I'm going to run this question for a week. A simple yes or no will work, but if you want to explain how much larger, or why it should stay the same size, chip in. One thing I do not want this thread to turn into is discussions on kreen empires, lands beyond the known maps, the dragon, or giant space hampsters.
Let's hear it.
Meanwhile, I'll eat cotton candy.
Bigger.
As it stands, the Tablelands aren't much a barren wasteland when the next village, fort, slave tribe, kreen pack, or elf tribe is less the a 12 hour walk from one another. If the 'official' material had kept the number of settlements more limited, I would say keep it as is. Its also a rather right fit when it comes to incorporating your own game ideas into it. Since mere travel is no longer as harsh as it once was with settlements and stopovers being so close to one another, I think it actually lessens the overall tone and atmosphere.
I appreciate the attraction of the "huge tracts of land" approach and the sparse, scattered world that it would depict. But the Tablelands should already come across this way. For all but high-level PCs, a jaunt from (say) Tyr to Raam should already be a major undertaking, fraught with danger in and of itself, without expanding the distances into the bargain. Many of us are happy to work with the setting as it stands. I say let the increased distances remain as an option only and not impose this on DMs in favour of the more traditional viewpoint.
See? I never mentioned the hh..hharrumph...never mind...;)
A pox on 56k dialups!!
Think Saragar Sea. The legendary location all hear of but so few venture to. Make Tyr Valley and the such a large island.
It would be neat to see how other areas dealt with the war that may have been worse or better off than Tyr Valley.
If you want this kind of feel, then I say increase the encounter chance anytime someone veers off the established roads. Have encounters of "road cleaners" while traveling on the roads to establish why you only get an encounter on a roll of 1 of 1d10 while on the roads, etc.
If you expand the distances then you will be having alot more Traders, PCs, etc die before they even get to the next settlement.
Venturing out of the Tyr region should be the thing you are looking for, with very few settlements, and those that do exist being very spread out.
The Deadlands is another area that PCs can travel to get that feel that you are looking for. Very few settlements, and most of those that do exist are very non-friendly to anything living.
Again, my overall vote is keep it like it is.
www.geocities.com/Athens/7117/athas/maps.html
How did it get defiled? I am not aware of any aquatic races on Athas. Nor have I ever heard anyone suggest it. Why would the Champions and there armies defile were there was no reason to cast magic? I guess their could have been large fleets warring out there, but I prefer to think that most of Athas would have to be dry land and mostly siltless. If this is the case then the size of Athas doesn't have to be Earth-sized as there is more than enough land to expand into. Now whether all that land is inhabitable or not is another question entirely.
In other words - No I don't think the Tablelands have to be larger.
"12 hours' travel" is quite a bit when you have to carry ALL the water, ALL the food, and ALL the firepower to protect your food and water.
Nightmare Beast? Who cares? You could outrun the bastard long before he was a threat. Even flying critters would have problems keeping up with the Crodlu.
Another reason I feel it should be bigger is the sheer number of large critters. Take the Antloid, for example. They're basically giant ants. They're listed as "Uncommon" in the original Terrors of the Desert. That means there's a good chance you could bump into one if you leave the safety and comfort of a city. Look at the map of the Tablelands and think about that. If it were as small as it is, then those warrens would be well-marked - there might be four total. Same thing goes for any of the big baddies: there simply isn't enough room for these critters to exist.
The last reason was due to the books themselves. In both Amber Enchantress and Crimson Legion, it took the Army of Tyr and Sadira several WEEKS to get from Tyr to where they needed to go. Granted, both took circuitous routes, but even so, this trip would be a little under one week at a forced march.
Those are my thoughts, but it sounds like I'm outvoted.
Oh, two other things on the comments above: On Mars, the surface gravity is .4 that of Earth's. A 200lbs Mul would weigh 80lbs. Not that intimidating. Since Athas seems to lack a dense iron core, Athas would have to be larger than Earth, but that's an argument for the size of Athas, not the known, mapped areas.
Cyrus9a, that half-water map is of Athas during the Green Age.
Good thoughts so far, guys!
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Okay, tossing my two cents in here (no, no giant space hampsters). I feel that those of you who feel it's just right were correct...until they added crodlu. Suddenly, with the Crodlu's HUGE movement, you could go from Tyr to Raam IN ONE DAY.
Nightmare Beast? Who cares? You could outrun the bastard long before he was a threat. Even flying critters would have problems keeping up with the Crodlu.
