The heavy, crushing emphasis on religion really spoiled the War of Souls for me. I'm not religious, because I think I'm too realistic and don't like to get my hopes up about things like that. Most religions are beautiful things, but I am VERY against organized religions (ever notice the church is always the biggest, most elaborate and expensive building in a town?) as I believe they are horribly corrupt. The only people I've know that are religious are not good people, they go to church so they can say they do and hold a "holier than thou" attitude. I don't like my face rubbed in that, it's my choice what I do and what I believe in. Organized christianity is false anyway, their religion is based on the Bible, right? They don't even know what the Bible is. The English version is a much corrupted version of the prigional, which is in another language. A friend of mine has had the fortune to read this with help from another friend who spoke the language, and was absolutley amazed at the difference. He said the real version was much more down to earth, much more violent, and more "pure". Someone changed it for their own benifit along the line.
Tracy Hickmaan also harps on about religion in "The Death Gate Cycle", also co-written by Margaret Weis. Wonderful in almost all respects, except that again he drones on and on about a "Higher Power" and all the people in the book that don't have faith in this come to generally awful ends and are made to look like idiots. ??? How can you write about magic and coverns and still rub our faces in religion, Mr Hickman? I know kids that have been banned from playing Magic cards, Warhammer, and having pictures of dragons on their walls because it is "sinful". Also, he designs D&D campaigns, or used to with his wife Laura Hickman. According to the Bible, it is "sin" to pretend to be someone you're not, which includes every RPG ever made. Maybe mormons are just different....
Sorry to rant and rave about this, but I'm sick of his crushing attitudes in books that are meant to be fantasy, to take us away from what is sinful and pressuring us to be good. I want to see knights slaying dragons, not converting and redeeming them. Grow up, Mr Hickman, stop rubbing our noses in your beliefs and go back to your Star Craft. I have no more faith in you as a writer, I asked you for help in my time of need and your email was a one line- "Thank you for your letter, it made me smile." Some rolemodel you are!
If you'd like to know more or verify anything I've said, check out www.tracyhickman.com
I was a Mormon once, and I can tell you that while their cosmology is a bit different it has no Dragon Queens with armies of ogres and undead with world domination schemes. And by the way, KoS will sooner jab a Dragonlance at a Red Dragon than convert it.
Another thing, I don’t know who your friend is, but there is no “true” perfectly translated Bible out there. I thought it was nice of Hickman to write back to you (most Mormons tend to be very nice, scary nice sometimes
), see I would have put you under my spam folder. You’re obviously a teenager, or you’re behaving like one, so I think you’re the one that needs to grow up. If you don’t like Hickman don’t read his books. I only had to read one Tanith Lee book to realize I won’t be picking up another. I also didn’t feel the need to go to a Tanith Lee forum to express how much she sucks, then again I didn’t read so deeply into her as you obviously do into Hickman’s.
I repeat: have nothing against religion. Clarification: have something significant gainst Tracy Hickman and his emphasis on religion in his books.
Just wondering if anyone else has picked this up, but maybe I'm just having a bad day (in Death Gate, book 4, the religion is really starting to get to me but I'm very determined to finish the series).
Did you not know that Dragonlance, beyond being created almost completely by Hickman, is also a fully mormon allegorical story?
Perhaps you've heard of the disks of Mishakal? You know, modelled on the golden plates that were given to Joseph Smith detailing the word of god as reveled to the Mormons? Or perhaps the Kingpriest of Istar, analog to the Mormon view of the fall of Catholicism? Maybe you've heard of the mormon thought that Man turned from God, and not the other way around?
Oh wait, you have. Its called Chronicals.
Dragonlance is the single most religious game setting you will find that doesnt actually have the word christianity anywhere in it. I'll give my bias right now before going further- Dragonlance converted me from an agnostic into the full fledged orthodox hindu that i am now.
You think Margaret Weis isnt religious? Have you read Mistress of Dragons? Do you honestly think that Tracy had some wierd corrupting influence on Margaret that brainwashed her into writing religious fantasy?
Good lord. Dragonlance is the series i love most BECAUSE it is religious and makes no attempt at hiding it. Sturm sacrificed himself because of his undying belief in Paladine. Raistlin repented after his death. come on dude. without religion, DL is just another variant of greyhawk.
