Originally posted by Cam Banks
You think there are more than 100,000 kender on Ansalon?
I expect dwarves to be higher number than they "should" because they've always secluded themselves and hardly entered battle as a race. As one of the oldest (stable) kingdoms they are also more populous than average.
Same would happen to elves if it wasn't for the WotL and now post-WoS. I think your value is too high for present time.
I'd also make your "Half-elves/half-ogres" value account for all "half-" races in the DLCS (and AoM).
I also have a problem with you including minotaurs in the "monster population"
Although I expect kender wizards, I also expect them to be all renegade, but 750 for the whole continent doesn't sound too far fetched (especially if one uses the 3600 miles wide scale
.So it is easy to see where the other 584,840 kender are if we take in all the other human, elven and ogre cities where the kender settle across Ansalon.
It's easy to see where the other kender are: in jails, of course!
:D
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I expect dwarves to be higher number than they "should" because they've always secluded themselves and hardly entered battle as a race. As one of the oldest (stable) kingdoms they are also more populous than average.
Same would happen to elves if it wasn't for the WotL and now post-WoS. I think your value is too high for present time.
Well, I agree with you, which is why I made dwarves the fourth highest population. I also took into account though the fact that the Chaos War pretty much leveled the largest dwarven society, Thorbardin. They are down to 1 city, Norbardin. The Zhakar were decimated by the mold plague and the Hill Dwarves suffered at least as much as humans.
For elves we can't cut the population too much, because ghetto elves are going to be the signficant minority (the second or third most populous people, enough of an influx to cause alarm) in human civilizations now. As well, we can't cut the population too much, because the forests of Southern Ergoth could probably support 1,000,000 elves easily. Plus, other than the Kinslayer War, the Cataclysm invasion of Qualinesti, and the War of Souls elves have escaped history relatively unscathed. The dragon purge and Chaos War seems to have barely touched them.
I also wanted the elves to be one of the three major races because they are one of the founder races. Thus I feel that humans, elves and ogres should have a higher percentage than the other races.
I'd also make your "Half-elves/half-ogres" value account for all "half-" races in the DLCS (and AoM).
That's a good idea, and cut it down to 1%. So 250,000 which includes half-elves, half-ogres, half-goblins, half-dwarves, half-kender etc.
I also have a problem with you including minotaurs in the "monster population"
I wouldn't make them more than 1% though. They have been pretty much confined to 2 small islands, and every single minotaur faces a fight to the death at least once in his life. That tends to keep the numbers down. Plus, if Silvanesti is a signficant expansion and flexing of their power, we have about 7,000 minotaurs in Silvanost, and perhaps about 50,000 minotaurs in Silvanesti in total. Given that Hotak was dreaming about a whole nation of soldiers, that's probably a significant portion of the population. So 250,000 minotaurs seems correct to me for the population of minotaurs on Ansalon. In Taladas, I imagine there are 1 or 2 million minotaurs.
Although I expect kender wizards, I also expect them to be all renegade, but 750 for the whole continent doesn't sound too far fetched (especially if one uses the 3600 miles wide scale
Magical segregation or genocide of magically gifted individuals due to race makes me queasy. They've got to be white robes for a reason right? I also don't see the need for it to be 3600 miles wide, unless you think I've kept too many people alive. However, 25 million seems to fit the city population numbers that Age of Mortals gave.
It's easy to see where the other kender are: in jails, of course!
:D
Exactly!
Originally posted by ferratus
Well, I agree with you, which is why I made dwarves the fourth highest population. I also took into account though the fact that the Chaos War pretty much leveled the largest dwarven society, Thorbardin. They are down to 1 city, Norbardin. The Zhakar were decimated by the mold plague and the Hill Dwarves suffered at least as much as humans.
Good point.
For elves we can't cut the population too much, because ghetto elves are going to be the signficant minority (the second or third most populous people, enough of an influx to cause alarm) in human civilizations now. As well, we can't cut the population too much, because the forests of Southern Ergoth could probably support 1,000,000 elves easily. Plus, other than the Kinslayer War, the Cataclysm invasion of Qualinesti, and the War of Souls elves have escaped history relatively unscathed. The dragon purge and Chaos War seems to have barely touched them.
I think you may be forgetting the Elven Shield which just before the WoS was already killing elves left and right. In fact, the shield itself shrunk because the elven population could no longer support the original shield area. If we calculate elven deaths by shield area reduction we're looking at around 15% casualties.
Also, with the lowest birthrate of all races (with the possible exception of the Irda) the population couldn't have regenerated itself. If there's one race that's been in every single major event where lives have been lost it's the elves. The description of the elven flight in the WoS trilogy also paints a picture of few elves (and far too few IMO). I'd probably flip your elf and dwarf numbers around.
I also wanted the elves to be one of the three major races because they are one of the founder races. Thus I feel that humans, elves and ogres should have a higher percentage than the other races.
A fair proposal. However, recent history does not lend itself much to support this IMO.
I wouldn't make them more than 1% though. They have been pretty much confined to 2 small islands, and every single minotaur faces a fight to the death at least once in his life. That tends to keep the numbers down. Plus, if Silvanesti is a signficant expansion and flexing of their power, we have about 7,000 minotaurs in Silvanost, and perhaps about 50,000 minotaurs in Silvanesti in total. Given that Hotak was dreaming about a whole nation of soldiers, that's probably a significant portion of the population. So 250,000 minotaurs seems correct to me for the population of minotaurs on Ansalon. In Taladas, I imagine there are 1 or 2 million minotaurs.
I wasn't clear enough. My problem was putting Minotaurs in the same bandwagon as "monsters". Just trying to breakaway from stereotypes and so on.
As an aside, the fact that Minotaurs are ECL +0 contradicts a low number of minotaurs. Goblins are week but they are plentiful. Minotaurs could only survive with low numbers if "one minotaur is worth three or four elves" equating to ECL +4.
If-I-Was-In-Charge(tm) I'd make them ECL +2 at least and support your minotaur population figures.
Magical segregation or genocide of magically gifted individuals due to race makes me queasy. They've got to be white robes for a reason right?
Segregation is a common behaviour in our world (thankfully, it's receding). I think it's only natural a fantasy setting would have it too. And not Genecide: I'm advocating there are 750 kender wizards, just not WoHS, therefor renegades (ignoring the level requirment to join the conclave for argument's sake).
And the existence of White Robes have little to do with it. All the WoHS protect magic. Kender are viewed as reckless and not-serious. It's only natural they wouldn't accept Kender as members. I have no problem with kender wizards existing otherwise.
I also don't see the need for it to be 3600 miles wide, unless you think I've kept too many people alive. However, 25 million seems to fit the city population numbers that Age of Mortals gave.
Heh, no, no. I'm just furthering my goal of world domination by brain-washing everyone to use the 3600 mile scale.
From what I can tell, your figures are fine for the regular 1300 mile wide Ansalon.Btw, you made me resume something I had put off for a while and regarding demographics I found this:
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
I'll be doing some more research into this.
As of just prior to the Chaos War, for example, I would only put the number of wizards in each Order of High Sorcery at around 100-150 at the most. I just don't think the ratio is as high on Krynn as it is in Faerun or Oerth. Post War of Souls, I think the numbers are smaller again, but there could be quite a push for more, depending on whether Dalamar and Jenna can sort out the mess that is the Orders.
As to why the much smaller population, consider that the Cataclysm was an event of such catastrophic levels that the continent shifted, cities were sent below the waves, mountains rose, and widespread quakes and tidal waves caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people in every region. Unlike the Black Death in Europe, the Cataclysm virtually eliminated subsistence levels in many regions, forced people to migrate inward towards cities, decimated rural areas, and eliminated trade routes. Communication between population centers ended for decades. Even by the time of the War of the Lance, Ansalon continued to be fractured and information about everything from the gods to dragons and the truth of the events of the reign of Istar were unknown to 90% of the population - myth, rumor and falsehoods dominated.
Add into this the fact that magical monsters and dangerous creatures roamed the wilderness, the elves and dwarves had very low birth rates, and most ogres are too stupid to be wizards, and you get a very different picture.
Mass invasion of armies of dragons, draconians, goblins and hobgoblins led by the Highlords, followed by numerous civil wars, border disputes, and crusades led by Solamnic and Nerakan forces... and an almost total fascist control of the continent by the Dark Knights immediately prior to a widespread assault by Chaos' forces and the seizure of Ansalon by the dragons in the first two decades of the Age of Mortals?
I don't think Ansalon gets longer than 5 years or so of rest from conflict and invasion for about 50+ years. And if you don't think plague and famine came about as a result of that conflict, you'd still be painting a rosy picture. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Personally, after bringing this subject up with Andre' today, we both came to the conclusion that 25 million's a little much. We'd settle for 10 million, and scale back a lot of the spellcaster types to a much smaller percentage proportionate to the population.
See, I would much rather reach a compromise, I'd say 17.5 million. I, personally, view that 25 million is too much, and 10 million is too little, so I think a happy medium is needed. That way, the number isn't quite as large as Europe in the middle ages, yet it's population isn't smaller than the Tokyo, Japan metro area. I don't know how to go about doing what Terry has done, so I won't try. Cam, I still think that your numbers for the WoHS are a little low, they would be right for the time just after the WoS, but after six months I am willing to bet that the majority of the former wizards would flock back to the organization(those still alive, of course) to fill the void that can't be filled by wild sorcery.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
[b]Personally, after bringing this subject up with Andre' today, we both came to the conclusion that 25 million's a little much. We'd settle for 10 million, and scale back a lot of the spellcaster types to a much smaller percentage proportionate to the population.
Portugal right now has 10 million people. It's smaller than California. Ansalon has healing magic. Not stably for the last 300 years but then mundane healing kicks in. Terry's source numbers (if correct, though I have no reason to doubt them) already provide ample range of error since he's calculating from 8th century Europe demographics figures (25m) instead of Ansalonian's equivalent of our 13-15th century Europe (60m) which more than accounts for all the disasters Ansalon has gone through. Your figure is just too low IMO. The more I read about it, the more I'm convinced of this.
I'm not talking about the number of wizards here (though this thread is mainly about them). I suggest the proportions on the DMG about spellcasters be changed to reflect Ansalon, instead of lowering the total number of people in the continent to reach the same number.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I'd probably flip your elf and dwarf numbers around.
I'm also operating under the assumption that elves had far more numbers to start with, being one of the few races to stretch back to the Age of Dreams. So before the recent tragedies I'd say there was about 4 million elves all told on Krynn, but they have been cut in half relatively quickly. However, I'm also fudging the numbers because I really want elves, humans and ogres to be the main races of Krynn. The greygem races are fun, but they are offshoots, sideshows if you will to the main three races.
I wasn't clear enough. My problem was putting Minotaurs in the same bandwagon as "monsters". Just trying to breakaway from stereotypes and so on.
I like minotaurs, but I'm not obsessed with them so I tend to lump them in with other monsters. I don't really see them as being all that different from centaurs for example. However, since they are +0 ECL player race, perhaps I should change my thinking. Of course, I don't really want to have 1% or 2% of minotaurs in every city either.
As an aside, the fact that Minotaurs are ECL +0 contradicts a low number of minotaurs. Goblins are week but they are plentiful. Minotaurs could only survive with low numbers if "one minotaur is worth three or four elves" equating to ECL +4.
Depends how ambitious we let the minotaurs get. I personally don't want the minotaurs to have a good shot at taking over the entire world. I am sick to death of world conquest plots in relation to dragonlance. If we pretty much have the minotaur's current ambitions begin and end with Silvanesti, 250,000 is more than large enough to support an occupation of that region.
Segregation is a common behaviour in our world (thankfully, it's receding). I think it's only natural a fantasy setting would have it too. And not Genecide: I'm advocating there are 750 kender wizards, just not WoHS, therefor renegades (ignoring the level requirment to join the conclave for argument's sake).
Yeah, but it is still a matter of condemning those 750 kender to death. After all, if you had told Raistlin he wasn't allowed to study magic, or Dalamar or even Antimodes what would have the answer been? We know that there can usually only be one answer when you have a calling for magic. You expect the kender to be any different and just take no for an answer?