Another reason I feel it should be bigger is the sheer number of large critters. Take the Antloid, for example. They're basically giant ants. They're listed as "Uncommon" in the original Terrors of the Desert. That means there's a good chance you could bump into one if you leave the safety and comfort of a city. Look at the map of the Tablelands and think about that. If it were as small as it is, then those warrens would be well-marked - there might be four total. Same thing goes for any of the big baddies: there simply isn't enough room for these critters to exist.
Hmmmm, that does create a problem.
All I can say is blame the designers. Maybe not all of those forts are suppose to be there thanks to Dune Trader and the other accessories that put them there.
So maybe we should start attacking said Forts and remove any that we don't need, instead of trying to expand the distances in the Tyr region.
Not sure what I'm going to do yet for my campaigns.
It makes travelling much more challenging (no, I do not mean monster encounters), while still keeping the cities close enough that you can march an army from one to the other.
Kilamar
I still have a problem with the actual size and the number of huge critters that live there (you kill three Nightmare Beasts or Megapedes or So-Uts and you've likely wiped out a good portion of the population), but I'm willing to compromise that point.
Okay, tossing my two cents in here (no, no giant space hampsters). I feel that those of you who feel it's just right were correct...until they added crodlu. Suddenly, with the Crodlu's HUGE movement, you could go from Tyr to Raam IN ONE DAY.
The 3e crodlu has a daily move of 40 miles per day. By the fastest road route, it's over 160 miles from Tyr to Raam. You could get a few hours of extra movement out of the crodlu by force-marching it to death, but I don't see how you're going to do it in much less than 4 days... (I used the Tyr-Raam example because some PCs are making that trip in my game at the moment. It's taken them four days just to reach Shazlim).
Not sure if the number of forts is a problem - there are only 2 actually on the Tyr-Raam road (Skonz and Shazlim), and Silver Spring of course. There's nothing to say that (for example) Fort Iron is even visible from the road. It may only be a few miles away but a man could wander in circles for hours in the desert and not walk more than 2 or 3 miles in any direction.
IMO, what is the real big question here is why all the champions gathered in such small area. If the answer is because it's the better place, then why? Athas is harsher elsewhere? Less forest or water? I think the map that some of us recieved from DawnS do represent well why the SK might have gathered in this place.
We have to think that they might not have had the approbation of rajaat in the first place to install themselves in the crimson savannah. The kreen might be one of the first race rajaat didnt wanted to be exterminate. So it was a big no no to get there. Anyway, after rajaat confinement, maybe the kreen were too powerful for someone to try to invade them there.
YES, keep the tablelands and official maps as they are.
YES, expand athas to better fit the setting.
IMO, what is the real big question here is why all the champions gathered in such small area. If the answer is because it's the better place, then why? Athas is harsher elsewhere? Less forest or water? I think the map that some of us recieved from DawnS do represent well why the SK might have gathered in this place.
My thought on this is due to the proximity of the Pristine Tower.
If most of the races came from the tower, than they would have settled close to the tower. I know they would have had the entire Green Age to expand over Athas, but the Tablelands would have a higher population than other places in Athas. The Cleansing Wars would have caused mass migrations to the cities (safety in numbers) and many settlements outside of the Tablelands would have been abandoned or destroyed by warring races.
In other words: population, population, population.
I have a few theories.
With Earth, people evolved into simple hominids in Africa, migrated outwards, then back in, then back out again, pretty much spreading across the entirety of the world as we evolved into more intelligent beings (some more than others).
Athas had a different path. Halflings were at sea on floating islands (massive kelp beds? Who knows). Once the Brown Tide hit, they landed on the highest point which happened to be the Ringing Mountains. They came down and colonized that area. They created the other races at the Pristine Tower and spread from there. That was about 14,000 years before current times. Right off the bat, you have to take 4,000 years off of that due to the war on Preservers and the Cleansing Wars. So, in 10,000 years, how far was the population of Athas able to spread?
There are a few things to consider: 1) Due to the Halflings own war prior to the Brown Tide, their numbers were likely limited; 2) The races of the Rebirth were actually started by ONE male and ONE female, if legends are to be believed; 3) All the races started in one location: the Pristine Tower; 4) There were likely wars fought between the races even before the Cleansing Wars; 5) With psionics hitting an all time high, maybe spreading out wasn't entirely necessary.
So, if the above arguments are true (and they might not be), the population of Athas would be very limited and might not have spread far from the Pristine Tower. In short, with a very few exceptions, the Tablelands might very well be it. There could be far-flung halfling civilizations, and maybe a spattering of other races that were able to teleport out, but they would be few and far between. No, I think the bulk of Athas' population resides right there in the Tablelands.
Oh, and the space halflings living on one of the moons, can't forget them.
This has always said to me that the SKs were linked into a geomantic web of some sort - that by their very existences they helped keep Rajaat's wards in place. (Not an issue since Cerulean Storm, but there you go).
