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confused about Thorn Knights

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
HobbitFan
Jan 18, 2004 19:46:08 Are Knights of the Thorn (Grey Robes) renegade wizards vis-a-vis the Wizards of High Sorcery? They seem to be but what class are they then? Are they sorcerors? Regular wizards?

I realize that some of them 5th age would be necessity have to be sorcerors or mystics because of the gods of magic being gone.

But what about the initial group that fought the Wizard's Conclave just before the Chaos War? If they are regular wizards then why did the god of evil moon magic allow black robes to die fighting them?

That has always confused me.

Thanks in advance,

Monty
#2
zombiegleemax
Jan 18, 2004 20:07:21 They can be either wizards or sorcerers, but as the Knights of Takhisis they were wizards. As primal sorcery was discovered and they became the Knights of Neraka, their focus became that of Sorcerers (the Epiphany). After the return of the gods and wizardly magic, they can now be either, though strong bias for Sorcery is prevelant within the organization, as they don't want to bend knee towards ANY god. They don't turn away wizards, but they seem to prefer sorcerers.

Nuitari allowed the black robes to die fighting them for the same reason the other gods of magic allow their followers to die fighting an opponent. Death is part of life, and the gods would quickly overextend themselves if they prevented all of their followers from getting killed, most likely killing themelves in the process.

Besides, the Thorn Knights got their wizardly magic from Takhisis, not Nuitari, and she was granting the magic by stealing it from Nuitari.
#3
Dragonhelm
Jan 18, 2004 20:21:55
Originally posted by Winterknight
Besides, the Thorn Knights got their wizardly magic from Takhisis, not Nuitari, and she was granting the magic by stealing it from Nuitari.

Not solely from Nuitari, but from all the gods of magic. At least according to The Second Generation.

Basically, a renegade wizard can use magic without having to have allegiance to any of the moon gods. Such is the case with the Thorn Knights. They operate outside of the strictures of the Orders of High Sorcery, and so they can pay homage to Takhisis and use arcane magic to their heart's desire.
#4
baron_the_curse
Jan 18, 2004 20:31:33 In Second Generation the KoT had there magic enhanced by all three moons do to Takhisis's interference. Now, with her gone, and the Gods of Magic back, I wonder if they have some retribution in mind.

I doubt it, but if the Nightlord was still around I would like to see his face if the avatar of the three moons ever appear before him to settle old scores. “Hey, remember when you guys kill the Master of the Red Robes?”
#5
Dragonhelm
Jan 18, 2004 20:55:12
Originally posted by HobbitFan
Are Knights of the Thorn (Grey Robes) renegade wizards vis-a-vis the Wizards of High Sorcery? They seem to be but what class are they then? Are they sorcerors? Regular wizards?

Wizards up through the Chaos War. Sorcerers afterwards. Post-WoS, it is possible for both wizards and sorcerers to join, but more likely the ranks will remain sorcerers.

I realize that some of them 5th age would be necessity have to be sorcerors or mystics because of the gods of magic being gone.

Indeed, the Thorn Knights nearly died out until the discovery of sorcery. The Skull Knights turned to mysticism.

But what about the initial group that fought the Wizard's Conclave just before the Chaos War? If they are regular wizards then why did the god of evil moon magic allow black robes to die fighting them?

The gods are bound by the laws of the gods, namely the one about free will. Nuitari is none too happy about the Thorn Knights, especially since so many were recruited from the ranks of the Black Robes.

However, he is bound to let mortals make their own choice.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jan 18, 2004 21:07:36 That said, Nuitari is also free to enforce the rules of High Sorcery, just as before. So I would imagine that the Thorn Knights will be receiving subtle "invitations" to join the Black Robes. Otherwise Nuitari will make it clear to his followers that the Thorn Knights are fair game, though I suspect that won't be a huge problem to them for a few years. However, considering the extensive stockpiles of ill-gotten loot the Knights of Neraka have accumulated, I'm sure there's no shortage of Black Robes that would be more than happy to prey on them at their god's behest.

A key thing to expect is that the followers of the gods are likely to start taking a dim view of agnostics. So the Thorn Knights and Skull Knights may not be well regarded even by evil forces.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jan 18, 2004 21:24:56 They will have a better chance of survival than an idependant Renegade though, as they are part of a relatively large and diverse organization, currently probably larger than the WoHS. That fact may lead other renegades to join the KoN, with the idea of safety in numbers. The Knights of the Thorn will prove to be a very difficult group to uproot and dispose of for the Wizards Conclave.
#8
HobbitFan
Jan 21, 2004 19:48:52 Thanks for the answers gang and good discussion. Many good points were raised. I'm glad someone remembered the drawing from all three moons part from Second Generation becuase I had forgotten about that one.