And the existence of White Robes have little to do with it. All the WoHS protect magic. Kender are viewed as reckless and not-serious. It's only natural they wouldn't accept Kender as members. I have no problem with kender wizards existing otherwise.
I'd trust kender wizards to wield magic responsibly before I'd trust black robes. Besides, if kender don't go around randomly stabbing people with their daggers, why would I assume that they'd go around randomly fireballing houses?
Cool Link btw.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I'm not talking about the number of wizards here (though this thread is mainly about them). I suggest the proportions on the DMG about spellcasters be changed to reflect Ansalon, instead of lowering the total number of people in the continent to reach the same number.
I cannot possibly conceive of there being less wizards than .1% of the population. That already basically means 1 or 2 wizards for each small city and larger, with metropolises having as little as a half-dozen. It is a 1/10 of a bloody percent.
Besides, my god... 150? With one mage of each level, for each robe you've already got 60! That is just beyond ludicrously low. That's like saying a greater portion of the population would be necrophiliacs rather than wizards! (Yeah, I'm looking at you Chemosh Cultists.) Wow... 150. What about the mageware shops? Where is all the magical treasure coming from that you need to progress in D&D levels? What about House Magus in Silvanesti? My goodness.
Plus, we have to look at the other side of this whole thing too. How many sorcerers are there? I would say that sorcerers, being the everyman's magic, is about 1% of the population. I've already got them as 10x the number of sorcerers as wizards... do we really want to go much higher than that?
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Your figure is just too low IMO. The more I read about it, the more I'm convinced of this.
It might help to determine population density, and then apply that to regions of Ansalon based on the currently accepted continent size (i.e. not the SAGA dimensions). Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Krynn has a fairly usable population density map, which gives the impression large stretches of Ansalon are uninhabited by the major races (which is how I would imagine it being). She doesn't give any figures, though she was the first to describe Ansalon's population post-Cataclysm as significantly low and unable to properly maintain itself for years, thus the move to urban centers and the abandonment of rural areas.
It's also useless to determine each city's demographic makeup based on percentages of the overall population of Ansalon. Ansalon's separatist and xenophobic tendencies for the first 300 years of the Fourth Age meant that you didn't have (for example) 2% of any city's population be half-ogres, or any other kind of generic ratio. Tales of the Lance gives some basic indications of which areas have which races, and we can more or less rule out some races in regions except perhaps for the occasional adventurer.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It might help to determine population density, and then apply that to regions of Ansalon based on the currently accepted continent size (i.e. not the SAGA dimensions). Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Krynn has a fairly usable population density map, which gives the impression large stretches of Ansalon are uninhabited by the major races (which is how I would imagine it being).
And it also gives the impression that Kharolis, Saifhum, Kothas, Karthay, Misty Isle, Elian, just north of the Khalkist Mountains, a vertical band through the middle of Solamnia, most of Southern Ergoth, the Plains of Dust, and other parts are completly empty when we know for a fact that's not true. Most glaring is the medium density in Nordmaar's swamp where the rest of the country, which is basically farmland, is completely empty. The forest around Lemish is also completely deserted. Nature opposes voids. Races will move to new areas more often than not to improve their lot.
She doesn't give any figures, though she was the first to describe Ansalon's population post-Cataclysm as significantly low and unable to properly maintain itself for years, thus the move to urban centers and the abandonment of rural areas.
She speaks of "thousands upon thousands" killed, not millions. For comparison, the black plague killed a third of Europe's population. She also describes how in the following centuries the continent eventually rebuilt itself (xi, 1st page of Introduction, last two paragraphs). 400 years have passed since the Cataclysm, that's more than enough time. Considering that agriculture was the base of medieval society, Ansalonian civilization couldn't have survived if indeed they moved out of rural areas. There are no farms in cities. In its continuing growth any land around major towns and cities would already be spent of its nutrients (afterall, Ansalonian civilization is roughly 8.000 years old).
In fact, after the initial decade of the black plague (which really only completely disappeared four centuries after) people moved into rural areas because the lack of food drove peasant wages up. For the first time, the lower class was in charge of their own destiny. This of course, didn't last. A century after, the feudal society managed to get a grip of the situation.
And if people moved to towns and cities, what would they do? The overwhelming majority had been serfs all their lives. Their only skill plowing the land, tending to sheep, occasionally dabbling in shoemaking. They had to prospect of life in cities so might as well defend their homes where they could at least eat.
Even if Ansalonians would resort to poultry or livestock (which would be extremely unlikely, meat was something only the upper classes could afford) there wouldn't have been enough space in towns and city to hold enough cattle to feed everyone. Civilization would colapse into a few agrarian settlements in solamnia and droves of nomads elsewhere. But instead we see that trade has continued. In fact, new trade routes were quickly established (New Sea) which required multi-nation resources. We see that the people of Solamnia drove out the Knights of Solamnia which is something they wouldn't do if they were that defenseless. Istar fell, and I think millions died in what became the Blood Sea of Istar but very little happened elsewhere. The effects of the Cataclysm elsewhere (new sea, sundering of Ergoth) did not happen over night. There was enough time for people to get to safety. We have no records of terrible earthquakes and other calamities in the following years. There probably were some, but not worthy of being penned into History so they are neglegible in the grand scheme of things.
It's also useless to determine each city's demographic makeup based on percentages of the overall population of Ansalon. Ansalon's separatist and xenophobic tendencies for the first 300 years of the Fourth Age meant that you didn't have (for example) 2% of any city's population be half-ogres, or any other kind of generic ratio. Tales of the Lance gives some basic indications of which areas have which races, and we can more or less rule out some races in regions except perhaps for the occasional adventurer.
I think it's important to determine overall continent population, then move to country/kingdom and only then to city/town/village. I think markup figures for countries are helpful. One assumes settlements within that country would use similar proportions (exceptions exist of course).
Originally posted by ferratus
I like minotaurs, but I'm not obsessed with them so I tend to lump them in with other monsters. I don't really see them as being all that different from centaurs for example. However, since they are +0 ECL player race, perhaps I should change my thinking. Of course, I don't really want to have 1% or 2% of minotaurs in every city either.
Not every city of course. Mostly Palanthas, perhaps Ergoth's ports, Sanction (not at present time though).
Depends how ambitious we let the minotaurs get. I personally don't want the minotaurs to have a good shot at taking over the entire world. I am sick to death of world conquest plots in relation to dragonlance. If we pretty much have the minotaur's current ambitions begin and end with Silvanesti, 250,000 is more than large enough to support an occupation of that region.
Well, minotaur ambition has been settled before: they want to fulfill their destiny. What you can do is limit their chances of success.
Yeah, but it is still a matter of condemning those 750 kender to death. After all, if you had told Raistlin he wasn't allowed to study magic, or Dalamar or even Antimodes what would have the answer been? We know that there can usually only be one answer when you have a calling for magic. You expect the kender to be any different and just take no for an answer?
I think you're making an unfair comparison. Individual kender wouldn't feel discriminated because the "ban" was on the entire race. They're used to not being allowing into towns, the Conclave is just another one. And kender (renegades) would be more successful than other races at avoiding any conclave bounty hunters (or however they catch renegades).
I'd trust kender wizards to wield magic responsibly before I'd trust black robes.
You know, that's exactly what a Good aligned renegade would say at his trial at then hands of the Conclave. In reality you're driving a wedge at the heart of the conclave. Nuitari is an equal partner, kender are not.
Besides, if kender don't go around randomly stabbing people with their daggers, why would I assume that they'd go around randomly fireballing houses?
Hmm because they would try out every single magic item/spell they could get their grubby hands on? We have many examples from the novels. Tas broke a dragonorb. He stole a magic ring, he interfered with the casting of the Timeslip spell. Gunthar's aide hid the silver when tas visited Gunthar's castle. I'm sure wizards everywhere would hide their wands, potions, rings, what have you, heck, they'd even hide their familiars if they knew what's good for them. :D
Originally posted by ferratus
I cannot possibly conceive of there being less wizards than .1% of the population. That already basically means 1 or 2 wizards for each small city and larger, with metropolises having as little as a half-dozen. It is a 1/10 of a bloody percent.
I'd be more at ease if we reached a value for "spellcasters" (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, mystic and druid - bard, paladin and ranger would not be included here).
What about the mageware shops? Where is all the magical treasure coming from that you need to progress in D&D levels? What about House Magus in Silvanesti? My goodness.
Heh, I hope by mageware shops you just mean "potions, scrolls and wands". I'm really against magic item shops. Also, it's House Mystic. :P
Originally posted by Cam Banks
I would only put the number of wizards in each Order of High Sorcery at around 100-150 at the most.
That means there were more Thiewar wizards than WoHS before the chaos war.
Now, assuming the standard DMG breakdown of races
Well, that was the first and biggest mistake when trying to come up with these numbers.
You CANNOT apply the D&D standard to an individual world.
DL is NOT D&D standard.
Just that these numbers wouldn't apply directly to FR, or DS, or BR, or RL, or any other world ever created.
Those figures are just nuts. They should not be used for DL.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
It might help to determine population density, and then apply that to regions of Ansalon based on the currently accepted continent size (i.e. not the SAGA dimensions). Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Krynn has a fairly usable population density map, which gives the impression large stretches of Ansalon are uninhabited by the major races (which is how I would imagine it being).
Hmm... I have that Atlas, and the only places uninhabited by the major races are the Taman Basuk and the Plains of Dust, and that's not true anymore is it? Both are at least sparsely populated.
Karen also doesn't take into account the monstrous races, except for Blode and Mithas.
She doesn't give any figures, though she was the first to describe Ansalon's population post-Cataclysm as significantly low and unable to properly maintain itself for years, thus the move to urban centers and the abandonment of rural areas.
Yeah that doesn't make any sense. Cities are essentially parasitic, taking in raw materials in exchange for services. Bluntly put, a medieval agricultural techniques simply cannot support population centers that are largely urban. Heck, most cattle which weren't going to be bred next year were slaughtered in the fall (to conserve enough feed for the winter) and without chemical fertilizers, 1/3 of the land had to remain in fallow at any given time.
Besides, cities tend to depopulate during times of social and political upheaval, not grow. Simply put this is because you can usually feed your family on a scrap of land but are not guarenteed to find food or work.
It's also useless to determine each city's demographic makeup based on percentages of the overall population of Ansalon.
Of course it is. Of course, Ansalon seems to have a lot of monstrous cities and nations too, even if we don't count the vaults of the underdark.
This was all to be a rough estimate to get people thinking. It seems clear that we have to look at the hard statistics of the world to get the flavour text right, and develop the big picture before we work on the smaller peices.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Those figures are just nuts. They should not be used for DL.
Meh, it is just an estimate. However, it doesn't really help me if you don't join the debate and tell me how you would tweak the numbers and why.
Besides, I did tweak the numbers for DL. I'm assuming far less kender than halflings, 30% less humans, a significantly more monstrous presence and even 9% for ogres and elves, 1/10th of the wizards another setting would normally have, and half again the number of wizards for kender. A few other tweakings too.
I also rounded down all decimals, so the figures aren't exact. ;)
Originally posted by Richard Connery
I'd be more at ease if we reached a value for "spellcasters" (wizard, sorcerer, cleric, mystic and druid - bard, paladin and ranger would not be included here).
Hmm... well there is no hard and fast rule as to how many wizards, clerics, mystics and druids there are in a campaign world. To expand on what I told Craig, this was just a guestimate where I came up with numbers using a formula similar to the one you use for cities but using numbers that "felt" right when compared with other numbers. It was intended to be a guestimate on what numbers we have, rather than a hard fact.
A huge part of the assumption is that I'll be using the DMG to create villages and cities in greater depth for adventures. The class breakdown gets used a lot for adventures because it determines their supply of mentors, training, magical supplies (arcane scrolls and magical healing), or just whether or not the PC character is top dog for his class in this town. If we drop the worldwide numbers for wizards too low, then using these tables will be extremely disconcerting. 22,000 wizards (of which 6,000 are high enough to join the conclave) is MUCH lower than what most worlds have, but it is enough that small hamlets can have a 1st level wizard without raising an eyebrow and that 70-90 or so wizards in a metropolis of 40,000-50,000 people isn't a huge concentration of magical power.
