbook.
I've also used the 2e system, but never used 1e. I've heard some people say 1e is bad, but I don't remember how it works.
*shrugs*
Originally posted by leopardmessiah
IMO psions should have telepathy, clairvoyance and maybe telekinesis; psycoportation, psychometabolism and especially psychocreation (or whatever it's called, the one with all the summons and fireballs) are too "magical.
Hmmm... well, it's kind of off-topic, but I redefined the psionic disciplines for my d20 Steampunk rules. I don't agree with you entirely -- I think psychometabolism is quite appropriate for a yogi-type character, and the psionics rules wouldn't be complete without some kind of "firestarter" power -- but I trimmed some of the more showy or outlandish powers. (I thought I'd done away with the astral construct powers, but looking at it now I see that I didn't. I don't know why, though.) I also rearranged them into five schools:
Psychokinesis (literally "mind-movement"), comprising telekinetic and psychoportive powers, replaces Psychoportation and uses Dex as its key ability. The energy-manipulation powers of Psychokinesis have been relocated to Metacreativity, which is now named Psychoenergetics. Psychometabolism uses Con as its key ability. Telepathy and Clairsentience remain largely unchanged except for the culling of their power lists. To summarize, the five psychic disciplines recognized in Arcadia are Clairsentience (Wis), Psychoenergetics (Int), Psychokinesis (Dex), Psychometabolism (Con) and Telepathy (Cha).
You can find the rearranged list of powers in this file.
Wyvern
Magic: only affects physical world, includes healing, planar summoning, attack spells, etc. Still split onto Cleric, Mage, Sorceror.
Spiritualism: involves spirits, curses, calling on nature,etc. Combination of Druidic magic and Clairsentience.
Telepathy: Ability to read/influence the mind of others. Allows you to mentally attack people (mindflayer style), charm or dominate them, make your appearance change, etc. More diverse than normal telepathy, for example it includes bard-like emotion altering.
In other systems psychic powers are often very fun, because they are very different to magic (eg: in Gurps, magic allows many effects, but psychics are more powerful, and don't have a limit on their use)
Originally posted by leopardmessiah
That's also partly due to the fact that as psionics became a niche system, magic was altered to do the things psionics can do (the prime example being the charm/dominate abilities). The way to make psionics more interesting is to reduce magic.
True, there is a lot of overlap, and that's part of the problem. A mentalist mage (from 2e) pretty much is a simplified psion, without a lot of the fuss that goes with psionics. A mentalist sorcerer makes things very simple and fulfills the same role.