I understand the Thorn Knights and their relation to D&D character classes now.

In the current age I think something should happen to the Thorn Knights to balance the scales, whether it is action by the reformed Wizard Conclave or clashes with the Knights of Solamnia I think that the Grey robes have some hurting in store for them.
#9
Nived
Jan 21, 2004 23:27:31 But the grey robes are in a much better position than the Black Robes right now.

After 40 years the only Black Robes left are old men, and most of them wouldn't have been terribly powerful before they lost their magic. Sure the ranks will likely soon fill but still the Grey Robes have an established working military structure that is fully staffed.

Besides I'd suspect like the Grey Robes did with the Academy of Scorcery durring the early Age of Mortals they will try and send young squires to the Enclave to pose as members and learn their 'secrets'. Though the Gods will probably put the smack down you have to admite its a possibility.
#10
Dragonhelm
Jan 22, 2004 9:28:43
Originally posted by Nived
But the grey robes are in a much better position than the Black Robes right now.

After 40 years the only Black Robes left are old men, and most of them wouldn't have been terribly powerful before they lost their magic. Sure the ranks will likely soon fill but still the Grey Robes have an established working military structure that is fully staffed.

Besides I'd suspect like the Grey Robes did with the Academy of Scorcery durring the early Age of Mortals they will try and send young squires to the Enclave to pose as members and learn their 'secrets'. Though the Gods will probably put the smack down you have to admite its a possibility.

The Test would be the downfall of any Grey Robe who tried to enter the WoHS. The Test is designed in such a way that the Grey Robe's secret would be discovered. Besides, the Grey Robe would not be able to take on one of the moon gods as a patron deity.

Now, a Grey Robe could pass as an apprentice, but I wouldn't think for very long.

