I swear. Sometimes it seems we're watching a disaster unfolding inside Arthaus that's largely veiled from our eyes.
Originally posted by Walden
Um...would all Ravenloft writers, designers, artists, editors, playtesters, typesetters, etc. mind not feuding in public. You're upsetting a lot of the fans.
When you get a group of people together who are all involved in the creation of something, and they disagree on details of that creation, there are going to be disagreements, and some of them will be passionate. I'm afraid what you're asking is unreasonable.
I swear. Sometimes it seems we're watching a disaster unfolding inside Arthaus that's largely veiled from our eyes.
Some would argue that's exactly what's happening. Others would disagree . . . probably passionately. :-)
Personally, I've found those discussions to be the most edifying about just why things are going where they're going with the Ravenloft line. Why the Kargatane likely won't be writing anymore for the Ravenloft line, what we can expect out of future products to come, just how decent of a job the developers have really been doing, and so on, and so on.
I now see, or surmise as much, why the Kargatane likely won't be working on the Ravenloft line anymore. That's much more satisfying than hearing "just because," or that it's due to artistic disagreements, or whatever.
I have an idea of what kind of quality we can expect out of Ravenloft products to come from now on to. I can say, with almost complete confidence, that I will probably never trust to buying any Ravenloft product for the next few years without reading a few reviews and browsing it for myself in a store. Because one can be a fan without being a fanboy, and seniority isn't always an indicator of talent.
Those arguments are probably the best things Ravenloft fans could be reading about now. Because even if some of the things being said are outright lies (or, at the least, overly broad simplifications), they at least provide us something to look for in products to come. Which, when later products can help verify just who had the right of it, we can either give our nod in agreement to the way Arthaus has handled things, or make more informed complaints about the travesty that is their handling of the Ravenloft line.
Whoooo!
Can't stop the inevitable, y'all. Disaster unfolding? I gotta quote Mr. Hackard and say I disagree passionately. Let the good times roll!
Some people will probably disagree--passionately--with me, but I say we should not be taking sides in what is an internal dispute. Remember what I said. Most of what is happening is veiled from our eyes.
I like to know why things happen the way they do.
I know I'm a fool to get involved with this, but I'm starting to get worried about Mr. Mangrum's future. I agree that he has been one of the best and most thoughtful writers for Ravenloft (though certainly not the only one). Many of us had expressed the hope that he might be willing to return at some point in the future. But if he angers everyone at Arthaus and Wizards of the Coast by attacking them in public, will anyone be willing to have him back? (I do recall that Mr. Lowder had expressed such a hope himself in the past month).
Originally posted by Walden
I know I'm a fool to get involved with this, but...
As you admit, it's not your problem.
If John chooses to burn his bridges, they're his to burn. If it's a pissin' contest which ends and leaves no long-term grudge or repurcussions, then the more's the better. Either way, he's an adult (and entitled to all the rights and responsibilities therein).
So you may not be a fool, just someone who believes that all disputes should have an amicable resolution. Just idealistic, I hope.
On the silver-lining side, I'm glad to hear he's working on SJ's Munchkin line, now. Everyone needs a break from "serious" work, now and then, and every career needs diversification. Plus, with his biting wit and scathing contempt for munchkin-style gaming, John's sure to be an asset to that product line. I'm looking forward to it, actually...
Originally posted by TricksterGod
I can say, with almost complete confidence, that I will probably never trust to buying any Ravenloft product for the next few years without reading a few reviews and browsing it for myself in a store.
You haven't been doing that already?
Originally posted by Levinthauer
You haven't been doing that already?
Well, Kargatane-involved books haven't completely gone the way of the dodo yet, have they?
Had I the cash, I would totally trust it to going into a gazetteer without one review or browse through.
And up until the release of the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, and the ensuing developer's commentary on it, I hadn't completely lost faith in the Ravenloft line. I figured Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light to be exceptions, not the rule.
Not so much now.
In regards to John working for Arthaus again...I get the feeling that everything we're seeing now has been going on behind closed doors since quite possibly Denizen's of Darkness. I'd also wager he's doing what he's doing now because he's quite confident that it will no longer hurt his standing with Arthaus.