See, so I started out with the assumption that out of 1000 people, 1 will be a wizard. Out of 4,000 people, one will be 2nd level wizard. Out of 8,000 people, one will be a 4th level wizard. You get the idea. The thing is while the % of the population of a particular class goes down in a large city, it is also where you find the highest level adventurers. In most worlds then you will find 1 wizard for every 500 in a large city, while in the hamlets you can find approximately 1 wizard for every 100 or 200 people. Thus, 1 wizard in a thousand is what I figured would be a good approximation, taking into account the increased scarcity of wizards in Krynn. See, I wanted enough wizards to get the flavour that it was a rare and distinguished class, but not clash with the tables in the DMG. I didn't have a good median or mean, I just rolled up James Buick's Town generator a bunch of times and did a quick average.
I see though that there is a fundamental mistake in my methodology. See, I was operating from 22,000 and reducing my numbers in half to get to the appropriate higher level wizards. However, given that only communities of Small Town sizes or bigger will produce a wizard, and we've already determined that 90% of the population is rural, then I should reduce my numbers accordingly.
To test this I turn to a random town generator. Now small towns gave me about .75 wizards of 4th level or higher, large towns gave me 1, small cities gave me 6, large cities gave me 9, and metropolis gave me 14 wizards.
Assuming that 3 of Krynn's cities will be a metropoli (Palanthas, Gwynneth and Mt. Nevermind), 12 will be large cities, 48 will be small cities, 192 will be large towns, and 768 will be small towns. That gives me an "urban population" of 2,528,100. That means the population of Ansalon is 25,281,000 people, if people say this estimate is "close enough".
I counted 11 Large Cities in between the two sourcebooks, and I'd add Thorbardin to that list as well. Caergoth is another possible contender, though it could be smaller. I'd say Zhea Harbour, Daltigoth, Kalaman, Kendermore, and a few other places were large cities before the Dragon purge. Thorbardin would have been a metropolis before Hybardin and many other parts of Thorbardin were destroyed.
After that I just made the smaller cities exponentially greater in number. Breaking down the cities by category we have 112,000 people living in the three metropoli (42 WoHS), 222,000 living in the large cities (108 WoHS), 408,000 (288 WoHS) living in the small cities, 672,000 (192) people living in the large towns, and 1,113,600 (384 WoHS) living in the small towns.
So 1,014 wizards in the WoHS if you want us to use the city tables in the DMG. That is however if 4th level is considered to be a member of the conclave. If the test always moves you up a level to 5th... then that means 384 wizards are chopped right off because no small town wizard will ever be higher than 5th level. So 5th level and higher:
36 - metropoli
108 - large cities
144 - small cities
192 - large towns
Total WoHS in the conclave: 480 WoHS. Of course, that means that there are hordes of wizards for those few select wizards. Gosh, I'll be. I was really wrong, because I think these numbers are much more solid. The only consolation is that I was the one to realize my mistake. ;) The rest of you, sharpen up your math skills or be quicker to offer help, because you missed a chance to take me down a peg!
Now let's see this also means that at any given time there are 536 students of magic that can take the test at this moment if they summon up the nerve. It also means that there are tens of thousands of mages who are minor dabblers throughout Ansalon, making the Wizards of High Sorcery an extremely elite group. The tens of thousands however will support an elven caste, mageware shops, and schools in tiny Solace.
Heh, I hope by mageware shops you just mean "potions, scrolls and wands". I'm really against magic item shops. Also, it's House Mystic. :P
Yeah, minor magical items and spell components.
Oh, and I know it used to be House Mystic, but House Magus is much easier now that Mystics are running around as their own character class. That way I don't have to go into a long and boring discussion about one of dragonlance's continuity glitches. My advice would be thus to use House Magus from now on to avoid confusion, since they are supposed to be a caste of arcane magic users.
Based on the cities, we have a world population of 25,281,000 people, with 2,528,100 living in urban centers. Of that population, 480 wizards are WoHS if we assume that wizards are 5th level when they pass the test. They are dwarfed by the ten or twenty thousand wizards who are dabblers of 4th level or lower. I also don't think I'll be upping the prerequisites for the WOHS anytime soon. ;)
536 4th level wizards at any given time on Krynn are powerful enough, but are summoning up the nerve to take the test, more than actually belong to the conclave. Which means that the test is a pretty nasty thing again. That means that half the apprentices will either turn chicken, be killed by the test, or be killed running away from the test. Of course, adventuring takes its toll on the ranks as well.
Originally posted by ferratus
Meh, it is just an estimate. However, it doesn't really help me if you don't join the debate and tell me how you would tweak the numbers and why.
It's not even an estimate, it's just bonkers.
Besides, I did tweak the numbers for DL.
I was just doing some research on the Black Plague. The estimates place Europe's population at 75 million ~1350 AD.
Five years later, after the Black Plague, 25 million were dead, leaving the population at 50 million.
Yet, Ansalon's population density is far less than that of Europe, all things considered.
I would say it's well under 10 million, possibly under 5 million.
The death and destruction in Ansalon is likely greater than that of Medeival Europe (save the Plague), and more consistent. Thus, the population will not recover it's numbers.
And nearly 500 wizards of High Sorcery? Gimme a break.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
It's not even an estimate, it's just bonkers.
*laughs* You're all talk. ;) Start from the cities you are given in DLCS and Age of Mortals and extrapolate from there. Start with some basic assumptions, make sure you include all the cities whose populations have already been decided, and then come yelping at me. Show me what you've done to work out the figures, and we'll see if your case is more solid than mine. You're opinion without anything behind it isn't really all that useful to me.
Yet, Ansalon's population density is far less than that of Europe, all things considered.
I would say it's well under 10 million, possibly under 5 million.
Yeah, but we have 120,000 people in 3 cities alone, so that kinda shoots that theory all to hell doesn't it?
And nearly 500 wizards of High Sorcery? Gimme a break.
*shrugs* All based on the DMG tables so I can randomly creates towns, villages, and cities. Besides, nearly 500 Wizards of High Sorcery is just enough to have a large conclave gathering of wizards in one room (about the size of a large wedding party), and make for enough people stopping by Solace to fill the Inn for a couple weeks... because they came to see the leaves.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
I was just doing some research on the Black Plague. The estimates place Europe's population at 75 million ~1350 AD.
Five years later, after the Black Plague, 25 million were dead, leaving the population at 50 million.
Yet, Ansalon's population density is far less than that of Europe, all things considered.
What "all things" have you considered?
I would say it's well under 10 million, possibly under 5 million.
This figure is so low, I'm going to hazard a guess you're only including the main races in there (humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, kender and ogres). Terry's initial number of 25 million, as I understand it (and agree with it) account for all humanoids with opposable thumbs living on Ansalon (that's covering sea elves, dracos, goblins, kyrie, what have you).
The death and destruction in Ansalon is likely greater than that of Medeival Europe (save the Plague), and more consistent. Thus, the population will not recover it's numbers.
I completly disagree with you there. As I mention above from Ansalonian History we know the Cataclysm was mostly a one-shot deal. The black plague lasted 5 years in full force and was only trully gone 4 centuries later. A plague is contagious, a flooding isn't. Four hundred years since the Cataclysm is more than enough to bring the numbers back up.
And nearly 500 wizards of High Sorcery? Gimme a break. [/b]
Raistlin Chronicles mention that school which had around 30 pupils. It mentions it's just one of many schools. If you agree upon 10 schools continent wide, that's 300 students a year. Let's consider 5 years to graduate (Raistlin had less years but he was brilliant). Let's also consider 50% drop out of school. That means, that during the lifespan of a human being there would be 2250 new potential WoHS. So let's bring the axe on these numbers. Let's say 75 % either don't pass the Test or don't apply. That leaves us with 562 new WoHS every 75 years or around 7 new WoHS each year.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
So you're hoping to have Ansalon possess certain statistics so that it means you can use the DMG to randomly generate cities and towns? Thank you for demonstrating how easy it is to alter the setting to suit your own game.
As I mentioned above, I also think Terry should be looking at the Ansalonian reality to get the proper breakdown of racial/class distribution I think you're being unfair to him.
You say (like I do) that he shouldn't use the DMG tables. Then what should he use? You're not doing much constructive criticism if you don't supply that information. :\
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh, and I know it used to be House Mystic, but House Magus is much easier now that Mystics are running around as their own character class. That way I don't have to go into a long and boring discussion about one of dragonlance's continuity glitches. My advice would be thus to use House Magus from now on to avoid confusion, since they are supposed to be a caste of arcane magic users.
You're much to quick to change the setting. Sure, it looks dumb but it's not a continuity glitch. And here's a thought. Perhaps mystics took their name from House Mystic itself. They probably weren't knowledgeable enough about what the House did and just liked the name.
Originally posted by ferratus
For those of you who don't want to read the long post with the huge amount of number crunching and math in it, here is the summary of it.
I read it but it's easier to reply here. Btw, the reason I said we should come up with a general spellcaster figure is because your original wizard figures felt too big for me. :-)
Based on the cities, we have a world population of 25,281,000 people, with 2,528,100 living in urban centers.
I find your numbers a nice ball-park figure. I'd be interested in discussing several examples of town/city population though. I'm currently collecting this info from pre-DLCS books and will report soon-ish.
However, I don't really see how I'm not "seeing" the ansalonian reality. 12 WoHS (2-3 of high level) is too much to find in a metropolis like Palanthas? 1 WoHS of 5th level or so is too much to find in cities the size of Flotsam? What the hell are you guys talking about?
The numbers just add up when you consider how many cities and towns there actually could be on dragonlance. Besides, 480 people is not a large bloody group of mages, especially when half can barely cast fireball. Sheesh!
I mean, if people want to help, help me figure out the spread of population among various settlement sizes. Assuming that there are 4 smaller settlements for each larger one is purely an instinctive guess on my part. There could be more or less for all I know.
You wanted a ballpark figure for the numbers of mages. So I gave you one. Ideally we wouldn't get so precise, doing things instead nation by nation, with each nation having its own urban/rural spread. Wizards are pretty much the only class we need an Ansalon-wide census for, because every single wizard in Ansalon of 5th level or higher has to join it or die.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
You're much to quick to change the setting. Sure, it looks dumb but it's not a continuity glitch. And here's a thought. Perhaps mystics took their name from House Mystic itself. They probably weren't knowledgeable enough about what the House did and just liked the name.
Yes, but having to explain why wizards in Silvanesti call themselves mystics is just something I'd rather avoid having to explain. I don't want to get into a huge backstory about how Iryl Songbrook explained to Goldmoon that spellcasters who weren't clerics were called "mystics" back in her homeland of Silvanesti. The way I see it, the house names largely exist to tell us what role the elves of a particular play in the society. Saying "House Magus" does that well, and avoids any unecessary confusion.
Originally posted by ferratus
However, I don't really see how I'm not "seeing" the ansalonian reality. 12 WoHS (2-3 of high level) is too much to find in a metropolis like Palanthas? 1 WoHS of 5th level or so is too much to find in cities the size of Flotsam? What the hell are you guys talking about?
Personally I'm talking of Palanthas having more than 12 WoHS and Solanthus having less. That's an example of the "ansalonian reality" that I'm talking about, dunno about Craig and Andre.
The numbers just add up when you consider how many cities and towns there actually could be on dragonlance. Besides, 480 people is not a large bloody group of mages, especially when half can barely cast fireball. Sheesh!
IMHO, it's not too much continent wide, however, the "ansalonian reality" also dictates many of them are now sorcerers. Same with clerics and mystics. That's why I'm more confortable with a general spellcaster figure which can then be moulded by class specifics.
I mean, if people want to help, help me figure out the spread of population among various settlement sizes. Assuming that there are 4 smaller settlements for each larger one is purely an instinctive guess on my part. There could be more or less for all I know.