The Thorn Knights are the strongest group of sorcerers on Ansalon right now, and I somehow don't think they're too thrilled about the idea of the Orders of High Sorcery reforming. I could imagine them trying to wipe out all wizards, or going on a propaganda spree trying to say how the WoHS put you through a Test that will kill you and how they're discriminatory, but the Thorn Knights welcome all (who pledge themselves to the cause, of course!).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 HobbitFan Jan 18, 2004 19:46:08	Are Knights of the Thorn (Grey Robes) renegade wizards vis-a-vis the Wizards of High Sorcery? They seem to be but what class are they then? Are they sorcerors? Regular wizards? I realize that some of them 5th age would be necessity have to be sorcerors or mystics because of the gods of magic being gone. But what about the initial group that fought the Wizard's Conclave just before the Chaos War? If they are regular wizards then why did the god of evil moon magic allow black robes to die fighting them? That has always confused me. Thanks in advance, Monty
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 18, 2004 20:07:21	They can be either wizards or sorcerers, but as the Knights of Takhisis they were wizards. As primal sorcery was discovered and they became the Knights of Neraka, their focus became that of Sorcerers (the Epiphany). After the return of the gods and wizardly magic, they can now be either, though strong bias for Sorcery is prevelant within the organization, as they don't want to bend knee towards ANY god. They don't turn away wizards, but they seem to prefer sorcerers. Nuitari allowed the black robes to die fighting them for the same reason the other gods of magic allow their followers to die fighting an opponent. Death is part of life, and the gods would quickly overextend themselves if they prevented all of their followers from getting killed, most likely killing themelves in the process. Besides, the Thorn Knights got their wizardly magic from Takhisis, not Nuitari, and she was granting the magic by stealing it from Nuitari.
#3 Dragonhelm Jan 18, 2004 20:21:55	Originally posted by Winterknight Besides, the Thorn Knights got their wizardly magic from Takhisis, not Nuitari, and she was granting the magic by stealing it from Nuitari. Not solely from Nuitari, but from all the gods of magic. At least according to The Second Generation. Basically, a renegade wizard can use magic without having to have allegiance to any of the moon gods. Such is the case with the Thorn Knights. They operate outside of the strictures of the Orders of High Sorcery, and so they can pay homage to Takhisis and use arcane magic to their heart's desire.
#4 baron_the_curse Jan 18, 2004 20:31:33	In Second Generation the KoT had there magic enhanced by all three moons do to Takhisis's interference. Now, with her gone, and the Gods of Magic back, I wonder if they have some retribution in mind. I doubt it, but if the Nightlord was still around I would like to see his face if the avatar of the three moons ever appear before him to settle old scores. “Hey, remember when you guys kill the Master of the Red Robes?”
#5 Dragonhelm Jan 18, 2004 20:55:12	Originally posted by HobbitFan Are Knights of the Thorn (Grey Robes) renegade wizards vis-a-vis the Wizards of High Sorcery? They seem to be but what class are they then? Are they sorcerors? Regular wizards? Wizards up through the Chaos War. Sorcerers afterwards. Post-WoS, it is possible for both wizards and sorcerers to join, but more likely the ranks will remain sorcerers. I realize that some of them 5th age would be necessity have to be sorcerors or mystics because of the gods of magic being gone. Indeed, the Thorn Knights nearly died out until the discovery of sorcery. The Skull Knights turned to mysticism. But what about the initial group that fought the Wizard's Conclave just before the Chaos War? If they are regular wizards then why did the god of evil moon magic allow black robes to die fighting them? The gods are bound by the laws of the gods, namely the one about free will. Nuitari is none too happy about the Thorn Knights, especially since so many were recruited from the ranks of the Black Robes. However, he is bound to let mortals make their own choice.
#6 zombiegleemax Jan 18, 2004 21:07:36	That said, Nuitari is also free to enforce the rules of High Sorcery, just as before. So I would imagine that the Thorn Knights will be receiving subtle "invitations" to join the Black Robes. Otherwise Nuitari will make it clear to his followers that the Thorn Knights are fair game, though I suspect that won't be a huge problem to them for a few years. However, considering the extensive stockpiles of ill-gotten loot the Knights of Neraka have accumulated, I'm sure there's no shortage of Black Robes that would be more than happy to prey on them at their god's behest. A key thing to expect is that the followers of the gods are likely to start taking a dim view of agnostics. So the Thorn Knights and Skull Knights may not be well regarded even by evil forces.
#7 zombiegleemax Jan 18, 2004 21:24:56	They will have a better chance of survival than an idependant Renegade though, as they are part of a relatively large and diverse organization, currently probably larger than the WoHS. That fact may lead other renegades to join the KoN, with the idea of safety in numbers. The Knights of the Thorn will prove to be a very difficult group to uproot and dispose of for the Wizards Conclave.
#8 HobbitFan Jan 21, 2004 19:48:52	Thanks for the answers gang and good discussion. Many good points were raised. I'm glad someone remembered the drawing from all three moons part from Second Generation becuase I had forgotten about that one. I understand the Thorn Knights and their relation to D&D character classes now. In the current age I think something should happen to the Thorn Knights to balance the scales, whether it is action by the reformed Wizard Conclave or clashes with the Knights of Solamnia I think that the Grey robes have some hurting in store for them.
#9 Nived Jan 21, 2004 23:27:31	But the grey robes are in a much better position than the Black Robes right now. After 40 years the only Black Robes left are old men, and most of them wouldn't have been terribly powerful before they lost their magic. Sure the ranks will likely soon fill but still the Grey Robes have an established working military structure that is fully staffed. Besides I'd suspect like the Grey Robes did with the Academy of Scorcery durring the early Age of Mortals they will try and send young squires to the Enclave to pose as members and learn their 'secrets'. Though the Gods will probably put the smack down you have to admite its a possibility.
#10 Dragonhelm Jan 22, 2004 9:28:43	Originally posted by Nived But the grey robes are in a much better position than the Black Robes right now. After 40 years the only Black Robes left are old men, and most of them wouldn't have been terribly powerful before they lost their magic. Sure the ranks will likely soon fill but still the Grey Robes have an established working military structure that is fully staffed. Besides I'd suspect like the Grey Robes did with the Academy of Scorcery durring the early Age of Mortals they will try and send young squires to the Enclave to pose as members and learn their 'secrets'. Though the Gods will probably put the smack down you have to admite its a possibility. The Test would be the downfall of any Grey Robe who tried to enter the WoHS. The Test is designed in such a way that the Grey Robe's secret would be discovered. Besides, the Grey Robe would not be able to take on one of the moon gods as a patron deity. Now, a Grey Robe could pass as an apprentice, but I wouldn't think for very long. The Thorn Knights are the strongest group of sorcerers on Ansalon right now, and I somehow don't think they're too thrilled about the idea of the Orders of High Sorcery reforming. I could imagine them trying to wipe out all wizards, or going on a propaganda spree trying to say how the WoHS put you through a Test that will kill you and how they're discriminatory, but the Thorn Knights welcome all (who pledge themselves to the cause, of course!).