It's probably linked to or powered by the Pristine Tower somehow, so I'd go for that as the material reason for their location.
I'm also a fan of the idea that the rest of Athas is even worse than the established game area - this is the best of what is left.
Think Daskinor.
Originally posted by Kamelion
The timeline (iirc) talks about the number of living Champions/SKs as being significant and linked to Rajaat's wards. As the number of living SKs fell, Borys needed more and more sacrifices to reinforce the ward (eventually settling at a steady 1000). In fact, he awoke from his rampage period to discover the wards failing (probably due to the death of Dregoth).
This has always said to me that the SKs were linked into a geomantic web of some sort - that by their very existences they helped keep Rajaat's wards in place. (Not an issue since Cerulean Storm, but there you go).
Actually I think that has to do with the slaves they give Borys to sacrifice, not the SMs themselves.
I'm also a fan of the idea that the rest of Athas is even worse than the established game area - this is the best of what is left.
I agree.
It's going to be alot hotter, probably with nothing but lava towards the equator.
In fact, unless the race can withstand high amounts of heat, the only place you are going to have other inhabitants is near the pole areas. The South pole is already covered, that being the Deadlands, Crimson Savannah, Tyr Region, etc.
So what's up around the North Pole area?
Ice caps like Mars?
I leave it to your imagination.
Originally posted by Grummore
Why not in the rest of athas there is only primitive halfling society, Thamasku looking cities or not, etc. ? (we are speaking of sentient humanoid).
They would have to be near the North Pole, but I don't have a problem with that.
Makes sense in a way, though I would make them a little different than the current rhul-thaun.
Actually I think that has to do with the slaves they give Borys to sacrifice, not the SMs themselves.
Hmm. Yeah, it does seem to be more like that after another reading. Maybe still a fun idea to play with. (Maybe playing too much Mage on the side...)
It's going to be alot hotter, probably with nothing but lava towards the equator.
With the Tablelands near the south pole, the rest of the world must be a wreck - except for the north polar regions and maybe the areas near remaining water (such as the "great body of water" mentioned in WotJC). This may well be all that remains of the ocean that once possibly covered the savannah (the "Sunset Sea"?)
I'm almost done with the redrawn "Known Athas Map." Once I'm done with it, I'll start looking at other areas.
Dawnstealer, are you going to include a representation of the above "body of water"? The full quote (WotJC p49) reads:
"...the endless savanna presents itself, rolling off to the ends of the world where, so whispered tales rarely told, even among the mantis warriors that live there tell, lies a great body of water." Just a thought...
With the Tablelands near the south pole
Wait, wait, wait...
Why do you think that the Tyr region is in the southern hemisphere of Athas?
Why do you think that the Tyr region is in the southern hemisphere of Athas?
Because apparently that's where it is. Somebody got this from one of the designers, iirc.
Originally posted by monastyrski
Wait, wait, wait...
Why do you think that the Tyr region is in the southern hemisphere of Athas?
Information gleaned from, among other places, Secrets of the Dead Lands.
The Tablelands are in the southern hemisphere.
Originally posted by flip
Information gleaned from, among other places, Secrets of the Dead Lands.
The Tablelands are in the southern hemisphere.
Also most of the designers as well.
Going to GenCon is a good thing. ;)
Kam ~ Actually, what I am making is just a map of known Athas. That is, Athas that has been (officially) mapped.
I have taken the whole thing into photoshop and, mountain by mountain, tree by tree, remaking the map. Should be done shortly (maybe this weekend?), at which point I'll post it. I'm planning on having it be an image map, where you can click on an area and zoom in. Eventually, I hope to have maps of all cities and towns and forts built into it, but I'll need a larger web page for that.
I could probably spread the map out beyond the known regions, but it seems that a lot of people like the mystery. I could make the rest of athas a "quick sketch" and let GMs fill in their own info.
Kam ~ Actually, what I am making is just a map of known Athas. That is, Athas that has been (officially) mapped.
Oh, sorry - I misunderstood. No worries. Keep the mystery!
Sounds like an amazing piece of work, btw - can't wait
I can't wait to see it.It's good that you just map the known part of Athas, I like the mystery also.
I have taken the whole thing into photoshop and, mountain by mountain, tree by tree, remaking the map. Should be done shortly (maybe this weekend?), at which point I'll post it. I'm planning on having it be an image map, where you can click on an area and zoom in. Eventually, I hope to have maps of all cities and towns and forts built into it, but I'll need a larger web page for that
Good god that's great to hear. My map isn't anywhere near coming along . . .
--but then I've always viewed Athas as being the size of Mercury NB