Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2004 12:57:45	Everyone knows Athasian bards have a horrid reputation in the Tablelands. But the question has never been asked: Why? I have a theory I'd like to share with the forum, and I'd like some feedback on it. Long ago, when Athas was green and rolling blue oceans dominated the east of the Tablelands, bards were a force of good all across the land. Believed to have prophetic powers, the performances of minstrels was believed to have the power to augur the fate and fortune of entire nations. Even moreso than clerics, bards were seen as the instruments of the (false) Athasian gods. Indeed, the lawgiver of Godshome, the Vatican of Athas, was a bard, not a cleric! Because they were viewed asx recepticles of divine will, bards were forbidden to be harmed. While sacred law forbade bards from wearing armor or carrying arms, sacred law also declared the gods would curse any who harmed a bard. Even the goblin races (orcs, ogres, goblins, and kobolds) held to this law strictly. But when the Cleansing Wars began, the Champions corrupted the Bardic Order, promising the minstrels great power in the New Blue Age. Using their immunity to harm, bards would steal into nonhuman camps, and butcher hundreds before they were caught. It was during this time that bards lost their talents with preserving magic, and gained their talent with poisons and other toxins. Eventually, bardic reputations had been ruined forever, and the Bardic Order disbanded forever. Even now, now that the history of Athas is known only to the sorcerer-kings and Rajaat, does the reputation of the bard proceed them wherever they go. --what do you think? NB
#2 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2004 14:20:51	Interesting. Seeing a force of good corrupted from within is always in good Athasian tastes. You should develope the idea a little further with some details. Like, what promises of power? Seems to me they were already on top (never underestimate the power of religion). What would have made them side with Rajaat and turn against the people they preached to? Unless of course, the masses were becoming unresponsive towards the preachings of Godshome by carefully planned propaganda (headed by none other than Rajaat's own people). . . . and ever does the wheel of deception turn.
#3 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2004 15:45:33	Those in a position of absolute respect and power often find they want more, more, more...until they commit horrid deeds, and find themselves the very evil beings they once preached against. --it's a sad fact NB
#4 zombiegleemax Jan 22, 2004 21:24:30	I like your material. I want to say that straight out because I think I have a different opinion of bards. I can sometimes be abrupt when discussing things so I want you to know its with all due respect and has no malice intended. First, do bards really have a horrid reputation? Bards are skilled and charismatic entertainers. Every reference I can find refers to them as free men (and women) who are ‘prized' storytellers and entertainers. In fact, one reference said that nobles and rulers find it rude to turn a bard away! It doesn't sound like they're disliked. In fact, it sounds like a bard would be nearly universally embraced. As to their horrid reputation... Well, everyone knows that bards occasionally hang out with unsavory people. How else are they supposed to get all of the juicy stories!? If something turns up missing after a bard was by, it was probably that greedy little servant. Best to do a little torture to see if he coughs the item up. If not, just execute him to set an example to the rest of the slaves and but the incident behind you. Maybe it'll turn up later. Ah, but a bard came by and someone, maybe even the ruler, dies. Well, they had to have enemies, right? They probably used some mystical magical defiling means to kill the ruler. There's no reason to expect the clown that was reciting bawdy poetry while standing on his head. Anyway, he was performing for most of the night, and for the rest of the night he was drunk. Besides, the rulers dead now... there are positions of power to fill. Sure, there are some bards who mess up and get caught. If they live, they are marked as dangerous. Their reputation is ruined. The typical bard though would only have a bad reputation die to the company he keeps. Even with this bad reputation, the entertainment a bard provides far outweighs the danger a bard might present. I don't know, I just think that if bards had a horrible reputation, they would be pursued as criminals. They know who to advertise to and they know how to do public relations damage control. However, when you are in the poison and assassination business, you're going to get a bad reputation eventually. I think bards only have a bad reputation with certain people. If bards have a horrid reputation, its probably because they make it their job to enter other people's homes and kill them. Something like that tends to upset or offend people for some reason... That said, I see no problem in setting bards up as the religious big wigs. I must say that it would be tough to win a propaganda war against bards though. Bards themselves are the ultimate propagandists in my mind. Fantastic charisma coupled with fantastic storytelling skills? My money is on the bards. Anyway, just some thoughts. Do what you want with them.
