New here to the boards. I have a question regarding the AoM sourcebook. Our DL campaign just started up about a week ago and there was some debate about purchasing the AoM sourcebook. All of us own the Campaign Sourcebook and most of us are familiar with the world as a whole. In our campaign, the setting takes place in the "Current Age" so the regular gods are back - no Paladine or Takhisis.
I was wondering if this book is valuable or has any extra benefit to a Player or DM who is not playing in the AoM time period? I'm looking for reasons why I should buy this book other than that the art is better, new feats, and prestige classes.
Any input would be great!!
Thanks!
Stormhawk
Summary of what has lead up to the period for which the book is published.
descriptions of various places (cities, towers, and fortresses).
writeups for several NPCs, some from the books, some not.
new race (Half-kender)
rules for using non specialist WoHS.
You can play an AoM campaign without it, using the DLCS and the novels, but the AoM does add more depth to the time period, game rules wise, and description.
I have found it worth the expense of purchasing it, but I will also admit I enjoy reading the various sourcebooks that come out for the games I play.
Originally posted by Stormhawk
In our campaign, the setting takes place in the "Current Age" so the regular gods are back - no Paladine or Takhisis.
I was wondering if this book is valuable or has any extra benefit to a Player or DM who is not playing in the AoM time period?
The current age IS the Age of Mortals, everything post-Choas War is the AOM, including the era after the War of Souls.
The best reason for purchasing the AOM, and in my mind pretty much the only reason to purchase the AOM outside of the additional Prestige Classes would be the vastly expanded geography chapter.
The AOM covers the cities, dungeons, countries etc of the world in much more depth then did the DLCS.
If your content with your knowledge of various places in Krynn as is, and aren't interested in the extra classes then your probably safe in passing on the AoM.
If you play 5th Age then there is no other as valuable sourcebook about that age (unless you have ALL Saga products, but even then this sourcebook gives recent developments better).
In my opinion this is better sourcebook than Dragonlance Core sourcebook (lot more, and better info)
The rules are a lot better too. The only complaint I have the mariner base class is too underpowered to be a PC class. It does however, function very well as an NPC class, filling the same role for the rogue as the warrior fills for the fighter. Otherwise the Rogue with a good "gather information" check is superior in every way with more skill points and a better increased damage attack. Thus, ironically, the rogue is almost a better sailor because while mariner has a higher bonus to balance, climb and profession: sailor, a rogue has more points to spend on these skills if he needs to. Plus, balance and climb checks are a minor part of the game, and profession sailor only comes into effect if you are piloting a ship under extreme weather. So it isn't really worth your while to take the Mariner base class even if you want to play a sailor character.
That said, I'd still rather multiclass, and still call myself a mariner. If I ever wanted to play one.
Personally, I'm not sure I'm liking the way these books are going. Although the cities are described at least well, they are described for only this particular time period. Sanction, which has been important in all the recent histories of Krynn, is only described from when Hogan Bight appears. If each book is going to explain a city for that particular era... with War of the Lance, is Neraka going to have a load on the Temple of the Kingpriest? Because we won't then have anything on what it's like since!
I felt the books should have been done regionally, so the cities could have been done for their entire history, rather than the one era book it's published in.
That would have meant an Elven lands one (South Ergoth, Qualinesti and Silvanesti), a Barbarians one (Khur, Que-Shu, Estwilde), Island kingdoms (the minotaurs, Ergothians, Saifhum, Enstar and Nostar, which I know nothing about), Solamnia (and Sancrist), the North-East (Taman Busuk, Nordmaar, Kern), the South (Blode, the Plains of Dust, Icereach), and then Abanasinia, Schallsea and Goodlund would have to be worked in somewhere, but it would require more than the few minutes of thought I've put in. And Istar, probably. Dwarven Kingdoms of Krynn has already come out, so it would be easy to redo that one so that it's up to date. Taladas would also be able to be done like this, as an add-on rather than an alternative campaign altogether.
Maybe Sovereign Press plan to do this anyway, and just wanted to do an Age of Mortals one for the alternative rules. I can't think that War of the Lance would be so different.
So why was Mystic in the DLCS and not the AoM book?
