The Ogre Race should have a higher level adjustment (maybe 4). What do you think? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The Ogre Race should have a higher level adjustment (maybe 4). What do you think?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 13, 2004 23:00:48 Me and my friends think that the race Ogre from the Dragon Lance Campaign Setting is to overpowered to have only a 2 level modifier... we think it should be 4.

Example:

We think if the rest of the group starts out with non-level modifying races at lvl 5... then our friend the ogre with his +10 to str, +4 to con, and all his other awesome stats should be 1st level....I mean he already gets an additional +4HD and extra natural armor and the like. Doesn't this low level adjustment only open up a larger possibility for that we call powergaming.

Powergamers take the fun out of the game.

What do you think???
#2
The_White_Sorcerer
Jan 13, 2004 23:03:17 You should add the ogre's racial hit dice to get his total character level.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jan 13, 2004 23:04:57 Thank you...the ability scores and the racial hit die make it more powerful.
#4
cam_banks
Jan 13, 2004 23:08:15 Indeed. An ogre starts out with levels to begin with - his racial hit dice - and the level adjustment applies to those as well as any class levels to determine effective character level.

If it was just +2 LA, it would be overpowered, yes. Thankfully there's more to it than that.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 15, 2004 11:37:25 Ogre stats are pretty much right out of the Monster Manual and there are a slew of creatures just as powerful or more so without HD. Such as the Templates.

Bear in mind that even if you didn't have HD involved to 'increase' the HD up the level adjustment would still be pretty on target. The Half-Dragon template out of the Monster Manual is only a level adjustment of +3 with no hit dice and they get a slew of powers. You're giving up class levels and the ability to level at the same rate as your partners after all. An Ogre PC is always going to be 2 HD 'under' what encounters he should have to deal with. Pretty challenging for a character that is almost always going to be a front line fighter or the target of big attacks by the DM - let alone magical ones.

HD adds a level adjustment but it also brings with it hit dice, bab, feats, etc pretty much everything a class gets minus class abilities and skills - so really the only 'balance' is the level adjustment.

Just think about putting that LA +2 Ogre with his massive strength but only /1/ barbarian hd up against a group of monsters sized for a party of APL 3? I've tried physical races of LA +2 with no hit dice buffer. Believe me - its not always pretty I've also played an Ogre with the full ECL. It balances out the same no matter what way you look at it. In the beginning the Ogre may have that immense strength to help him but there's more to encounter challenges then just hitting hard.

They're still incredibly fun though

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 13, 2004 23:00:48	Me and my friends think that the race Ogre from the Dragon Lance Campaign Setting is to overpowered to have only a 2 level modifier... we think it should be 4. Example: We think if the rest of the group starts out with non-level modifying races at lvl 5... then our friend the ogre with his +10 to str, +4 to con, and all his other awesome stats should be 1st level....I mean he already gets an additional +4HD and extra natural armor and the like. Doesn't this low level adjustment only open up a larger possibility for that we call powergaming. Powergamers take the fun out of the game. What do you think???
#2 The_White_Sorcerer Jan 13, 2004 23:03:17	You should add the ogre's racial hit dice to get his total character level.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 13, 2004 23:04:57	Thank you...the ability scores and the racial hit die make it more powerful.
#4 cam_banks Jan 13, 2004 23:08:15	Indeed. An ogre starts out with levels to begin with - his racial hit dice - and the level adjustment applies to those as well as any class levels to determine effective character level. If it was just +2 LA, it would be overpowered, yes. Thankfully there's more to it than that. Cheers, Cam
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 15, 2004 11:37:25	Ogre stats are pretty much right out of the Monster Manual and there are a slew of creatures just as powerful or more so without HD. Such as the Templates. Bear in mind that even if you didn't have HD involved to 'increase' the HD up the level adjustment would still be pretty on target. The Half-Dragon template out of the Monster Manual is only a level adjustment of +3 with no hit dice and they get a slew of powers. You're giving up class levels and the ability to level at the same rate as your partners after all. An Ogre PC is always going to be 2 HD 'under' what encounters he should have to deal with. Pretty challenging for a character that is almost always going to be a front line fighter or the target of big attacks by the DM - let alone magical ones. HD adds a level adjustment but it also brings with it hit dice, bab, feats, etc pretty much everything a class gets minus class abilities and skills - so really the only 'balance' is the level adjustment. Just think about putting that LA +2 Ogre with his massive strength but only /1/ barbarian hd up against a group of monsters sized for a party of APL 3? I've tried physical races of LA +2 with no hit dice buffer. Believe me - its not always pretty I've also played an Ogre with the full ECL. It balances out the same no matter what way you look at it. In the beginning the Ogre may have that immense strength to help him but there's more to encounter challenges then just hitting hard. They're still incredibly fun though