Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 orinkar Jan 22, 2004 16:29:34	Hey, I've been looking over the Dragonlance Campaign Setting and the Age of Mortals books recently and became more firmly grounded in my belief that they are by far the worst edited and written books I own, and I have a substatial collection of books. Wizards really should be ashamed for the Campaign Setting book in my humble opinion. The biggest problem I've run into, stemming from the books themselves is what monsters are not in Krynn. The Campaign Setting Book lists a few but it's by no means a comprehensive list. I really need to know because I want to design a few factions for my players to encounter but I don't have the time to flip through 100+ pages of largely contradictory material. Keeping the flavor is a pretty big concern of mine, but I really don't have a great idea as to what fits in Krynn. I know orcs, drow and a few others specifically don't exist in Krynn. I'm also quite aware that some monsters that do exist in Krynn are different then those found in the Monster Manual. What I am looking for is a more or less complete list of monsters and such that don't exist that I can referance as I develop the factions and encounters. Even if it's just a list of names of monsters that don't exist, that would be very helpful. If anyone can help, I'd GREATLY appreciate it. Thanks, Aaron Evans
#2 silvanthalas Jan 22, 2004 16:58:59	Well, you can't expect them to give you a complete list that closes the door on stuff. BUT, if you show some patience, the Bestiary of Krynn will be out in March, and that will have a pretty complete list of what IS in Krynn, including some new stuff. So you could always work from that.
#3 randpc Jan 22, 2004 17:08:29	The only Monsters that are strictly disallowed in DL are lyncanthropes, drow and orcs. Psionics and Psionic using monsters have historically been disallowed in Dragonlance also in 1st and 2ed. The 3E crew is leaving Psionics strictly untouched and up to the desires of the players however. Regarding the editing of the DLCS... well, I suspect you won't find too much disagreement. It was absolutely horrible, second only to the first printing of Sword and Fist for the worst editing I've ever seen in a published product. Outside of that I felt the book was decent, not particularly good by any means with some major omissions but at least average. The DLCS has been debated many times already on here so I won't bother saying much else on that topic.
#4 Nived Jan 22, 2004 17:43:13	The Dragonlance DM screen companion booklet has a lengthy section on what Monsters are in and how they fit in. Its a good read. It continues to leave psionics untouched but an interesting note is on Giants. DL has giants, most noteably the Ogres, but also Trolls, Ettins, Atatches (technically a aberation but eh its giantish), and Hill Giants. The rest of the Giants don't exist as their own races, instead this suggests that individual giants of other types, fire giants, frost giants and the like are freaks occationally born due to breding between the 'normal' giants mentioned above, combined with their magical heratige (remember the Orges weren't always the way they are now), and the influance of the Greygem (what can't it do?). These bizzare individuals are more akin to mules, they can't breed true, but they do technically exist on Krynn.
#5 cam_banks Jan 22, 2004 22:56:30	You are unlikely to encounter lycanthropes, mind flayers, drow, derro, svirfneblin, orcs, half-orcs, half-dragons, duergar, githyanki, githzerai, driders, couatls, halflings, lammasu, titans, or the tarrasque in the world of Krynn. Previous sources may or may not agree with this list, but they have either since been revised or declared non-canon. For example, the tarrasque is in the Lord Soth/Dargaard Keep adventure in DL16 but nobody really considers that to be part of continuity (especially since it turned Kitiara into a penanngalan, a flying head trailing her entrails). The above monsters can of course be introduced into your Dragonlance campaign if you so wish. Once the game's in your hands, it's yours, after all. Cheers, Cam
#6 ferratus Jan 22, 2004 23:19:06	Why coatls and lammasu? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering why those two in particular. I'd avoid yuanti in exchange for dragonspawn... especially since the Forgotten Realms is doing a sourcebook called "The Serpent Kingdoms". Looks pretty sweet. As for the dragonspawn themselves, I think they might be the perfect way to ressurect the chaotic butchers and thieves of the dragonarmies, keeping the honour of the Knights of Nereka firmly in check.