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2004 7:09:15	My money is on the bards. My money is on the one who can spread fear amongst the ignorant. Works every day in the real world.
#6 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2004 7:22:14	Also: it's pretty common knowledge amongst the sorcerer-kings, templars, nobles, merchant houses, and adveturers that bards double as hired killers. With so many folks in the Tablelands being aware of bards' dark dabblings in poison and toxins, it would have undoubtably spread to the public by now. --and also remember: there are no heroes, public or private, on Athas NB
#7 elonarc Jan 23, 2004 7:40:37	I don't know, I just think that if bards had a horrible reputation, they would be pursued as criminals. They know who to advertise to and they know how to do public relations damage control. However, when you are in the poison and assassination business, you're going to get a bad reputation eventually. Most of the time, it is not them (the bards) being pursued. The people who hired them commited the crime, not the bard. Bards are more seen just like a weapon in this case.
#8 irdeggman Jan 23, 2004 9:31:43	I like some of this (the conversion from good to evil aspect) but have problems with most of it. The implication is that preserving magic is the 'gift of the gods' hence divine and not arcane. This is pretty much in direct conflict with one of the key campaign definitions. When they published the DS Skills and Powers conversion in Dragon Annual #1 they specifically mentioned the Player's Option: Spells and Magic optional spell casting systems and made it a point to say that defiling was soley a function of arcane (wizardly magic then) magic and not priestly (now divine). By introducing a fact that Athasian bards could at one time cast spells (like the standard bard) a whole can of worms gets opened up by people wanting to 'recreate' that aspect of the bard and have their PC be the 'one who followed the old ways' and could still cast spells.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2004 9:35:07	A bard that follows the old ways? Oh, really? And what sorcerer-king told that bard about the old ways? --remember, 99% of all Athasians know squat about Athas' history NB
#10 irdeggman Jan 23, 2004 10:51:27	Originally posted by Nero's Boot A bard that follows the old ways? Oh, really? And what sorcerer-king told that bard about the old ways? --remember, 99% of all Athasians know squat about Athas' history NB But bards are the keepers of knowledge and lore even in Dark Sun. If any class would know or maintain some sort of tradition in thas manner it would be bards. They still get bardic knowledge checks and hence could get there.
#11 Nefal Jan 23, 2004 13:17:52	Hi! NB you're idea is very interesting (actually I always more interested when we don't speak rules...) Could I do a comment? And an anthropologist one of course ;) The notion of "sacred" is a little bit ambilvalent. I mean a sacred person/thing is revered AND feared. Because the thing which is filled by the power of a god is dangerous (unknown) for the uninitiated. Here is another notion: the contagion. Only priests or peoples of great wisdom are usually allowed to touch this kind of persons/things. It is often a taboo to touch a sacred person (taboo is often much stronger as forbiddance cf. goblinoids). Now our bard. Maybe we could reevaluate his position in the ancient society. He was a the top, people had great respect for him, he was untouchable (think about this cast in India...), etc. BUT maybe this life was unbearable. When people love you, no probs, but when they fear you... ok that's fun the first times and then... bards could have developped bitterness... My opinon, if I follow my comment, is that was maybe easy for the Champions to corrupt bards. Power was a promise, of course, but maybe, normality was another promise much more interesting. Think about the traitor in Matrix 1 (I like so much this character!!) Were I comprehensible enough? Thanks for your comments! Nefal
#12 irdeggman Jan 23, 2004 15:07:32	The philosophy of 'untouchable' bards is very similar to the 2nd ed Celtic Bards. Instead of tying in arcane spellcasting perhaps something more along the line of bards being like hedge wizards/herbalists. They were dedicated to helping others with their knowedge of plants, potions and salves. This put them in a position to gather information and they were the 'storytellers' and messengers between lands, when functioning in this role they were considered to have 'free access' and were not to be harmed. Being corrupted with the promise of 'real power' they became more along the line of the 'assassins' that they are asociated with being today. Again a lot of this is from the Celtic Handbook and the role of bards in that society. Seeing as how there is no real promulgation of writing on Athas the function of bards maintaining the 'history' and 'spreading the news' becomes very important.