And have _YOU_ ever read the bible? In english, let alone latin, greek or amharic? Cause i have, in all of those languages. Have you read the Gnostic Gospels of Thomas? The Bhagavat Gita? The Qu'uran? Talmudic Scripts? The Tao Te Ching? The Lotus Sutta? You obviously have nfc what you are talking about, outside of the standard ignorant teenage spite. I've met tracy hickman. I don't necessarily agree with the LDS, nor am i a Christian in any regard, but i have nothing but respect for him.
Also, you say you want fantasy. What the hell is fantasy? Knights fighting Dragons? You mean the same knights who were devout christians, fighting the dragons and lizards that worked for satan? You mean King Arthur and his court, a story based on the meeting between Christianity and the Pagan religions of England? Maybe St. George and the Snake dragons of ireland? Or maybe you want the Rakshasas and demons of Hinduism. Genies and evil wizards of Islam. Perhaps even supermen with hair that changes color when they get angry from buddhism?
Everything that we call 'fantasy' has a religious root. The romans and greeks and hindus had myths and legends of amazing heroes who fought supernatural beings. Later, Christians and Muslims had Knights and Dragons and basilisks and Old wise men sending little hobbits on missions with rings.
Take religion out of fantasy, and suddenly, the lord of the rings ceases to exist, which in turn wipes the slate of all other fantasy. Even Elric of Melnibone had religious elements.
As for D&D, did you know that Gygax was a jehova's witness, and that arenson is a born again christian? Did you know that James Wyatt, current super designer at WotC, is also an ordained minister?
bah. You probably don't even know that Mina wasnt created by tracy.
i need to stop feeding trolls.
Now, you're saying that every fantasy story ever written has at least some basis on religion? That I agree with you on, and your examples are very interesting.
It seems to me, though, that it isn't quite fantasy that's based on religion per se; maybe the other way around? Lol, that makes more sense.
I'd like to see Mr Hickman come up with an origional story then, rather than basically re-writing various Bible and religious texts as you say.
As for the rock I crawled out from under, it's called Australia. I don't think we even have mormons here.... We do, however, have plenty of kangaroos and rabbits?
By the way, I have read the Bible before. Or, rather, as far into it as I could manage. I found it facinating, but really not what I was expecting of the famous, legendary and most best-selling book in the world and certainly not what I was expecting of the foundation for a religion, a lifestyle and moral text.
Did you know, that in Australia Harry Potter has sold more books than the Bible ever has here? Have a think about it.
A conclusion: More religious people should be writing fantasy by the sounds of it, lol, they're living it according to you. Although, then I'd never read it again...
I feel I must reiterate that I do not, in fact, have anything personally against RELIGION ITSELF, but religious in-your-face fanatics annoy me and if all Hinduists are like yourself, then we really are going to need a god to save us soon.
May i ask you what you think constitutes an original story? The bible retells Jewish and Hindu and Zoroastrian myth. Tolkien retells the bible with extras from world war 1. Dragonlance retells tolkien with the help of the Book of Mormon. The lineage of most fantasy is the same. Star Wars, for instance, is the cliche hero myth coupled with zen buddhism. I highly suggest you read Joseph Campbell to understand the concept of the Monomyth and how it affects pretty much all writing today.
Harry Potter sells well? I hope so. I love those books. And if we want to play with allegory, the amount of Harry as Jesus comparisons is astounding. And dude, i really wish more religious folks wrote fantasy. it'd be cool to read =)
As for me being an in your face fanatic, this is the only point of yours i find off. I don't want to convert you. I don't give a crap what religion you are, or if you even have one. The condition of your soul isnt my problem =) I'm just offended that you lashed out at tracy hickman without any sort of basis. There are plenty of reasons to hate hickman. Your initial post isnt one of them.
I do not have a religion, for now my soul is my own affair and I don't need anybody telling me what to do with it so I can please them and make them feel better about themselves. But after reading your post, I think you're right, there is a lot of famous fantasy based on religion or partaking in various elements of it, I guess then that we'll never see an origional fantasy story? That such thing is impossible?
BTW, I never suggested that you were trying to "convert" me and wasn't insinuating that YOU were an annoying, in-your-face religious fanatic. I don't know you.
I would, however, like to say that my initial post was perhaps wrong and written out of quick anger, and should have been more carefully thought out. Suffice to say, then, that he is merely a let-down to me and I've been entirely disenchanted with his replies, and that I believe his emphasis on religion was a little too obvious and in-your-face for my liking in War of Souls. This is something you cannot dissuade me from, and I'd still like feed you to a troll
I must away now, lunch calls, and thank you for your enlightening discussion.