Gut feeling there would be more. Exponentially more in fact.
You wanted a ballpark figure for the numbers of mages. So I gave you one. Ideally we wouldn't get so precise, doing things instead nation by nation, with each nation having its own urban/rural spread. Wizards are pretty much the only class we need an Ansalon-wide census for, because every single wizard in Ansalon of 5th level or higher has to join it or die.
I prefer to work from general to the particular. With a general spellcaster figure we can start dividing them into classes and then assign those classes to parts of the continent.For example, shallsea would have an incredibly high number of mystics while their "wizard ratio" would approach zero. The inverse would be true for wayreth forest. That's the ansalonian reality as I see it.
As comparison, greyhawk-ian (ugh) reality would be that pretty much everywhere there the average wizard presence for the continent would be equal to the average wizard presence in any given location. (with the possible exception of the Obsidian Citadel, heh)
Originally posted by ferratus
Yes, but having to explain why wizards in Silvanesti call themselves mystics is just something I'd rather avoid having to explain. I don't want to get into a huge backstory about how Iryl Songbrook explained to Goldmoon that spellcasters who weren't clerics were called "mystics" back in her homeland of Silvanesti. The way I see it, the house names largely exist to tell us what role the elves of a particular play in the society. Saying "House Magus" does that well, and avoids any unecessary confusion.
If you remember any bad sci-fi movie regarding Time Travel you probably know the visual effect of a time ripple. That's what we'd be doing by changing the name. Suddendly, you have to explain that when Sithas says House Mystic he's actually referring to House Magus.
And besides, in-character confusion about naming schemes only hightens the reality. The german army used to name their tank models backwards, while everyone else agrees alphabetical progression is A Good Thing (tm).
Originally posted by Richard Connery
This figure is so low, I'm going to hazard a guess you're only including the main races in there (humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, kender and ogres). Terry's initial number of 25 million, as I understand it (and agree with it) account for all humanoids with opposable thumbs living on Ansalon (that's covering sea elves, dracos, goblins, kyrie, what have you).
Now see, I can get behind that. Once you add in all the goblins, hobgoblins, kyrie, draconians, bugbears, etc etc, it would certainly swell the numbers and yet still give that impression that "civilized" mortals are fewer in number than the population of Europe. There *are* fewer humans on Ansalon, but then they're only one of several intelligent races.
And I think I'm going to have to perpetually disagree with you about the effects of the Cataclysm, Richard.
We don't have any experience in our history of an event equivalent to having a comet wipe out Rome and its surrounding area (or Paris, or any other large metropolitan imperial center). I like J. Gregory Keyes' novels set in alternate history 18th century Europe (with BEn Franklin and Blackbeard), and it vividly details the catastrophic events of planetary collision with a comet. Also, if you think the Cataclysm didn't carry with it plagues and famine to equal the Black Death, I think you'd also be underestimating it.
As for this population stuff, I like the Ansalonian reality you're suggesting. A spellcaster distribution index based on region is a nice idea - you're quite right about Schallsea and wizards, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Personally I'm talking of Palanthas having more than 12 WoHS and Solanthus having less. That's an example of the "ansalonian reality" that I'm talking about, dunno about Craig and Andre.
Well yeah, when you roll up a city, you roll up an average city. You tweak the numbers based on city history, culture and its institutions. For example, if you have a large school for training gladiators in your city, you are probably going to have a lot more fighters than the norm.
I am assuming however that the surplus and deficits of wizards will eventually balance out when considering the world-wide population of wizards. For every Shallsea there is a Gwynned, for every Mount Nevermind a Palanthas, for every Solanthus a Tarsis. You get the idea. These are all things I'd tweak on a case by case basis though when you detail a city, rather than worrying about coming up with 12 different DMG tables for rolling up population statistics that you need quick. It wouldn't really matter all that much if someone has 9 wizards of 1st to 13th level in Solanthus if they are just using it as a resupplying depot.
IMHO, it's not too much continent wide, however, the "ansalonian reality" also dictates many of them are now sorcerers. Same with clerics and mystics. That's why I'm more confortable with a general spellcaster figure which can then be moulded by class specifics.
Well we do have a seperate entry for creating sorcerers which means (if my logic towards wizards holds up) we have about the same number of sorcers as we do wizards. Now it seems to me that about half the spellcasters have chosen high sorcery and about half have chosen wild sorcery according to the DLCS. It seems pretty split down the middle.
For mystics, we don't use the Adept class anymore, so I'd just replace the name "adept" with "mystic" in the table, just as we would replace "aristocrat" with "noble".
Gut feeling there would be more. Exponentially more in fact.
I know there is a vast gulf between the number of even small towns and villages, hamlets and thorps (essentially large, medium and small manorial estates). As said previously, over 90% of the population would live in these smaller centers. Independant farms would be almost unheard of due to the need for protection and because medieval agriculture relies much more on cooperation. If I'm not mistaken it took about 6 men to work a oxen-pulled plow, and I don't even think that counted the people sowing the seed or covering the furrow.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Now see, I can get behind that. Once you add in all the goblins, hobgoblins, kyrie, draconians, bugbears, etc etc, it would certainly swell the numbers and yet still give that impression that "civilized" mortals are fewer in number than the population of Europe. There *are* fewer humans on Ansalon, but then they're only one of several intelligent races.
And I think I'm going to have to perpetually disagree with you about the effects of the Cataclysm, Richard.
Well, I started with the guestimate of 25,000,000 based on the sizes of the cities I saw. I remember being quite surprised there were so many, so large, in light of the massive disasters of the last half century. This was later confirmed with more solid numbers just last night. I actually gave 8th century Europe (the early middle ages) to kind of give an evocative sense of exactly what you are describing, which is of a scattered, largely non-urbanized feudal economy. There was 11 million humans, and more "sentients with thumbs" as Richard put it than elves, ogres, dwaves and minotaurs put together.
I think that is probably the huge difference here between me and everyone else. Everyone is starting from the cataclysm and working the numbers down as they go. I myself am working from the numbers we should reasonably have now and work our way up. If there is 80 million people at the time of the cataclysm it doesn't really matter to me. We had healing magic and wonderously vast empires and civilizations. Heck, even Icereach had an empire then.
Also, if you think the Cataclysm didn't carry with it plagues and famine to equal the Black Death, I think you'd also be underestimating it.
Ah, but you are forgetting, the smaller the population is, the more scattered and isolated it is... the less likely it is that the plague will spread. The less likely a plague is to spread, the fewer it kills.
Besides, the big killer would have been when everyone starved to death when the temperature dipped for a couple decades after the collision. The plagues came later when things were starting to look up and trade was opening again. I tell you, city people need to think more about how people eat when designing geographical material. ;)
As for this population stuff, I like the Ansalonian reality you're suggesting. A spellcaster distribution index based on region is a nice idea - you're quite right about Schallsea and wizards, etc.
I don't know. How would you implement such an index? Is it really necessary to make sure that PC's can't find one high level wizard in the country?
I would think that it would be better that, if it ever becomes necessary to detail the breakdown of the classes in depth (specifically if we cover the city with the amount of detail they do in "The Silver Marches") then we can worry about it then. For example, leave it up to the designer of Shallsea to quintuple the amount of mystics you can find there, and pare down the rest of the classes. DMG city tables are meant to be used when you need a city or town quickly, not for detailing the central cities of the campaign setting like Flotsam or Palanthas.
Originally posted by ferratus
DMG city tables are meant to be used when you need a city or town quickly, not for detailing the central cities of the campaign setting like Flotsam or Palanthas.
Right. This would be great for in-house use, really. The Atlas will, as has been implied, cover all of the population centers and regions on Ansalon for the Age of Mortals to a greater extent than the overview provided in the DLCS. I don't imagine you'd need random tables at all.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Right. This would be great for in-house use, really. The Atlas will, as has been implied, cover all of the population centers and regions on Ansalon for the Age of Mortals to a greater extent than the overview provided in the DLCS. I don't imagine you'd need random tables at all.
Of course you will, for the cities that you don't cover in the Atlas. Like Melgoth or Lancton or Gateway. The Atlas couldn't possibly cover even a small percentage of them in the fashion where you break down the population based on class.
Heck, other than the cities which are expanded upon and detailed, cities won't even be broken down based on race, a far easier thing to do.
Oh, and I'd prefer if the atlas covered nations rather than regions. ;) I want to have my pulse on the politics and culture of a specific nation-state.
Originally posted by ferratus
Of course you will, for the cities that you don't cover in the Atlas. Like Melgoth or Lancton or Gateway. The Atlas couldn't possibly cover even a small percentage of them in the fashion where you break down the population based on class.
There really aren't that many. It's much easier to do than, say, map out an Atlas of Europe.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Oh, and I'd prefer if the atlas covered nations rather than regions. ;) I want to have my pulse on the politics and culture of a specific nation-state.
You want to recognize nationalism in Dragonlance? Huh. Weird.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
There really aren't that many. It's much easier to do than, say, map out an Atlas of Europe.
Even if we did only the cities on the DLCS poster map, there would still be too many to cover in an Atlas. That's not even counting all the other cities and places that are surely not placed on the poster map. That's not even counting the villages and towns that won't be covered in the geographical entry of the atlas. That's the way it is with all geographical stuff. You can't possibly be comprehensive. What you need to do is cover the material that is essential to the basics. Quality over Quantity.
For example, I don't really miss the Palanthas city write up as much as I wish that the regional history entries in the DLCS had covered the story of the nation, rather than summarizing the novels and game products that happened to occur there. I need iron hard numbers more than I need roleplaying advice on how best to play a character from this region.
You want to recognize nationalism in Dragonlance? Huh. Weird.
Yep, unless every human being is speaking Solamnic now and has Solamnic government, culture and is loyal to the Solamnic crown. Otherwise, I need some info. I know the politics and culture of every other race on Krynn, but it is well past time that the humans get fleshed out as they control the vast majority of the map.
I know about the minotaurs, their games, and their emperor. I know about Teyr and its enlightened despotic governor. I know about the elven loyalty and disloyalty to their monarchical figure of the Speaker of the celestial object. I know about the Thanes of the Dwarves, who are ruled over by a High King.
Now I need that information for all the human cultures. We've got Abanisania and Imperial Ergoth... now we just need for everyone else.
Originally posted by ferratus
Now I need that information for all the human cultures. We've got Abanisania and Imperial Ergoth... now we just need for everyone else.
See, then you're not speaking about nations. Krynn has no nations, at least not in the proper use of the word. It has kingdoms, city-states, loose confederations, etc. What you're really asking for is information on political regions of the map, including cultural information and so forth. There are no defined borders, at least none which last long enough in any conflict.
Solamnia isn't a nation. Abanasinia isn't one. They're regions dominated by human interests with a mix of racial types and political power concentrated on major population centres.
Nationalism is an invention of the 18th century and onwards, and I don't know that it would make sense to use it for Dragonlance.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Nationalism is an invention of the 18th century and onwards, and I don't know that it would make sense to use it for Dragonlance.
Nationalism as a political philosophy is an invention of the 18th century. Before that people knew well enough whether to call themselves Franks, or Icelanders, or Saxons or Normans or what have you. It usually didn't make a difference as to who they called lord, though they probably preferred it when their lord was a local man who spoke their language and who looked after their interests.
If Solamnia isn't a nation, I'd like to know how people identify themselves within that state. Do they identify themselves by city? By province? By regional dialect?
But yes, you are correct. I wish to know the state when it comes to borders, population and power. I wish to know about the nation when I talk about cultural depth. The two will not always be synonomous.
Originally posted by ferratus
If Solamnia isn't a nation, I'd like to know how people identify themselves within that state. Do they identify themselves by city? By province? By regional dialect?
Probably all of the above.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Four hundred years since the Cataclysm is more than enough to bring the numbers back up.
So, we'll ignore the lack of healing post-Cataclysm, the rampant death and disease that followed in the wake of the Cataclysm, a few continent-wide wars, a 2nd Cataclysm, the outright destruction of atleast two major cities, etc, etc.
