Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Dragonhelm Jan 24, 2004 21:05:42	I wanted to start a new topic, as Terry said something I wanted to expand upon. Originally posted by ferratus It seems whenever anyone wants to do something original with kender, the first thing they want to do is to not make them kender.
#2 ferratus Jan 25, 2004 1:38:25	Originally posted by Dragonhelm The biggest problem with kender is that there are too many "Tas clones" out there. You see this especially in the novels. Yeah, see we always hear about what kender "do" rather than what kender are. Thus whenever there is a discussion about kender I hear things like "kender don't cast magic" or "kender do pick pockets to handle interesting objects". It is the assertion of how kender act which creates "Tas clones" and it is the belief that all kender must act a certain way that spawns all these variant kender races. "Such kender found their courage and curiosity destroyed, as well as their joy in life. Afflicted kender suddenly became like people..." This is indeed example 1. I've always heard that afflicted kender act paranoid and are always looking to find a safe refuge. Why try to dictate how the kender deals with his post traumatic stress disorder? Why can't kender become apathetic and depressed, figuring that life is too unbearable to put in the effort? What about a bloodlust that arises in afflicted kender which makes them want to band together and hack apart red dragons? All you would have to say is that, "Due to razing of Kendermore by Malystyx many kender have developed post-traumatic stress and have permanent psychological scars. Many kender have been reported as being anxious, depressed, emotionally withdrawn, or simmering with barely contained anger, but the exact way the kender was affected is as individual as the kender himself. What about a kender barbarian raised by wolves? That doesn't make sense as to why he should stealthily pick the pockets for interesting objects like streetwise kender. Why wouldn't he just take it by force or (heavens forbid) just ask for it? Maybe a kender craftsman gets so interested in a object that he makes a duplicate rather than stealing it. Maybe a kender mage offers to study its magical auras and satisfies his curiousity to both his, and his fellow party member's advantage. I could go on forever. Personally, I think the kender nightstalker is the best example in a printed product I've seen on how to create a different sort of kender. The kender still has some of the typical kender traits, but they're focused on the undead. The way it is presented, you can have a kender with kender traits, yet one that is by far not the norm. See, that is exactly the way kender should be handled. Have class and alignment further flesh out the character, built upon the racial archetype of innocence, curiousity and fearlessness. What about a Lawful Good kender for example? Sure, you may bungle the presentation of a kender and come across as a serious honor-bound human. However, of you can't figure out how to stay true to the kender spirit in this exercise, you probably can't play a traditional 2e kender very well anyway.
#3 Nived Jan 25, 2004 2:08:25	Why not a artistic Kender that draws what catches his eye rather than picking it up and putting it in a pocket? He'll have several bags full of stetchbooks with halfdrawn objects because of his short attention span. Or a kender who isn't afflicted or anything but realizes he has a tendancy to pick things up, and he knows its not 'right'. He's honestly annoyed with himself when he reaches in his pocket and finds things he doesn't remember putting in there and honestly tries not to be a klepto. A ranger or druid Kender who could care less about objects wrought by sentient beings... but likes to keep interesting leaves, branches, or rocks he happens across. Things of nature. It seems to me people just don't want to make anything other than a Kender Rogue... oh my bad 'handler'. People become slaves to stereotypes... How many times have I seen the Dwarven axe fighter, the Elven Ranger (you see it more often than the Elven 'favored' class). Some people can only imagine in black and white, you either have the stereotype or the anti-stereotype... the half-orc Paladin, or the Dwarven Wizard. Stereotype or anti-stereotype... Kender Handler, or Afflicted Kender. There are plenty shades of grey... you just have to get inventive.
#4 Dragonhelm Jan 25, 2004 9:18:08	Excellent points, all. I have to agree with Ferratus' assessment that the kender of Kendermore would handle that trauma in different ways, rather than becoming the "anti-stereotype". Another one of my favorite kender is Pentrian the Rabbit from Flint's Axe. Pentrian is in his mid-40's, and has passed the age for wanderlust. I thought this was very cool, since most adventuring kender are in wanderlust. He's also LG in alignment, so that presents an interesting twist. It's true that we tend to think of races in stereotypes. Jasper Fireforge was a nice change from pace, as he wasn't your typical dwarven fighter. A cleric-turned-mystic was a nice touch. Another one I didn't care for at first was the thinker gnome. In Taladas, they're the Gnomoi, and presented as an anti-stereotype. This concept was adopted in SAGA for the thinker gnome. I like how the DLCS goes back to the Mad Gnome setup found in Dragonlance Adventures. The original concept had Mad Gnomes as being non-Krynnish gnomes who made things simple that actually worked! They must be mad! NOTE: DLA had notes here and there that allowed one to take their character from another world and bring them to Krynn. Rather than having this anti-stereotype as the norm, the DLCS presents the Mad Gnome as the "exception to the rule". I know, that's a thin line dividing the two concepts. An anti-stereotype in my mind is taking a stereotype and making the opposite of it a stereotype of its own. The "exception to the rule" refers to those one-in-a-million characters that go against the stereotypical grain. This would be like comparing the afflicted kender as a race to Drizzt Do'Urden.