#7 cam_banks Jan 22, 2004 23:27:03	Originally posted by ferratus Why coatls and lammasu? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering why those two in particular. The couatl has psionics, and it's generally a good idea to leave those creatures out. The lammasu wouldn't be difficult to include, but it's something I would relegate to the planes - it has mighty clerical powers and is clearly an agent of the Gods of Light, and thus should be a significant encounter if used. Cheers, Cam
#8 ferratus Jan 22, 2004 23:38:46	There isn't any difference though between psionics and spell-like abilities though. It only becomes an issue if you use the rules from the Psionics Handbook. Otherwise they are pretty much the same as beholders in terms of their magical ability. That said, I wouldn't use Coatls just because they steal the thunder from dragons as the winged majestic flying reptile. ;) As for the Lammasu, they are strange creatures aren't they. They mention they are extraplanar in origin, but they are magical beasts instead of outsiders. However, it does say that they guard over temples and such. I'd make them clerics who are transformed by a diety to protect abandoned holy sites from desecration until followers can reclaim them. Would be a good mentor character for the party's cleric. Even if we do make them extraplanar in origin, extraplanar creatures are as common as a "Summon Monster" spell.
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 23, 2004 12:32:27	+ the monsters in the books, "monsters of Faerún" and "denizens of darkness". just kidding.:D I Think Cam Banks nailed most of them, except for maybe some of the epic monsters, but usually there aren't important.
#10 sweetmeats Jan 23, 2004 13:18:18	I'm surprised that Githyanki and Githzerai are not included. Not for any DL reason but I don't see them as something that goes against the grain of DL. That make sense?
#11 ferratus Jan 23, 2004 14:18:11	In regards to the Githyanki, it is the whole flying in starships out in Astral space that tends to throw the dragonlance campaigns for a loop. That said, there certainly isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Dragonlance does have an astral plane, and it does have alien worlds connected to it (the alien dragons came from somewhere, Krynn's sun is now a new sun, etc.) If you like Githyanki a lot, there was a big splash with them in the pages of Dungeon and Dragon recently called "Incursion". It was a campaign which featured the Githyanki invasion of a planet. Dragonlance fits well with this, because the whole point of the Invasion of the Githyanki? Finding the body of a dead goddess so that the Lich-Queen can steal her divinity. Dragonlance happens to have one of those lying around doesn't it? ;)
#12 sweetmeats Jan 24, 2004 5:31:12	Yes, I'm using the Githyanki invasion from Dragon magazine as the basis for my current Dragonlance game. I agree with the astral starship thing so I dropped that right away.
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 24, 2004 20:33:45	Just remmeber that as DM, you have the authority to do pretty much whatever you want. For example, I did not know that Lycantharopes are not par tof hte DragonLance setting. But I have already decided to make WereWolves to be something specifically sent down by Sargonnas in his war, and as such, WereWolves are going to appear in my campaign.
#14 dragontooth Jan 25, 2004 0:37:44	Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte Just remmeber that as DM, you have the authority to do pretty much whatever you want. For example, I did not know that Lycantharopes are not par tof hte DragonLance setting. But I have already decided to make WereWolves to be something specifically sent down by Sargonnas in his war, and as such, WereWolves are going to appear in my campaign. Well its cool as long as you make sure to have the Black moon affect the werewolf. Also Since Lycanthropy is a Disease you should have the evil god Morgion starting it. Since he is the God of Disease. I can't picture Sargonnas spreading disease such as Lycanthropy its so unHonorable. Also werewolves are CE Sargonnas is LE. Sargonnas doesn't even allow CE clerics. Morgion is NE and enjoys spreading disease. Besides he would think Lycanthropy to be the ultimate disease with promises to the people that have it. That they could control it if they worshipped him.
#15 ferratus Jan 25, 2004 2:03:37	Originally posted by SweetMeats Yes, I'm using the Githyanki invasion from Dragon magazine as the basis for my current Dragonlance game. I agree with the astral starship thing so I dropped that right away. That's the coolest part about Githyanki though! Without the starships, astral swords, and such they just become hobgoblins riding dragons with a few magical abilities. I say don't be afraid to include the astral starships with the invasion of the planet because you are indeed invading the planet from the astral plane. However, since planar travel is almost unheard of on Krynn (being limited to the most powerful wizards and sorcerers) the Githyanki do not have a place in the Krynnish person's mind like the goblins, ogres or bugbears. They'll just be saying "Who are these guys, and where did they come from?" Then they get butchered.
#16 ferratus Jan 25, 2004 2:07:09	Originally posted by Dragontooth Well its cool as long as you make sure to have the Black moon affect the werewolf. I don't know, when you toss lyncanthropes into the mix that are affected by the Black Moon, Nuitari loses his mystique as the master of black magic alone. That is all he is supposed to care about. Sure you can argue that lyncanthropy is a magical curse, but so is vampirism or magically spawned races such as draconians. It just seems like he becomes responsible for too much when his primary focus should be on "rose petals and death".