[/b]
Raistlin Chronicles mention that school which had around 30 pupils. It mentions it's just one of many schools.
[/b]
Which goes completely against everything ever stated about the Orders.
What is stated in The Soulforge about the "schools" makes it sound like they're commonplace and that kids training to be future members of the Conclave was a well accepted part of society.
It isn't, and it wasn't.
For example if we take Solamnia, we've got the likely chance that the highest level warrior who acts as the local constable is a bona fide knight of Solamnia. Clerics probably are far more common than monks, mystics, wizards or sorcerers. What wizards there are, will be probably be half-likely to belong to the Solamnic Auxillary.
So a dozen or so tables, with racial makeup, on what the various cities of a region look like. The regions I'm thinking of are:
Plains of Dust
Khur
Ogre Kingdoms (Blode, Kern)
Solamnia
Nereka
Imperial Ergoth
Abanisania
Desolation
Estwilde/Icereach
Dwarven mountain citadel
Dominion of Daltigoth
Throtyl, Holat, Sikket'Hul
Frontier Lands (Qualinesti, Nightlund)
Originally posted by ferratus
There was 11 million humans, and more "sentients with thumbs" as Richard put it than elves, ogres, dwaves and minotaurs put together.
So why isn't your base figure 11 million and including ALL races?
You're just wanting to take into account a base number of humans and then pile everything else on top, when nothing in the game material and novels supports such a figure as 25 million.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
So why isn't your base figure 11 million and including ALL races?
Simply put, because the cities are too large and too numerous in the DLCS and AoM for too small an overall population. The new game material is where I'm extrapolating the 25 million creature figure from.
Frankly, there is nothing in the game material to support an 11 million figure other than your own gut instinct and your insistence that you know better than I do. If you want me to beleive you, I want to see you work it out from sources.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
So, we'll ignore the lack of healing post-Cataclysm, the rampant death and disease that followed in the wake of the Cataclysm, a few continent-wide wars, a 2nd Cataclysm, the outright destruction of atleast two major cities, etc, etc.
Nowhere in dragonlance History is there such a grivious statement such as "eradicated one third of the continent population". The evidence simply isn't there. And since Astinus and his cronies keep such good track of History, the lack of any evidence really means the Cataclysm wasn't as severe as the black plague. What kind of casualties do you think happened since the first Cataclysm to the present because of the WotL, etc.? I figure a million continent-wide. There are no reported genocides (except dragons in the Dragon Purge and kender). The evidence of mass casualties on Ansalon simply isn't there.
Regarding lack of healing, that's the bread and butter of Earth. Ansalon would retain the "natural" healing practices. That's not a good argument. The continuing wars is also not a good argument since Europe has been in constant state of war since... ever. Everything Ansalon had can be negated by something similar Europe had. The disparity between your 5-10 million and Europe's 50-60 million is just mind-blowing. Do a mean average between the two if you still think Ansalon drew the short stick and you arrive at the 25 million figure.
Which goes completely against everything ever stated about the Orders.
What is stated in The Soulforge about the "schools" makes it sound like they're commonplace and that kids training to be future members of the Conclave was a well accepted part of society.
It isn't, and it wasn't.
Well, when you start dismissing sources which are (for better or worse) canon, then any figures you come up just can't be used. And nowhere do "Order material" state there are less than 10 schools. (and besides, my suggested figure of 10 schools continent-wide each with only 30 pupils is a lot? I'm already thumbing down because Raistlin Chronicles, like you say, does give the impression of many more).
Originally posted by silvanthalas
So why isn't your base figure 11 million and including ALL races?
You're just wanting to take into account a base number of humans and then pile everything else on top, when nothing in the game material and novels supports such a figure as 25 million.
There's nothing supporting less than 25 million, or any other value really, either. What you can do is take whatever figures you have (Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn provides some, and so does DLCS and AoM now). Apply common medieval knowledge, taking into account a major event such as the Cataclysm and several smaller ones. Just for comparison, at the time of the black plague England was 5 million ppl strong. England is about the size of Ergoth.
But again, 25 million for all intelligent races, not just humans. I think (hope) that's the misunderstanding we have.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Nationalism is an invention of the 18th century and onwards, and I don't know that it would make sense to use it for Dragonlance.
Well, actually, Portugal which has the oldest stable border is 861 years old. Ever since then, they've been tenacious with their national pride (especially towards Spain, which they used to pay tribute to). Nationalism is much older than the 18th century when the rulers weren't looking for the next state to invade. Of course, when kings fashion themselves into emperors, nationality does tend to fade away from their minds.
Having said that, I agree with you that Ansalon's geography is not defined by nations, but rather by regions. For instance, Kayolin belongs to Solamnia even though it's a mainly dwarven kingdom. Another example would be Khur which is composed of several tribes with their own autonomous lands only sometimes establishing alliances to face common enemies. Climate and geology plays a much bigger role in Ansalon than arbitrary borders set down by monarchs, as in Europe.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Nowhere in dragonlance History is there such a grivious statement such as "eradicated one third of the continent population". The evidence simply isn't there.
Then, by all means, reread the comment I made regarding the Cataclysm and it's effects for hundreds of years to come.
A whole NATION sank beneath the ocean, and you wouldn't think it had an effect comparable to the Black Death?
The 4th Age wasn't called the Age of Sunshine, you know.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Then, by all means, reread the comment I made regarding the Cataclysm and it's effects for hundreds of years to come.
What you say is not corroborated by dragonlance history. That's why I mentioned that there is no comment in Astinus' Chronicles that says "half the population is gone".
A whole NATION sank beneath the ocean, and you wouldn't think it had an effect comparable to the Black Death?
Like I mentioned, I think millions died in Istar and environs. That's still a far cry from a "third of the population". Perhaps it would help the discussion if you told us how many intelligent beings do you think Ansalon had just prior to the Cataclysm. 80, 60, 40 million?
The 4th Age wasn't called the Age of Sunshine, you know.
Depair for lack of hope. Lack of hope because of the "missing" gods. If it were called Age of Death, or Age of Earthquakes, it would be different.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Perhaps it would help the discussion if you told us how many intelligent beings do you think Ansalon had just prior to the Cataclysm. 80, 60, 40 million?
Ansalon has never been described as a place with a heavy population.
Indeed, it's just the opposite - like Middle-Earth, the population in general is spread very thin across the continent.
Depair for lack of hope. Lack of hope because of the "missing" gods. If it were called Age of Death, or Age of Earthquakes, it would be different.
How would it be any different? People still died of things other than despair and lack of hope in the 4th Age.
People died from hunger, from disease, from dragons, from wars.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Ansalon has never been described as a place with a heavy population.
Aside from Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn I haven't found any specific demographic figures in pre 3E products; for instance in a single Torbardin mine (of many) there were 7.000 dwarves working there. The DLCS now has figures for several cities big and small. Both indicate Earth like population. As comparison, in Dark Sun, Athas is specifically and repeatedly described as barren when it comes to settlements.
Indeed, it's just the opposite - like Middle-Earth, the population in general is spread very thin across the continent.
I ask again, can you tell us an aprox of the number of intelligent beings living in Ansalon pre-Cataclysm?
How would it be any different? People still died of things other than despair and lack of hope in the 4th Age.
People died from hunger, from disease, from dragons, from wars. [/b]
Except for Dragons, everything you described also happened in Europe. That's my point. We have no specific references when it comes before the Cataclysm. We do have descriptions of the effects of the Cataclysm. And we have population figures in DKK and the 3E products for 400 years later. From these, combined with what we know of Europe; and even then, liberally adjusting this knowledge way down from 50 to 25 million and applying it to all intelligent beings, not just humans.
First you give us a low figure for present time and atribute it to the Cataclysm. When there's no hard historical evidence to support that the Cataclysm killed "tens of millions" you say pre-cataclysm figures were also low. You can't have it both ways. Either you stick with the cataclysm killing millions upon millions and pre-cataclysm having lots of ppl or you go with the cataclysm killing only "thousands upon thousands" and saying pre-cataclysm demographics were already low.
Either way you don't have specific evidence from previous material to support this. Like I said, theres also no specific evidence to support the magic 25 million figure. All we can do is collect the clues from descriptions, calculate the figures 3E products give us and apply common sense taking into account Europe because that's the closest reference we have.
How can we work Craig? Give me something. A source, something tangible, anything.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Ansalon has never been described as a place with a heavy population.
Indeed, it's just the opposite - like Middle-Earth, the population in general is spread very thin across the continent.
Umm.....where exactly is it stated that populations are small on Ansalon?
Kender cities and towns always seemed to be almost bursting with Kender (who seem to like much of a sense of privacy as well as property). Human cities like Palanthus also seem to *not* be small or lacking in people. Elf cities and Dwarven cities are similar. I never got the impression Ansalon has or had a small number of people. I wouldn't have been able to put an exact figure on the number of course....and I don't understand how people can say they have a "gut" feeling it was 10 million or something like that. Seriously, how many people here actually have intuitions about such huge numbers of people over a such a large area of land? It is reasonable to go by European figures as a baseline for the total sentient population...maybe a little higher given that Mountain Dwarves live in places no human would.
As for the Cataclysm...well, I can believe that there were some plagues and diseases about....but at worst they would be comparable to the Black Death....which still leaves you with 40 million or so people. Maybe 30 million or 25 after starvations....a lot of that would have recovered by the time of the War of the Lance though....people, except for elves, breed rather fast. As for the "Age of Despair" bit....well, that has to do more with the gods not being involved in Krynn, hence life being more difficult, and traditional institutions being rejected (WoHS and the Knights of Solomnia)....a lot of hope was lost...hence despair.
Now, given the events after the second cataclysm...well, you might have brought down the 60 million figure once again...and kept it down because of the Overlords. I'd imagine though, that you'd have *at least* 30 million still, if not 40 or 50 million. The Kender population might have been cut down to 2/3 the original size though. Silvanesti too. Otherwise there were many depictions of massive slaughter....mostly terror and fear....again the largest damage was to the traditional institutions (the Knights were ravaged in the war and afterwards without the gods, and the WoHS basically disbanded). It will be repaired in time.
As for the population of Wizards...I think between 1 in every 1,000 to 10,000 people is about right...given stereotypes and prejudice. That means that with 50 million individuals on Ansalon, between 50,000 and 5,000 are wizards. Less are WoHS. This jives with the novels close enough for me. Very few would be high level wizards, and I never got the impression that every WoHS knew every other one...which means more than 300 Wizards overall. I tend to lean towards the higher number, since otherwise the gods of magic and the WoHS have been doing a very, very poor job at encouraging the study of magic. You have *three* gods for Paladine's sake....that should be enough to get a pretty sizeable number! Remember, most wouldn't be too strong.
Anyhow...if someone could explain to me how they get these "intuitions" involving millions upon millions of people....I'd appreciate it. I'd also appreciate reasons for the couple hundred members for each order for the WoHS. The latter I can understand if you are refering to shortly after the WoS when recruiting and training is still being done. Within 10-15 years after that though, I'd expect the numbers to shoot up dramatically.
-Drachasor
Edit: On Wizardly Population
you can't count small towns as an urban population. small towns should be counted as rural population, because they are mostly rural.
you would also be saying their is almost 23,000 villiagges at 500 people and around 46,000 hamlets. at around 250 people.
wouldn't you think that that is a lot of communities ?
Originally posted by lord kenwolf
Ferratus i dont see how you can say their is a population of 25 million. you have a pretty good concept of getting the 2.5 million number but you can't times that by 10 and get a total population.
you can't count small towns as an urban population. small towns should be counted as rural population, because they are mostly rural.
Not for a medieval economy. "Small Towns" are 2,000 people in the DMG, which means that there is a significant urban base outside of simply providing services to the surrounding farmers. To get enough farmers to support such a center, you would need so wide a radius that it would no longer be feasible to visit.