#5 cam_banks Jan 25, 2004 10:38:55	I like afflicted kender. I'm in the minority, I think, but they are more interesting to me. I like the notion of hard-edged, grim, and wary survivors scattered to the four winds against the odds. I'm more in favor of kender filling this niche than elves, for example. My Dragonlance campaign has an afflicted half-kender in it, who was visited by Habbakuk to become his chosen one. It's a boring racial write up mechanically (lots of skill bonuses and nothing much else) but the player's getting a good handle on it. Cheers, Cam
#6 ferratus Jan 25, 2004 21:16:59	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Another one I didn't care for at first was the thinker gnome. In Taladas, they're the Gnomoi, and presented as an anti-stereotype. This concept was adopted in SAGA for the thinker gnome. Actually it is a little different in this case. The Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium basically stated that 1% of krynnish gnomes were mad. In a city of 50,000 (like Mt. Nevermind) we've got about 500 mad gnomes. Enough for a nice ruling caste. Instead of casting the mad gnomes out, the minoi of Taladas accepted their leadership. The Minoi would provide the rush of inpiration, while the gnomoi would oversee and edit the final design. Without the minoi the gnomoi would only build technologically boring and static inventions. Without the gnomoi, the minoi wouldn't be able to stop everything from blowing up. Personally, I'd just make "Mad Gnome" a prestige class. I wouldn't have the patience for a long series of tables dealing with building a useless invention that might just blow up and damage the party anyway. There is a reason why the majority of the inhabitants of Krynn stay away from gnomes. It is a lot to ask for a DM to ask his players to ignore good solid common sense. Rather than having this anti-stereotype as the norm, the DLCS presents the Mad Gnome as the "exception to the rule". I know, that's a thin line dividing the two concepts. An anti-stereotype in my mind is taking a stereotype and making the opposite of it a stereotype of its own. The "exception to the rule" refers to those one-in-a-million characters that go against the stereotypical grain. This would be like comparing the afflicted kender as a race to Drizzt Do'Urden. I don't think that is a really a difference. Either way they are still a playable character option, and frankly people are going to play them because they like to imagine that they have a "unique character". I say just accept the fact that some people are going to play the anti-stereotype and just move on to making suggestions on how the race's personality can be enhanced with alignment and class.
#7 true_blue Jan 26, 2004 2:20:17	I personally think that the 1% is not supposed to be exactly 1 out of every 100. I think its supposed to just show people that it is "very rare". ferratus, I've seen you in other threads talk about the 1% and with statistics and they all do make sense, but i think you take the numbers a little bit too literal. You can say out of 50,000, there would be 500 if the percent was exactly 1%. But, I personally believe they just picked the smallest whole percent, instead of getting into the .01%'s and stuff like that. Just food for thought, not exactly sure, just my opinion.
#8 ferratus Jan 26, 2004 2:42:01	Originally posted by True_Blue I personally think that the 1% is not supposed to be exactly 1 out of every 100. I think its supposed to just show people that it is "very rare". ferratus, I've seen you in other threads talk about the 1% and with statistics and they all do make sense, but i think you take the numbers a little bit too literal. I'll take that criticism, because I do love my hard numbers. Whenever I need to take a pre-existing idea and expand upon it (which is what campaign settings are all about) I can logically infer things from them. For example, how many soldiers can be mustered from the city? How about labourers for a momument? How easily can I unload the treasures I gained from the dragon's lair in this town? Whenever I need my new ideas to fit nicely with the old ideas, hard numbers are there to help me out. Regardless about how many mad gnomes there are in gnomish society, it is still a different way of handling them in Taladas. In Ansalon Gnomes have a history of casting their mad gnomes out. In Taladas, they took pity on their poor cousins and stuck them with the boring committee work. ;)
#9 zombiegleemax Jan 26, 2004 5:13:05	In order to think of Kenders in their variety, you first have to know what they all have in common; what makes a kender a kender? Or a dwarf a dwarf, for that matter. It's not the stats; those are the average effect of having lived as a kender for a while (except the attribute adjustments, especially the physical stats), true? There has to be a reason behind those stats.
#10 true_blue Jan 28, 2004 0:42:57	If you have a stereotype, there will always be the complete opposite. Personally i don't think you could get rid of the sterotypes in D&D and Dragonlance, its what differentiates other races from humans. I like the fact that certainr aces have little quirks, the only thing you need to remember is that there *are* exceptions to the rule. I don't want the write-up of eachr aces personalities being "Same as human, basically can be anything". I like how different races have different quirks. And as I said before, there will always be people who willw ant to play the opposite.
#11 Dragonhelm Jan 28, 2004 9:49:08	Originally posted by Cam Banks I like afflicted kender. I'm in the minority, I think, but they are more interesting to me. I like the notion of hard-edged, grim, and wary survivors scattered to the four winds against the odds. I'm more in favor of kender filling this niche than elves, for example. Does one need an anti-stereotype in order to fill this role, or could this have been done with a true kender?
#12 cam_banks Jan 28, 2004 10:13:12	Originally posted by Dragonhelm Does one need an anti-stereotype in order to fill this role, or could this have been done with a true kender? I seriously doubt it. Having a true kender be hard-edged, grim and wary would be like having a minotaur file his horns off, grab a trenchcoat and a big stone hand, and call himself Bullboy. Cheers, Cam
#13 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 16:09:55	Originally posted by Cam Banks I seriously doubt it. Having a true kender be hard-edged, grim and wary would be like having a minotaur file his horns off, grab a trenchcoat and a big stone hand, and call himself Bullboy. Cheers, Cam At least we wouldn't get a movie out of it. ;)
#14 cam_banks Jan 28, 2004 18:53:46	Originally posted by Andre La Roche At least we wouldn't get a movie out of it. ;) We can't agree about everything, Mr Rock, but we can agree that Britney and Pink look better in gladiator armor than minotaurs. Cheers, Cam
#15 zombiegleemax Jan 28, 2004 19:47:42	Originally posted by Cam Banks We can't agree about everything, Mr Rock, but we can agree that Britney and Pink look better in gladiator armor than minotaurs. Cheers, Cam And how, Mr. Banks!