#17 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2004 2:41:07	Originally posted by Dragontooth Well its cool as long as you make sure to have the Black moon affect the werewolf. I actually did not consider that, the 3 Moons of Krynn. My main reason for including Werewolves were going to come primarily based on a campaign setting that replicates events from the old Sega Genesis game WARSONG. I was also going to take parts from the WEREWOLF: THE APOCALYPSE game as a basis for my WereWolf culture. But...you have given me an idea.... Also Since Lycanthropy is a Disease you should have the evil god Morgion starting it. Since he is the God of Disease. Thats true, but in my particular scenario, based on the WereWolf game, it won't be a lycanthropy thing, although I do see where you are coming from. Rather, I am going to have a 'three tribes' of WereWolves, similar to the WereWofl game, will base t hem on the evil BLACK SPIRAL DANCER tribe. As such, Morgion will want these werewolves to be there to be as brutal and bloodthirsty as they want, though. I can't picture Sargonnas spreading disease such as Lycanthropy its so unHonorable. Also werewolves are CE Sargonnas is LE. Sargonnas doesn't even allow CE clerics. Morgion is NE and enjoys spreading disease. Besides he would think Lycanthropy to be the ultimate disease with promises to the people that have it. That they could control it if they worshipped him. It's true that from a disease standpoint, that yes, I can see why it should be based on Morgion's standpoint. Thanks for giving me the new idea's for this, as it will help out immensely.
#18 orinkar Jan 25, 2004 14:01:32	Werewolves in Dragonlance, that is interesthing. I've been tossing the idea of a vampire "cult" around for use in my campaign. I did a campaign with a vampire element in it before but I didn't introduce them until the campaign was nearly over. Where would be a good place for Vampires to come from? I thought maybe Neraka but for some reason I don't see them letting a group of vampires go unnoticed and unchecked for very long. I could be wrong though, I haven't really read any of the novels. Any ideas? -Aaron Evans
#19 zombiegleemax Jan 25, 2004 14:38:05	Part of the campaign I am going to do involves Chemosh taking advantage of the bloodshed of the KINSLAYER war in Southern Ansalon, to form the backbone of a legion of the Undead to be animated by his necromancers. Aside from that, in the region, Chemosh is going to unleash a powerfull Vampire Count and some other things that he has been storing for for years. In the actual novel on the KinSlayer war, it was made clear by the ERgothian General Giarna, that he was a follower of Morgion and as such, Morgion was a principle reason to keep the KinSlayer wars going on as long as they did.
#20 zombiegleemax Jan 26, 2004 0:31:58	I know orcs, drow and a few others specifically don't exist in Krynn. I'm also quite aware that some monsters that do exist in Krynn are different then those found in the Monster Manual. Just because they are not 'natural' to Krynn does not mean they don't appear at all. From the very first DragonLance Novels, they did mention the Drow Elf quite prominently that Raistlin battled during his Test. My personal theory is that even while Raistlin was taking his Test, so to was a Drow Elf from whatever realm it was from, the test that Drow's take in service to Lolth, their Demon Queen. That during both of their tests, that somehow the powers of magic drew them close and into battle, and thus, the effect where Raist was hurt and needed the help of Fistandantilus to survive. Chances are the Drow failed and was turned into a drider, completely oblivious to what happened to him.
#21 daedavias_dup Jan 26, 2004 0:37:34	Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte Just because they are not 'natural' to Krynn does not mean they don't appear at all. From the very first DragonLance Novels, they did mention the Drow Elf quite prominently that Raistlin battled during his Test. Drow is synonymous with dark elf. Dalamar is a dark elf. Look at the cover of Dalamar the Dark, he sure as heck ain't black skinned no white haired. The details behind the dark elf he fights in the test is better elaborated in the Soulforge. Or take, for example, Porthios and Alhana. They are both dark elves.
#22 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2004 21:34:31	Okay, I have an explanation for this. You see, way back when, DL was still in its formative years. Back then, they *WERE* Drow, but then it was realized the drow didn't exist on Krynn, so they just said "Erm, we meant dark elves." Drow do not exist, and if they did, no one on Krynn would know what they were. DISCLAIMER: This is only a theory, I didn't ask Weis and Hickman about it.