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2004 12:18:55	Irdeggman, I concede the point. --score one for Irdeggan NB
#14 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2004 14:23:53	Couple thoughts Mach2.5: "My money is on the one who can spread fear amongst the ignorant. Works every day in the real world." Not alone it doesn't. You have to be able to channel that fear into action (or inaction) for a specific result. That requires the propagandist to be charismatic and engaging. Nero's Boot: "Also: it's pretty common knowledge amongst the sorcerer-kings, templars, nobles, merchant houses, and adveturers that bards double as hired killers. With so many folks in the Tablelands being aware of bards' dark dabblings in poison and toxins, it would have undoubtably spread to the public by now." It seems like it would have, but that's impossible. If everybody really thought that bards were hired killers they would be out of a job. We might as well strike bard out as a character class or just change the name to assassin. Really, if you knew that all pizza boys were really assassins, would you order out for pizza? Would you accept a pizza that a pizza boy delivered to your house, seemingly on a whim? I know that I would start stocking up on DiGiorno! Niether would a noble hire a bard for a party, or accept a wandering bard into his house. It would just be stupid. He or she might as well cover themselves with gravy and jump into a kennel of starving rottweilers... Nero's Boot: "--and also remember: there are no heroes, public or private, on Athas" I'm not talking about heros. Quite the opposite, I don't think its practical. The sorcerer-kings, the nobles, the merchants or the Order would have squalshed these hired thugs long ago, if only out of a sense of self preservation. Elonarc: "Most of the time, it is not them (the bards) being pursued. The people who hired them commited the crime, not the bard. Bards are more seen just like a weapon in this case." This has possibilities, but I don't buy it yet. Why are bards sacrosanct? If someone hired an assassin to kill me, my wife, my husband, my daughter or son, I'm not gonna let the killer go. Whether its for revenge or some sense of justice, I'm going to bring down both the weapon and the financier. On the other hand, its possible to set 'Bards' up as some sort of cultural phenomenon, but as yet it doesn't exist in the published DarkSun material. Right now, bards exist as a sort of an afterthought. 'We have a bard class already, give 'em poison and pound that square peg into the circular hole....' The concept of a untouchable class that wanders the city dealing death for any that will pay for it doesn't fit into the cultural set up. Don't get me wrong, it can be done. It has to be explained though in a socioeconomic model that makes sense. This is long enough, I think, so I'll post another for the rest. I hope everyone's enjoying this discussion as much as I am. Please, I like to be proven wrong, feel free to take a shot at any of these points.
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2004 15:03:47	Hi all... Nefal: "The notion of "sacred" is a little bit ambilvalent. I mean a sacred person/thing is revered AND feared. Because the thing which is filled by the power of a god is dangerous (unknown) for the uninitiated." Side note, if the bard was revered, feared, and has the high Charisma, social skills and knowledge inherent with the Bard Class, they would be even harder to smear in a propaganda campaign by the Champions. Nefal: "BUT maybe [the bard's] life was unbearable. When people love you, no probs, but when they fear you... ok that's fun the first times and then... bards could have developped bitterness... My opinon, if I follow my comment, is that was maybe easy for the Champions to corrupt bards. Power was a promise, of course, but maybe, normality was another promise much more interesting." I don't know. Are the bards the only ones with access to some sort of mystic power? Nero's Boot's first post described them as a force for good. I assume that this good was readily obvious to the bard's followers. Would this make the bards feared or revered? Ok, so lets say that a boy is born. He's more attractive than most others, he has a penchant for remembering and telling stories, and he has some sort of knack or potential to tap into some sort of mystical power. Along comes the Bardic Order. They've got feelers out to find these gifted children. They assemble as small, mysterious delegation that sweeps into town, says the child has higher obligations, and sweeps the child out of town, never to see the parents again. The child is raised in relative isolation, only associating with others that are blessed, as he is. He knows nothing outside the walls of Godshome. His focus is on some sort of cosmic greater good. He learns abstract stories of the cycle of the multiverse, the struggle of abstract concepts of Law and Order, Good and Evil, and the necessity of devoting oneself to the Balance (I'm sure many see the blatant moorcockian influence here. What the boy learns is irrelevant. The point is that, while they boy is developing his social skills, they are developed in such a way as to be useless when dealing with the masses.) Anyway, something like this sets up a situation where the Bardic Order is revered as somewhat supernatural and still has a factor of resentment. The child was stolen from his parents, after all. The Bardic Order is out of touch with the needs of the people, even while they are ministering to them. They view themselves as being above the mindless masses, shepherds of fools. Meanwhile, the masses see the Bards as gifted mystical individuals but sense the disdain that the Bards hold for them. Then, along comes the Renaissance of the Champions and things go to heck. Or something like that, it depends on the source of the bards magical power. Well Nefal, thanks for the grist. That was a great deal more than I was planning to post. One more post, then I promise I'll stop bothering everyone. I want to address the Celtic bard.