For example, where I live, the urban center has always been a place called "Yorkton" (Yorktown). You can look it up on a Saskatchewan map. Now, in the days before the automobile and mechanized farming, Yorkton was the urban center for the entirety of eastern Saskatchewan, whom people would visit maybe once every two or three years for supplies that the local market couldn't provide. Yorkton, back then, had a population of approximately 2,000 people.
you would also be saying their is almost 23,000 villiagges at 500 people and around 46,000 hamlets. at around 250 people.
wouldn't you think that that is a lot of communities ?
Nope, that seems about right to me. You would be surprised how many villages, towns and hamlets have vanished over the past century. Even now though, there are thousands of small towns for each city. Not very many villages and hamlets left though, because people would lose too many modern conveniences. Plus, larger centers can provide cheaper prices because they can move more product.
Plus, 80-90% rural is a standard figure for non-mechanized and non-industrialized populations. When thinking of "villages", "hamlets" and "thorps" think large, medium, and small manor estates to get a better picture of things.
Originally posted by ferratus
Not for a medieval economy. "Small Towns" are 2,000 people in the DMG,
And there you go, making the mistake of using the DMG again to come up with your figures.
The DMG is not Dragonlance. As soon as you realize that, you'll be better off.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
And there you go, making the mistake of using the DMG again to come up with your figures.
The DMG is not Dragonlance. As soon as you realize that, you'll be better off.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought that the DMG spoke for all D&D games, with setting-specific rules being presented where they apply (ie. gold vs. steel and relationship of the moons to wizardly magic in Dragonlance, presever/defiler magic in Dark Sun, etc.). I don't remember any passage of the DLCS dealing with numbers of population (or with population in general, actually) and what number what what type of settlement in Ansalon. Forgive me if there is such a passage in AoM; I am Canadian, and have not been able to so much as find a copy.
I think that Ansalon's current pop is roughly about what Europe's was at the equivalent time period. Maybe less- the Silvanesti elves and Thorbardin dwarves took a few big hits not too long ago. Maybe more- I count all intelligent species as people, and many races are prolific breeders- humans, goblins, kender.
History shows that the trend is in the opposite way. Social/Economic/Climactic disasters that shatter civilizations tend to make people return to rural settings, so they can scratch out a living from the land.
To take a historical precedent:
Rome, at the height of the empire (c. 150 AD)
Pop: around 1,000,000
Rome, after the fall of the Western empire (c. 500 AD)
Pop: around 17,000
I'd imagine it would have been much the same for Ansalon.
To claim that people would have gone TO the major urban centres is nonsensical, especially since, with no divine magic and very little arcane magic, Ansalon was effectively medieval/Dark Ages Earth for around three centuries.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
And there you go, making the mistake of using the DMG again to come up with your figures.
The DMG is not Dragonlance. As soon as you realize that, you'll be better off.
Yeah, so I'm not allowed to call places with 2,000 people small towns? The name itself has no effect on the end numbers of the calculation. There are still going to be places with 2,000 people in them such as Port Balifor. Which, if you read your AoM, is called a "small town".
It is still an urban center, and would still support a 4th level mage. Unless you don't think there should be One wizard capable of being on the verge of taking the test in Port Balifor is a ridiculous thing, or One wizard capable of having just passed the test in Flotsam is absurd.
Nope, it isn't. So therefore the DMG population figures for within the town work fairly well for your standard Krynnish city. Will some cities have more (due to an increased population of elves or a greater reverence for magic?) yes. Will some have less (with Solamnic culture or a fear of or distrust for magic? Yes.
So in the end, what is your bloody point? How am I not taking the "Ansalonian reality" into account? You keep saying I'm wrong, but you won't give me any bloody numbers to prove I'm wrong. Do you have any idea how frustrating that is?
If I'm not supposed to use the DMG as a guideline, how many wizards are there in a place the size of Port Balifor?
Originally posted by Wizardman
I don't remember any passage of the DLCS dealing with numbers of population (or with population in general, actually) and what number what what type of settlement in Ansalon. Forgive me if there is such a passage in AoM; I am Canadian, and have not been able to so much as find a copy.
DLCS and AoM uses the standard DMG terms to describe cities. Gwynned is a metropolis, Flotsam is a Large Town, Port Balifor is a small town, etc.
I think that Ansalon's current pop is roughly about what Europe's was at the equivalent time period. Maybe less- the Silvanesti elves and Thorbardin dwarves took a few big hits not too long ago. Maybe more- I count all intelligent species as people, and many races are prolific breeders- humans, goblins, kender.
That'd be about 40-60 million. I'm saying about half that based on the size of the cities we are given. It is a rough guess that has no application to anything except the membership of the WoHS. I think 490 is a reasonable number for an organization of the WoHS' presence on Krynn, which I back up with some guestimating calculations based on what I know about the setting. Frankly, I think it is going to be lower than the official line's number of conclave mages. After all, it will all depend on the what number "feels right" just like the populations of the various cities.
Other than needing to know the overall population of the Wizard's conclave, it isn't really necessary to know the population of Ansalon. There is no global economy. What is much more relevant is the populations of the various nations. From that we can determine how urbanized a nation is, how militarily powerful a nation is, and the economic strength of a nation. That will have a much greater bearing on the planning of adventures. Then if we need to, we can simply add up the world's population nation by nation for a more accurate picture. However, I don't have either the population numbers, nor a sense of where the borders are, so I can't really start from there. The city population numbers are the most solid place to start from.
I suppose knowing the world population would be useful for getting a rough estimate on the numbers of KoS and KoN, but I'm still campaigning hard for the "Knights of Solamnia in Solamnia" and "Knights of Nereka in Nereka" to make room for more cultures and organizations in Krynn.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Having said that, I agree with you that Ansalon's geography is not defined by nations, but rather by regions. For instance, Kayolin belongs to Solamnia even though it's a mainly dwarven kingdom. Another example would be Khur which is composed of several tribes with their own autonomous lands only sometimes establishing alliances to face common enemies. Climate and geology plays a much bigger role in Ansalon than arbitrary borders set down by monarchs, as in Europe.
Yeah, but it still matters based on the division of power. If someone sets up a border that is defended by a naturally defense (such as the Lastgaard mountains dividing the elven lands in Ergoth from the Ogres lands of the Dominion of Daltigoth) it is still a border.
I would also say that we need to know how power is divided by state. For example, it is all very well and good to say that Kayolin is part of the Solamnic "region" but what does that mean culturally and politically? Do the Kaoylin Dwarves rule themselves under a High Thane or adopt a Solamnic political system? Do the Kayolin dwarves swear fealty to the Head of the Solamnic Knighthood or an absent Solamnic King? Are they an independent nation or a part of a Solamnic confederacy? (Federated states, like Canada).
Now Micheal Falconer has made the point that it tends to be less a matter of nation states than about who controls which territory at any given time. That's fine, but as soon as someone exercizes power over a given territory, there is a territorial boundary. It may be disputed, but there is a border nonetheless. Power is excersized nonetheless.
245 - 5th level
122 - 6th level
61 - 7th level
30 - 8th level
15 - 9th level
8 - 10th level
4 - 11th level
2 - 12th level
1 - 13th level
1 - 14th level
1 - 15th level
Between Dalamar, Palin and Jenna, and in fact, the idea that you have to have three Heads of the Orders, plus a number of people who can take over if and when they die... it would seem to be too low.
There. Some counter-argument using numbers. Have fun.
Originally posted by pddisc
Sorry, was 490 the number of WoHS, or the number of wizards in Ansalon? How do the levels break down? If just halving, then it'd go:
Yep, that's about the size of it. The 490 wizards are the WoHS members only. There are thousands of wizards who are dabblers in magic, and there are more wizards eligible to take the test (but haven't taken it yet) than belong to the conclave. This means some are avoiding the test, have decided not to advance their studies because of the test, and many are just trying to find the courage to take the test. I like this, because it makes the test seem like an appropriately scary event, something that is in danger of being lost in this age of adventures with challenge ratings (CR).
I imagine the flavour of the dabblers is one family out of every village possessing a peice of parchment or two with a minor spell on it, kept in a family trunk somewhere, the remains of a spellbook once used by a Magus ancestor, now cut up into innumerable small peices. The father teaches his son a spell or two as a means to make life a little easier or deal with the occassional goblin.
Between Dalamar, Palin and Jenna, and in fact, the idea that you have to have three Heads of the Orders, plus a number of people who can take over if and when they die... it would seem to be too low.
*chuckles* That's just an opinion. There are many others that would say that the number is to high.
I'm sorry guys, you have to read through the entire thread and do the math that I've done (or some other mathematical formula) if you want to take you seriously. Your opinion alone isn't more important than mine.
We've seen that there are high level casters. Palin and Dalamar are both 17th level spellcasters. Raistlin was definately epic, although it's useless to give him stats. Par-Salian, LaDonna, Justarius, all the other heads of the orders - they had to be a higher level than one each being 13th, 14th, and 15th level, if Dalamar by comparison is 17th level. Even so, there was always someone competent to step into their place when they died.
It is because of my breakdown, by halving the number, that I reach this problematic conclusion. If that is wrong, then tell me how you break it down. It seems sensible to me, and since we don't have medieval numbers to draw on for mages, and it is only your guess, if I remember, that says less than 1% of all peoples are mages.
If you tripled the number of WoHS, that would allow for Dalamar. Palin, I suppose, doesn't count anymore, since he's given up magic. Dalamar would presumably be the most powerful wizard in Ansalon, and Jenna and whoever is the 15th level caster (if and when they find him/her) would be the next lowest.
Although you have to support the population figures given in the source books, by the same token, you have to support the level figures given in the same source book. Dalamar is 17th level, and you say there are no spellcasters that high a level. Your figures are wrong, or their stats are.
I have no problem with 1,470 WoHS - considering a population of 25 million, there would be enough to be more than one in a town or city. God knows how many just hole up in a Tower when there is one available - there could be as many as 500 at a time, depending on the size of the Tower, and we know that the size inside doesn't have to be related to the size outside.
I have read most of the stuff on this thread, and disagree with silvanthalas's ideas of only 10 million people. Equally, I am not sure that only 25 million is enough, but I am working with that figure. If you feel there should be a smaller percentage than the one I suggest (ie three times yours), then to support high level spellcasters you'd have to have more people. I get the feeling that you're going to disagree with me, but please don't just dismiss me out of hand again.
Originally posted by pddisc
It would seem too low, not through opinion, but because such a low number doesn't support high level casters, of which there are. Maybe higher levels aren't so uncommon anymore on Krynn.
There is a significant gulf between high-level and low-level wizards on Krynn, due to the unfortunate demise of many of the mid-level characters over the past 50 years. One should not necessarily assume that thousands of dabblers and low-level wizards are necessary to support a handful of higher-level wizards.
Of course, there is a heck of a lot of assumption being made in any case. Folks should probably establish a comfort zone for themselves in regards to how many wizards and other special characters exist and use that where necessary. Any adventure, published product or sourcebook is probably going to assume there are enough of each character class to support an ongoing campaign centred around a party of player characters. There'll always be people higher level than you, and always be people lower level than you, and there will always conveniently be just as many clerics of Chemosh as are required for the heroes to be challenged sufficiently in the "heroes against Chemosh" story arc of your campaign.
And so forth.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by pddisc
It would seem too low, not through opinion, but because such a low number doesn't support high level casters, of which there are. Maybe higher levels aren't so uncommon anymore on Krynn.
Ah, but it only goes up to 16th level maximum as randomly generated characters. No matter how many wizards you have, this simple fact won't be changed.
Above 16th level all wizards are major NPC's in the campaign setting. Certainly it is a good idea to limit them, but they are designed as a case by case basis.
Personally, I think there are three wizards above 16th level at any given time, to reflect the heads of each order. We know that Dalamar, for example, is a 17th level wizard (AoM), and he is the highest level wizard currently around.
The rest of the examples you give, are dead.
It is because of my breakdown, by halving the number, that I reach this problematic conclusion. If that is wrong, then tell me how you break it down. It seems sensible to me, and since we don't have medieval numbers to draw on for mages, and it is only your guess, if I remember, that says less than 1% of all peoples are mages.
Old guess from the first post. New math I break it down by city.