Originally posted by pddisc
Well, except that the mariner also gets the fighter bonus feats. It's like a cross between rogue and fighter, and if you wanted to do that, you might as well have multiclassed. Except you get extra bonuses to profession: sailor.
Yeah, you're right, if I wanted it to be a perfect NPC class I'd have to remove the fighter feats. Still though, I think the popularity of the class reflects that people would rather talk to mariners than play one.
The dirty strike does work - you don't get as much damage, but you can use it once against everyone you fight. Occasionally, rogues are not going to be in a position to sneak attack.
It would work if the opponent didn't get a reflex save against the attack, and the maximum damage bonus was a little higher (like +5d6 or +8d4). It is extremely rare for a rogue not to get into flanking position in melee combat, and plus a rogue can ranged sneak attack within 30 ft. on a surprise round, to a maximum of +8d6 points of damage. Plus, they can do it over, and over again which is good against those beasties that have a lot of hit points.
Personally, I'm not sure I'm liking the way these books are going. Although the cities are described at least well, they are described for only this particular time period. Sanction, which has been important in all the recent histories of Krynn, is only described from when Hogan Bight appears.
Well the default assumption is that you want to play in the Age of Mortals, so they provide information for the Age of Mortals. In the War of the Lance book I imagine they'll give the important cities of the War of the Lance (such as Qualinesti, Palanthas, Sanction, Flotsam, Nereka). Obviously while geographical information has to give the basic facts about the setting, it cannot detail everything. Hopefully with the Atlas we will get the basic facts about the Age of Mortals and hopefully with the WotL book we'll get the basic facts about the geography in the WotL era.
I felt the books should have been done regionally, so the cities could have been done for their entire history, rather than the one era book it's published in.
The bigger complaint I have is that the city entries tend to summarize what has happened in the cities in the novels, rather than tell a history of the place itself.
So why was Mystic in the DLCS and not the AoM book?
I'm not sure, given that you can't play a Mystic until the Age of Mortals, while a Mariner you can play in all ages. Maybe they felt a spontaneous spellcasting cleric would excite people enough to want to buy the Age of Mortals book? That would be a miscalculation, because it is an interesting campaign setting that sells campaign setting books, not alternate rules. For alternate rules, I think people would pick up "The Complete Divine" or "The Complete Warrior".
The bigger complaint I have is that the city entries tend to summarize what has happened in the cities in the novels, rather than tell a history of the place itself.
So we're agreed. We overthrow Sovereign Press and make the books ourselves. I'll meet you there.
Originally posted by pddisc
So we're agreed. We overthrow Sovereign Press and make the books ourselves. I'll meet you there.
*chuckles* Well, I am interested in gathering a team together to write a sourcebook set a generation in the future. Enough time to customize the setting to my needs. Things like restoring the Knights of Solamnia to honour, shrinking the desolated realms, having the Seekers rise in Abanisania, rebirthing the feel of the dragonarmies through the minions of the minor dragon overlords.
That would be a huge project though.
An NPC sailor is usually an expert with its class skills assigned to Profession (sailor), Swim, Balance, etc.
In my experience so far with playtesting and design, the mariner is more than capable of standing up to the other character classes. When multiclassed with other classes it holds up well, and its Sailor Lore ability serves to replace the bard's Bardic Knowledge in many respects.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
To be an NPC class in the same league as the other NPC classes, the mariner would have to lose all of its class-related features apart from its hit dice, base attack progression, saves, etc. As it stands, it kicks the ass of any other NPC class, which makes sense given that it's a PC class.
Nah, without it's fighter feats, it is pretty much equivelant to a warrior, with its extra skill points and dirty strike balancing out with the lower BAB.
Sailor Lore ability serves to replace the bard's Bardic Knowledge in many respects.
Not at all. It works against stuff a sailor would know, in port cities. It doesn't cover ancient legends about various tombs, magical items, nobles, etc inland. Plus, it doesn't do anything that a Rogue's gather information check wouldn't also do.
That pretty much is the rub. A mariner is okay if you are playing an exclusively maritime campaign, but a rogue is more versatile and often superior to the mariner, plus it functions inland as well. I'd rather just play a rogue and take the ranks in the balance, climb and profession:sailor skills I need to pilot a ship.