#16 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2004 15:41:13	irdeggman: "The philosophy of 'untouchable' bards is very similar to the 2nd ed Celtic Bards." Forget that! Its similar to real life celtic bards!! (heehee) "Instead of tying in arcane spellcasting perhaps something more along the line of bards being like hedge wizards/herbalists. They were dedicated to helping others with their knowedge of plants, potions and salves." Just so that I understand. Nero's Boot proposed that the bards were the center of an enormous organized religion administering to a huge body of people. You are proposing that bards were a much more decentralized social institution like that of village and town shamans? I'm not saying I don't like it, I'm just making sure I understand. "This put them in a position to gather information and they were the 'storytellers' and messengers between lands, when functioning in this role they were considered to have 'free access' and were not to be harmed." So they are not tied down to a location but are more the wandering huckster who tells knews of the surrounding villages and sells tonics for keeping the cow alive, getting rid of the collic and regrowing hair? "Being corrupted with the promise of 'real power' they became more along the line of the 'assassins' that they are asociated with being today." Bear with me here.. So the bard is a sort of amusing ragged wanderer who is generally well received throughout the region. He or she is selling their wares when along comes a Champion. He says, 'looky here, bard, your shoes are pretty worn through, you wanna make some real money? Go over to King So-and-So's castle and sing a few songs, then tell him you've got a really good tonic. It's new and he's the first that gets to use it. Not only will it regrow his hair, but it'll whiten his teeth and take care of that breath problem he has.' 'What I want you to really do is conconct some nasty formula that can be absorbed through the scalp and will eat his brains, rendering him imbecilic, so that I can come in and take over his troops. Do this for me and you get [insert whatever].' Hence the Athasian bard is born... In my mind there are a few problems. But I'll get to them soon. "Again a lot of this is from the Celtic Handbook and the role of bards in that society. Seeing as how there is no real promulgation of writing on Athas the function of bards maintaining the 'history' and 'spreading the news' becomes very important.;) " Say that bards are a kind of cultural force, like the gypsies or the tinkers or the celtic bards. Say they became assassins as well as maintaining their previous professions. The movement from storyteller and beneficial potion maker to storyteller and hired assassin would destroy them. First off, they are wanders. That means that they are strangers and are therefore suspicious. This only gets worse if they settle down. After a few jobs they are accepted killers and so they are definately not trusted. Let's say someone moved into your neighbourhood and it became common knowledge that he took money to kill people. How long do you think he would last? Its even worse if you're a wanderer. Say it became common knowledge that roving storytellers were really hired killers. As soon as a stranger began an anectdote.. well, there'd be trouble... Going back in time to the real Celtic bards. They were the storage house for Celtic cultural history before the rise of Christianity. They were responsible for remembering, retelling and passing on an enormous amount of information in both poetry and song. They branched into the two other codifiers of culture, the Judges and the Druids. The Bard's lore encompased both law and religion as well as history. However, the bards were hardly untouchable. They had a tendancy to get political. Whenever that happened, there was an organized effort by the high king to put bards to death. Because of this, bards had a tendancy to flee Eire every few years or to be killed. So bards were untouchable when they were mearly talking history. Once they got uppidy, all bets were off... Given this, I don't see how specializing in assassination and allowing it to become common knowledge can be good for a career... By the way, I lied, I'm going to make one more post....