Oh, and don't make such crass coments about teenagers. It looks rather silly coming from a (21-22 year-old?) guy who's chosen avatar picture is pokemon. I'm engaged to a 21 year-old, actually. He likes Harry Potter too (so do I, have all the books. And not the Bible.) One more thank you for the suggested reading material, will look into it. I hope I have put you at ease now, good luck with your own religious pursuits and farewell.
I'm by far not a religous person, but try to be knowledgable about it. In a fantasy setting dieties are pretty much a staple in life. So I'm not sure what you anger is about religion playing a role in these settings. In fact if you look at our world history, you'll see what kind of roles religion played and currently plays in the world. In fact I heard on Paul Harvey news (whew! that dates me) that there are currently 83 recognized wars happening right now and 85% are based on religious belief.
If your angry because Tracy didn't anwer you. Can you imagine how many emails this man most likely gets on a daily basis. He has to draw a line somewhere. What was the question? Was it gaming based or philisophical? Maybe the forum can help answer it.
Tell me Sachar, do you happen to know what the First Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees? Don't even bother trying to give me the "I'm from Austrailia" crap either, this piece of American history is pretty much known worldwide. It guarantees freedom of Speech,Religion, Press, Assembly, and Petition. Guess what number the freedom of Religion and Press allows our old pal Tracy Hickman to do?
Write whatever he damn well pleases!
Nobody is forcing their religion on you. Tracy Hickman is not turning you into a Morman, Talinthas is not making you a Hindu, and I sure as heck am not making you a Lutheran. You hold the ability to choose what to believe and what not to believe. If you do not, then you must be a lesser being.
Frankly, I have yet to see your point. So Tracy Hickman used his being a Morman to help him write the Dragonlance books. So he places an emphasis on religion in his books. Good. He is allowed to do that, it's one of the wonders of a society like the US's.
If you posted to prove a point, you failed miserably.
I will agree with you on one point, while Hickman might have not been the one to create Mina, she did play out like an evil Jean of Arc inspired straight from the film “The Messenger”. Now, that's not the same Mina I read in early Fifth Age products, but then again she was a little girl then.
I've heard and recognized the fact that Tracy uses Paladine as a model example of good, from which his opinions are based off of his faith (from his religion and personal view points). Does that mean that I have to accept Paladine as the ultimate example of what is good and right in the stories? No, in fact I don't. Personally, I wouldn't trust Paladine unless I had a damn good reason. When I read the Appendix at the end of War of Souls, I couldn't stop laughing at what Paladine was putting forward as 'truth'. It was total propaganda for the 'good' gods, but I would never expect anything less from Paladine. It's how I preceive the character and my interpretation of the words put in front of me. But someone else can read it and believe whole-heartedly that he is telling he truth. And yet both that person and I can still continue reading Dragonlance without one of us having issues. However, my opinions are meant as a disagreement with Paladine, not Tracy. I can't enjoy reading about a character I disagree with if the character isn't written well by the writer.
The moral leasons are there if one wishes to accept them, but there is enough variety and vastness in Dragonlance that you don't need to without needing to put the books down and walk away. In fact, there is enough there to 'contradict' the religious stuff, at least in my opinion. Just like on Earth. The mormons can have there opinions and they can express them. I can listen, and agree or disagree. And on Krynn, you can listen to the different input given by the various authors/characters and accept or dismiss much at your own will (as far as moral 'truths' are concerned - obviously an event that happens is an event that happens).
In short (too late), Dragonlance gives me the room to develop my own opinions while not forcing me to accept a dogma that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. In fact, I love the variety of tastes. I just can't wait to visit the buffet line again.
My favorite books for over 20 years the LotR series has its basic story almost straight out of the ible. Morgoth (arch angel) gets high on himslef. He starts a hevenly war. he gets cast out, blah blah blah,,,sound familiar.
Most problems in life and fiction revolve around religions. A religion signifies something larger than ourselves.
Don't like it. Don't read it.
PS
This topic seems very very biggioted and hate filled. Someone should be banned for this post.
Originally posted by Hammerhand
This topic seems very very biggioted and hate filled. Someone should be banned for this post.
I haven't had a chance to look this thread over thoroughly yet, but I have contacted the WizO's asking them to double-check that this thread is kosher with the Code of Conduct.
My advice would be that we discuss the religious overtones in Dragonlance in such a way as to be beneficial to the boards. I would rather we stay away from bashing any religion.