Originally posted by ferratus
Not at all. It works against stuff a sailor would know, in port cities. It doesn't cover ancient legends about various tombs, magical items, nobles, etc inland. Plus, it doesn't do anything that a Rogue's gather information check wouldn't also do.
That's actually untrue. The mariner's Sailor Lore can and will allow the mariner to acquire information not only about local events and customs (like a rogue's Gather Information check), but events, superstitions, tales, and other forms of lore about places anywhere in the world, both at sea and inland. It is a connection to the body of folklore and information shared by sailors and those they meet, not just gossip about the sea and port cities.
It's also based on the mariner's class level + Intelligence bonus, not their ranks in Gather Information (a Charisma skill) which, helpfully enough, is a class skill for mariners and can be used by them much as a rogue would use it.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
That's actually untrue. The mariner's Sailor Lore can and will allow the mariner to acquire information not only about local events and customs (like a rogue's Gather Information check), but events, superstitions, tales, and other forms of lore about places anywhere in the world, both at sea and inland.
Yes, that would make it more useful. It isn't presented that way in the AoM book though. "A mariner picks up a lot of knowledge by listening to local gossip in various ports of call or from the sea stories of shipmates". Then all of the examples given are about the ocean (ie. Solamnic Knight's family fortunes built on piracy, the location of a sunken ship of an infamous pirate etc.)
But if I can tumble into a crack in the ground and in the Plains of Dust and identify what tomb I've stumbled into... then yes it is equivelant to a bardic lore check. Take off the reflex save against the dirty strike and increase the damage to +8d4 then I'll play it.
The sailor lore is also about local gossip - presumably the mariner would have had to have spent some time in the nearest town to have picked up something about a random tomb in the middle of the Plains of Dust.
Didn't mean to turn this into a debate about the mariner. Thanks for responding. More input along that line would be fantastic!!
Stormhawk
Originally posted by pddisc
I don't know if I agree with you about dropping the reflex save - remember it's equivalent to a modified attack roll. At higher levels, if you get past the armour class of most things, they would never make the reflex save.
Correct. In fact, it's particularly useful against creatures or opponents who rely on brute strength and toughness as opposed to quickness or defense, giving the mariner an edge. If anything, I would raise the damage die to a d6 instead of a d4, since that seems to be more in line with bonus damage of this nature (sneak attack, duelist's precise strike).
The sailor lore is also about local gossip - presumably the mariner would have had to have spent some time in the nearest town to have picked up something about a random tomb in the middle of the Plains of Dust.
Sailors pick up a lot of knowledge from both passengers and crew. And, the mariner doesn't even need to be in a port city at the time he makes the check - unlike Gather Information, which involves the character walking about town and hanging out in bars during the course of the adventure, asking the locals for information, Sailor Lore represents all of the tall tales, rumors, legends, and overheard nuggets of info that he's picked up or acquired throughout his life as a mariner. It's really up to the DM to decide if he'd ever have been likely to have been exposed to the information the DM has on hand to give out.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Stormhawk
Hey guys! Thanks for all the input. Not really too concerned about the Mariner at the moment - just looking for info about whether it's worth buying or not and the potential it has for enhancing game play.
Sorry to drag the conversation over to the merits of the mariner, Stormhawk. On the whole, the Age of Mortals is a real favorite of mine, and that's probably only about 50% bias (since I contributed to the contents) and 50% actual use in the DL campaign that I'm running now. A lot of it is setting detail and story ideas, and there's also a great deal of expanded rules, classes, spells, and information to enhance your campaign. That was the general aim of the product, and I think it's more than succeeded.
Plus, it has some very pretty pictures!
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by pddisc
I don't know if I agree with you about dropping the reflex save - remember it's equivalent to a modified attack roll. At higher levels, if you get past the armour class of most things, they would never make the reflex save.
Yeah, but at low levels you would make the reflex save a lot of the time. The question I have is why the mariner needs this when a rogue can use his sneak attack whenever he is flanking or suprising an opponent? Isn't making it useable once per opponent enough of a limitation?