I guess I should note that I never found Heroes of Light to be terrible, just average. (I agree with most people about Champions of Darkness and found the class disadvantages in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook badly handled but other than that not too bad. (In a way the lack of change was kind of a rip-off, but look at it this way: better not to change than to change for the worse.) Also the publication of the that and the upcoming Denizens of Dread was forced upon Arthaus by Wizards of the Coast to update it to 3.5.
The mishandling of the above class weaknesses and the mass resignation of the Kargatane crew do give me some pause, but I still say we need at least another year to see the direction Ravenloft is heading. (Note: if you browse some of the other boards, you'll find people ranting that Magic: the Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons in general is being slowly destroyed. I have a feeling they'll be saying the same things five to ten years from now.)
On the silver-lining side, I'm glad to hear he's working on SJ's Munchkin line, now. Everyone needs a break from "serious" work, now and then, and every career needs diversification. Plus, with his biting wit and scathing contempt for munchkin-style gaming, John's sure to be an asset to that product line. I'm looking forward to it, actually...
:laugh: Yes, have you already seen his Munchkin Monster Manual, it's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time of roleplaying.
And yeah, I realize Wizards forced a couple of reprints on the Ravenloft line. I just wish that the Ravenloft Player's Handbook had actually been an improvement upon the existing core rulebook.
But! I never said I'd given up on the Ravenloft line altogether.
Just that I wouldn't buy any of the books without reading a few reviews or browsing them for myself, no matter how much the content might appeal to me. I'm exceptionally interested in the Arak, for example. But no matter how much they might interest me, there's no way I'd just pick up their upcoming guide without waiting out for reviews to show up and my own read-through at a store. Especially for the apparent rehiring of a Champions of Darkness author to work on it; I can only hope that it wasn't a mistake.
I don't necessarily believe Ravenloft is currently in the toilet, or even going there, but there's plenty of signs out there to say it very well might be. Enough that, while I won't be surprised if a book is good, it won't have been the assumption I would have had, say, six months ago or so.
They have been neatly put between the lines. Of course it damages the line a bit, but on the other hand I get to know the state of things and like stated in this thread already. Preordering a book is not an option. I am willing to preorder Gaz5(completeness of Core), and Legacy of Blood (Miller).
Gothic Earth book might be a nice one since Lilavivat is a promising author.
Originally posted by Walden
:laugh: Yes, have you already seen his Munchkin Monster Manual, it's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time of roleplaying.
Ahem. Give the editor a little credit, too.
Besides, the Munchkin Monster Manual 2.5 is even better.
Don't you work full time for Steve Jackson now?
Originally posted by Andrew Hackard
Some would argue that's exactly what's happening. Others would disagree . . . probably passionately. :-)
I can't see that happening. ;)
What I think is not really a point for argument is that the flare-ups here are an indication that the production system for the products was not working, for various reasons. Depending upon who you are, you see some problems as more toxic than others. But I think we can all agree that changes needed to be made.
The question is, with a line that is going to be written by more than a small circle of insiders, how to balance continuity and creative freedom.
What do you think of the on-line fan comment/review process SJG employs for products, Andrew? I found the SJG boards to be very useful when I was putting together GURPS Villains.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Originally posted by Irve
Of course it damages the line a bit,
Well, it could damage the line. The continuity support the K provided was very important, and a line like Ravenloft needs that sort of attention. But there are other ways to get that done. Hopefully, the developers will be able to find a way to compensate.
And this is not the first time that Ravenloft has undergone a "changing of the guard." I've seen three or four. That happens with long-lived shared worlds.
Cheers,
James Lowder
Originally posted by Walden
Oops...sorry, Mr. Hackard. Should have checked the credits first.
Don't you work full time for Steve Jackson now?
I'm coming up on my four-year anniversary, in fact. This makes this job the longest I've held any job continuously for the same employer, a fact which I find frankly terrifying.
Fun, most of the time, but terrifying.
Originally posted by James Lowder
What do you think of the on-line fan comment/review process SJG employs for products, Andrew? I found the SJG boards to be very useful when I was putting together GURPS Villains.
Sometimes, it works very well. Sometimes, not so much. I think it depends on the manuscript and how much, uh, "direction" the author is willing to give the playtesters.
(Example of direction: For God's sake, shut up about that and move along!)