#17 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2004 15:58:13	To sum up... I think the Athasian Bard is rare. I do think that the majority of bards deliver a similar service that Celtic bards did. I don't think that the majority of people in the Tablelands know that members of the Bard Class are assassins. I do think that bards have a bad reputation, partly because of the rare deaths associated with their performances, but largely due to their affiliation with the more sordid elements of society. To explain... I think its perfectly reasonable for a bard to associate with elves in the Elven Market, searching for good tales. They hang out with gladiators and slaves and occationally brave the wastes to travel to other city-states. These are things that common citizens don't do. Hence, while the common citizen enjoys the tales of the bard, they do not approve (or perhaps distrust) the common bard's lifestyle. I think the key to the Bard Class may lie with the concept of secret societies. The real Athasian Bard is a member of this society, which probably has their own agenda, their own internal structure and their own methods of protection. Perhaps this is a vestige of a religious order, as Nero's Boot proposes. Maybe the group formed for another purpose. Maybe the SKs came to power and a group of people decided the way to servive in this Brave New World was to offer soma to the masses whilst pursuing a goal through blackmail and assassination. The whole point is, I'm not convinced that the Athasian Bard can operate as writ. Currently, they feel like a D&D concept forced into another game world's mold without thought of social consequence. As always, I beg to be proven wrong.
#18 irdeggman Jan 25, 2004 6:12:48	I think that Athasian bards are shriners. :D Wasn't there a description of the bards in the DS boxed sets that refers to them as assassins and entertainers and how wealthy people distrust it when someone sends them a bard as a gift (for entertainment)? I don't have my resources in front of me to check this out, but I seem to recall a specific write up on this in the rulebooks. It seems to me that the wealthy would be more likely to know that bards are frequently used as assassins while the commoners, would just 'hear rumors' and distrust strangers, etc.
#19 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2004 12:45:51	I really love how the ideas are flowing in this thread. Nice to know my idea has sparked such a lively debate! --and yes, I've decided to drop the whole "bards once used magic" angle NB
#20 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2004 21:00:24	irdeggman: "I think that Athasian bards are shriners." This is why I avoid parades... too dangerous.... irdeggman: "Wasn't there a description of the bards in the DS boxed sets that refers to them as assassins and entertainers ..." Yeah, its written up that way in both the original and expanded boxed sets. I just don't buy it is all. The gig is up, they're secret is out, everyone knows they're highered assassins. Yes, the Tyr region is a brutal, deadly place and nobody much cares if someone else lives or dies, but the self preservation mode is gonna kick in every time someone sees someone else juggling or singing a song. Up until the age of heros, the Region was dominated by a few major power groups; the Sks, the Order, the Merchants, and, to a much lesser extent in some places, the nobles. Why are these guys gonna let a bunch of fickle killers run around and endanger them? As a side note, I hope I don't sound like a pompous twit, though I probably do. I do like the basic concept of the Athasian Bard, I just don't think it makes sense yet. Any ideas to help explain them?
#21 irdeggman Jan 26, 2004 12:11:32	Up until the age of heros, the Region was dominated by a few major power groups; the Sks, the Order, the Merchants, and, to a much lesser extent in some places, the nobles. Why are these guys gonna let a bunch of fickle killers run around and endanger them? Because they (nobles, major power groups) are the ones who hire them (bards) as assassins. No one said that bards are fickle killers. IMO they should actually be lawful in alignment because they are killers for hire and if they can't keep their word then they are pretty useless as far as reliability goes. IMO lawful alignment means that the character keeps his word not necessarily as in the laws of the land type lawful.