#23 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2004 21:44:35	Originally posted by Jacen Solo 5007 Okay, I have an explanation for this. You see, way back when, DL was still in its formative years. Back then, they *WERE* Drow, but then it was realized the drow didn't exist on Krynn, so they just said "Erm, we meant dark elves." Drow do not exist, and if they did, no one on Krynn would know what they were. DISCLAIMER: This is only a theory, I didn't ask Weis and Hickman about it. Fair enough, but I just like to think that perhaps MagicUser's with all their knowledge know of other worlds besides Krynn, and as such, that they know that in other worlds, there are such creatures as Drow Elves. And from my standpoint, I like to think that the Drow Elf was undergoing whatever test he was doing, and thru fate and the power of magic, somehow found himself pit against Raistlin. I am sure the Drow had no idea what or who he was up against or anything to do with Fistandantilus (when you consider what Fistandantilus did, it seems more feasible too).
#24 zombiegleemax Jan 27, 2004 22:50:32	Read the Soulforge, and you'll see that they are obviosly not drow, and even if they somehow where, they would have just been made up as a part of his Test because they don't just go *Hey, look, a human! LEt's kill him!", they make a deal with Raistlin to try and steal some spellbooks. And, Fistandantilus made his deal with Raistlin because he wanted a way to live, and not be a spectre, so he told Raistlin that if he would give him his soul(okay, not really, but you know what I mean), then he would help him kill the dark elves, which he does. NOTE: Even if you do not believe the Soulforge, I believe it was an established fat that they all worked together to steal spellbooks, which a drow would not do. Also, if a drow was taking a Test, then I don't think he would get to take two or three buddies with him, which is what happens in his Test.
#25 dragontooth Jan 27, 2004 23:27:00	Originally posted by ferratus I don't know, when you toss lyncanthropes into the mix that are affected by the Black Moon, Nuitari loses his mystique as the master of black magic alone. That is all he is supposed to care about. Sure you can argue that lyncanthropy is a magical curse, but so is vampirism or magically spawned races such as draconians. It just seems like he becomes responsible for too much when his primary focus should be on "rose petals and death". Flame me if I'm wrong. But moons on other campaigne settings aren't gods/goddess. Aren't magical in nature, but Lyncanthropes still get affected by the phases of the moon. Now why can't that be good enough reason for Lyncanthropes to be affected by the black moon? I know that Nuitari wouldn't want anything to do with them. Now by my argument in itself brings up that if one moon affects a Lyncanthropes why shouldn't all three moons do it? Well my main reason is that by having the moon that matches the general alignment of the Lyncanthropes would make it easier on the DM to add them to the world of Krynn. (side note)Me personally would keep them out of Krynn to stay with the flavor of Krynn. Just trying to give advice.
#26 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 8:47:29	The WereWolves in my campaign are going to be modeled after the BLACK SPIRAL DANCER werewolves from the white wolf game WEREWOLF:THE APOCALYPSE, which was a fun game to play. By that, they are a race, not diseased ridden, but yes, they draw some of their rage from the Black Moon.
#27 verenal Jan 28, 2004 12:43:34	Aren't there weresometings in Riverwind the plainsman? In the beginning IIRC. [edit]because my grammar sucks.[/edit]
#28 zombiegleemax Jan 29, 2004 9:39:47	Originally posted by DmJoeSolarte Fair enough, but I just like to think that perhaps MagicUser's with all their knowledge know of other worlds besides Krynn, and as such, that they know that in other worlds, there are such creatures as Drow Elves. And from my standpoint, I like to think that the Drow Elf was undergoing whatever test he was doing, and thru fate and the power of magic, somehow found himself pit against Raistlin. I am sure the Drow had no idea what or who he was up against or anything to do with Fistandantilus (when you consider what Fistandantilus did, it seems more feasible too). Well, I agree with you on the first part. I'm sure many wizards, sorcerers, and clerics know that there are other worlds and planes, and maybe a few might have even laid eyes on a drow. But I don't believe true drow were involved in the Test simply because Raistlin would never have been able to defeat them if they really had been drow. Three chaotic evil spell-resistant elf mages + one neutral human mageling = one dead human mageling. :D
#29 zombiegleemax Jan 29, 2004 20:27:18	Originally posted by Loralon Well, I agree with you on the first part. I'm sure many wizards, sorcerers, and clerics know that there are other worlds and planes, and maybe a few might have even laid eyes on a drow. But I don't believe true drow were involved in the Test simply because Raistlin would never have been able to defeat them if they really had been drow. Three chaotic evil spell-resistant elf mages + one neutral human mageling = one dead human mageling. :D I disagree on the latter part. If the neutral human mageling was prodigiously talented and was being aided by one of the most powerfull wizards to have ever lived in Fistandantillis, I think that would be enough to overcome that.