Originally posted by Sachar
The guy is a complete fraud, I think it's Margaret Weis who's the brains behind their Dragonlance books. Tracy is more of a sci-fi fan, actually writes "Starcraft" novels, and he's a mormon. I have nothing against sci-fi, I'm actually being shown Star Trek videos by a friend (the "Voyager" series) and love it (I think he's trying to turn me into a geek, lol),
I can't believe there are people out there that actually like Voyager. Oh, well, people in Germany think that David Hasselhoff is bigger than Elvis Presley. :P
Kidding aside...
(BTW, I'm a longtime Trek fan, and while I like a handful -- count'em five -- of VOY episode, the series overall does not impress me.)
As for organized religions, I will take that as your own personal opinion for which you are not imposing upon us, because some of us will disagree with you, even a few that disagree with you are very passionate about (about as passionate as the Australians that want to be independent frome the British Crown). Some of us were born and raised going to church and still participate church activities. And where I live, the church isn't that grand, unless it is a cathedral, but that is a rare thing today. BTW, I'm Catholic.
I know you want a clear-cut view of good and evil. Good must live in happiness, and Evil must be slain. Which is why I'm surprised by Tracy's Mormon view, which is almost similar to the Catholic's, that we give each an every individual a chance to redeem themselves, even if they are corruptly born. (Remember Kang's Regiment? Taz?) By doing so, we promote the universal value of Free Will. Which is why we are born as a Neutral race.
I don't know. Can a realist believe in hope? Only optimists and dreamers do.
Originally posted by Sachar
As for the rock I crawled out from under, it's called Australia. I don't think we even have mormons here.... We do, however, have plenty of kangaroos and rabbits?
Yes, you have several Latter Day Saint churches in Australia. You are also known the world over for being tolerant, laid back and easy going people. I should know, because I'm from that part of the world. Or at least, a little south and east of you.
Did you know, that in Australia Harry Potter has sold more books than the Bible ever has here? Have a think about it.
No, it hasn't. But it sounds impressive, even if it isn't exactly true.
I feel I must reiterate that I do not, in fact, have anything personally against RELIGION ITSELF, but religious in-your-face fanatics annoy me and if all Hinduists are like yourself, then we really are going to need a god to save us soon.
Picking up a book and reading it doesn't count as being confronted by an in-your-face religious fanatic. If you don't like it, put the book down.
Cheers,
Cam
As for my point, please see the post about six posts down, the end of my enlightening discussion with Tan, and the comprmise offered. As far as I'm concerned, this issue has been resolved and if there are any other problems you have, you can take them up with me. I'm good at fixing problems, just try me. You'll find contact details in my profile.
Also, as far as Tracy Hickman goes, I hope he has a nice mormon life with his nice mormon wife and his nice mormon children, nothing against all of them now, as long as he keeps away from Dragonlance in the future. All that talk of "The One" and killing people for not believing in the same thing she (Mina) did added a very noxious air to the whole thing and left it severly wanting.
So, people, hope you all also have a very happy mormon (or whatever you are/are not) life, this discussion is no longer a part of my perogative and I shall hereafter ignore it's existance.
And FYI, Tracy Hickman is the polar opposite of Brannon Braga, in which I personally believe he is destroying the Trek franchise as we speak. But that's my opinion.
;)
Originally posted by Sachar
So, people, hope you all also have a very happy mormon (or whatever you are/are not) life, this discussion is no longer a part of my perogative and I shall hereafter ignore it's existance.
Well, that's over, then. So. Who's up for a drink?
Cheers,
Cam
WHOA.
I'm a Buddhist and I felt that was off. Let me see if I can probe:
Why exactly are you upset that Dragonlance (in particular) is full of religious overtones and references?
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Sorry, but Dragonlance without Tracy Hickman is like Lord of the Rings literature without J.R.R. Tolkien.
And FYI, Tracy Hickman is the polar opposite of Brannon Braga, in which I personally believe he is destroying the Trek franchise as we speak. But that's my opinion.
;)
Hey, Rick Bernan works very hard to drive the Star Trek franchise to the ground. He gets up very early and comes up with plenty of crap to ensure we don't ever see another Trek show or movie...
And we don't allow people to make personal attacks on each other. This includes attacking authors. (Is it any wonder they don't like message boards? Wouldn't it be nice to have discussions with the authors rather than just rant about them? I, the other WizOs and many guests hold that view.)
As far as I'm concerned, this issue has been resolved
Excellent.
*Clicked with Care*