#22 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 10:41:48	I should clarify what I meant when using the work fickle. Lets suppose bards fill their contracts to the letter. Lets also suppose that they have plenty of other contracts being offered (Athas being such a nice place to die and all). Eventually, they are going to get a contract against one of their previous employers. This being Athas, they will probably lose no sleep in fullfilling that contract and killing a previous employer... Would this really sit well with the ruling class? They have no idea if a given bard has a contract out on them. If they have the highest social standing in a group where the bard is performing, it is likely that they are the target. The only way that the ruling class is going to feel safe is if the Athasian Bard Class is a small minority when it comes to the entertainers on Athas, and/or the ruling class don't really know that there is a network of freelance entertainer-assassins. The other option is for every noble to keep every bard on retainer to be sure that the bard has a conflict of interests and can't take a contract out on the given noble, which of course is bordering on ridiculous.... The simplest solution is to eliminate the danger. Now, the whole DarkSun mood would benefit from a solution where everyone knows that Bard means Assassin. Imagine an upper crust party. Not only is there the lucious dicotomy of the priveleged few devouring an enormous amount of the land's resources for one filthy decadent party, as the commoners and slaves starve and die outside.... add to that the knowledge that the new acrobatic troop in from Kurn keeps looking at you with a nasty glint in their eye. Come on, what Athasian noble wouldn't want to be at a party where they knew that there would be an 'unexpected' death. Its better than being at the arena! That is, as long as they were certain that the death wouldn't be theirs. So, maybe it could all balance itself out... Perhaps its a cultural assumption that music and entertainment have no real place in the world and so its assumed that anyone going into that profession better hone up on their poisoning skills as well. Then, when too many contracts are taken out, the nobles get twitchy and go through a 'bardic purging' killing as many of the little blighters as they can, out of self defense. Then things die down and the cycle continues... well... um... that was kind of a surprise. I guess bards could be a kind of russian roulette game for the powerful and decadent. I still think that, if things got out of hand and the bards killed to many nobles, things would get ugly for them. Then they would make a slow comeback as the few who survived teach their trade to other potentials.. I was going to go back to my secret society proposal, which I still think is a viable option. I was going to also suggest that maybe the bards were an (unknowing?) extention of the Order. Oh, well, the best laid plans.... Thanks for the conversation, all. I guess bards can work out in the open as assassins, given the correct cultural response... (and given that angry nobles kill them off alot in retribution. I still think that a bard's life is a short life. But then, aren't they all...)
#23 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 11:29:09	This has been a truly engaging thread; I'd like to thank those that participated! Zeitgeistgeist: We are , of course , postulating that the public reaction to bards as hired killers would in fact be negative at all. Recall that Athas is NOT the Really Real World; on Athas, life is cheap, very cheap, even in so-called "Paradises" like Saragar and the Forest Ridge. Death occurs all the time, and most of the time, it is brutal in the extreme. This would likely have shaped the Athasian mindset in ways us in the Really Real World cannot fully appreciate. Perhaps to the inhabitants of the Seven Cities view paid assassins as just another fact of life, like sorcerer-kings and templars and slavery. As for why nobles would keep using a known danger, consider this: a deadly, potentially lethal tool is still a tool, and Athasian nobles are often arrogant enough to use them, regardless of the danger. They're allowed to read, write, and have many other rights the average Athasian city-dweller would consider incredible luxuries. Templars cannot prosecute nobles at low levels, adding to the nobles' self-delusion that they are invincible. Nobles even have standing armies, for crying out loud; in a world where death is cheap, having your own private army tends to bolster one's ego. --this has been a fascinating discussion, all around NB
#24 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 12:19:36	Nero's Boot, I'm such a malcontent.. Dispite saying I was satisfied, I'm still gonna argue a point (maybe I was dropped on my head too many times as a child?) By the way, before I begin (again) let me thank you for your starting some very interesting threads.. I've been a lurker here for years, but you drew me out into the glaring harsh unforgiving light.... I'm not saying that most people on Athas would have a problem with hired killers in and of themselves. Let's face it, its brutal out there! However, a tool is only a tool if its really usefull. Considering the small population of the city-states, there ccan't be that many nobles. If every noble and his mother is highering these bards to do jobs for them against other nobles, there aren't going to be many nobles left. On top of that, the nobles who are left are going to be on a hair trigger. So, nobles may normally have a feeling of invulnerability, but if they start seeing everyone in their class dropping like flies, they're going to start feeling their mortality. Suddenly, a bard doesn't look like so much like a tool as a liability. When this happens, its safe to say that the bards themselves would be targeted and eliminated. Having said that, its probably the low level bards that will bear the brunt. Though, the higher level bards will probably have a reputation, they will also probably have the skills and resources to get out'ta town. Offing a noble probably comes with a hefty price and any bard that has brains and the skill to infiltrate a nobles grounds will likely not only have a safety stash, but is likely to be smart enough not to take too many contracts in the first place. (The bard may be a valuable tool, but killing people in power makes the bard dangerous, and there will always be someone who thinks that they are safer is this dangerous tool gets out of hand.) Anyway, most of the low level bards are taken out, and maybe a few higher level bards get caught. Those in power have made a public display and move on. Meanwhile, the bards lick their wounds and lay low, waiting for a safe time to begin taking contracts again. In addition, they begin taking new charges, people who are as yet unknown to the ruling classes. These apprentices are trained, then sent out to test the water. If its safe, the well known bard may make his grand entrance back into high society. After all, he is a celebrity. Anyway, the Athasian bard really does remind me alot of the Celtic bard. Dispite the high position of the Celtic bard and all the social benefits they got, every few generations they would be run out of Eire, sometimes in quite a bloody manner. I mean, it was a group of people that lived off of the generosity of the nobility. If you could entertain it was a good life. So there were alot of people trying to be bards. It would get to the point where you couldn't throw a stone without hitting a bard. On top of that, they tended to compose very satirical poems that didn't always present the rulers in a positive light. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Anyway, just some grist for the mill....