36 - metropoli
108 - large cities
144 - small cities
192 - large towns
So there are 36 wizards in the metropolis' with 12 wizards in each city (given that there are three cities on Ansalon of metropolis size).
So given that the highest wizard in a metropolis is 16th level you have 3 16th level wizards. The successors you need to fill in for Dalamar or another head of the Orders. (17th level and above)
I get the feeling that you're going to disagree with me, but please don't just dismiss me out of hand again.
Yes, but you have to read the entire thread.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
There'll always be people higher level than you, and always be people lower level than you, and there will always conveniently be just as many clerics of Chemosh as are required for the heroes to be challenged sufficiently in the "heroes against Chemosh" story arc of your campaign.
Yes, to quote from the DMG:
In addition to the residents you generate using the system described above, you might decide that a community has some sort of special resident, such as a single, out of place 15th level sorcerer who lives just outside a thorp of 50 people, or the secret assassins guild brimming with high level characters hidden in a small town. Residents such as these that you create "on the fly" do not count against the highest-level characters who are actually part of the community.
This has always been just a guestimate to get a general feel for the world and the number of wizards therein. Perhaps there is an entire group of renegade liches of 16th-25th level hidden away in Port Balifor. We just don't know. ;)
The DMG tables just provide a daily, average picture for a city of that size. The guestimate of wizards was meant to do the same thing for the entire continent.
There is a significant gulf between high-level and low-level wizards on Krynn, due to the unfortunate demise of many of the mid-level characters over the past 50 years. One should not necessarily assume that thousands of dabblers and low-level wizards are necessary to support a handful of higher-level wizards.
... and...
The rest of the examples you give, are dead.
This was because to get the random break down by halving, we have to assume that there was no particular problem with this. I was using figures from before they all died, because they were alive when the halving table was mostly valid. I can't give you names for the current heads of the orders, because there are none.
Originally posted by ferratus
Do you have any idea how frustrating that is?
Only as frustrating as you make it out to be. And, in the case of DL, you seem to make things frustrating if it's not spelled out for you.
You'll (perhaps) excuse me if I haven't thrown out, what I feel, are more legitimate numbers for you by now. I've just finished moving to a new apartment. And, after having to deal with my isp screwing things up in every possible way (up to and including deleting all my email accounts), I have far more frustrating matters to attend to than what a book like the DMG says.
And yes, I know what the purpose of the DMG guide is, which is one of the reasons I hate the thing and all the other core books. They try to force one to assume that all worlds are the same; far from it, each world should be deciding things for themselves.
Setting over system.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
And yes, I know what the purpose of the DMG guide is, which is one of the reasons I hate the thing and all the other core books. They try to force one to assume that all worlds are the same; far from it, each world should be deciding things for themselves.
Setting over system.
So then a city the size of Flotsam shouldn't have one 5th level wizard then? A city the size of Palanthas shouldn't have one 16th level mage? That's what the DMG is contributing to the discussion.
The 25,000,000 population figure for all sentient races on Krynn is me, drawn from the city population figures from the DLCS and Age of Mortals campaign books. The main center of the disagreement is that you want an absurdly low population for Krynn, yet not take into account how large and how numerous Krynn's cities are. How can there be 10 million people when there is already 2,500,000 people accounted for with the urban population alone?
Originally posted by ferratus
So then a city the size of Flotsam shouldn't have one 5th level wizard then? A city the size of Palanthas shouldn't have one 16th level mage? That's what the DMG is contributing to the discussion.
The 25,000,000 population figure for all sentient races on Krynn is me, drawn from the city population figures from the DLCS and Age of Mortals campaign books. The main center of the disagreement is that you want an absurdly low population for Krynn, yet not take into account how large and how numerous Krynn's cities are. How can there be 10 million people when there is already 2,500,000 people accounted for with the urban population alone?
Indeed, as I tried to say in my above post....and forgive me if I was mistaken.....just what makes people think Ansalon has a particularly low population? In nothing I know of gave the impression that 80% of the population was killed off during the Chaos War-War of Souls (net loss, that is). Which is what a population of 12 million is (assuming 60 million as what the technology and land would support). I don't believe I read any examples of passages that indicate a sparse population on Ansalon....yet many people seem to believe there *must* be one. Why? I would like to understand. Afterall, a small overall population isn't necessary for a low number of wizards compared to a similarly populated area of Toril (the Forgotten Realms), since Ansalon has had more prejudice against magic. Anyhow, I must admit I also don't understand why some people seem to think there are only 500 or so people in the WoHS...this also seems incrediably low. If the DMG says 1% of the population are wizards, then Krynn would perhaps have .1%...which is 60,000 wizards overall, and an exceedingly small number given the *total* population. It isn't like the Wizards all meet in one place at the same time.
Anyhow, my question on this matter still stands......why do some people think Krynn has such a tiny population? The technology doesn't indicate it, the novels don't indicate it, the source books don't indicate it. Why?
-Drachasor
Originally posted by Drachasor
Anyhow, my question on this matter still stands......why do some people think Krynn has such a tiny population? The technology doesn't indicate it, the novels don't indicate it, the source books don't indicate it. Why?
I'd honestly like to know why constant death, wars, and destruction DON'T merit a tiny population.
Let's take Australia as a model. Australia's population is approx. 20 million, and the land area is what some would say Ansalon roughly represents.
Australia hasn't had multiple continent-wide wars for the last 100 years, two major cataclysms in the last 400 years, medieval technology and medicine, and giant dragons destroying anything else untouched for the last 40 years.
Yet, the population of Australia remains small anyways.
To make more comparisons. The population of Iowa is approx. 5 million. Like 250,000 of that is in Des Moines, another 100,000 in Davenport. I lived in towns of 3,000 and 24,000.
But, I can name more cities of the top of my head in Iowa that are larger than 10,000 people I bet than there are in the whole of Ansalon, human, elf, or otherwise.
So, even in Iowa, alot of the population is in towns, rather than completely rural areas. I think the same applies to Ansalon on a much larger scale.
I just don't think that the population of 5th Age Ansalon is very large. Period. There have been too many outside factors that would have prevented the population from reaching, or in the extreme case, by much exceeding the pre-1st Cataclysm population of Krynn.
And I could give numbers for the rest of the night, and I'm sure some of you will just dismiss my comments out of hand, so I won't bother.
I'd honestly like to know why constant death, wars, and destruction DON'T merit a tiny population.
Let's take Australia as a model. Australia's population is approx. 20 million, and the land area is what some would say Ansalon roughly represents.
Australia hasn't had multiple continent-wide wars for the last 100 years, two major cataclysms in the last 400 years, medieval technology and medicine, and giant dragons destroying anything else untouched for the last 40 years.
Yet, the population of Australia remains small anyways.
Australia is a very poor example.
Firstly, it has a low proportion of arable land, and is the driest continent outside of Antarctica. It has almost no native crops or animals suitable for cultivation.
Pre 1788, the maximum population of Australia was around. 100,000. The inhabitants at this stage were at a pre-agrarian, stone age culture, which cannot be said about the Ansalonian nations of Solamnia, Ergoth etc..
Australia's population went from around 5-6 million at the start of the twentieth century to 19 million+ at the beginning of the 21st.
In fact, Australia is evidence of rapid population GAIN, not decline.
Ansalon has had post-stone age societies for thousands of years, has had magical aid (both divine and clerical) for most of its history, and the continent has large swathes of temperate land. (particuarly in Solamnia).
Europe is a far better analogy to Ansalon than Australia or even North America, as it has been continually inhabitated by advanced civilizations for thousands of years.
The Americas had the Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs and Incans, and those groupings of people always supported a much higher population than the more primitive inhabitants.
To make more comparisons. The population of Iowa is approx. 5 million. Like 250,000 of that is in Des Moines, another 100,000 in Davenport. I lived in towns of 3,000 and 24,000.
But, I can name more cities of the top of my head in Iowa that are larger than 10,000 people I bet than there are in the whole of Ansalon, human, elf, or otherwise.
So, even in Iowa, alot of the population is in towns, rather than completely rural areas. I think the same applies to Ansalon on a much larger scale.
You are talking about modern society, where a much more efficient method of farming and food production has allowed for a smaller proportion of people having to farm to support society, as a result, more people move to urban areas to undertake other pursuits.
Your analogy would only work if Ansalon was full of modern societies, or had a large reliance of magic for agricultural production. (Which, as the scarcity of magic shows, cannot be true)
To reiterate: In medieval-level socities, cities of 100,000+ are very large, and need around 500,000 + people in the surrounding areas to provide agricultural supplies. That, is a simple historical fact. Otherwise you are suspending disbelief to the point of silliness.
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
[i]
To reiterate: In medieval-level socities, cities of 100,000+ are very large, and need around 500,000 + people in the surrounding areas to provide agricultural supplies. That, is a simple historical fact. Otherwise you are suspending disbelief to the point of silliness.
Yeah that's the crux of the entire disagreement to those that think 25,000,000 is an appropriate ballpark figure, and those that don't. Those that don't, don't bother to take into account the large populations of the cities we already have.
Now, since we have such a large urban population we have to assume two things:
1) The massive upheavals of the chaos war and dragon purge were hyperbolically described in the novels. That means aside from Flotsam and Port Balifor (the only two cities I see as being significantly larger in the WotL book) this is probably the way it is. After all, I don't think there was much foresight put into the size of the cities when they were written down in the current books.
2) Otherwise, if the designers are taking into account the massive M.D.K. rate of the last half century, then the population at the time of the WoTL is around 60 million people.
I know that the disasters were huge. I was surprised at how many large cities there were. However if we are trying to figure out a good guess for the size of Ansalon's population, we have to take the numbers of these cities into account. If we had worked out the population nation by nation, perhaps we wouldn't have assigned so many cities with the large populations that they have. However, what is done, is done.
Besides, is 25 million that terrible a number for all the sentient races of Krynn? Not just the PC races, but the goblins, the kuo-toa, the draconians, the taylings/taylangs, the sea elves and everyone else? It is the same number as 8th century Europe, and 8th century Europe was a largely unsettled and wild place.
Originally posted by ferratus
Besides, is 25 million that terrible a number for all the sentient races of Krynn? Not just the PC races, but the goblins, the kuo-toa, the draconians, the taylings/taylangs, the sea elves and everyone else? It is the same number as 8th century Europe, and 8th century Europe was a largely unsettled and wild place.
However, Ansalon is not a largely unsettled and wild place to this degree, I think. Additionally, a much larger factor is the technology level of Ansalon which is several centuries beyond 8th century Europe. This means a large population....I'd know that 14-16th Century Europe was not a terribly civilized place either....yet they supported large populations.
Additionally, most of the analogies I hae seen have *failed* to take into account the fact that Mountain Dwarves, Kuo-toa, sea elves, and other races don't live in the same land has humans would, nor are their food sources the same. You'd have to calculate their populations as an *addition* to the europe-analogy population.
QuentinGeorge made every comment I would have liked to make (thereabouts), and the main thing I'd like to add is that the 60 million figure from Europe is from a time of constant wars/disease/death....and so it is a good starting point. I'd also like to emphasize that large city populations with Krynn-style technology *require* vast amounts of people in rural settings farming to produce food. It isn't late 20th century Earth where you have machines to do the vast majority of the work. There's been no industrial revolution on Krynn.
-Drachasor
Originally posted by Drachasor ...the 60 million figure from Europe is from a time of constant wars/disease/death....and so it is a good starting point.[/b]
And let's not forget that the real world has been struck by diseases comparable to a Krynnish cataclysm. 20 million europeans (that's more than 35% of the entire population of the time) were killed by Black Death. The influenza pandemic killed 40-70 million people (depending on estimates) in 1918. Imagine what would have happened if the pandemic had struck a couple of hundred years earlier. There might not be anyone left here.
Ansalon seems more 13th-14th century level technology, what with the heavy armour, codes of chivalry, stirrup technology
In fact, based on the sizes of Palanthas, Gwynned, Solanthus etc...
I would see late 4th age Solamnia as being over 6 million in population easily.
