Deities' non-intervention pact - and ways around it - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Deities' non-intervention pact - and ways around it

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Brom_Blackforge
Jan 15, 2004 13:57:27 I understand that the Greyhawk deities have all agreed not to directly intervene in Greyhawk, with certain exceptions (Iuz is apparently not affected by the pact because he's native to Oerth; Fharlanghn is apparently exempt; I may be missing others). Does anyone know where this is discussed? Is it in the LGG and I've just missed it?

I was thinking about this while reading the Philidor thread, since apparently Carl Sargent's original plan was that Philidor is a construct created by a couple of deities to get around the pact. I started thinking about other ways around it. I wonder whether any other ways around the pact have been developed or discussed in Greyhawk lore.

My thought was this: if Iuz is exempt because he's native to Oerth, then wouldn't Zagyg be exempt, too? Maybe Zagyg isn't exactly the champion that the forces of good would have chosen to stand against Iuz, but couldn't they find an appropriate champion and see to it that that person became a deity? (Someone like Mayaheine, perhaps, if she were native to Oerth?) Is there something that I'm missing?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
#2
Greyson
Jan 15, 2004 14:46:07 Hey, Brom. I think I have a small answer to your questions. Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, on page 164, indicates that "...no god above demigod level may enter the Prime Material plane of Oerth without the consensus of a majority of gods..." So, Iuz, Al' Akbar, etc. can exist on the ground in the Flanaess.

It reads in the same paragraph that there are exceptions. Ehlonna, Farlanghan and others have chosen to dwell on the Prime Material Plane, rather than their native realms. I won't quote it all here, just check out page 164.

The Phildor as a construct placed in the Flanaess by conspiring gods issue can pose a problem if it is a cosmic loophole in the no-dwelling on the Prime Material Plane rule. Why not go back to the avatars as developed by James West in the 1988 Greyhawk Adventures hardcover, and let loose on the the Flanaess each god's construct/avatar? They and Philidor can have a nice, right-out-of the Silmarillion, Tolkein-style, First Age God-war on the Flanaess and make all of our PCs irrelevant. This kind of esoteric uber-theme is why I take a pass on specious groups like the Circle of Eight, let alone god-level events.
#3
Brom_Blackforge
Jan 15, 2004 16:37:57 Thanks, Greyson. I never have my LGG handy when I'm posting, so when things like this occur to me, I don't usually check them out before I post.

What I had in the back of my mind when I posted this was the idea that a deity or group of deities might choose a PC as champion, and then the campaign storyline would involve the PC's ascension to godhood. (That would have to be a long-term campaign, of course.) So, it wasn't entirely about events beyond the PCs' power level, although I can see how it could quickly become that.
#4
OleOneEye
Jan 17, 2004 8:30:37 The idea of a diefic non-intervention pact never seemed to mesh well with my view of Oerth. First off, it necessitates the gods cooperating at least on some level. I have a hard time understanding how the plethora of gods would come up with this plan. Do Olman gods really get together with Baklunish and Orcish dieties to agree to pacts that will oversee all pantheons? Further, the non-intervention pact is blatantly lawful that chaotic gods would find hard to swallow. Methinks that Olidammara would scoff at anyone telling him to follow such lawful ways.

I think a more viable manner of keeping the gods from descending to the Oerth and carving it out is one of self-preservation. The gods are not omnipotent. When they come to the Oerth, the very structure of the prime material plane is unbalanced. Many powerful beings across the multiverse will notice. The gods don't come down because they know some of those powerful beings will come to hunt them and destroy them. Iuz survives because he has a tremendous defensive network in Dorakaa. Wastri is adept at hiding his presence. Fharlangahn is masterful at travelling, and is simply able to get away from all threats to himself. Ehlonna pretty much only comes to the very safe elvin lands of the prime.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Brom_Blackforge Jan 15, 2004 13:57:27	I understand that the Greyhawk deities have all agreed not to directly intervene in Greyhawk, with certain exceptions (Iuz is apparently not affected by the pact because he's native to Oerth; Fharlanghn is apparently exempt; I may be missing others). Does anyone know where this is discussed? Is it in the LGG and I've just missed it? I was thinking about this while reading the Philidor thread, since apparently Carl Sargent's original plan was that Philidor is a construct created by a couple of deities to get around the pact. I started thinking about other ways around it. I wonder whether any other ways around the pact have been developed or discussed in Greyhawk lore. My thought was this: if Iuz is exempt because he's native to Oerth, then wouldn't Zagyg be exempt, too? Maybe Zagyg isn't exactly the champion that the forces of good would have chosen to stand against Iuz, but couldn't they find an appropriate champion and see to it that that person became a deity? (Someone like Mayaheine, perhaps, if she were native to Oerth?) Is there something that I'm missing? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
#2 Greyson Jan 15, 2004 14:46:07	Hey, Brom. I think I have a small answer to your questions. Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, on page 164, indicates that "...no god above demigod level may enter the Prime Material plane of Oerth without the consensus of a majority of gods..." So, Iuz, Al' Akbar, etc. can exist on the ground in the Flanaess. It reads in the same paragraph that there are exceptions. Ehlonna, Farlanghan and others have chosen to dwell on the Prime Material Plane, rather than their native realms. I won't quote it all here, just check out page 164. The Phildor as a construct placed in the Flanaess by conspiring gods issue can pose a problem if it is a cosmic loophole in the no-dwelling on the Prime Material Plane rule. Why not go back to the avatars as developed by James West in the 1988 Greyhawk Adventures hardcover, and let loose on the the Flanaess each god's construct/avatar? They and Philidor can have a nice, right-out-of the Silmarillion, Tolkein-style, First Age God-war on the Flanaess and make all of our PCs irrelevant. This kind of esoteric uber-theme is why I take a pass on specious groups like the Circle of Eight, let alone god-level events.
#3 Brom_Blackforge Jan 15, 2004 16:37:57	Thanks, Greyson. I never have my LGG handy when I'm posting, so when things like this occur to me, I don't usually check them out before I post. What I had in the back of my mind when I posted this was the idea that a deity or group of deities might choose a PC as champion, and then the campaign storyline would involve the PC's ascension to godhood. (That would have to be a long-term campaign, of course.) So, it wasn't entirely about events beyond the PCs' power level, although I can see how it could quickly become that.
#4 OleOneEye Jan 17, 2004 8:30:37	The idea of a diefic non-intervention pact never seemed to mesh well with my view of Oerth. First off, it necessitates the gods cooperating at least on some level. I have a hard time understanding how the plethora of gods would come up with this plan. Do Olman gods really get together with Baklunish and Orcish dieties to agree to pacts that will oversee all pantheons? Further, the non-intervention pact is blatantly lawful that chaotic gods would find hard to swallow. Methinks that Olidammara would scoff at anyone telling him to follow such lawful ways. I think a more viable manner of keeping the gods from descending to the Oerth and carving it out is one of self-preservation. The gods are not omnipotent. When they come to the Oerth, the very structure of the prime material plane is unbalanced. Many powerful beings across the multiverse will notice. The gods don't come down because they know some of those powerful beings will come to hunt them and destroy them. Iuz survives because he has a tremendous defensive network in Dorakaa. Wastri is adept at hiding his presence. Fharlangahn is masterful at travelling, and is simply able to get away from all threats to himself. Ehlonna pretty much only comes to the very safe elvin lands of the prime.