#25 Shei-Nad Feb 03, 2004 9:49:42	Wow. I like this. A lot. I think I finally know what to do with bards and the logic behind them.Because indeed, I always had a problem with athasian bards. All classes complementary abilities, of course, but not without logical links. Paladins mix melee and good powers and spells, from their dieties, rangers and a mix of melee and druids, druids have spells and nature/animal like powers, and so on. However, athasian bards have music and... poison? In the original material, it's written that the assassin character kit is unavailable in dark sun, and that a rogue that's good with poison should play a bard. Ridiculous. Or so I thought anyways. Why would entertainers inherently know how to use poison, and rogues would not? And then, as many have pointed out here, if all bards had assassin talents, who would ever welcome a bard within their homes, especially when sent as a gift! The obvious reason why entertainers would not simply be turned away (i.e. killed on sight) would be that not all entertainers are bards. Mechanics-wise, common entertainers would be experts, and bards would be a PC class. However... There is still the problem of logical abilities. What links poison crafting with musical ability? And how exactly do bards learn such disparate skills in the first place? Now, the answer I already had is simple: an organisation. Bards can't simply be a collection of similar skilled individual who happen to know both music, poison and random knowledge. They are actually trained in those skills by their counterparts. Bards are accepted into this order, trained and given the secrets of their trade, and then set out on their own, with strong, loose or no connection with their counterparts, as they see fit, taking apprentices on a whim, and exercising their special skills secretly, blending in a crowd of entertainers. So, what of this organisation? I wasn't all that sure, but now I have it. Thanks to you guys. I'm going with the fallen bardic order of pacific spreaders of knowledge, music and non-magical herbal medecines, twisted into manipulative and secretive assassins, turning their herbal lore and tradition to more nefarious uses. The order was largely disbanded once exposed, but continued, albeit less openly and secretly. Their public face was gone, but their name endured however, so strong a part of athasian society as it was that now most cities have bard quarters, and the name has blended with the names of common entertainers. Real bards continued on secretly, using all their skills and powers to impress or subdue others, thriving on the intrigue of the city-states, and manipulating it to their own individual ends. The order has no common goal, no organised motive, no defined binds. Bards simply share a common knowledge, transmitted from one to the next, perhaps wanting to train agents for his own sake, or simply on a whim or out of a desire to bestow power and knowledge on one he deems worthy. Now, why did the bards turn bad, many ask? What could Rajaat have offered them? I think I have an answer: Bardic Music. Bards were not spellcasters. Surely, Rajaat could have and probably has offered them tutelage in wizardry, but for his roguish agents to be even more subverisve, the first sorcerer developped a lower form of enchantement, woven into the once harmless music of the bards, and disguised as such. This new power was very attractive to bards, and they fell. This way, the bards have a mechanical logic behind knowledge (secrets?), poison crafting, and near magical music. So. There I have it. Last thing though: Secretive and selective organisations often rhyme with Prestige Classes in d20, and so my Bard was, and still will be, a prestige class (for roguish characters). But that's another story, and I've rattled on quite long enough already... ;)
#26 zombiegleemax Feb 03, 2004 13:29:15	This would likely have shaped the Athasian mindset in ways us in the Really Real World cannot fully appreciate. Ther are actually real world examples of places so harsh, life was considered somewhat cheap in that moral sacrifices were neccessary in order to ensure general survival. Both the Norse and Mongolians practiced infantile abandonment when times were tough. While this is not really an example of the cheapness of life, on the contrary, it displays an even more extreme value on life, it does show that morals in the real world are and have been quite varied over time. Its easier to look at some of these places and take some very interesting notes for fleshing out a general population's mindset towards life and death.