Northern Ergoth, a little smaller, but over 3 million easily.
10 million for the entire continent strikes me as crazy, particularly seeing as how in the latest novels, Neraka seems to have gained enough population to function as a semi-nation of city-states.
Personally, I see the demographic changes from 4th age to 5th age as such:
Solamnia -> large decrease
Ergoth -> increase
Abansania -> increase
Hylo -> increase
Kendermore/Desolation -> huge decrease
That means, less than 9% of the TOTAL population lives in settlements of more than about 1500 people.
The vast majority of people are farmers in small communities.
Ansalon, being fantasy, can be given a little leeway, but even if we only take in Palanthas and Solanthus (50,000 combined) there has to be at least 500,000 rural people to balance them out.
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
That, is a simple historical fact. Otherwise you are suspending disbelief to the point of silliness.
Well, let's not forget that this is a fantasy world, so don't worry about the suspension of disbelief thing.
But then, you're applying numbers here like everybody is a human being, which they're not.
Half a million to take care of 100,000? Gimme a break. Give me proof that Krynn has had this going all along.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Well, let's not forget that this is a fantasy world, so don't worry about the suspension of disbelief thing.
But then, you're applying numbers here like everybody is a human being, which they're not.
Half a million to take care of 100,000? Gimme a break. Give me proof that Krynn has had this going all along.
I don't see how you missed the part where we went over Krynn's technology level (in general). That clearly implies certain conditions regarding rural vs. urban areas and the populations thereof. There have been no books suggesting that magic is widely used to compensate for this, and it is strongly implied that no working Gnomish inventions are used to harvest or process crops. How then, sir, do you propose that the urban populations do not require a massive rural populace? As far as we know, as far as the books indicate, the situation is like 14th century Europe....you are the one that needs to provide a reason why this wouldn't be a the case, and the evidence for it. All the evidence I have seen doesn't agree with you.
If you find such numbers hard to believe, remind yourself that, in fact, they have been true in our own history. It might sound crazy, or insane....but it is the slow progression from spending almost all of our time finding and preparing food to eat to where we are today.
-Drachasor
PS/Edit: Waving a flag that says "fantasy world" doesn't convince...since Krynn works just like our world except where it is noted otherwise....it hasn't been noted otherwise in regards to farming and related matters.
Originally posted by Drachasor
PS/Edit: Waving a flag that says "fantasy world" doesn't convince...since Krynn works just like our world except where it is noted otherwise....it hasn't been noted otherwise in regards to farming and related matters.
And you ignored the comment I made about not every creature being a human being.
Do the elves farm? Do you think half a million elves are needed to feed 100,000 elves? Considering their abilities with nature, I rather doubt it.
I wonder how many gully dwarves are around, and I would imagine that they don't have farms either.
So, you can take historical evidence as fact all you want, but it only goes so far. THAT is the point of the fantasy world "flag".
You guys claim that there's no evidence of Ansalon having a thin population. Well, I see no evidence proving it has a high poplation either.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
Do the elves farm? Do you think half a million elves are needed to feed 100,000 elves? Considering their abilities with nature, I rather doubt it.
I know the problem of food for the dwarven nations has been discussed in several novels and products. A constant theme with Thorbardin is the desire for security vs. the need for trade in foodstuffs from the surrouding regions.
Minotaur farming is also well described in Lands of the Minotaurs. Kaz rides for two days through the surrrounding farms outside Nethosk.
While elf farmers may be able to out produce human farmers, they still use a massive labor force to produce food. This is why both nations imported so many kagonesti "servants."
Gully dwarfs, ogres, goblins, etc., all pull from the common food supply. Since they take without producing, the farms need to produce even more to compensate. Human history has always had beggers and raiders. The food supply compensates for that.
Do the elves farm? Do you think half a million elves are needed to feed 100,000 elves? Considering their abilities with nature, I rather doubt it.
I wonder how many gully dwarves are around, and I would imagine that they don't have farms either.
But Ansalon's low prevalence of arcane and divine magic post Cataclysm means it acts MORE like a real medieval world than Faerun for example.
If elves aren't farming or gathering food in large numbers, someone has to be, either Kagonesti slaves, or the elven nations have to be importing large amounts of food.
Gully dwarves probably mesh into other socieities, namely human, and draw on that common food supply.
Unless you believe there is somehow a "magic pot" in all these urban centres that spontaneously produces food, you can't just use the label "fantasy" to support the idea of a ridiculously small population.
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
[i]
Unless you believe there is somehow a "magic pot" in all these urban centres that spontaneously produces food, you can't just use the label "fantasy" to support the idea of a ridiculously small population.
I'm not automatically equating that a well-fed populace automatically means it's a large populace, either, which seems to be part of your argument.
Originally posted by QuentinGeorge
[i]
Unless you believe there is somehow a "magic pot" in all these urban centres that spontaneously produces food, you can't just use the label "fantasy" to support the idea of a ridiculously small population.
I'm not automatically equating that a well-fed populace automatically means it's a large populace, either, which seems to be part of your argument.
The numbers are relative - the less people, the less food to produce. I assume that's rather simple logic.
The point of all this? Every major city of any size at all can be listed in a couple of pages, which imo shows that Ansalon's population is small and spread rather thinly across the continent.
I mean, geez. Here's from the AoM: Bloten, primary city of Blode, and it's population is under 8,000.
Flotsam, under 2500. Hylo, under 20000. Kalaman, 3500.
Silvanost, 27000 pre-WoS, 17000 post-WoS. Tarsis, 14000
These are NOT large populations by any stretch, and they're so far apart it's not even funny.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
I'm not automatically equating that a well-fed populace automatically means it's a large populace, either, which seems to be part of your argument.
The numbers are relative - the less people, the less food to produce. I assume that's rather simple logic.
Except that you ignore the fact that a given city population implies a much larger *total* rural population to support it. The food has to come from somewhere, and it isn't coming from the city. As Quentin said, only 1-8% of the population will be urbanized....a very small number living in cities relative to the whole (of course this is the number of people that can devote their lives to things other than producing food and instead be thinkers, builders, soldiers, etc).
Originally posted by silvanthalas
[b]
The point of all this? Every major city of any size at all can be listed in a couple of pages, which imo shows that Ansalon's population is small and spread rather thinly across the continent.
I mean, geez. Here's from the AoM: Bloten, primary city of Blode, and it's population is under 8,000.
So, conservatively assuming that Krynnish folk are quite good at producing food, that's 70k+ out in the countryside and not in cities producing food for that town. It could be as high as 800k. Now Krynn is relatively advanced in medieval terms, so it is probably closer to the 8% figure in general (depending on the race). Let's be ultraconservative though and assume that we can support of population that is 10% of the total in urban areas.Originally posted by silvanthalas
Flotsam, under 2500. Hylo, under 20000. Kalaman, 3500.
Silvanost, 27000 pre-WoS, 17000 post-WoS. Tarsis, 14000
With rural supporting populations of 22,500; 180,000; 31,500; 243,000; 153,000; 126,000. If you are after the War of Souls then you already have well over half a million people (over .65 million) with just a handful a cities....and the numbers could easily be twice as large (or even 4 or 5 times). Remember, we were very conservative with out estimates. The vast majority of any population is going to be producing food for the rest since this is an technological quite dependent on manual labor to produce food. That's simply how it was back then, and there are no hints of gnomish or magical means to increase farming efficiency. Even Kao-Tao and Goblins would have this reliance. Naturally they might be even more primitive and even more focused on hunting, farming, and gathering to get food (so even higher proportions of their population in the field, and perhaps everyone needs to gather food now and then...some more than others).
Additionally, as I said before, races such as the Kao-Tao (sp?) and Dirmenesti (sp?) live in the oceans primarily and have populations that depend on ocean grown and hunted food in a manner much different from land based races. This means that their population is in addition to whatever europe-based estimation we arrive at for Ansalon. The same is true of the Mountain Dwarves, who grow their food underground primarily. So, in fact, the land, mountains, and seas of and around Ansalon probably support a much larger total number of sentient races than Europe did.Originally posted by silvanthalas
These are NOT large populations by any stretch, and they're so far apart it's not even funny.
Aye, the cities are not massive...but it is the farming population those cities require that creates the large population.
-Drachasor
Edit: Fixed spelling....I think
In medieval level societies advanced culture requires a large population. Period.
You can't get scholars, politicans, complex organised religion, industry, commerce in a heavily underpopulated nation. It defies sense.
A medieval city of 23,000 is roughly analogous to a modern city of 4-5 million. You rarely have them springing up in countries of 7 million. In earlier socities, even less likely.
I mean think of it this way: The Knights of Solamnia and their troops require a lot of metal equipment to be outfitted, this needs to be forged and mined, those who forge and mine this need to be fed by others, who also need to feed themselves.
Additionally, times of war (such as Ansalon encounters) requires the mobilisation of large amounts of peasants. If the population is too small, then there is no army. Full stop.
Think of how large the dragon armies were: Imagine the logistics required to feed and equip them. The support staff alone would have been enormous.
Originally posted by silvanthalas
The point of all this? Every major city of any size at all can be listed in a couple of pages, which imo shows that Ansalon's population is small and spread rather thinly across the continent.
Yep, notice I didn't add any metropolises and Large Cities to mix. However, Larger centers means that you have to have smaller centers.
Otherwise there is a market vaccuum that does not make sense if it isn't filled. Cities simply do not sustain themselves, and money flows first from natural resources. If those harvesting natural resources find it too difficult to access the services of the city, a smaller market will be created to fill that need.
I mean, geez. Here's from the AoM: Bloten, primary city of Blode, and it's population is under 8,000.
Flotsam, under 2500. Hylo, under 20000. Kalaman, 3500.
Silvanost, 27000 pre-WoS, 17000 post-WoS. Tarsis, 14000
These are NOT large populations by any stretch, and they're so far apart it's not even funny.
14,000 is a large city, by medieval standards. 25,000 - 50,000 is a world class city. Those are the Paris or Vienna or London of Ansalon.
What you are missing is that it isn't just the cities, it's all the other population centers that must support the big cities. The other 90-95% of the population. I got 2,500,000 by being very conservative with how many smaller towns and cities must exist under the canopy of the large cities. Very conservative. As Richard Connery noted, there probably should be a lot more. However, I'm keeping just enough small cities and towns to make it somewhat believable.
Besides, if you want to get technical most of the large centers are on the Northwest of the Continent. So that means that the majority of the population is concentrated in Ergoth, Abanisania and Solamnia, with the rest of Ansalon being pretty much blown up.
That means we got some pretty hardcore population density in those places.
I would agree with you here. In the Fourth Age, Solamnia was by far the largest in power, population, economic might etc (kinda like the US of Krynn)
By the Fifth Age, Ergoth and Abanansia had gained population at the expense of Solamnia, but I'd say Solamnia still is the largest nation. (in population)
Originally posted by silvanthalas
And you ignored the comment I made about not every creature being a human being.
Do the elves farm? Do you think half a million elves are needed to feed 100,000 elves? Considering their abilities with nature, I rather doubt it.
I wonder how many gully dwarves are around, and I would imagine that they don't have farms either.
I took that into account. That's why humans have so much more population than all the other races. If you'll notice, humans make up 40% of the population, the various humanoid hordes make up 25%, elves and ogres make up 9% each and so forth. Low birth rate deals with some (such as the dwarves and the elves) but mostly they just don't have an efficient means of producing food like the humans do. They are foragers, hunter-gatherers, scavengers and raiders. There can't be more than a million goblins in the entirety of Ansalon. A very small number given that they are found in every single nation on Krynn, and rule 3 (Throtyl, Holat, and Sikket'Hul).
Technically though, the argument that not every race is contributing to the cities is an argument for more people (humans), not less. I have been making the assumption that dwarves, elves, kender, and other races are a part of, and contributing to the success of the city centers. If I don't, then we've got to make room for all these races in addition to the humans that are supporting the city centers.
As for the elves, they seem to very short on population centers... but they are very short on population. Only 2 million for the regions of Silvanesti, Qualinesti, Southern Ergoth, and the oceans.